OpenMind;1348948 wrote: I wish I had something to add here. However, I find that whatever I have to add would just be another drop in the ocean. It is scary because there is no argument here. Just lots of people saying, "This is how it is and you're wrong" [my quote.]
This occurs in scientific circles too until a theory is proven as fundamental fact. But, with science, there is usually a lot of money hanging on a new theory.
Religious concepts, however, can only be proven to a certain extent. Does God exist? Well, it depends on your definition of God. And, if you have defined God, can you prove your definition.
I find that religious discussions are childishly emotive and rarely make any progress towards any understanding of a belief. In my view, without a basis for rational discussion, we can only end up with a repetition of the same old argument.
At the end of the day, there is no proof for or against the existence of a deity. So, why can't we just respect each others' views.
The proof of the pudding in Knowing God is to invite Jeus into your life with all your heart.In this way you will know for yourself the Truth and it will set you free.
God's gift is for all mankind.
Consider the few Christians that began the early Chruch.
I think about the odds stacked against the 120 believers right after Christ's ascension in the early church. They were hemmed in by two mountains on either side – one the one side, they faced the might of the Roman Empire, who insisted that “Caesar is Lord”, on the other side they were hemmed in by the intransigence of the Jews who were determined to stop the embryonic Jesus movement. Yet the 120 flattened both mountains, and within a few hundred years, Christianity had taken over the known world. How? This was a great Miracle
The power of the Holy Spirit came on them. And with this supernatural power within them, they did the impossible. That same power can be within you.
Bless you
Creationism?
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
OpenMind;1348948 wrote: I wish I had something to add here. However, I find that whatever I have to add would just be another drop in the ocean. It is scary because there is no argument here. Just lots of people saying, "This is how it is and you're wrong" [my quote.]
This occurs in scientific circles too until a theory is proven as fundamental fact. But, with science, there is usually a lot of money hanging on a new theory.
Religious concepts, however, can only be proven to a certain extent. Does God exist? Well, it depends on your definition of God. And, if you have defined God, can you prove your definition.
I find that religious discussions are childishly emotive and rarely make any progress towards any understanding of a belief. In my view, without a basis for rational discussion, we can only end up with a repetition of the same old argument.
At the end of the day, there is no proof for or against the existence of a deity. So, why can't we just respect each others' views.
The proof of the pudding in Knowing God is to invite Jesus into your life with all your heart.In this way you will know for yourself the Truth and it will set you free.
God's gift is for all mankind.
Consider the few Christians that began the early Church.
I think about the odds stacked against the 120 believers right after Christ's ascension in the early church. They were hemmed in by two mountains on either side – one the one side, they faced the might of the Roman Empire, who insisted that “Caesar is Lordâ€, on the other side they were hemmed in by the intransigence of the Jews who were determined to stop the embryonic Jesus movement. Yet the 120 flattened both mountains, and within a few hundred years, Christianity had taken over the known world. How? This was a great Miracle
The power of the Holy Spirit came on them. And with this supernatural power within them, they did the impossible. That same power can be within you.
Bless you
This occurs in scientific circles too until a theory is proven as fundamental fact. But, with science, there is usually a lot of money hanging on a new theory.
Religious concepts, however, can only be proven to a certain extent. Does God exist? Well, it depends on your definition of God. And, if you have defined God, can you prove your definition.
I find that religious discussions are childishly emotive and rarely make any progress towards any understanding of a belief. In my view, without a basis for rational discussion, we can only end up with a repetition of the same old argument.
At the end of the day, there is no proof for or against the existence of a deity. So, why can't we just respect each others' views.
The proof of the pudding in Knowing God is to invite Jesus into your life with all your heart.In this way you will know for yourself the Truth and it will set you free.
God's gift is for all mankind.
Consider the few Christians that began the early Church.
I think about the odds stacked against the 120 believers right after Christ's ascension in the early church. They were hemmed in by two mountains on either side – one the one side, they faced the might of the Roman Empire, who insisted that “Caesar is Lordâ€, on the other side they were hemmed in by the intransigence of the Jews who were determined to stop the embryonic Jesus movement. Yet the 120 flattened both mountains, and within a few hundred years, Christianity had taken over the known world. How? This was a great Miracle
The power of the Holy Spirit came on them. And with this supernatural power within them, they did the impossible. That same power can be within you.
Bless you
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker
Indeed I agree and repeat a relationship with God is no longer - since the time of Jesus on earth - a religion except for those who do not know in depth, the words of GOD
The Bible prophecised that a false religion would grow for a large part of the world between 3 and 2 thousand years ago and the muslim religion absolutely fits the bill and that this will show the beginning of the end times.
It's exactly that kind of nonsensical belief that is the problem.
Many atrocities have also been done by secular powers such as China, Russia and Hitlers germany for example, pol pot, idi amin, the hutu's and tutsi's and and plenty more spring to mind.
Very true and congratulations for not making the ludicrous assertion it was because they were atheists. If you tot up the atrocities caused by religion though they are horrific indeed. Do you really think the holocaust, for example, would have happened without 2,000 years of anti-semitism on the part of the catholic church? The first ghetto was created by a pope and it was a pope that insisted they wear a yellow star. Hitler just followed tradition.
posted by openmind
At the end of the day, there is no proof for or against the existence of a deity. So, why can't we just respect each others' views.
Because they have faith everybody else is wrong. You ask a logical question of people who must suspend logic and reason to keep the faith. What do you do with people who will not agree to just live and let live.
Indeed I agree and repeat a relationship with God is no longer - since the time of Jesus on earth - a religion except for those who do not know in depth, the words of GOD
The Bible prophecised that a false religion would grow for a large part of the world between 3 and 2 thousand years ago and the muslim religion absolutely fits the bill and that this will show the beginning of the end times.
It's exactly that kind of nonsensical belief that is the problem.
Many atrocities have also been done by secular powers such as China, Russia and Hitlers germany for example, pol pot, idi amin, the hutu's and tutsi's and and plenty more spring to mind.
Very true and congratulations for not making the ludicrous assertion it was because they were atheists. If you tot up the atrocities caused by religion though they are horrific indeed. Do you really think the holocaust, for example, would have happened without 2,000 years of anti-semitism on the part of the catholic church? The first ghetto was created by a pope and it was a pope that insisted they wear a yellow star. Hitler just followed tradition.
posted by openmind
At the end of the day, there is no proof for or against the existence of a deity. So, why can't we just respect each others' views.
Because they have faith everybody else is wrong. You ask a logical question of people who must suspend logic and reason to keep the faith. What do you do with people who will not agree to just live and let live.
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
yaaarrrgg;1348957 wrote: This is a misunderstanding of science. The way science works is very much like a process of evolution. You take several theories, subject them to stress, and pick the strongest explanation. The "science" that remains is just the best theory that explains the fossil record and similarities between animals.
*** Indeed, the science which remains is the bst hypotheses for the similarities but who wrote the DNA code? an eqally vaid explanation os that we share similarities in genes and structures with otherlife forms because theywere produced by the same Author
It seems you believe the current scientific models of the origin of life are incompatible with your religious beliefs, rather than adding to your religious beliefs.
There are only small pockets of Science which I have yet to be convinced about regardless of my Faith. These are not incompatable with the idea of Creation at all which is the subject of this thread.
Do you really believe there is no good reason for your existance?
God bless you
*** Indeed, the science which remains is the bst hypotheses for the similarities but who wrote the DNA code? an eqally vaid explanation os that we share similarities in genes and structures with otherlife forms because theywere produced by the same Author
It seems you believe the current scientific models of the origin of life are incompatible with your religious beliefs, rather than adding to your religious beliefs.
There are only small pockets of Science which I have yet to be convinced about regardless of my Faith. These are not incompatable with the idea of Creation at all which is the subject of this thread.
Do you really believe there is no good reason for your existance?
God bless you
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
gmc;1348987 wrote: freethinkingthuthseeker
It's exactly that kind of nonsensical belief that is the problem.
***I note merely that you have not compared the prophecies in the Bible with world history
Very true and congratulations for not making the ludicrous assertion it was because they were atheists. If you tot up the atrocities caused by religion though they are horrific indeed. Do you really think the holocaust, for example, would have happened without 2,000 years of anti-semitism on the part of the catholic church? The first ghetto was created by a pope and it was a pope that insisted they wear a yellow star. Hitler just followed tradition.
***Organized religion is never a good thing but I am not a member of the Catholic Church and just as we cannot blame civilians for the actions of their government in atrocities, the same applies to the real church which is the majority of the members of that Body below the upper hierarchy
posted by openmind
Because they have faith everybody else is wrong. You ask a logical question of people who must suspend logic and reason to keep the faith. What do you do with people who will not agree to just live and let live.
Are you referring to me here?
How about your take on DNA?
British philosopher, Dr. Antony Flew, has been a leading spokesperson for atheism, actively involved in debate after debate. However, scientific discoveries within the last 30 years brought him to a conclusion he could not avoid. In a video interview in December 2004 he stated, "Super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature." Prominent in his conclusion were the discoveries of DNA. Here's why.
DNA in our cells is very similar to an intricate computer program. Consider computers, you see that a computer program is made up of a series of ones and zeros (called binary code). The sequencing and ordering of these ones and zeros is what makes the computer program work properly.
In the same way, DNA is made up of four chemicals, abbreviated as letters A, T, G, and C. Much like the ones and zeros, these letters are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. The order in which they are arranged instructs the cell's actions.
What is amazing is that within the tiny space in every cell in your body, this code is three billion letters long!!
To grasp the amount of DNA information in one cell, "a live reading of that code at a rate of three letters per second would take thirty-one years, even if reading continued day and night."
It has been determined that 99.9% of your DNA is similar to everyone's genetic makeup. What is uniquely you comes in the fractional difference in how those three billion letters are sequenced in your cells.
The U.S. government is able to identify everyone in our country by the arrangement of a nine-digit social security number. Yet, inside every cell in you is a three-billion-lettered DNA structure that belongs only to you. This code identifies you and continually instructs your cells' behaviour.
Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."
Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it.
Just as former atheist Dr. Antony Flew questioned, it is legitimate to ask oneself regarding this three billion letter code instructing the cell...who wrote this script? Who placed this working code, inside the cell?
It's like walking along the beach and you see in the sand, "Mike loves Michelle." You know the waves rolling up on the beach didn't form that--a person wrote that. It is a precise message. It is clear communication. In the same way, the DNA structure is a complex, three-billion-lettered script, informing and directing the cell's process.
How can one explain this sophisticated messaging, coding, residing in our cells?
In June 26, 2000, President Clinton congratulated those who completed the human genome sequencing. President Clinton said, "Today we are learning the language in which God created life. We are gaining ever more awe for the complexity, the beauty, the wonder of God's most divine and sacred gift." Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, followed Clinton to the podium stating, "It is humbling for me and awe inspiring to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God."
When looking at the DNA structure within the human body, we cannot escape the presence of intelligent (incredibly intelligent) design.
According to the Bible (which is itself incredibly complex) God is not only the Author of our existence, but he is the Relationship that makes our existence meaningful. All the intangibles in life that we crave...enough strength for any situation, joy, wisdom, and knowing we are loved...God alone gives these to us as we listen to him and trust him. He is our greatest, reliable guide in life. Just as he has engineered DNA to instruct the cell, he offers to instruct us to make our lives function well, for his glory and for our sake, because he loves us.
God Bless you
It's exactly that kind of nonsensical belief that is the problem.
***I note merely that you have not compared the prophecies in the Bible with world history
Very true and congratulations for not making the ludicrous assertion it was because they were atheists. If you tot up the atrocities caused by religion though they are horrific indeed. Do you really think the holocaust, for example, would have happened without 2,000 years of anti-semitism on the part of the catholic church? The first ghetto was created by a pope and it was a pope that insisted they wear a yellow star. Hitler just followed tradition.
***Organized religion is never a good thing but I am not a member of the Catholic Church and just as we cannot blame civilians for the actions of their government in atrocities, the same applies to the real church which is the majority of the members of that Body below the upper hierarchy
posted by openmind
Because they have faith everybody else is wrong. You ask a logical question of people who must suspend logic and reason to keep the faith. What do you do with people who will not agree to just live and let live.
Are you referring to me here?
How about your take on DNA?
British philosopher, Dr. Antony Flew, has been a leading spokesperson for atheism, actively involved in debate after debate. However, scientific discoveries within the last 30 years brought him to a conclusion he could not avoid. In a video interview in December 2004 he stated, "Super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature." Prominent in his conclusion were the discoveries of DNA. Here's why.
DNA in our cells is very similar to an intricate computer program. Consider computers, you see that a computer program is made up of a series of ones and zeros (called binary code). The sequencing and ordering of these ones and zeros is what makes the computer program work properly.
In the same way, DNA is made up of four chemicals, abbreviated as letters A, T, G, and C. Much like the ones and zeros, these letters are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. The order in which they are arranged instructs the cell's actions.
What is amazing is that within the tiny space in every cell in your body, this code is three billion letters long!!
To grasp the amount of DNA information in one cell, "a live reading of that code at a rate of three letters per second would take thirty-one years, even if reading continued day and night."
It has been determined that 99.9% of your DNA is similar to everyone's genetic makeup. What is uniquely you comes in the fractional difference in how those three billion letters are sequenced in your cells.
The U.S. government is able to identify everyone in our country by the arrangement of a nine-digit social security number. Yet, inside every cell in you is a three-billion-lettered DNA structure that belongs only to you. This code identifies you and continually instructs your cells' behaviour.
Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."
Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it.
Just as former atheist Dr. Antony Flew questioned, it is legitimate to ask oneself regarding this three billion letter code instructing the cell...who wrote this script? Who placed this working code, inside the cell?
It's like walking along the beach and you see in the sand, "Mike loves Michelle." You know the waves rolling up on the beach didn't form that--a person wrote that. It is a precise message. It is clear communication. In the same way, the DNA structure is a complex, three-billion-lettered script, informing and directing the cell's process.
How can one explain this sophisticated messaging, coding, residing in our cells?
In June 26, 2000, President Clinton congratulated those who completed the human genome sequencing. President Clinton said, "Today we are learning the language in which God created life. We are gaining ever more awe for the complexity, the beauty, the wonder of God's most divine and sacred gift." Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, followed Clinton to the podium stating, "It is humbling for me and awe inspiring to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God."
When looking at the DNA structure within the human body, we cannot escape the presence of intelligent (incredibly intelligent) design.
According to the Bible (which is itself incredibly complex) God is not only the Author of our existence, but he is the Relationship that makes our existence meaningful. All the intangibles in life that we crave...enough strength for any situation, joy, wisdom, and knowing we are loved...God alone gives these to us as we listen to him and trust him. He is our greatest, reliable guide in life. Just as he has engineered DNA to instruct the cell, he offers to instruct us to make our lives function well, for his glory and for our sake, because he loves us.
God Bless you
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1348989 wrote: Are you referring to me here?
How about your take on DNA?
British philosopher, Dr. Antony Flew, has been a leading spokesperson for atheism, actively involved in debate after debate. However, scientific discoveries within the last 30 years brought him to a conclusion he could not avoid. In a video interview in December 2004 he stated, "Super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature." Prominent in his conclusion were the discoveries of DNA. Here's why.
DNA in our cells is very similar to an intricate computer program. Consider computers, you see that a computer program is made up of a series of ones and zeros (called binary code). The sequencing and ordering of these ones and zeros is what makes the computer program work properly.
In the same way, DNA is made up of four chemicals, abbreviated as letters A, T, G, and C. Much like the ones and zeros, these letters are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. The order in which they are arranged instructs the cell's actions.
What is amazing is that within the tiny space in every cell in your body, this code is three billion letters long!!
To grasp the amount of DNA information in one cell, "a live reading of that code at a rate of three letters per second would take thirty-one years, even if reading continued day and night."
It has been determined that 99.9% of your DNA is similar to everyone's genetic makeup. What is uniquely you comes in the fractional difference in how those three billion letters are sequenced in your cells.
The U.S. government is able to identify everyone in our country by the arrangement of a nine-digit social security number. Yet, inside every cell in you is a three-billion-lettered DNA structure that belongs only to you. This code identifies you and continually instructs your cells' behaviour.
Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."
Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it.
Just as former atheist Dr. Antony Flew questioned, it is legitimate to ask oneself regarding this three billion letter code instructing the cell...who wrote this script? Who placed this working code, inside the cell?
It's like walking along the beach and you see in the sand, "Mike loves Michelle." You know the waves rolling up on the beach didn't form that--a person wrote that. It is a precise message. It is clear communication. In the same way, the DNA structure is a complex, three-billion-lettered script, informing and directing the cell's process.
How can one explain this sophisticated messaging, coding, residing in our cells?
In June 26, 2000, President Clinton congratulated those who completed the human genome sequencing. President Clinton said, "Today we are learning the language in which God created life. We are gaining ever more awe for the complexity, the beauty, the wonder of God's most divine and sacred gift." Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, followed Clinton to the podium stating, "It is humbling for me and awe inspiring to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God."
When looking at the DNA structure within the human body, we cannot escape the presence of intelligent (incredibly intelligent) design.
According to the Bible (which is itself incredibly complex) God is not only the Author of our existence, but he is the Relationship that makes our existence meaningful. All the intangibles in life that we crave...enough strength for any situation, joy, wisdom, and knowing we are loved...God alone gives these to us as we listen to him and trust him. He is our greatest, reliable guide in life. Just as he has engineered DNA to instruct the cell, he offers to instruct us to make our lives function well, for his glory and for our sake, because he loves us.
God Bless you
That I quoted part of your post should have been a good clue as to what I was referring to. As to my take on DNA I am not going to go round the houses with you on that one. You see the hand of a superbeing in it all and are happy with that explanation. I do not. God has been and always will be is not a satisfactory conclusion. It doesn't really matter what this or that scientist thinks look at the evidence and make up your own mind. You claim to be a freethinker so think the thought. Even if I did choose to believe in a super being I would not be inclined to worship it and most certainly not follow any of the main religions. They are made up belief systems for those who would manipulate their fellows. How anyone can look at the history of the bible or of religion and believe their religion to be the unchanged word of god and the only true version is an intellectual leap off a cliff based on nothing more than the vain hope of a shortfall and safe landing. It's absurd and nonsensical and quite frankly I cannot understand why anyone falls for it. I can respect someone's right to believe what they want but the reality is when religion and it's endless need for conflict with other religion becomes too powerful in society all that follows is misery for those who don't conform, sectarianism and warfare.
The only conflict between evolutionists and creationist is caused by creationists trying to shut up people who question their right to dictate what people should believe and refuse to bend the knee worshipping and imaginary friend. They worry about losing control of the congregations. Power on earth is all that is at stake.
How about your take on DNA?
British philosopher, Dr. Antony Flew, has been a leading spokesperson for atheism, actively involved in debate after debate. However, scientific discoveries within the last 30 years brought him to a conclusion he could not avoid. In a video interview in December 2004 he stated, "Super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature." Prominent in his conclusion were the discoveries of DNA. Here's why.
DNA in our cells is very similar to an intricate computer program. Consider computers, you see that a computer program is made up of a series of ones and zeros (called binary code). The sequencing and ordering of these ones and zeros is what makes the computer program work properly.
In the same way, DNA is made up of four chemicals, abbreviated as letters A, T, G, and C. Much like the ones and zeros, these letters are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. The order in which they are arranged instructs the cell's actions.
What is amazing is that within the tiny space in every cell in your body, this code is three billion letters long!!
To grasp the amount of DNA information in one cell, "a live reading of that code at a rate of three letters per second would take thirty-one years, even if reading continued day and night."
It has been determined that 99.9% of your DNA is similar to everyone's genetic makeup. What is uniquely you comes in the fractional difference in how those three billion letters are sequenced in your cells.
The U.S. government is able to identify everyone in our country by the arrangement of a nine-digit social security number. Yet, inside every cell in you is a three-billion-lettered DNA structure that belongs only to you. This code identifies you and continually instructs your cells' behaviour.
Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."
Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it.
Just as former atheist Dr. Antony Flew questioned, it is legitimate to ask oneself regarding this three billion letter code instructing the cell...who wrote this script? Who placed this working code, inside the cell?
It's like walking along the beach and you see in the sand, "Mike loves Michelle." You know the waves rolling up on the beach didn't form that--a person wrote that. It is a precise message. It is clear communication. In the same way, the DNA structure is a complex, three-billion-lettered script, informing and directing the cell's process.
How can one explain this sophisticated messaging, coding, residing in our cells?
In June 26, 2000, President Clinton congratulated those who completed the human genome sequencing. President Clinton said, "Today we are learning the language in which God created life. We are gaining ever more awe for the complexity, the beauty, the wonder of God's most divine and sacred gift." Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, followed Clinton to the podium stating, "It is humbling for me and awe inspiring to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God."
When looking at the DNA structure within the human body, we cannot escape the presence of intelligent (incredibly intelligent) design.
According to the Bible (which is itself incredibly complex) God is not only the Author of our existence, but he is the Relationship that makes our existence meaningful. All the intangibles in life that we crave...enough strength for any situation, joy, wisdom, and knowing we are loved...God alone gives these to us as we listen to him and trust him. He is our greatest, reliable guide in life. Just as he has engineered DNA to instruct the cell, he offers to instruct us to make our lives function well, for his glory and for our sake, because he loves us.
God Bless you
That I quoted part of your post should have been a good clue as to what I was referring to. As to my take on DNA I am not going to go round the houses with you on that one. You see the hand of a superbeing in it all and are happy with that explanation. I do not. God has been and always will be is not a satisfactory conclusion. It doesn't really matter what this or that scientist thinks look at the evidence and make up your own mind. You claim to be a freethinker so think the thought. Even if I did choose to believe in a super being I would not be inclined to worship it and most certainly not follow any of the main religions. They are made up belief systems for those who would manipulate their fellows. How anyone can look at the history of the bible or of religion and believe their religion to be the unchanged word of god and the only true version is an intellectual leap off a cliff based on nothing more than the vain hope of a shortfall and safe landing. It's absurd and nonsensical and quite frankly I cannot understand why anyone falls for it. I can respect someone's right to believe what they want but the reality is when religion and it's endless need for conflict with other religion becomes too powerful in society all that follows is misery for those who don't conform, sectarianism and warfare.
The only conflict between evolutionists and creationist is caused by creationists trying to shut up people who question their right to dictate what people should believe and refuse to bend the knee worshipping and imaginary friend. They worry about losing control of the congregations. Power on earth is all that is at stake.
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1348988 wrote:
*** Indeed, the science which remains is the bst hypotheses for the similarities but who wrote the DNA code? an eqally vaid explanation os that we share similarities in genes and structures with otherlife forms because theywere produced by the same Author
You really want to give God the credit for designing things like cancer and disease? Or designing the mechansims that pass these diseases (or propensity of disease) from the mother to infant? A lot of so called "design" is honestly terrible from an engineering standpoint, and only makes sense if we look at a function in light of it's origin and adaptation of another earlier function.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1348988 wrote:
Do you really believe there is no good reason for your existance?
Again, science and evolution are compatible with the existence of God. Half of scientists believe in God, half do not.
But I personally don't see God as explaining these questions either, since we don't have a good reason for God's existence.
*** Indeed, the science which remains is the bst hypotheses for the similarities but who wrote the DNA code? an eqally vaid explanation os that we share similarities in genes and structures with otherlife forms because theywere produced by the same Author
You really want to give God the credit for designing things like cancer and disease? Or designing the mechansims that pass these diseases (or propensity of disease) from the mother to infant? A lot of so called "design" is honestly terrible from an engineering standpoint, and only makes sense if we look at a function in light of it's origin and adaptation of another earlier function.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1348988 wrote:
Do you really believe there is no good reason for your existance?
Again, science and evolution are compatible with the existence of God. Half of scientists believe in God, half do not.
But I personally don't see God as explaining these questions either, since we don't have a good reason for God's existence.
-
littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1348729 wrote: I see you selectively take a quote from me and ignore the rest of the context of what I have written, very convenient! You also critique in broad brush strokes without providing any examples of which parts of the Bible you believe to be corrupted in one way or another.
If you care to debate even humanistic logic, you will need to do a lot better
Bless you
Why would I debate human logic when pertaining to a book containing, mythic logic themes ressurections, river seperation, talking burning bushes, ectera it would be a waste of my time, and would be a wast of yours as I don't have the belief or that such things happened or the belief tha such a belief really exist but instead is a phsycological ignorance or bigotry to facts and truths for the false saftey and security faith gives you about the unknown.
If you care to debate even humanistic logic, you will need to do a lot better
Bless you
Why would I debate human logic when pertaining to a book containing, mythic logic themes ressurections, river seperation, talking burning bushes, ectera it would be a waste of my time, and would be a wast of yours as I don't have the belief or that such things happened or the belief tha such a belief really exist but instead is a phsycological ignorance or bigotry to facts and truths for the false saftey and security faith gives you about the unknown.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
yaaarrrgg;1349043 wrote: You really want to give God the credit for designing things like cancer and disease? Or designing the mechansims that pass these diseases (or propensity of disease) from the mother to infant? A lot of so called "design" is honestly terrible from an engineering standpoint, and only makes sense if we look at a function in light of it's origin and adaptation of another earlier function.
***No that is not what I am saying at all, and shows you have no understanding of the Bible for there is another force at work in this world and not all will be saved. what is perfect and creative is from God but for example some peices of music which do not glorify Love are words within creative music (all from God) with corrupt words.
Can you give me some examples from an engineering perspective on which organs or body parts/ systems on an average human which are terrible design wise? Also bear in mind that although this body is a host for our spirit it is only for this short lifetime not our eternity?
Again, science and evolution are compatible with the existence of God. Half of scientists believe in God, half do not.
But I personally don't see God as explaining these questions either, since we don't have a good reason for God's existence.
Again if you do not see a good reason for God's existance you have clearly not read and understood the Bible and it is not a book which can be skimmed through. If you have an engineering mind, try reading it and see what the big pictures in this book are, It is a broad canvas with several important points and in some cases the primary ones run through both testaments, some others show progress from one to the next - evolution if you like!
I repeat yet again, I have no argument with most of science, although I see TB is making a comeback and some bacterias are scaring some hospital patients, and also that man still cannot solve the probelms of the world in trade, economics, hunger relief, crime, disease, injustice and plagues
Where is the evidence that man evolved?
who wrote the DNA code?
It certainly is an instruction manual or do you not even recognise that
Are you happy with no reason for why we are here?
Where have all opur primary moral principals come from?
These are the questions which are not being answered by any non creationsits on this thread?
Why?
God bless you
***No that is not what I am saying at all, and shows you have no understanding of the Bible for there is another force at work in this world and not all will be saved. what is perfect and creative is from God but for example some peices of music which do not glorify Love are words within creative music (all from God) with corrupt words.
Can you give me some examples from an engineering perspective on which organs or body parts/ systems on an average human which are terrible design wise? Also bear in mind that although this body is a host for our spirit it is only for this short lifetime not our eternity?
Again, science and evolution are compatible with the existence of God. Half of scientists believe in God, half do not.
But I personally don't see God as explaining these questions either, since we don't have a good reason for God's existence.
Again if you do not see a good reason for God's existance you have clearly not read and understood the Bible and it is not a book which can be skimmed through. If you have an engineering mind, try reading it and see what the big pictures in this book are, It is a broad canvas with several important points and in some cases the primary ones run through both testaments, some others show progress from one to the next - evolution if you like!
I repeat yet again, I have no argument with most of science, although I see TB is making a comeback and some bacterias are scaring some hospital patients, and also that man still cannot solve the probelms of the world in trade, economics, hunger relief, crime, disease, injustice and plagues
Where is the evidence that man evolved?
who wrote the DNA code?
It certainly is an instruction manual or do you not even recognise that
Are you happy with no reason for why we are here?
Where have all opur primary moral principals come from?
These are the questions which are not being answered by any non creationsits on this thread?
Why?
God bless you
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1349076 wrote:
Where is the evidence that man evolved?
The evidence is the fact that it's the leading theory in science.
There's a million good examples though. Consider a few things:
Why don't we have the correct number of teeth, and need to have our wisdom teeth cut out? We used to have larger jaws.
Why do people have so many problems with their backs and knees? Because the upright walking functions are relatively new. Still don't have all the bugs worked out.
What keeps the immune system from killing it's own organism? Actually, it does. That's where all sorts of disease comes from ... the body attacking itself. Asthma, diabetes (type 1), arthritis, etc.
Why is the more advanced brain tissue on the outside of the brain? It was the last ring added.
Why do feet look like deformed hands? Because they come from the same type of appendage.
Why do humans and modern primates share the same body organs? Because they both descended from a common ancestor.
Evolution explains the good bad and the ugly. It is a cornerstone of modern biology
freethinkingthuthseeker;1349076 wrote:
who wrote the DNA code?
It certainly is an instruction manual or do you not even recognise that
Are you happy with no reason for why we are here?
Where have all opur primary moral principals come from?
These are the questions which are not being answered by any non creationsits on this thread?
Why?
Nor are these questions answered by inserting a deity into the picture.
Who created God?
What reason does God exist?
Can God dictate, arbitrarily, that murder is good, and telling the truth is bad? Can he invert morality? Or are these principles based on something that is not subject to the whim of decree (plato has an interesting critique of the divine command theory of morality)
Where is the evidence that man evolved?
The evidence is the fact that it's the leading theory in science.
There's a million good examples though. Consider a few things:
Why don't we have the correct number of teeth, and need to have our wisdom teeth cut out? We used to have larger jaws.
Why do people have so many problems with their backs and knees? Because the upright walking functions are relatively new. Still don't have all the bugs worked out.
What keeps the immune system from killing it's own organism? Actually, it does. That's where all sorts of disease comes from ... the body attacking itself. Asthma, diabetes (type 1), arthritis, etc.
Why is the more advanced brain tissue on the outside of the brain? It was the last ring added.
Why do feet look like deformed hands? Because they come from the same type of appendage.
Why do humans and modern primates share the same body organs? Because they both descended from a common ancestor.
Evolution explains the good bad and the ugly. It is a cornerstone of modern biology
freethinkingthuthseeker;1349076 wrote:
who wrote the DNA code?
It certainly is an instruction manual or do you not even recognise that
Are you happy with no reason for why we are here?
Where have all opur primary moral principals come from?
These are the questions which are not being answered by any non creationsits on this thread?
Why?
Nor are these questions answered by inserting a deity into the picture.
Who created God?
What reason does God exist?
Can God dictate, arbitrarily, that murder is good, and telling the truth is bad? Can he invert morality? Or are these principles based on something that is not subject to the whim of decree (plato has an interesting critique of the divine command theory of morality)
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
littleCJelkton;1349060 wrote: Why would I debate human logic when pertaining to a book containing, mythic logic themes ressurections, river seperation, talking burning bushes, ectera it would be a waste of my time, and would be a wast of yours as I don't have the belief or that such things happened or the belief tha such a belief really exist but instead is a phsycological ignorance or bigotry to facts and truths for the false saftey and security faith gives you about the unknown.
Now I begin to wonder if you are a tabloid journalist, I mean just taking the sensationalist parts of the Bible rather that the messages within each of those situations.
You also don't know me, for I am almost 50 and only began to believe and start getting to know God 5 years ago.
Many years prior to that, I actually studied psychology and was something of an anti theist let alone an atheist.Although not to the level of a pet hobby like dawkins for example.
My personal safety is and has been physically manifest to me many times in the last 5 years, I have even critiqued the quran alone with three larger than me - and not well educated - musims to the point where they felt I had insulted their "god" and could see that they were angry and wanted to beat me but they simply could not. - and I am talking about an inner London rough area at night.
As for the river parting example you stated, modern science has shown that the red sea has a place which connects to Egypt which is raised and that wind can indeed separate the water there just as related in the Bible 3000 years ago. Of course the message of the story is not about that great event but about the story of God's people, it is just a geophysical aspect at just the right time, as usual with God.
If you think this is a waste of time , why are you here on this thread? just to throw generality insults at believers? Why not enter into a dialogue?
what is the mythic logic in detail you refer to?
With the greatest of respect, The way you present on here gives me no confidence that you have read any significant amounts of this most amazing book, and have little or no understanding of the central themes and lessons contained therein and which remains the by far best seller for so many years.
God bless you
Now I begin to wonder if you are a tabloid journalist, I mean just taking the sensationalist parts of the Bible rather that the messages within each of those situations.
You also don't know me, for I am almost 50 and only began to believe and start getting to know God 5 years ago.
Many years prior to that, I actually studied psychology and was something of an anti theist let alone an atheist.Although not to the level of a pet hobby like dawkins for example.
My personal safety is and has been physically manifest to me many times in the last 5 years, I have even critiqued the quran alone with three larger than me - and not well educated - musims to the point where they felt I had insulted their "god" and could see that they were angry and wanted to beat me but they simply could not. - and I am talking about an inner London rough area at night.
As for the river parting example you stated, modern science has shown that the red sea has a place which connects to Egypt which is raised and that wind can indeed separate the water there just as related in the Bible 3000 years ago. Of course the message of the story is not about that great event but about the story of God's people, it is just a geophysical aspect at just the right time, as usual with God.
If you think this is a waste of time , why are you here on this thread? just to throw generality insults at believers? Why not enter into a dialogue?
what is the mythic logic in detail you refer to?
With the greatest of respect, The way you present on here gives me no confidence that you have read any significant amounts of this most amazing book, and have little or no understanding of the central themes and lessons contained therein and which remains the by far best seller for so many years.
God bless you
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littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1349078 wrote: Now I begin to wonder if you are a tabloid journalist, I mean just taking the sensationalist parts of the Bible rather that the messages within each of those situations.
You also don't know me, for I am almost 50 and only began to believe and start getting to know God 5 years ago.
Many years prior to that, I actually studied psychology and was something of an anti theist let alone an atheist.Although not to the level of a pet hobby like dawkins for example.
My personal safety is and has been physically manifest to me many times in the last 5 years, I have even critiqued the quran alone with three larger than me - and not well educated - musims to the point where they felt I had insulted their "god" and could see that they were angry and wanted to beat me but they simply could not. - and I am talking about an inner London rough area at night.
As for the river parting example you stated, modern science has shown that the red sea has a place which connects to Egypt which is raised and that wind can indeed separate the water there just as related in the Bible 3000 years ago. Of course the message of the story is not about that great event but about the story of God's people, it is just a geophysical aspect at just the right time, as usual with God.
If you think this is a waste of time , why are you here on this thread? just to throw generality insults at believers? Why not enter into a dialogue?
what is the mythic logic in detail you refer to?
With the greatest of respect, The way you present on here gives me no confidence that you have read any significant amounts of this most amazing book, and have little or no understanding of the central themes and lessons contained therein and which remains the by far best seller for so many years.
God bless you
Why then if your going to present the logic of the red sea being a tidally cause phenomena rather than an act of god parting it, and say that the bible is more about the overall moral messages and central themes. Why then is Evolution not viable as well instead of it being something done by the hand of god. You are proving the point that the bible uses mythic logic by using fantastical stories to teach people morals, right/wrong themes, and lessons. Much like myths and fables of the Greeks, Norse, Egyptians, and the tall tales of Pecos bill, John Henry and Paul Bunyan do.
You also don't know me, for I am almost 50 and only began to believe and start getting to know God 5 years ago.
Many years prior to that, I actually studied psychology and was something of an anti theist let alone an atheist.Although not to the level of a pet hobby like dawkins for example.
My personal safety is and has been physically manifest to me many times in the last 5 years, I have even critiqued the quran alone with three larger than me - and not well educated - musims to the point where they felt I had insulted their "god" and could see that they were angry and wanted to beat me but they simply could not. - and I am talking about an inner London rough area at night.
As for the river parting example you stated, modern science has shown that the red sea has a place which connects to Egypt which is raised and that wind can indeed separate the water there just as related in the Bible 3000 years ago. Of course the message of the story is not about that great event but about the story of God's people, it is just a geophysical aspect at just the right time, as usual with God.
If you think this is a waste of time , why are you here on this thread? just to throw generality insults at believers? Why not enter into a dialogue?
what is the mythic logic in detail you refer to?
With the greatest of respect, The way you present on here gives me no confidence that you have read any significant amounts of this most amazing book, and have little or no understanding of the central themes and lessons contained therein and which remains the by far best seller for so many years.
God bless you
Why then if your going to present the logic of the red sea being a tidally cause phenomena rather than an act of god parting it, and say that the bible is more about the overall moral messages and central themes. Why then is Evolution not viable as well instead of it being something done by the hand of god. You are proving the point that the bible uses mythic logic by using fantastical stories to teach people morals, right/wrong themes, and lessons. Much like myths and fables of the Greeks, Norse, Egyptians, and the tall tales of Pecos bill, John Henry and Paul Bunyan do.
Creationism?
Long but interesting
YouTube - Eye2EyeIIV's Channel
posting by freedomthinkingthuthseeker
Again if you do not see a good reason for God's existance you have clearly not read and understood the Bible and it is not a book which can be skimmed through. If you have an engineering mind, try reading it and see what the big pictures in this book are, It is a broad canvas with several important points and in some cases the primary ones run through both testaments, some others show progress from one to the next - evolution if you like!
All it boils down to you have no proof but you prefer to believe there is a god. You have no reasonable arguments to put for your belief because if you could you would not need faith. Even of someone proved conclusively there was a god there will always be those who prefer to believe it's a false god and go on a crusade over it. Whose god is it, not mine, never mind the belief there is only one god the nutters want to war against the followers of the false one. It is nonsense.
YouTube - Eye2EyeIIV's Channel
posting by freedomthinkingthuthseeker
Again if you do not see a good reason for God's existance you have clearly not read and understood the Bible and it is not a book which can be skimmed through. If you have an engineering mind, try reading it and see what the big pictures in this book are, It is a broad canvas with several important points and in some cases the primary ones run through both testaments, some others show progress from one to the next - evolution if you like!
All it boils down to you have no proof but you prefer to believe there is a god. You have no reasonable arguments to put for your belief because if you could you would not need faith. Even of someone proved conclusively there was a god there will always be those who prefer to believe it's a false god and go on a crusade over it. Whose god is it, not mine, never mind the belief there is only one god the nutters want to war against the followers of the false one. It is nonsense.
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1348985 wrote: The proof of the pudding in Knowing God is to invite Jeus into your life with all your heart.In this way you will know for yourself the Truth and it will set you free.
God's gift is for all mankind.
Consider the few Christians that began the early Chruch.
I think about the odds stacked against the 120 believers right after Christ's ascension in the early church. They were hemmed in by two mountains on either side – one the one side, they faced the might of the Roman Empire, who insisted that “Caesar is Lord”, on the other side they were hemmed in by the intransigence of the Jews who were determined to stop the embryonic Jesus movement. Yet the 120 flattened both mountains, and within a few hundred years, Christianity had taken over the known world. How? This was a great Miracle
The power of the Holy Spirit came on them. And with this supernatural power within them, they did the impossible. That same power can be within you.
Bless you
I cannot invite Jesus anywhere as he is dead.
Although DNA is amazing, it does not mean that it was designed by a superbeing such as a god. Particles are attracted to other particles and substance is formed by the combination of particles. It took billions of years after the formation of the present universe before life began on this planet in its most basic form. Once it does form, it is likely to evolve under the right conditions as provided by our planet, Earth. In fact, it is difficult to stop it once it does begin to grow. We have also seen how life can evolve in the most extreme conditions at the bottom depths of our oceans in conditions deadly to us. This suggests that it is even possible that there may be a primitive form of life on Jupiter. We are now able to observe the universe billions of lightyears away from our solar system, yet we have not found evidence of any other life which shows just how exacting conditions must be for life to form.
I understand completely how amazing life is. I have an appreciation for beauty and I am able to enjoy music.
However, over the centuries, science has disproved religious theories and will continue to do so. Religions developed at a time when we knew little of what caused something like rain and a dry year has destroyed many cultures in the past.
I am also aware that religious organisations are political in nature and will not readily give up their political control over the masses. Yet, in every other aspect of our lives, we require proof or evidence. But it seems many people are willing to believe in a religion without any proof whatsoever of a supernatural being. Moreover, in the Old Testament, there appears to have been more than one god at the beginning. An anomaly often overlooked by religious leaders.
The original Catholic church did not even want its congregation to own copies of the bible. Fear was induced into those who might not believe in god. And fear was used a lot to control the masses. Jesus taught the principle of love, not fear. I have yet to hear the Catholic church apologise for its witch hunt and the horrific evil committed in its name.
God's gift is for all mankind.
Consider the few Christians that began the early Chruch.
I think about the odds stacked against the 120 believers right after Christ's ascension in the early church. They were hemmed in by two mountains on either side – one the one side, they faced the might of the Roman Empire, who insisted that “Caesar is Lord”, on the other side they were hemmed in by the intransigence of the Jews who were determined to stop the embryonic Jesus movement. Yet the 120 flattened both mountains, and within a few hundred years, Christianity had taken over the known world. How? This was a great Miracle
The power of the Holy Spirit came on them. And with this supernatural power within them, they did the impossible. That same power can be within you.
Bless you
I cannot invite Jesus anywhere as he is dead.
Although DNA is amazing, it does not mean that it was designed by a superbeing such as a god. Particles are attracted to other particles and substance is formed by the combination of particles. It took billions of years after the formation of the present universe before life began on this planet in its most basic form. Once it does form, it is likely to evolve under the right conditions as provided by our planet, Earth. In fact, it is difficult to stop it once it does begin to grow. We have also seen how life can evolve in the most extreme conditions at the bottom depths of our oceans in conditions deadly to us. This suggests that it is even possible that there may be a primitive form of life on Jupiter. We are now able to observe the universe billions of lightyears away from our solar system, yet we have not found evidence of any other life which shows just how exacting conditions must be for life to form.
I understand completely how amazing life is. I have an appreciation for beauty and I am able to enjoy music.
However, over the centuries, science has disproved religious theories and will continue to do so. Religions developed at a time when we knew little of what caused something like rain and a dry year has destroyed many cultures in the past.
I am also aware that religious organisations are political in nature and will not readily give up their political control over the masses. Yet, in every other aspect of our lives, we require proof or evidence. But it seems many people are willing to believe in a religion without any proof whatsoever of a supernatural being. Moreover, in the Old Testament, there appears to have been more than one god at the beginning. An anomaly often overlooked by religious leaders.
The original Catholic church did not even want its congregation to own copies of the bible. Fear was induced into those who might not believe in god. And fear was used a lot to control the masses. Jesus taught the principle of love, not fear. I have yet to hear the Catholic church apologise for its witch hunt and the horrific evil committed in its name.
Creationism?
Jesus dead? There are a lot of dead people who were named Jesus, but the one read of from the Christian bible never existed. Outside the biblical story, there is not one morsel of evidence of this person. One would think with all the uproar and commotion this person supposedly caused along with everything he had to say, there'd be some record or writings from him someplace, but there isn't. I will happily back away from that statement if and when something which refutes it and is verifiable is uncovered. Until then, the man never existed.
Why is that important? Because the grip this myth has on politics, war, hatred and bigotry as well as finances which could be going toward scientific research and other endeavors in the world rather than in the pockets of liars and castles where little men in funny outfits reside is absolutely disgusting and immoral.
Why is that important? Because the grip this myth has on politics, war, hatred and bigotry as well as finances which could be going toward scientific research and other endeavors in the world rather than in the pockets of liars and castles where little men in funny outfits reside is absolutely disgusting and immoral.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Creationism?
Ahso!;1349237 wrote: Jesus dead? There are a lot of dead people who were named Jesus, but the one read of from the Christian bible never existed. Outside the biblical story, there is not one morsel of evidence of this person. One would think with all the uproar and commotion this person supposedly caused along with everything he had to say, there'd be some record or writings from him someplace, but there isn't. I will happily back away from that statement if and when something which refutes it and is verifiable is uncovered. Until then, the man never existed.
Why is that important? Because the grip this myth has on politics, war, hatred and bigotry as well as finances which could be going toward scientific research and other endeavors in the world rather than in the pockets of liars and castles where little men in funny outfits reside is absolutely disgusting and immoral.
This could be the subject of a thread by itself including why several gospels were left out of the New Testament and why Mary's in particular who was closest to Jesus it seems. It would also appear that he left the task of writing to his disciples.
Why is that important? Because the grip this myth has on politics, war, hatred and bigotry as well as finances which could be going toward scientific research and other endeavors in the world rather than in the pockets of liars and castles where little men in funny outfits reside is absolutely disgusting and immoral.
This could be the subject of a thread by itself including why several gospels were left out of the New Testament and why Mary's in particular who was closest to Jesus it seems. It would also appear that he left the task of writing to his disciples.
Creationism?
In spite the wrong men have done in his name, and in spite of the chasms created between different religions, and in spite of all the evils men hold God responsible for, Jesus, the son of the Living God, is alive. He brought the news of God's Kingdom to to all men, and defeated death, taking on the sins of mankind to himself.
God's message through him is "All is forgiven. Come home."
God's message through him is "All is forgiven. Come home."
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Creationism?
LarsMac;1349379 wrote: In spite the wrong men have done in his name, and in spite of the chasms created between different religions, and in spite of all the evils men hold God responsible for, Jesus, the son of the Living God, is alive. He brought the news of God's Kingdom to to all men, and defeated death, taking on the sins of mankind to himself.
God's message through him is "All is forgiven. Come home."
That is your belief and you are welcome to it and I wish you well. If that was all religion was about there would be no problem. Unfortunately the warriors for jesus seemed to have missed the main point of his teachings and have always been determined to make believer of us all - whether we want to be or not.
posted by ahso
I am also aware that religious organisations are political in nature and will not readily give up their political control over the masses.
Seems like they are making a bid to get it back, in consolation if they managed it the unity required to get it would last about five minutes before a war started for the souls of the nation.
God's message through him is "All is forgiven. Come home."
That is your belief and you are welcome to it and I wish you well. If that was all religion was about there would be no problem. Unfortunately the warriors for jesus seemed to have missed the main point of his teachings and have always been determined to make believer of us all - whether we want to be or not.
posted by ahso
I am also aware that religious organisations are political in nature and will not readily give up their political control over the masses.
Seems like they are making a bid to get it back, in consolation if they managed it the unity required to get it would last about five minutes before a war started for the souls of the nation.
Creationism?
Must be pretty confusing to those who insist on taking the creation myth literally.
WHICH CAME FIRST IN CREATION?
GENESIS 1:11-12 and 1:26-27: Trees came before Adam.
GENESIS 2:4-9: Trees came after Adam.
GENESIS 1:20-21 and 26-27: Birds were created before Adam.
GENESIS 2:7 and 2:19: Birds were created after Adam.
Genesis 1:24-27: Animals were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19: Animals were created after Adam.
Genesis 1:26-27: Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22: Adam was created first, woman sometime later.
Genesis 1:31: God was pleased with his creation.
Genesis 6:5-6: God was not pleased with his creation. (Which raises the question, how can an omnipotent, omniscient God create something he’s not pleased with?)
WHICH CAME FIRST IN CREATION?
GENESIS 1:11-12 and 1:26-27: Trees came before Adam.
GENESIS 2:4-9: Trees came after Adam.
GENESIS 1:20-21 and 26-27: Birds were created before Adam.
GENESIS 2:7 and 2:19: Birds were created after Adam.
Genesis 1:24-27: Animals were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19: Animals were created after Adam.
Genesis 1:26-27: Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22: Adam was created first, woman sometime later.
Genesis 1:31: God was pleased with his creation.
Genesis 6:5-6: God was not pleased with his creation. (Which raises the question, how can an omnipotent, omniscient God create something he’s not pleased with?)
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
littleCJelkton;1349107 wrote: Why then if your going to present the logic of the red sea being a tidally cause phenomena rather than an act of god parting it, and say that the bible is more about the overall moral messages and central themes. Why then is Evolution not viable as well instead of it being something done by the hand of god. You are proving the point that the bible uses mythic logic by using fantastical stories to teach people morals, right/wrong themes, and lessons. Much like myths and fables of the Greeks, Norse, Egyptians, and the tall tales of Pecos bill, John Henry and Paul Bunyan do.
Sorry for the delay in getting back - have been very busy indeed - Just because an event that can be explained by the weather occurs yet at exactly the right and crucial time when the Jewish peoples crossed the red sea is a great example of God's timing, that was the point. How does this relate to a belief or not about evolution?
Regarding the latter, I do belive as do many Christian scientists that many species did evolve, I do not believe that Man did and there is absolutley no proof for this latter assertion whatever, Nor will there ever be. Do you really feel anything akin to a monkey?
The differences betwen the Bible and the Greeks, Norse, Egyptians mythologies you have refrred to includes The Bible is older than all of them and that the latters tories are based upon principals already established in scripture, particualrly from the OT.
Furthermore, the Bible is the comprehasive sources of ALL moral standards.
By the way now that I know God better those old lessons from the OT do not seem fantastical to me now
Bless you
Sorry for the delay in getting back - have been very busy indeed - Just because an event that can be explained by the weather occurs yet at exactly the right and crucial time when the Jewish peoples crossed the red sea is a great example of God's timing, that was the point. How does this relate to a belief or not about evolution?
Regarding the latter, I do belive as do many Christian scientists that many species did evolve, I do not believe that Man did and there is absolutley no proof for this latter assertion whatever, Nor will there ever be. Do you really feel anything akin to a monkey?
The differences betwen the Bible and the Greeks, Norse, Egyptians mythologies you have refrred to includes The Bible is older than all of them and that the latters tories are based upon principals already established in scripture, particualrly from the OT.
Furthermore, the Bible is the comprehasive sources of ALL moral standards.
By the way now that I know God better those old lessons from the OT do not seem fantastical to me now
Bless you
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
gmc;1349134 wrote: Long but interesting
YouTube - Eye2EyeIIV's Channel
posting by freedomthinkingthuthseeker
All it boils down to you have no proof but you prefer to believe there is a god. You have no reasonable arguments to put for your belief because if you could you would not need faith. Even of someone proved conclusively there was a god there will always be those who prefer to believe it's a false god and go on a crusade over it. Whose god is it, not mine, never mind the belief there is only one god the nutters want to war against the followers of the false one. It is nonsense.
Whilst it is true that many Christians apply physical actions against unbelievers they too are of course lacking in full understanding, The real war is on the spiritual plane
AS for proof, how about the non Christian historical sources of Jesus?
How about the fact that after Jesus on earth a small band of 500 christians in a deeply hostile place like Judea surrpounded by a massiveand dominant jewish and roman pagan population, in the space of two hundred years grow to become the dominat religion in the roman world. Moreover completely by non violent means (the crusades were much later)
How do you explaine the fact that modern man believes in the existance of evil? Mass murders, psychopaths genocidists, peadophiles etc as well as mental health suffers? The only explanation for these in my knowledge is by the existance of evil in this world, If there are evil forces does than mean there is no Good?
What accounts for the althruistic and empathy characteristics and a sense of shame when we who are not evil do wrong?
where does that come from?
YouTube - Eye2EyeIIV's Channel
posting by freedomthinkingthuthseeker
All it boils down to you have no proof but you prefer to believe there is a god. You have no reasonable arguments to put for your belief because if you could you would not need faith. Even of someone proved conclusively there was a god there will always be those who prefer to believe it's a false god and go on a crusade over it. Whose god is it, not mine, never mind the belief there is only one god the nutters want to war against the followers of the false one. It is nonsense.
Whilst it is true that many Christians apply physical actions against unbelievers they too are of course lacking in full understanding, The real war is on the spiritual plane
AS for proof, how about the non Christian historical sources of Jesus?
How about the fact that after Jesus on earth a small band of 500 christians in a deeply hostile place like Judea surrpounded by a massiveand dominant jewish and roman pagan population, in the space of two hundred years grow to become the dominat religion in the roman world. Moreover completely by non violent means (the crusades were much later)
How do you explaine the fact that modern man believes in the existance of evil? Mass murders, psychopaths genocidists, peadophiles etc as well as mental health suffers? The only explanation for these in my knowledge is by the existance of evil in this world, If there are evil forces does than mean there is no Good?
What accounts for the althruistic and empathy characteristics and a sense of shame when we who are not evil do wrong?
where does that come from?
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
Open mind, you have raised severl assertions so I have copied and pasted your answer with my responses in italics point by point for convenience:
Although DNA is amazing, it does not mean that it was designed by a superbeing such as a god. Particles are attracted to other particles and substance is formed by the combination of particles.
Agreed this is not deep physics as an explanation but where did the attraction originate from? It is also an insufficient explanation of the genetic code which is a highly sophisticated code way beyond all modern computer language and instructs all living things on growing developing and repairing. According to the latest physics ideas there were only two or three elements in the universe where did all the rest come from?
Further, there is no real science explanation for gravity, just ask any modern physicists
It took billions of years after the formation of the present universe before life began on this planet in its most basic form. Once it does form, it is likely to evolve under the right conditions as provided by our planet, Earth. In fact, it is difficult to stop it once it does begin to grow. We have also seen how life can evolve in the most extreme conditions at the bottom depths of our oceans in conditions deadly to us.
Indeed... yet not on any other identified planet in the universe… why not?
This suggests that it is even possible that there may be a primitive form of life on Jupiter. We are now able to observe the universe billions of lightyears away from our solar system, yet we have not found evidence of any other life which shows just how exacting conditions must be for life to form.
It is indeed; even the axis of this planet in relation to our star is miraculous
I understand completely how amazing life is. I have an appreciation for beauty and I am able to enjoy music.
However, over the centuries, science has disproved religious theories and will continue to do so. Religions developed at a time when we knew little of what caused something like rain and a dry year has destroyed many cultures in the past.
It has disproved some ideas of some religious people but it has not disproved that there is a God
I am also aware that religious organisations are political in nature and will not readily give up their political control over the masses.
Not all religious Churches are political and in fact many carry out charitable acts
Yet, in every other aspect of our lives, we require proof or evidence.
I disagree, for example if a friend tells you he will meet you later today at a particular place you agree by faith even if perhaps he has let you down by being late if not showing once or more before.
We buy products that are both good and bad for us by faith to an extent.
We work in the faith that our employer will pay us regardless of the character of any particular employer.
We get on aeroplanes without understanding the engineering principles behind the ability to fly such a weight and we also trust that the ground crew have checked that everything is safe on the plane before takeoff.
We trust our spouses to remain faithful to us to name but a few examples.
But it seems many people are willing to believe in a religion without any proof whatsoever of a supernatural being. Moreover, in the Old Testament, there appears to have been more than one god at the beginning. An anomaly often overlooked by religious leaders.
If you are referring to the book of genesis that is a reference to the Holy Trinity, elsewhere in the OT is about satanic gods which man makes gods and are not in fact true gods
The original Catholic church did not even want its congregation to own copies of the bible. Fear was induced into those who might not believe in god. And fear was used a lot to control the masses. Jesus taught the principle of love, not fear. I have yet to hear the Catholic church apologise for its witch hunt and the horrific evil committed in its name.
I am not a catholic but a real Christian is one who develops a personal one to one two way relationship with God and I do not condone the catholic practises whatsoever
God bless
Although DNA is amazing, it does not mean that it was designed by a superbeing such as a god. Particles are attracted to other particles and substance is formed by the combination of particles.
Agreed this is not deep physics as an explanation but where did the attraction originate from? It is also an insufficient explanation of the genetic code which is a highly sophisticated code way beyond all modern computer language and instructs all living things on growing developing and repairing. According to the latest physics ideas there were only two or three elements in the universe where did all the rest come from?
Further, there is no real science explanation for gravity, just ask any modern physicists
It took billions of years after the formation of the present universe before life began on this planet in its most basic form. Once it does form, it is likely to evolve under the right conditions as provided by our planet, Earth. In fact, it is difficult to stop it once it does begin to grow. We have also seen how life can evolve in the most extreme conditions at the bottom depths of our oceans in conditions deadly to us.
Indeed... yet not on any other identified planet in the universe… why not?
This suggests that it is even possible that there may be a primitive form of life on Jupiter. We are now able to observe the universe billions of lightyears away from our solar system, yet we have not found evidence of any other life which shows just how exacting conditions must be for life to form.
It is indeed; even the axis of this planet in relation to our star is miraculous
I understand completely how amazing life is. I have an appreciation for beauty and I am able to enjoy music.
However, over the centuries, science has disproved religious theories and will continue to do so. Religions developed at a time when we knew little of what caused something like rain and a dry year has destroyed many cultures in the past.
It has disproved some ideas of some religious people but it has not disproved that there is a God
I am also aware that religious organisations are political in nature and will not readily give up their political control over the masses.
Not all religious Churches are political and in fact many carry out charitable acts
Yet, in every other aspect of our lives, we require proof or evidence.
I disagree, for example if a friend tells you he will meet you later today at a particular place you agree by faith even if perhaps he has let you down by being late if not showing once or more before.
We buy products that are both good and bad for us by faith to an extent.
We work in the faith that our employer will pay us regardless of the character of any particular employer.
We get on aeroplanes without understanding the engineering principles behind the ability to fly such a weight and we also trust that the ground crew have checked that everything is safe on the plane before takeoff.
We trust our spouses to remain faithful to us to name but a few examples.
But it seems many people are willing to believe in a religion without any proof whatsoever of a supernatural being. Moreover, in the Old Testament, there appears to have been more than one god at the beginning. An anomaly often overlooked by religious leaders.
If you are referring to the book of genesis that is a reference to the Holy Trinity, elsewhere in the OT is about satanic gods which man makes gods and are not in fact true gods
The original Catholic church did not even want its congregation to own copies of the bible. Fear was induced into those who might not believe in god. And fear was used a lot to control the masses. Jesus taught the principle of love, not fear. I have yet to hear the Catholic church apologise for its witch hunt and the horrific evil committed in its name.
I am not a catholic but a real Christian is one who develops a personal one to one two way relationship with God and I do not condone the catholic practises whatsoever
God bless
-
littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1354941 wrote: Sorry for the delay in getting back - have been very busy indeed - Just because an event that can be explained by the weather occurs yet at exactly the right and crucial time when the Jewish peoples crossed the red sea is a great example of God's timing, that was the point. How does this relate to a belief or not about evolution?
Regarding the latter, I do belive as do many Christian scientists that many species did evolve, I do not believe that Man did and there is absolutley no proof for this latter assertion whatever, Nor will there ever be. Do you really feel anything akin to a monkey?
The differences betwen the Bible and the Greeks, Norse, Egyptians mythologies you have refrred to includes The Bible is older than all of them and that the latters tories are based upon principals already established in scripture, particualrly from the OT.
Furthermore, the Bible is the comprehasive sources of ALL moral standards.
By the way now that I know God better those old lessons from the OT do not seem fantastical to me now
Bless you
Hiding behind a facade of "God told me", "I know God better" does not make the OT or New T any more real, More to the point much like the Myths i talk about " Which origins date back before the OT of moses, Noah if anything the stories of the OT and New T where influenced maybe even modified by stories of old religions (The Creation of the Greek world, The Ressurection of Osiris, the flood of noah just to name a few). The way god is depicted in many paintings resembles that of Zues or Odin. Many of these adaptations historians and scientist believe were made to help make the conversion process more easier (which is also by the way where most of easter's celebration comes from and why Christmas is december instead of in the summer which is more likley the time in which Jesus was possibly born). Though I personnally do not believe in these tales I do believe in many of the morals that are taught from these tales much as I do with those of mythology, and Tall Tales. Though since many Christans I have meat and at many Christian places of worship I have found that you are not a "true christian" if you only believe in the moral teachings of the book you have to believe in the entire book is a historical text that tells the history of the world. For this reason I am buddihst which allows me not to believe in any fantastical stories about buddha but what he taught by the way buddhism established 500 years before christianity gives it enough time to rach the Mid East more than enough time for Jesus to be influenced by which given the striking similarities especially in Jesus's Pacifist nature some scientist believe could of happen. The point I make is if this or that part of the bible is not some fantastical magic of gods will by an stretched truth about what really happen or even happened at all than that could hold true maybe even more so for the parts that refer to times further in history
Regarding the latter, I do belive as do many Christian scientists that many species did evolve, I do not believe that Man did and there is absolutley no proof for this latter assertion whatever, Nor will there ever be. Do you really feel anything akin to a monkey?
The differences betwen the Bible and the Greeks, Norse, Egyptians mythologies you have refrred to includes The Bible is older than all of them and that the latters tories are based upon principals already established in scripture, particualrly from the OT.
Furthermore, the Bible is the comprehasive sources of ALL moral standards.
By the way now that I know God better those old lessons from the OT do not seem fantastical to me now
Bless you
Hiding behind a facade of "God told me", "I know God better" does not make the OT or New T any more real, More to the point much like the Myths i talk about " Which origins date back before the OT of moses, Noah if anything the stories of the OT and New T where influenced maybe even modified by stories of old religions (The Creation of the Greek world, The Ressurection of Osiris, the flood of noah just to name a few). The way god is depicted in many paintings resembles that of Zues or Odin. Many of these adaptations historians and scientist believe were made to help make the conversion process more easier (which is also by the way where most of easter's celebration comes from and why Christmas is december instead of in the summer which is more likley the time in which Jesus was possibly born). Though I personnally do not believe in these tales I do believe in many of the morals that are taught from these tales much as I do with those of mythology, and Tall Tales. Though since many Christans I have meat and at many Christian places of worship I have found that you are not a "true christian" if you only believe in the moral teachings of the book you have to believe in the entire book is a historical text that tells the history of the world. For this reason I am buddihst which allows me not to believe in any fantastical stories about buddha but what he taught by the way buddhism established 500 years before christianity gives it enough time to rach the Mid East more than enough time for Jesus to be influenced by which given the striking similarities especially in Jesus's Pacifist nature some scientist believe could of happen. The point I make is if this or that part of the bible is not some fantastical magic of gods will by an stretched truth about what really happen or even happened at all than that could hold true maybe even more so for the parts that refer to times further in history
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
Ahso!;1349237 wrote: Jesus dead? There are a lot of dead people who were named Jesus, but the one read of from the Christian bible never existed. Outside the biblical story, there is not one morsel of evidence of this person. One would think with all the uproar and commotion this person supposedly caused along with everything he had to say, there'd be some record or writings from him someplace, but there isn't. I will happily back away from that statement if and when something which refutes it and is verifiable is uncovered. Until then, the man never existed.
Why is that important? Because the grip this myth has on politics, war, hatred and bigotry as well as finances which could be going toward scientific research and other endeavors in the world rather than in the pockets of liars and castles where little men in funny outfits reside is absolutely disgusting and immoral.
On yoour first para;
*** From a historiography standpoint, this is mostly an 'academic' exercise, since the 'existence' of Jesus of Nazareth could easily be established with only a tiny fraction of our New Testament documents. The mere existence of someone in history is (often) easily established on the basis of small textual samples (sometimes even single paragraphs). The amount of data (especially historically 'incidental') we have about Jesus in the New Testament--and the appearances that the authors were not collusive--gives us a very, very high level of assurance in this matter.
Again, professional and academic scholars of the period -- Christian, Jewish, Secular -- accept the New Testament as an adequate witness, both for historical 'existence' and for many pieces of historical detail about Jesus.
These 4 gospel writers were willing to be put to death over Jesus's death and ressurection and the oldest versions of them are dated to between 30 years and 100 years after the great sacrifice at Calvary.
Furthermore there are historical referecnes to Jesus from non Christian sources such as An important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christian,
Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.
Tacitus who wrote: Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome"
Now from these 3 sources alonewe can see incredible fgrowth of the early Church in a pagan and jewish world by peaceful means. No other faith has developed so incredibly in such a hositle environment by practising the peaceful examples of Jesus whilst he ministered on earth. This is all the more incredible because the romans were executing professed Christians at this time inclding killing by being pulled apart by horses and all they needed to do to avoid this was to recant thier belief!
These references to Jesus are all the more rmarkable as palastine was a remote corner of the roman empire
We have a good deal of information about the polemical and often bitter arguments Christians, Jews, and pagans had with one another in the early centuries. But the early Christians' opponents all accepted that Jesus existed, taught, had disciples, worked miracles, and was put to death on a Roman cross. As in our own day, debate and disagreement centred largely not on the story but on the significance of Jesus.
Suetonius,IN Lives of the Caesars, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the reign of emperor Claudius (c. AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the instigation of Chrestus.....
Josephus
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ." F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother." And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that Josephus actually penned this passage.
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.
Not one cotradcits the gospels nor the letters of Paul.
Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first- or second-century Jewish or pagan religious teacher.
Keep in mind that there really aren't that many records from the 1st century. We do not have court documents. We do not have records of *any* of the criminals the Empire crucified. There are no birth certificates, death certificates, baptismal records, census records, tax records, or anything of that sort. So all in all pretty impressive after all huh?
On your second paragraph:
I wholeheartedly agree that the truth of the Bible has been highjacked by misguided souls who didn't truely understand the message of God but the majority of Christians are not that way at all
God bless
Why is that important? Because the grip this myth has on politics, war, hatred and bigotry as well as finances which could be going toward scientific research and other endeavors in the world rather than in the pockets of liars and castles where little men in funny outfits reside is absolutely disgusting and immoral.
On yoour first para;
*** From a historiography standpoint, this is mostly an 'academic' exercise, since the 'existence' of Jesus of Nazareth could easily be established with only a tiny fraction of our New Testament documents. The mere existence of someone in history is (often) easily established on the basis of small textual samples (sometimes even single paragraphs). The amount of data (especially historically 'incidental') we have about Jesus in the New Testament--and the appearances that the authors were not collusive--gives us a very, very high level of assurance in this matter.
Again, professional and academic scholars of the period -- Christian, Jewish, Secular -- accept the New Testament as an adequate witness, both for historical 'existence' and for many pieces of historical detail about Jesus.
These 4 gospel writers were willing to be put to death over Jesus's death and ressurection and the oldest versions of them are dated to between 30 years and 100 years after the great sacrifice at Calvary.
Furthermore there are historical referecnes to Jesus from non Christian sources such as An important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christian,
Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.
Tacitus who wrote: Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome"
Now from these 3 sources alonewe can see incredible fgrowth of the early Church in a pagan and jewish world by peaceful means. No other faith has developed so incredibly in such a hositle environment by practising the peaceful examples of Jesus whilst he ministered on earth. This is all the more incredible because the romans were executing professed Christians at this time inclding killing by being pulled apart by horses and all they needed to do to avoid this was to recant thier belief!
These references to Jesus are all the more rmarkable as palastine was a remote corner of the roman empire
We have a good deal of information about the polemical and often bitter arguments Christians, Jews, and pagans had with one another in the early centuries. But the early Christians' opponents all accepted that Jesus existed, taught, had disciples, worked miracles, and was put to death on a Roman cross. As in our own day, debate and disagreement centred largely not on the story but on the significance of Jesus.
Suetonius,IN Lives of the Caesars, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the reign of emperor Claudius (c. AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the instigation of Chrestus.....
Josephus
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ." F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother." And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that Josephus actually penned this passage.
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.
Not one cotradcits the gospels nor the letters of Paul.
Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first- or second-century Jewish or pagan religious teacher.
Keep in mind that there really aren't that many records from the 1st century. We do not have court documents. We do not have records of *any* of the criminals the Empire crucified. There are no birth certificates, death certificates, baptismal records, census records, tax records, or anything of that sort. So all in all pretty impressive after all huh?
On your second paragraph:
I wholeheartedly agree that the truth of the Bible has been highjacked by misguided souls who didn't truely understand the message of God but the majority of Christians are not that way at all
God bless
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
littleCJelkton;1354960 wrote: Hiding behind a facade of "God told me", "I know God better" does not make the OT or New T any more real, More to the point much like the Myths i talk about " Which origins date back before the OT of moses, Noah if anything the stories of the OT and New T where influenced maybe even modified by stories of old religions (The Creation of the Greek world, The Ressurection of Osiris, the flood of noah just to name a few). The way god is depicted in many paintings resembles that of Zues or Odin. Many of these adaptations historians and scientist believe were made to help make the conversion process more easier (which is also by the way where most of easter's celebration comes from and why Christmas is december instead of in the summer which is more likley the time in which Jesus was possibly born). Though I personnally do not believe in these tales I do believe in many of the morals that are taught from these tales much as I do with those of mythology, and Tall Tales. Though since many Christans I have meat and at many Christian places of worship I have found that you are not a "true christian" if you only believe in the moral teachings of the book you have to believe in the entire book is a historical text that tells the history of the world. For this reason I am buddihst which allows me not to believe in any fantastical stories about buddha but what he taught by the way buddhism established 500 years before christianity gives it enough time to rach the Mid East more than enough time for Jesus to be influenced by which given the striking similarities especially in Jesus's Pacifist nature some scientist believe could of happen. The point I make is if this or that part of the bible is not some fantastical magic of gods will by an stretched truth about what really happen or even happened at all than that could hold true maybe even more so for the parts that refer to times further in history
Hmm... so many points to address
Hello am I hiding at all?
Lets see........ Norse fables are post Christian let alone post OT
The greek and egyptian flood ideas dated about 1630–1600 BC geologically, was the historical basis for that folklore and if we consider the geneological history recorded in the OT or indeed the Torah and Tulmud the flood of Noahs time was way before that.
Many scientists and historions? lets agree that some do but ny no means even a majority .. just the loud ones! Hey its the devils way!
Easter is about Jesus and is based upon the original jewish calander and nowt to do with any pagan falsities
Yes the date of Christmas is in dispute, many put it in the autumn, However, the Bible does not call for the celebration of the birth of Jesus. this is a catholic church innovation that chrch which developed 600 years afer Christ and dominated the original founding Evangelists and early Church. The Bible calls for focus on the latter of Jesus's life, i.e the last 3 years on earth which was the whole of his ministry and phrophecised in the OT 100's of times. In those 3 short years Jesus fulfilled approx 340 OT prohecies about himself
In fact what fables are you referring to which go beyond 2000 bc? In point of fact all these pagan practises are referred to many times in both the new and older testaments refeering to for example the Romans; Greeks; Egyptians; Baal...
Unlike our Spiritual God most of these gods were geocentric relating to thier location or worshipping plantes and stars or even trees etc or thunder and such tosh
The way God is pictured? Come on! that is just a few painters ideas or imagination The appearance of God is never mentioned in the Bible as such.
As for Buddhism, almost 6 years ago I too entertained the idea that Buddhism was kinda logical but did it bring me peace and a feeling of profound love? No
Does it have an explanation for the origin of this universe and life?
Worst of all there is no sense of what is morally right or wrong, it blurs the distinctions. Very dangerous indeed
In fact it purports to make Gods of us. I finally binned this idea because by Karma if you follow it through to its own internal logical conclusions, one could justify just about anything!
God bless you
Hmm... so many points to address
Hello am I hiding at all?
Lets see........ Norse fables are post Christian let alone post OT
The greek and egyptian flood ideas dated about 1630–1600 BC geologically, was the historical basis for that folklore and if we consider the geneological history recorded in the OT or indeed the Torah and Tulmud the flood of Noahs time was way before that.
Many scientists and historions? lets agree that some do but ny no means even a majority .. just the loud ones! Hey its the devils way!
Easter is about Jesus and is based upon the original jewish calander and nowt to do with any pagan falsities
Yes the date of Christmas is in dispute, many put it in the autumn, However, the Bible does not call for the celebration of the birth of Jesus. this is a catholic church innovation that chrch which developed 600 years afer Christ and dominated the original founding Evangelists and early Church. The Bible calls for focus on the latter of Jesus's life, i.e the last 3 years on earth which was the whole of his ministry and phrophecised in the OT 100's of times. In those 3 short years Jesus fulfilled approx 340 OT prohecies about himself
In fact what fables are you referring to which go beyond 2000 bc? In point of fact all these pagan practises are referred to many times in both the new and older testaments refeering to for example the Romans; Greeks; Egyptians; Baal...
Unlike our Spiritual God most of these gods were geocentric relating to thier location or worshipping plantes and stars or even trees etc or thunder and such tosh
The way God is pictured? Come on! that is just a few painters ideas or imagination The appearance of God is never mentioned in the Bible as such.
As for Buddhism, almost 6 years ago I too entertained the idea that Buddhism was kinda logical but did it bring me peace and a feeling of profound love? No
Does it have an explanation for the origin of this universe and life?
Worst of all there is no sense of what is morally right or wrong, it blurs the distinctions. Very dangerous indeed
In fact it purports to make Gods of us. I finally binned this idea because by Karma if you follow it through to its own internal logical conclusions, one could justify just about anything!
God bless you
-
littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1354977 wrote: Hmm... so many points to address
Hello am I hiding at all?
Lets see........ Norse fables are post Christian let alone post OT
The greek and egyptian flood ideas dated about 1630–1600 BC geologically, was the historical basis for that folklore and if we consider the geneological history recorded in the OT or indeed the Torah and Tulmud the flood of Noahs time was way before that.
Many scientists and historions? lets agree that some do but ny no means even a majority .. just the loud ones! Hey its the devils way!
Easter is about Jesus and is based upon the original jewish calander and nowt to do with any pagan falsities
Yes the date of Christmas is in dispute, many put it in the autumn, However, the Bible does not call for the celebration of the birth of Jesus. this is a catholic church innovation that chrch which developed 600 years afer Christ and dominated the original founding Evangelists and early Church. The Bible calls for focus on the latter of Jesus's life, i.e the last 3 years on earth which was the whole of his ministry and phrophecised in the OT 100's of times. In those 3 short years Jesus fulfilled approx 340 OT prohecies about himself
In fact what fables are you referring to which go beyond 2000 bc? In point of fact all these pagan practises are referred to many times in both the new and older testaments refeering to for example the Romans; Greeks; Egyptians; Baal...
Unlike our Spiritual God most of these gods were geocentric relating to thier location or worshipping plantes and stars or even trees etc or thunder and such tosh
The way God is pictured? Come on! that is just a few painters ideas or imagination The appearance of God is never mentioned in the Bible as such.
As for Buddhism, almost 6 years ago I too entertained the idea that Buddhism was kinda logical but did it bring me peace and a feeling of profound love? No
Does it have an explanation for the origin of this universe and life?
Worst of all there is no sense of what is morally right or wrong, it blurs the distinctions. Very dangerous indeed
In fact it purports to make Gods of us. I finally binned this idea because by Karma if you follow it through to its own internal logical conclusions, one could justify just about anything!
God bless you
By saying God tells you that this book is actually how things are, where God doesn't tell me that, or God tells this person that no that is how things happened, God tells this person that no this is how it happened. Is Hiding the fact that either A there is no God, B there are still is multiple gods, C humans should really stop trying to understand something a god was meant to in the first place or else they begin to misrepresent skew and/or stretch things.
Really, are you even living in this era when has the majority of what you seen around at easter time had anything remotely about jesus's death other than at churches, and often times the pagan traditions of hunting colored eggs and baskets and rabbits are still followed at some churches and by many christians.
I will give you the Norse, but Greek religion originates around 1700-1600 bc the OT 1800 so yes 100 years difference but the fact over the next 1600-1700 plus years the world was ruled by two empires that were of the origins of the Mycenians the OT was in my opinion no doubtetly skewed by those events to relate to Mycenian, Greek Roman tales. The origins religions in Egypt go back way further than that of the OT and the Mesopotamian, and Assyrian which predates even that and infuences almost all religions from the Ancient Greek to current Christianity.
As for justifying just about anything I could say the same thing about christians, muslims, Jews who believe that they can because "God Told them to" "they know god and you dont", and so on.
Buddhism doesn't see the need for explaning the origin of life esential to living your life now, or essential to treating others with the dignity and grace you would expect them to give to you, or to better your self and to help better others for the future.
Hello am I hiding at all?
Lets see........ Norse fables are post Christian let alone post OT
The greek and egyptian flood ideas dated about 1630–1600 BC geologically, was the historical basis for that folklore and if we consider the geneological history recorded in the OT or indeed the Torah and Tulmud the flood of Noahs time was way before that.
Many scientists and historions? lets agree that some do but ny no means even a majority .. just the loud ones! Hey its the devils way!
Easter is about Jesus and is based upon the original jewish calander and nowt to do with any pagan falsities
Yes the date of Christmas is in dispute, many put it in the autumn, However, the Bible does not call for the celebration of the birth of Jesus. this is a catholic church innovation that chrch which developed 600 years afer Christ and dominated the original founding Evangelists and early Church. The Bible calls for focus on the latter of Jesus's life, i.e the last 3 years on earth which was the whole of his ministry and phrophecised in the OT 100's of times. In those 3 short years Jesus fulfilled approx 340 OT prohecies about himself
In fact what fables are you referring to which go beyond 2000 bc? In point of fact all these pagan practises are referred to many times in both the new and older testaments refeering to for example the Romans; Greeks; Egyptians; Baal...
Unlike our Spiritual God most of these gods were geocentric relating to thier location or worshipping plantes and stars or even trees etc or thunder and such tosh
The way God is pictured? Come on! that is just a few painters ideas or imagination The appearance of God is never mentioned in the Bible as such.
As for Buddhism, almost 6 years ago I too entertained the idea that Buddhism was kinda logical but did it bring me peace and a feeling of profound love? No
Does it have an explanation for the origin of this universe and life?
Worst of all there is no sense of what is morally right or wrong, it blurs the distinctions. Very dangerous indeed
In fact it purports to make Gods of us. I finally binned this idea because by Karma if you follow it through to its own internal logical conclusions, one could justify just about anything!
God bless you
By saying God tells you that this book is actually how things are, where God doesn't tell me that, or God tells this person that no that is how things happened, God tells this person that no this is how it happened. Is Hiding the fact that either A there is no God, B there are still is multiple gods, C humans should really stop trying to understand something a god was meant to in the first place or else they begin to misrepresent skew and/or stretch things.
Really, are you even living in this era when has the majority of what you seen around at easter time had anything remotely about jesus's death other than at churches, and often times the pagan traditions of hunting colored eggs and baskets and rabbits are still followed at some churches and by many christians.
I will give you the Norse, but Greek religion originates around 1700-1600 bc the OT 1800 so yes 100 years difference but the fact over the next 1600-1700 plus years the world was ruled by two empires that were of the origins of the Mycenians the OT was in my opinion no doubtetly skewed by those events to relate to Mycenian, Greek Roman tales. The origins religions in Egypt go back way further than that of the OT and the Mesopotamian, and Assyrian which predates even that and infuences almost all religions from the Ancient Greek to current Christianity.
As for justifying just about anything I could say the same thing about christians, muslims, Jews who believe that they can because "God Told them to" "they know god and you dont", and so on.
Buddhism doesn't see the need for explaning the origin of life esential to living your life now, or essential to treating others with the dignity and grace you would expect them to give to you, or to better your self and to help better others for the future.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
littleCJelkton;1354997 wrote: By saying God tells you that this book is actually how things are, where God doesn't tell me that, or God tells this person that no that is how things happened, God tells this person that no this is how it happened. Is Hiding the fact that either A there is no God, B there are still is multiple gods, C humans should really stop trying to understand something a god was meant to in the first place or else they begin to misrepresent skew and/or stretch things.
Really, are you even living in this era when has the majority of what you seen around at easter time had anything remotely about jesus's death other than at churches, and often times the pagan traditions of hunting colored eggs and baskets and rabbits are still followed at some churches and by many christians.
I will give you the Norse, but Greek religion originates around 1700-1600 bc the OT 1800 so yes 100 years difference but the fact over the next 1600-1700 plus years the world was ruled by two empires that were of the origins of the Mycenians the OT was in my opinion no doubtetly skewed by those events to relate to Mycenian, Greek Roman tales. The origins religions in Egypt go back way further than that of the OT and the Mesopotamian, and Assyrian which predates even that and infuences almost all religions from the Ancient Greek to current Christianity.
As for justifying just about anything I could say the same thing about christians, muslims, Jews who believe that they can because "God Told them to" "they know god and you dont", and so on.
Buddhism doesn't see the need for explaning the origin of life esential to living your life now, or essential to treating others with the dignity and grace you would expect them to give to you, or to better your self and to help better others for the future.
I cannot speak about churches who do eater egg hunts unless it is only for the children but it is not something I or my Church practice. The easter celebration is about the defeat of Death and the date is not regular in the modern calander as it is related to the hebrew calander in Jesus's time.
Indeed too many so called people of faith do Kill in the name of thier God but those that do ( including Buddhists) have no clear understanding of the Truth.
I note you have not responded to my comment about how My Faith has given me great peace, and a profound sense of being loved as opposed to when I explored Buddhism.
Bless you
Really, are you even living in this era when has the majority of what you seen around at easter time had anything remotely about jesus's death other than at churches, and often times the pagan traditions of hunting colored eggs and baskets and rabbits are still followed at some churches and by many christians.
I will give you the Norse, but Greek religion originates around 1700-1600 bc the OT 1800 so yes 100 years difference but the fact over the next 1600-1700 plus years the world was ruled by two empires that were of the origins of the Mycenians the OT was in my opinion no doubtetly skewed by those events to relate to Mycenian, Greek Roman tales. The origins religions in Egypt go back way further than that of the OT and the Mesopotamian, and Assyrian which predates even that and infuences almost all religions from the Ancient Greek to current Christianity.
As for justifying just about anything I could say the same thing about christians, muslims, Jews who believe that they can because "God Told them to" "they know god and you dont", and so on.
Buddhism doesn't see the need for explaning the origin of life esential to living your life now, or essential to treating others with the dignity and grace you would expect them to give to you, or to better your self and to help better others for the future.
I cannot speak about churches who do eater egg hunts unless it is only for the children but it is not something I or my Church practice. The easter celebration is about the defeat of Death and the date is not regular in the modern calander as it is related to the hebrew calander in Jesus's time.
Indeed too many so called people of faith do Kill in the name of thier God but those that do ( including Buddhists) have no clear understanding of the Truth.
I note you have not responded to my comment about how My Faith has given me great peace, and a profound sense of being loved as opposed to when I explored Buddhism.
Bless you
-
littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1355145 wrote: I cannot speak about churches who do eater egg hunts unless it is only for the children but it is not something I or my Church practice. The easter celebration is about the defeat of Death and the date is not regular in the modern calander as it is related to the hebrew calander in Jesus's time.
Indeed too many so called people of faith do Kill in the name of thier God but those that do ( including Buddhists) have no clear understanding of the Truth.
I note you have not responded to my comment about how My Faith has given me great peace, and a profound sense of being loved as opposed to when I explored Buddhism.
Bless you
What are you talking about please show me where in buddhist doctrine it is seen as o.k. to resort to violence, name a war in the name of Buddha? If anything buddhist have been on the recieving end of violence, some of which violence is too much for some practitioners of buddhism and they into resort to violence, but that is going against the doctorine, but even that amount of violence those monks have taken part in dwarfs in comparison to the violence taken by "christians". On top of that the violence that buddhist emote are in the name of having the right to believe in the way buddhist want to believe without being demonized by others (Muslims, Jews, Christians whoever). Where as the majority of christian, jewish, and muslim violence is in the name of god and has the underlying theme of "It is alright for me to be violent even kill those of another religion because my god is the real god and I am actually saving them because I am forcing them to convert to my god". Why would I respond to what you believe that is not what I am here to do I am here to say that I am just as much at peace as you say you may be but beyond that point of if I am at peace or you are does not mean that on the matter of creationsism vs evolutionism I can not say creationsist are more wrong then evolutionist, but I do know when trying to understand things about what god may or may not do or may or may not mean is beyond any human's capability you, me, Peter, Paul, Buddha, Mosses, the Pope, your minister bisop or rabbi. I can understand as a human a human ran experiement and human found evidence as do most people which I think is why evolution is a much more viable explanation for the history of nature at least for the last billion or so years of earth's history, but not the history of the entire universe of which like god may be something we never fully understand, nor do I think when taken in all the other things we could do to better ourselves and others should be something we look to deeply in, or take over seriously especially not to the point to where I demote demonize or even become violent against those who don't think the same things about me when it comes to ideas about the history of the universe, god(s), ecetera.
Indeed too many so called people of faith do Kill in the name of thier God but those that do ( including Buddhists) have no clear understanding of the Truth.
I note you have not responded to my comment about how My Faith has given me great peace, and a profound sense of being loved as opposed to when I explored Buddhism.
Bless you
What are you talking about please show me where in buddhist doctrine it is seen as o.k. to resort to violence, name a war in the name of Buddha? If anything buddhist have been on the recieving end of violence, some of which violence is too much for some practitioners of buddhism and they into resort to violence, but that is going against the doctorine, but even that amount of violence those monks have taken part in dwarfs in comparison to the violence taken by "christians". On top of that the violence that buddhist emote are in the name of having the right to believe in the way buddhist want to believe without being demonized by others (Muslims, Jews, Christians whoever). Where as the majority of christian, jewish, and muslim violence is in the name of god and has the underlying theme of "It is alright for me to be violent even kill those of another religion because my god is the real god and I am actually saving them because I am forcing them to convert to my god". Why would I respond to what you believe that is not what I am here to do I am here to say that I am just as much at peace as you say you may be but beyond that point of if I am at peace or you are does not mean that on the matter of creationsism vs evolutionism I can not say creationsist are more wrong then evolutionist, but I do know when trying to understand things about what god may or may not do or may or may not mean is beyond any human's capability you, me, Peter, Paul, Buddha, Mosses, the Pope, your minister bisop or rabbi. I can understand as a human a human ran experiement and human found evidence as do most people which I think is why evolution is a much more viable explanation for the history of nature at least for the last billion or so years of earth's history, but not the history of the entire universe of which like god may be something we never fully understand, nor do I think when taken in all the other things we could do to better ourselves and others should be something we look to deeply in, or take over seriously especially not to the point to where I demote demonize or even become violent against those who don't think the same things about me when it comes to ideas about the history of the universe, god(s), ecetera.
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
littleCJelkton;1355155 wrote: What are you talking about please show me where in buddhist doctrine it is seen as o.k. to resort to violence, name a war in the name of Buddha? If anything buddhist have been on the recieving end of violence, some of which violence is too much for some practitioners of buddhism and they into resort to violence, but that is going against the doctorine, but even that amount of violence those monks have taken part in dwarfs in comparison to the violence taken by "christians". On top of that the violence that buddhist emote are in the name of having the right to believe in the way buddhist want to believe without being demonized by others (Muslims, Jews, Christians whoever). Where as the majority of christian, jewish, and muslim violence is in the name of god and has the underlying theme of "It is alright for me to be violent even kill those of another religion because my god is the real god and I am actually saving them because I am forcing them to convert to my god". Why would I respond to what you believe that is not what I am here to do I am here to say that I am just as much at peace as you say you may be but beyond that point of if I am at peace or you are does not mean that on the matter of creationsism vs evolutionism I can not say creationsist are more wrong then evolutionist, but I do know when trying to understand things about what god may or may not do or may or may not mean is beyond any human's capability you, me, Peter, Paul, Buddha, Mosses, the Pope, your minister bisop or rabbi. I can understand as a human a human ran experiement and human found evidence as do most people which I think is why evolution is a much more viable explanation for the history of nature at least for the last billion or so years of earth's history, but not the history of the entire universe of which like god may be something we never fully understand, nor do I think when taken in all the other things we could do to better ourselves and others should be something we look to deeply in, or take over seriously especially not to the point to where I demote demonize or even become violent against those who don't think the same things about me when it comes to ideas about the history of the universe, god(s), ecetera.
Just as I did not say that Buddist doctrine ( wherever that comes from) does or does not contain ideas to start war,, I know the Bible does not for sure, only some peoples misinterpretation of it particualry from the OT which is only really comprehensible with the help of the Holy Spirit, referred to in the Bible as Comforter and wisdom to name 2 aspects.
However, the New testement is emphatically about Loving one another.
I also earler in this thread explained that my only issue with evolution is that we dod not evolve (humans) I have no argument with the rest so why bring that up again?
The Bible is a highly organic book being literaly Gods word and re reading whilst praying brings greater understanding.
For example I only this week realized that Psalm 69 is Jesus speaking about his forthcoming ( by 1000 + years) crucifixion.
On thing science has shown about the universe is that it did have a beginning which chimes with the Creation as outlined in the Bible.
Isn;t the Buddist idea that of an always existing universe?
How do you know you are at peace as much as me and what about the profound sense of being loved?
Nirvana is here in earth for those that have eyes to see
The Bible contains true phrophecies including a 2000 plus year old foretelling of this rebirth if the State of Israel and also points to the current upheavel in the musim mediteraean states
The Bible in addtion to being the work of God's lobe for us is also a highly spiritual lesson in the battle for our souls betwen us and satan with God as Protector for those who seek.
Buddah does not sem to recognise the apalling evil in this world.
The Bible also clearly states that satan can appear as light and goodness but cannot mimic true Love
Just as I did not say that Buddist doctrine ( wherever that comes from) does or does not contain ideas to start war,, I know the Bible does not for sure, only some peoples misinterpretation of it particualry from the OT which is only really comprehensible with the help of the Holy Spirit, referred to in the Bible as Comforter and wisdom to name 2 aspects.
However, the New testement is emphatically about Loving one another.
I also earler in this thread explained that my only issue with evolution is that we dod not evolve (humans) I have no argument with the rest so why bring that up again?
The Bible is a highly organic book being literaly Gods word and re reading whilst praying brings greater understanding.
For example I only this week realized that Psalm 69 is Jesus speaking about his forthcoming ( by 1000 + years) crucifixion.
On thing science has shown about the universe is that it did have a beginning which chimes with the Creation as outlined in the Bible.
Isn;t the Buddist idea that of an always existing universe?
How do you know you are at peace as much as me and what about the profound sense of being loved?
Nirvana is here in earth for those that have eyes to see
The Bible contains true phrophecies including a 2000 plus year old foretelling of this rebirth if the State of Israel and also points to the current upheavel in the musim mediteraean states
The Bible in addtion to being the work of God's lobe for us is also a highly spiritual lesson in the battle for our souls betwen us and satan with God as Protector for those who seek.
Buddah does not sem to recognise the apalling evil in this world.
The Bible also clearly states that satan can appear as light and goodness but cannot mimic true Love
-
littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Creationism?
What are your babbleing about now as always with christians you hide behind the facade of the bible telling you this with no more evidence to know that what you know that what you read in the bible that someone wrote down, about what someone said, about what some guy said God told him is actually god's word. Than I or anyone else can say that the universe was created by the big bang elctromagnetic reactions with crystaline solids in to carbon atoms and the creation if microbes. On top of that you try to separate the OT from the New but with out one you can not fully understand the next, so to say you only follow one is too say your like half christian, and to say Buddha (why can't you christians ever spell it right I don't say ogd or juses) does not recognise evil, the whole buddhist philosophy is about recognising evil within you and in the world around you. The point buddhist try to make that christian's aren't able to understand is that they can't ever understand what God want's or means (especially if there getting god's words from a book written by a man), any more than one who is not enligtened understand enlightenmen, but most christians I have come across like you are more worried about trying to understand things like god, without understanding things as they should. Why do I need a profound sense of being loved to be at peace? The prophecies in the bible are no more true than of those of Nostradomus as a prophecy in the real sense is a conundrum much like alot of the bible as if it were a prophecy we would know about it before it happen and thus could act apon it thus not allowing the event to happen causing the prophecy which says this will happen to be false. Though if you say something will happen like lets say a guy says it will rain, if you wait long enough it will rain, so it is only after the fact that people ever recognize it as a prophecy. The more we continue the more you will continue to not only show your ignorance about other religions, but your own as well.
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
littleCJelkton;1355193 wrote: What are your babbleing about now as always with christians you hide behind the facade of the bible telling you this with no more evidence to know that what you know that what you read in the bible that someone wrote down, about what someone said, about what some guy said God told him is actually god's word. Than I or anyone else can say that the universe was created by the big bang elctromagnetic reactions with crystaline solids in to carbon atoms and the creation if microbes. On top of that you try to separate the OT from the New but with out one you can not fully understand the next, so to say you only follow one is too say your like half christian, and to say Buddha (why can't you christians ever spell it right I don't say ogd or juses) does not recognise evil, the whole buddhist philosophy is about recognising evil within you and in the world around you. The point buddhist try to make that christian's aren't able to understand is that they can't ever understand what God want's or means (especially if there getting god's words from a book written by a man), any more than one who is not enligtened understand enlightenmen, but most christians I have come across like you are more worried about trying to understand things like god, without understanding things as they should. Why do I need a profound sense of being loved to be at peace? The prophecies in the bible are no more true than of those of Nostradomus as a prophecy in the real sense is a conundrum much like alot of the bible as if it were a prophecy we would know about it before it happen and thus could act apon it thus not allowing the event to happen causing the prophecy which says this will happen to be false. Though if you say something will happen like lets say a guy says it will rain, if you wait long enough it will rain, so it is only after the fact that people ever recognize it as a prophecy. The more we continue the more you will continue to not only show your ignorance about other religions, but your own as well.
Thanks for your kind and articulate words,
If as you state your credo is about recognising the evil within oneself, where does that evil come from?
What is the source of that evil according to your philopsohy?
What do you mean that the universe was created by the Big bang? The big bang was part of the creation of everything?
Nostradamuses prohecies are coded and highly ambiguous but the Bible clearlky stated that Israel would be a state again and this time will last until the end,
Does he have anything to compare with this small verse from Isaiah 27: 6 - In days to come Jacob will take root,
Israel will bud and blossom
and fill all the world with fruit.
Be aware fruit in the Bible means works for God, similarly Israel was the Name of Jacob as well as the Nation.
The major prophets of the Bible have much written about what is to come and Include Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah and Revelations.
I am surprised that You do not recognise that true peace in ones heart is an intrinisc part of Love, why do you belittle Love so?
Also what wisdom does your creddo teach you?
I do hope you can respond directly to my questions this time rather than just giving a generalistic scattergun diatribe?
God bless you
Thanks for your kind and articulate words,
If as you state your credo is about recognising the evil within oneself, where does that evil come from?
What is the source of that evil according to your philopsohy?
What do you mean that the universe was created by the Big bang? The big bang was part of the creation of everything?
Nostradamuses prohecies are coded and highly ambiguous but the Bible clearlky stated that Israel would be a state again and this time will last until the end,
Does he have anything to compare with this small verse from Isaiah 27: 6 - In days to come Jacob will take root,
Israel will bud and blossom
and fill all the world with fruit.
Be aware fruit in the Bible means works for God, similarly Israel was the Name of Jacob as well as the Nation.
The major prophets of the Bible have much written about what is to come and Include Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah and Revelations.
I am surprised that You do not recognise that true peace in ones heart is an intrinisc part of Love, why do you belittle Love so?
Also what wisdom does your creddo teach you?
I do hope you can respond directly to my questions this time rather than just giving a generalistic scattergun diatribe?
God bless you
-
littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1355219 wrote: Thanks for your kind and articulate words,
If as you state your credo is about recognising the evil within oneself, where does that evil come from?
What is the source of that evil according to your philopsohy?
What do you mean that the universe was created by the Big bang? The big bang was part of the creation of everything?
Nostradamuses prohecies are coded and highly ambiguous but the Bible clearlky stated that Israel would be a state again and this time will last until the end,
Does he have anything to compare with this small verse from Isaiah 27: 6 - In days to come Jacob will take root,
Israel will bud and blossom
and fill all the world with fruit.
Be aware fruit in the Bible means works for God, similarly Israel was the Name of Jacob as well as the Nation.
The major prophets of the Bible have much written about what is to come and Include Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah and Revelations.
I am surprised that You do not recognise that true peace in ones heart is an intrinisc part of Love, why do you belittle Love so?
Also what wisdom does your creddo teach you?
I do hope you can respond directly to my questions this time rather than just giving a generalistic scattergun diatribe?
God bless you
You are going on again, I am sorry to say your Isaiah verse is no more exact than any or Nostradamus's prophecies in fact if anything it could be taken as a sayin of optimism rather than a prophecy for those looking for more than it is like too many christians do it becomes a prophecy just which is the same thing Nostradamus followers do with his prophecies. Buddhism if anything is about staying balanced that balance is peace I don't belittle love, but as a buddhist I point out that Love is at the positve polar side in which Hate is at the other and thus is why I find so many christians have a hatred or at least a dislike rising in varing degrees towards hatred against those who do not believe in the same way they do. The wisdom Buddhism teaches is to recognize these polarities and where they are and the mindset of person in each polarity, that way you can stay calm and at peace by staying balanced in your approach and not be polarized. You are scatterguning it just as much as I have at least I have stated my own beliefs from buddhism, but you quote you believe in the bible, but quoted previously you don't believe in parts of the OT but yet use parts of the OT and Parts of the NEW one to back up your statements about prophecies showing the pick and choose hypocrisy the majority of christians I have talked to has with the sheild this sheild of because they have faith in god they can be a hypocrite. I continue conversation with those like you and other christians because the more we talk, the more I stay in a reasonable balance as is my "creedo" as you want to call it brings out the hipocracy of your statements, which to saddens me to see that Christianity and what Jesus taught has lead to a faith with so much polarity and hypocracy far from what I think Jesus wanted which was much more about the Golden Rule, and teaching others to have the same respect in what others believe(even if they are not jewish or christian ) as you do christians. I believe that if Jesus was god on earth what he said should and did should be a guide for how to live your life here on earth, but again I take pity on the majority of christians that use instead to explain and understand things that are beyond or before your life here on earth.
If as you state your credo is about recognising the evil within oneself, where does that evil come from?
What is the source of that evil according to your philopsohy?
What do you mean that the universe was created by the Big bang? The big bang was part of the creation of everything?
Nostradamuses prohecies are coded and highly ambiguous but the Bible clearlky stated that Israel would be a state again and this time will last until the end,
Does he have anything to compare with this small verse from Isaiah 27: 6 - In days to come Jacob will take root,
Israel will bud and blossom
and fill all the world with fruit.
Be aware fruit in the Bible means works for God, similarly Israel was the Name of Jacob as well as the Nation.
The major prophets of the Bible have much written about what is to come and Include Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah and Revelations.
I am surprised that You do not recognise that true peace in ones heart is an intrinisc part of Love, why do you belittle Love so?
Also what wisdom does your creddo teach you?
I do hope you can respond directly to my questions this time rather than just giving a generalistic scattergun diatribe?
God bless you
You are going on again, I am sorry to say your Isaiah verse is no more exact than any or Nostradamus's prophecies in fact if anything it could be taken as a sayin of optimism rather than a prophecy for those looking for more than it is like too many christians do it becomes a prophecy just which is the same thing Nostradamus followers do with his prophecies. Buddhism if anything is about staying balanced that balance is peace I don't belittle love, but as a buddhist I point out that Love is at the positve polar side in which Hate is at the other and thus is why I find so many christians have a hatred or at least a dislike rising in varing degrees towards hatred against those who do not believe in the same way they do. The wisdom Buddhism teaches is to recognize these polarities and where they are and the mindset of person in each polarity, that way you can stay calm and at peace by staying balanced in your approach and not be polarized. You are scatterguning it just as much as I have at least I have stated my own beliefs from buddhism, but you quote you believe in the bible, but quoted previously you don't believe in parts of the OT but yet use parts of the OT and Parts of the NEW one to back up your statements about prophecies showing the pick and choose hypocrisy the majority of christians I have talked to has with the sheild this sheild of because they have faith in god they can be a hypocrite. I continue conversation with those like you and other christians because the more we talk, the more I stay in a reasonable balance as is my "creedo" as you want to call it brings out the hipocracy of your statements, which to saddens me to see that Christianity and what Jesus taught has lead to a faith with so much polarity and hypocracy far from what I think Jesus wanted which was much more about the Golden Rule, and teaching others to have the same respect in what others believe(even if they are not jewish or christian ) as you do christians. I believe that if Jesus was god on earth what he said should and did should be a guide for how to live your life here on earth, but again I take pity on the majority of christians that use instead to explain and understand things that are beyond or before your life here on earth.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
Creationism?
Pls tell me where I stated I do not believe in the NT or even parts of it. Perhaps you have me mixed me up with someone else?
Where is your love? Your messages come accross as if you are angry with respect,
What does your philosophy say is the source of evil as you have not answered that question.
What in your opinion is my hypocrasy as a Christian?
What things are beyond my life tyhat you refer to?
Your welocme to cut and past thios post and put your answers after each of mine, It would make reading your responses easier and perhaps you will respond to all my questions
Please do class classify me with the majority of Christians you speak with
Where did Jesus state that we should treat everyone equally apart from turning the other cheek to our enemies?
Where and what is the Spirit in your belief system?
God bless you
Where is your love? Your messages come accross as if you are angry with respect,
What does your philosophy say is the source of evil as you have not answered that question.
What in your opinion is my hypocrasy as a Christian?
What things are beyond my life tyhat you refer to?
Your welocme to cut and past thios post and put your answers after each of mine, It would make reading your responses easier and perhaps you will respond to all my questions
Please do class classify me with the majority of Christians you speak with
Where did Jesus state that we should treat everyone equally apart from turning the other cheek to our enemies?
Where and what is the Spirit in your belief system?
God bless you
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littleCJelkton
- Posts: 1215
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:57 pm
Creationism?
freethinkingthuthseeker;1355246 wrote: Pls tell me where I stated I do not believe in the NT or even parts of it. Perhaps you have me mixed me up with someone else?
Where is your love? Your messages come accross as if you are angry with respect,
What does your philosophy say is the source of evil as you have not answered that question.
What in your opinion is my hypocrasy as a Christian?
What things are beyond my life tyhat you refer to?
Your welocme to cut and past thios post and put your answers after each of mine, It would make reading your responses easier and perhaps you will respond to all my questions
Please do class classify me with the majority of Christians you speak with
Where did Jesus state that we should treat everyone equally apart from turning the other cheek to our enemies?
Where and what is the Spirit in your belief system?
God bless you
You can be the source of evil, I can Ahso or anyone else can be, but you also can be the source of good in my belief you really need to look just a little bit in the buddhism before casting it aside, at least for understanding which was one of Jesus's big points is understanding.
I am going to stop this continue this discussion with you anymore because your questeion "Where did Jesus state we should treat evereyone equally?" if I you are asking a non-christian to explain that to you not only does it show me you are far from being a christian, but you in some way question the fact that everyone should be treated equally and a person with those questions needs to find their own answers, before asking me for them. So i implore you to relook at christianity and human equality so that you can come back and we can have discussion in which information is sent and recieved on both sides not just one.
Where is your love? Your messages come accross as if you are angry with respect,
What does your philosophy say is the source of evil as you have not answered that question.
What in your opinion is my hypocrasy as a Christian?
What things are beyond my life tyhat you refer to?
Your welocme to cut and past thios post and put your answers after each of mine, It would make reading your responses easier and perhaps you will respond to all my questions
Please do class classify me with the majority of Christians you speak with
Where did Jesus state that we should treat everyone equally apart from turning the other cheek to our enemies?
Where and what is the Spirit in your belief system?
God bless you
You can be the source of evil, I can Ahso or anyone else can be, but you also can be the source of good in my belief you really need to look just a little bit in the buddhism before casting it aside, at least for understanding which was one of Jesus's big points is understanding.
I am going to stop this continue this discussion with you anymore because your questeion "Where did Jesus state we should treat evereyone equally?" if I you are asking a non-christian to explain that to you not only does it show me you are far from being a christian, but you in some way question the fact that everyone should be treated equally and a person with those questions needs to find their own answers, before asking me for them. So i implore you to relook at christianity and human equality so that you can come back and we can have discussion in which information is sent and recieved on both sides not just one.