Left and right clash in the US?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:54 am

YouTube - Amazing video of Wisconsin protests

Well well well, left wing revolt in the states?

OK I look at mochael moore, as I'm sure you appreciate this is not mainstream news outside the states at the moment. Interesting the difference in tone.

How come the democratic reps need to flee why not just stay at home and not turn up? Is it a criminal offence to not turn up or something?

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:52 am

You can't take the official vote without one Democrat present-so, the Republicans can bypass this today-if they want to try it-as a rider on another bill. Then no Democrats need to attend.

Looks pretty bad for the Democrats, running off not to take a vote on this, whatever their position is. But then, the unions are very vocal in this issue, getting the highest media coverage. They had interviews from outlying cities, and they were not as supportive of the unions as the major media is presenting it.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:56 am

The Republicans don't look lily white themselves, they actually attempted to send cops out of state to "escort" these people back. I suspect with strong arms like this, those Dems felt safer leaving the area as well.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:58 am

Yes, thats true Snooze. As a little old voter, I would be mad if from there, and representatives didn't show up to do their job. Or strong arms tactics of any kind.

I wonder if the teachers went back to school, they were told to. Now me, I was told to stay home, because of a snow day.

Scrat · Post by **Scrat** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:04 am

The Dems left because they could have been intimidated by the police sent for them. As for these unions working in government I have mixed feelings. Here in Washington state their pay and benefits far outstrip what the private sector sees. I saw an interview from one of the members a few days ago saying that she can't live on what they're offering. Maybe if she got rid of the 2 Audis and the Mercedes and the 700k home she could make ends meet? There's a few that live close to me, they don't drive anything older than 2 years and they aren't driving Kias.

I'm for Unions but there's a point when things get ridiculous. Just look up Waste on the Water, it's about the ferry system in Puget Sound. It boggles the mind. The Unions here run the government. They just started the new tunnel project, it will be the most expensive option they could have chosen, 3.5 billion dollars as of today but considering the unknowns of the project and the contractors track records it will be 6 to 10 billion when finished, if not more. All at a time when education, childcare, health for the elderly and the poor is being gutted in the budget. I'm glad I have a 4x4 because the roads are getting worse by the day. They're patching patches now.

I say get the Unions under control.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:52 pm

I don't know the ins and outs of it so far as the states is concerned so I can't really comment on it. We have similar issues here but people are increasingly pissed off facing cuts because of a situation they had no part in creating while those who caused it suffer no consequences. What will probably happen here is the pension benefits etc will be altered for newer teachers and civil servants, they will also also be asked to pay more in to the schemes. If they tried such draconian tactics here here there would be uproar and riots on the streets. The french get really pissed off about such things.

French Riots Intensify - Fox News Video - FoxNews.com

You lot are quite tame really.

It's monetarism, reagan/thatcher and their service based economy - servicing what? you need an industrial and agricultural base to justify the service sector in the first place. You've done the same as us - all the jobs have gone abroad to keep down costs without regard to the long term consequences and no investment in new industries.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:09 pm

I think we need to create a tax payer union and quit funding these idiots that think they are entitled to raises when we are all seeing our own incomes cut.

Let them strike. Fire their asses permanently and post the jobs. See how fast they are filled. See how many folks we can get off of public assistance and into these jobs.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:24 am

flopstock;1354487 wrote: I think we need to create a tax payer union and quit funding these idiots that think they are entitled to raises when we are all seeing our own incomes cut.

Let them strike. Fire their asses permanently and post the jobs. See how fast they are filled. See how many folks we can get off of public assistance and into these jobs.

Would you exclude public sector tax payers from your union? Why is it so many people think corporations funding political parties and influencing legislation to their benefit is acceptable but when workers try the same it is undemocratic? You need a balance of power between the two.

YouTube - Kuttner Calls Wisconsin Worker Issues `Class Warfare'

Only in america do you get tax payers movements calling for lower taxes for the rich and no social reform. At least that is the impression I have of what the tea party stand for. If you lower taxes for the wealthy and then tell ordinary people they have to tighten their belts no wonder people get annoyed.

Surely the next election will see a new governer and all the policies reversed anyway?

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:18 am

gmc;1354503 wrote: Would you exclude public sector tax payers from your union? Why is it so many people think corporations funding political parties and influencing legislation to their benefit is acceptable but when workers try the same it is undemocratic? You need a balance of power between the two.

YouTube - Kuttner Calls Wisconsin Worker Issues `Class Warfare'

Only in america do you get tax payers movements calling for lower taxes for the rich and no social reform. At least that is the impression I have of what the tea party stand for. If you lower taxes for the wealthy and then tell ordinary people they have to tighten their belts no wonder people get annoyed.

Surely the next election will see a new governer and all the policies reversed anyway?

Unions haven't just run their course, they've ruined the job market in america. They are no longer needed. There are laws in place to protect workers rights. and lawyers aplenty, willing to fight the issues.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:29 am

flopstock;1354506 wrote: Unions haven't just run their course, they've ruined the job market in america. They are no longer needed. There are laws in place to protect workers rights. and lawyers aplenty, willing to fight the issues.

How did you get those laws? bet it wasn't without a struggle. The noton that employers somehow can be trusted to do the decent thing is one I find incredible.

YouTube - Your Gravy Train is Over-Tea Party Clashes with Wisconsin Unions - They Are Supporting Gov.

I find this kind of report incredible. You are almost bankrupt because of expensive foreign wars and irresponsible financial institutions who have been bailed out by the taxpayer so how come people aren't angry at them?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:45 pm

flopstock;1354506 wrote: Unions haven't just run their course, they've ruined the job market in america. They are no longer needed. There are laws in place to protect workers rights. and lawyers aplenty, willing to fight the issues.

Interesting foreign take on the issue

US unions clawless housecats to EU's labor tiger — RT

Ever so slightly biased but perhaps no more so than the fox news link I posted earlier - incidentally I have only ever fox news on you tube.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:06 pm

Unions have ruined the job market in the US? How about big business outsourcing to foreign countries where they'll do the same work for pennies? And I'm not bragging when I say that most unemployed, benefits-collecting people couldn't do mine or most of the people in my work place's jobs without a sh*tload of training. Yeah, I'm a federal employee that's being accused of stealing food out of American children's mouths with my high paid job that nobody wanted not all that long ago because it didn't actually pay enough at the time. You know what scalds my butt are people moaning about their fellow citizens having jobs when they don't... they want us to be unemployed as well? I pay plenty of taxes that support the programs these people are utilizing... what happens if/when all these government employee leeches get laid off and join all the other unemployed, explain how that helps the freaking economy. Instead of placing the blame on big business and the politicians that support and endorse them, the middle class is eating each other alive.

End of days, people. We're a pestilence on this planet anyway.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:58 am

SnoozeAgain;1354565 wrote: Unions have ruined the job market in the US? How about big business outsourcing to foreign countries where they'll do the same work for pennies? And I'm not bragging when I say that most unemployed, benefits-collecting people couldn't do mine or most of the people in my work place's jobs without a sh*tload of training. Yeah, I'm a federal employee that's being accused of stealing food out of American children's mouths with my high paid job that nobody wanted not all that long ago because it didn't actually pay enough at the time. You know what scalds my butt are people moaning about their fellow citizens having jobs when they don't... they want us to be unemployed as well? I pay plenty of taxes that support the programs these people are utilizing... what happens if/when all these government employee leeches get laid off and join all the other unemployed, explain how that helps the freaking economy. Instead of placing the blame on big business and the politicians that support and endorse them, the middle class is eating each other alive.

End of days, people. We're a pestilence on this planet anyway.

I don't know of one person that complains about the need for government jobs. The complaint is that you are so buried in your own greed and sense of entitlement, that you can't imagine having to sacrifice like the rest of us. You are supposed to be one of us, after all. Start funding your own pensions like the rest of us have had to in the last ten years. Start contributing your fair share to your health benefits like the rest of us have had to. Understand that as the group of unemployed and underemployed rises in the country, you have to be a total jackass to come to that group and demand more.

There are plently of qualified and talented folks out there looking for jobs right now. And they'd be more than happy to be trained.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:11 am

How come you're not annoyed at the greed and sense of entitlement of bankers who cause a financial crisis, get bailed out by the tax payer and still pay bonuses to themselves and increase salaries? How many other bankrupt companies in the states are doing that? It's a brilliant tactic, never mind what we're doing look at all these greedy public employees and welfare layabouts they're why the country is in a mess.

We have problems with our public sector that need to be addressed but any government trying such draconian tactics would have rioters out on the streets.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:15 pm

flopstock;1354506 wrote: Unions haven't just run their course, they've ruined the job market in america. They are no longer needed. There are laws in place to protect workers rights. and lawyers aplenty, willing to fight the issues.I read an interesting analogy on Al jazeera the other day.

A CEO, Tea Party member and Union member sit at a table with twelve cookies sitting on it; the CEO takes eleven cookies and says the the Tea Party member "keep an eye on that union guy, he wants your cookie".

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:01 am

Ahso!;1355762 wrote: I read an interesting analogy on Al jazeera the other day.

A CEO, Tea Party member and Union member sit at a table with twelve cookies sitting on it; the CEO takes eleven cookies and says the the Tea Party member "keep an eye on that union guy, he wants your cookie".

Sadly that seems a bit close to the truth.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:18 am

gmc;1354639 wrote: How come you're not annoyed at the greed and sense of entitlement of bankers who cause a financial crisis, get bailed out by the tax payer and still pay bonuses to themselves and increase salaries? How many other bankrupt companies in the states are doing that? It's a brilliant tactic, never mind what we're doing look at all these greedy public employees and welfare layabouts they're why the country is in a mess.

We have problems with our public sector that need to be addressed but any government trying such draconian tactics would have rioters out on the streets.

I don't know of anyone in their right mind who wasn't just as pissed at the bailouts. Folks were voted in and out of office based on those actions. Now, had those politicians been unionized, we'd have had to go through a grievence process in faint hope of getting rid of them.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:52 am

If all the public sector workers went on strike and all the politicians went on strike - whose absence would cause the most problem?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:29 pm

flopstock;1355894 wrote: I don't know of anyone in their right mind who wasn't just as pissed at the bailouts. Folks were voted in and out of office based on those actions. Now, had those politicians been unionized, we'd have had to go through a grievence process in faint hope of getting rid of them.

Then it's a damn'd good job that politicians are elected rather than employed and all the unionising they might do gives them no security of tenure.

If, on the other hand, you employ a guy to do a job and give him a contract of employment then it would be perfectly reasonable to have to show just cause to terminate that contract.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:31 pm

flopstock;1355894 wrote: I don't know of anyone in their right mind who wasn't just as pissed at the bailouts. Folks were voted in and out of office based on those actions. Now, had those politicians been unionized, we'd have had to go through a grievence process in faint hope of getting rid of them.

When it comes to politics is the grievance procedure and the election not one and the same?

Contracts are binding both ways, you can't just unilaterally decide to abrogate them without there being consequences, you're not supposed to be an elected dictatorship.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:02 pm

Bryn Mawr;1356120 wrote: Then it's a damn'd good job that politicians are elected rather than employed and all the unionising they might do gives them no security of tenure.

If, on the other hand, you employ a guy to do a job and give him a contract of employment then it would be perfectly reasonable to have to show just cause to terminate that contract.

My ex was union. If something needed doing quickly and they grabbed someone handy to do it, that was fine..... but they had to pay both the guy they grabbed and the guy who should have been called in to do it, because he had the senority. Nothing to do with safety and all to do with union arm twisting years ago, gaining consessions that eventually forced his company to move elsewhere.

The union cause is no longer a just cause, IMO

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:21 pm

flopstock;1356174 wrote: My ex was union. If something needed doing quickly and they grabbed someone handy to do it, that was fine..... but they had to pay both the guy they grabbed and the guy who should have been called in to do it, because he had the senority. Nothing to do with safety and all to do with union arm twisting years ago, gaining consessions that eventually forced his company to move elsewhere.

The union cause is no longer a just cause, IMO

It's a balance, as with all things - stupidities like that do not mean that the Unions should be disparaged but they do need to be reined in. The situation without them would be equally bad with less likelihood of redress.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:41 am

Seems the governer thinks he is above the law of the land.

Wis. Republicans Publish Anti-Union Law -- In Apparent Defiance Of Court Order | TPMDC

and not just him

Rachel Maddow Show

Rachel Maddow Show

That the union movement is open to abuse doesn't mean not having them at all is any better. There are always those that don't want the great unwashed having a say in government, that anyone who is poor or niot quite like them is somehow less worthy.

You do need a balance between the two sides any rights you have have not been given to you but taken from those who would want things all their own way. There are fascist policies - right wing any way you look at it.