Was Jesus Rich or Poor?

eword · Post by **eword** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:02 pm

Then opening their treasure bags, they(the wisemen) presented to him(Jesus) gifts - gold, frankincense and myrrh - Matthew 2:11(AMP)

While still a child, Jesus was given treasure of very high value by the wisemen. This was wealth. This treasure could have been converted into a huge sum of money. And this treasure was carried in more than one treasure bag. This may suggest a substantial amount of treasure. What did Jesus and his family do with this treasure? Did they invest it? How did this treasure impact their lives? Did Jesus start life poor, after receiving wealth as a child?

Some thought that, since Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling him, buy what we need for the festival, or that he should give something to the poor - John 13:29(AMP)

Jesus had someone(Judas), whose specific job was to manage the finances of Jesus. How many poor people have someone specifically in charge of their money? Why would anyone need another person to manage their finance,s when they only have a little money? For Jesus to have a money manager, is this an indication that he had a lot of money?

And in the last part of the above scripture, why would the disciples think, Jesus was talking about giving to the poor, if Jesus himself was also poor? And why would such a thought cross their minds? Was Jesus in the habit of giving to the poor?

But Judas Iscariot, the one of his disciples, who was about to betray him, said, why was the perfume not sold for 300 Denarri and that money given to the poor? - John 12:4(AMP)

If Jesus and his disciples, were poor themselves, why would they talk about selling the perfume and giving the money to the poor? Why were Jesus and his disciples, concerned with giving to the poor, if they themselves badly needed money? Why would you give away, what you don't have enough of? In those days, 1 Denarius was one days wages and so 300 Denarri was the wages for three hundred days work. How many poor people, can suggest or give away the wages, for three hundred days work? Why would they want to give away, that much money, if their own finances were in trouble?

And(Judas) having the money bag, he took for himself, what was put into it - John 12:6(AMP)

While managing the finances for Jesus, Judas Iscariot, used to steal some for himself. Why would Judas feel confident, that his stealing will not be detected, if Jesus had less money? Why would anyone, steal from a small fund and believe it won't be noticed? Is this an indication, that the finances of Jesus were too large, to easily keep track of?

And he(Jesus) appointed twelve(disciples) to continue to be with him - Mark 3:14(AMP)

Jesus was responsible for the welfare of twelve grown men plus himself. How many poor people can take care of twelve men plus themselves? If Jesus was broke, busted and disgusted, how could he manage this? And why would twelve grown men leave their families and occupations, to follow a man with no means of supporting them or himself? How could Jesus convince twelve grown men to leave their previous lives and join his ministry?

As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man named Matthew, sitting at the tax collector's office; and he said to him, be my disciple. And Matthew rose and followed - Matthew 9:9(AMP)

The present Bible is a summary of the original and it doesn't give us all the little details. But it gives us enough information to draw honest conclusion. So, did Matthew just instantly abandon, the tax office and the source of his and perhaps his family's livelihood, to follow Jesus? Were there negotiations prior to Matthew leaving the tax office? Did Jesus make Matthew a better offer? And why would matthew abandon what he had, if Jesus was offering less? So, if Jesus made a better offer, how did Jesus manage that? Matthew must have been an educated professional man, to be working as a tax collector. How do you convince an educated professional man to leave his job and follow you?

And immediately, he(Jesus) called out to them(the fishermen) and they left their father Zebedee in the boat, with the hired men(employees) and went off after him - Mark 1:20(AMP)

Here again, did the fishermen just leave their father and their employees, as soon as Jesus called? Did Jesus, first make them a reasonable offer and which they accepted? How could these fishermen abandon their father, their business and it's employees for something less rewarding? What did Jesus offer them? And how was Jesus able to make his offer? These men weren't just fishing for fun. They were professional fishermen. This was a big operation, they even had employees, besides themselves. How many poor people have employees?

And as he Jesus was passing by, he saw Lev, son of Alphaeus, sitting at the tax office, and he said to him, follow me - Mark 2:14(AMP)

How could people, who were gainfully employed quit their jobs or businesses and join Jesus if he had nothing? And why did Jesus recruit people with management experience? Why didn't he just go to the poor neighborhood and get people who had no jobs? Was Jesus looking for a certan kind of people, to help him manage his ministry and it's finances? And why was Jesus sure, he could attract such people into his ministry?

And leaving the throng, they(the disciples) took him(Jesus) with them, as he was, in the boat. And other boats were with him - Mark 4:36(AMP)

In the above scripture, it says, that Jesus was in a boat, accompanied by other boats. We don't know, if Jesus rented or owned these boats, but it must have cost a significant sum of money, to acquire or rent and operate a number of boats. How did Jesus and his disciples manage this? How many poor people travel around accompanied by other boats or an entourage?

But he(Jesus) was in the stern of the boat, asleep on a cushion(pillow) - Mark 4:38(AMP)

Jesus was asleep, relaxing comfortably with his head resting on a cushion or pillow, while his disciples or followers steered the boat. Is this an image of a poor man?

I(Jesus) came, that they(mankind) may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance, to the full, till it overflows - John 10:10(AMP)

If Jesus was poor, how could he convince people, that he came so that the people may have lives of abundance? How would people believe, that jesus could tell them, how to prosper, if he was poor himself? How many people would listen, to a poor man telling them, how to improve their lives?

And when they(the Guards) had crucified him(Jesus), they divided and distributed his garments, among themselves by casting lots - Matthew 27:35(AMP)

Why did the guards have to cast lots to determine, who was going to get which piece of Jesus's clothes or if any at all? And why did the guards all want the garments of Jesus? If Jesus was poor, would the guards have fought over his clothes? How many times, have you witnessed or heard of a fight over a poor man's clothes? Were the garments of Jesus of a very high quality that everyone wanted them? And how did Jesus afford such garments if he was poor? - Death and Life - Facts Versus Fiction and Myth

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:55 pm

I think Jesus was a dot com millionaire.

Wow. This is the first time I've ever heard a supposedly spiritual person trying to prove that Jesus had money. Is being poor a bad thing? Would it make Jesus better if he was rich? I thought it made him seem better to be unconcerned with wealth.

Wait. Don't answer that. I've gotten a weeks worth of amusement as it is. I don't know if I can handle any more absurdity unless John Cleese makes an appearance.

xyz · Post by **xyz** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:11 am

eword;1347059 wrote: Then opening their treasure bags, they(the wisemen) presented to him(Jesus) gifts - gold, frankincense and myrrh - Matthew 2:11(AMP)

While still a child, Jesus was given treasure of very high value by the wisemen.
It no doubt came in handy funding the subsequent stay in Egypt.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:32 am

Jesus "Treasure Bags" Christ. Also known as TB HeyZeus. AKA The Big J. AKA Jack Trump. AKA Jimmy Jimmy KokoPuff. Wanted in ten countries for crimes of passion.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:10 am

So the rich Jesus said. "blessed are the poor in spirit (but rich in assets)..."? He sounds more like the CEO of a major corporation than a savior for all humanity.

binbag · Post by **binbag** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:25 am

.

.

Jesus did not gather up material riches on earth.

bb

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:09 pm

Jesus also said that one cannot serve both God and money.

Nevertheless there were no wise men. This is the problem of looking and reading the Bible in a literal sense instead reading is as metaphor. Such a reading leads to all kinds of absurdities as above. No trip to Egypt either. All of this is from the OT.

Shalom

Ted

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:16 pm

eword;1347059 wrote:

While still a child, Jesus was given treasure of very high value by the wisemen. This was wealth. This treasure could have been converted into a huge sum of money. And this treasure was carried in more than one treasure bag. This may suggest a substantial amount of treasure. What did Jesus and his family do with this treasure?

The Wise Men were truly wise and had asked for gift receipts when they purchased the gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Next day, Joseph rode the donkey to the mall and exchanged it all for an Xbox. This is where the "X" in Xmas comes from.

True story!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:37 pm

Richard Bell;1347159 wrote: The Wise Men were truly wise and had asked for gift receipts when they purchased the gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Next day, Joseph rode the donkey to the mall and exchanged it all for an Xbox. This is where the "X" in Xmas comes from.

True story!Sombitch!

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:38 pm

I heard jesus really like Eggs that is why the apostles had to hide them when they herd of his resurrection, when Jesus found out about this he turned them all to rabbits.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:52 pm

eword;1347059 wrote:

But he(Jesus) was in the stern of the boat, asleep on a cushion(pillow) - Mark 4:38(AMP)

Jesus was asleep, relaxing comfortably with his head resting on a cushion or pillow, while his disciples or followers steered the boat. Is this an image of a poor man?

You might want to do a survey on how many poor people have pillows.

eword · Post by **eword** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:19 pm

Att: Koan

If you disagree with a particular viewpoint and would like to be taken seriously, you have a responsibility to present evidence or facts to the contrary. Take a close look at the available evidence, forget about what you think or what everyone you know thinks or says. It is the available evidence, that matters. Anyone can say or think anything, but where is the proof or evidence to support it?

I have presented scriptural evidence, from which honest conclusions can be drawn, but you have presented none to discredit my case? Why should anyone take you seriously?

It is not a crime to be poor, but do not confuse poverty with being spiritually right. Poverty has nothing to do with being spiritually right or wrong. Your economic status does not determine your spiritual status.

The portrayal of Jesus, needs to be based on what is known and not based on, what someone would want him to be. Could Jesus or anyone realistically run his ministry or similar operation without substantial finances?

Att: Ahso!

I would appreciate it more, if you would cite scripture to make your case. However, I believe you are refering to the scripture below:

Matthew 5:3(AMP) - Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The key word is blessed. The opposite of blessed is cursed. If you are not blessed, you are cursed. Now, Adam, the first representative of the human race, was spiritually alive or rich, before he transgressed, but when he committed high treason in the garden, he plunged all humanity into spiritual death or poverty. That is why in John 3:3 and John 3:7, Jesus said, everyone must be born again from spiritual death or poverty to spiritual life.

So, Jesus was saying, that those who realize, that they are spiritual dead or poor are fortunate, because that would motivate them to seek spiritual life, which is the entry point to God's blessings. And those who don't know they are spiritual dead or poor are unfortunate, because they won't see the need to change for the better.

Att: binbag

Please present evidence or scriptures to support your claim. It is easier to respond to available information, than personal opinions.

Att: Ted

There is a vast difference between serving money and needing money. No one can operate successfully, in organized societies without using money. You can use money, without the money using you. The fact is, in order to promote or carry out a project, whether religious or secular, one needs money. And no one said Jesus was serving money.

Money is not evil or bad, it simply does whatever we want to use it for, good or bad. You can do a lot of good with money, than without money. Money is like a kitchen knife, it can do both good and bad.

According to the record, in my Bible, the wisemen existed and Jesus did go to egypt temporarily. You may think this is a fable, even though the record suggests otherwise, but that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Att: Richard Bell

Thanks for adding some humor to this contentious topic!

Att: yaaarrrgg

The pillow or cushion is not the issue. The point is, Jesus travelled with an entourage, that attended to his needs and he did not have to do everything himself. That suggests, someone with more than modest means.

And by the way, thanks for commenting.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:32 pm

There is nothing factual about anything you write, eword. Your whole premise is based on a fictional story, and you are only trying to compare who knows the story better. Unfortunately for you, you come in last. But stay with it because by the time you leave FG you'll be quite good at the understanding the bible story.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:21 pm

yeah, there's no point quoting scripture when you try to escape what the bible says by claiming the sky and earth don't meet.

The advice you are giving isn't "forget what you think" it's "forget to think"

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:21 pm

eword

You want factual evidence? There was no exodus as described in the Bible. The desert has been combed finely for the last 200 years and there is not one shred of evidence. Joshua could not have attacked Jericho. It was a derelict uninhabited city that had been previously destroyed. Romes kept immaculate records and there is no evidence of the killing of the innocent children. It did not happen. Any reasonable book on Biblical archaeology and/or history will confirm these.

There are two creation stories both different. I doubt it happened both ways. There are two Noah stories. In both these cases the oral stories cam from two different sources and perhaps even more. Judas apparently died in two different ways after the betrayal of Jesus. Either he hung himself or he stumbled somehow and split his guts all over the place.

I have dozens if not hundreds of facts. I can give names and titles if you really want but I suspect I would be wasting my time and yours. Learn of what you speak before you speak. Do some bona fide research on all of the issues. Do not commit the heresy of saying that God cannot change his mind or that he cannot do something new in the world when He/She/It chooses to do so. When one places the Bible above God and the Risen One, that one engages in idolatry; "bondage to the book". That is an attempt to limit God.

Now look for the deeper more powerful meanings in the sacred scriptures. Look beneath the myths, legends etc. and you will find a profound and powerful faith.

Shalom

Ted

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:37 pm

a dozen is far off from hundreds I think.

Are you saying you have factual hard evidence that can be viewed, smelled, tasted, and/or touched ( other than the bible "stories") that will prove that God has a mind, God does.doesn't change it, God does new things or is set to certain rules, God has or doesn't have limits?

Even if you find that "profound faith" faith no matter how profound is not equal to facts/evidence. I do not have faith that 0 = 0.1 = 1, the sky is blue, I have trees outside my house, the Sun is the center of the solar system within the galaxy that is in the universe there are facts and evidence to support this.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:24 pm

littleCJ

Typical thinking resulting from one of the most grievous mistakes of the enlightenment. If it can't be studied and measured etc. it is not true.

Shalom

Ted

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:40 pm

Ted;1347346 wrote: littleCJ

Typical thinking resulting from one of the most grievous mistakes of the enlightenment. If it can't be studied and measured etc. it is not true.

Shalom

TedTruth and reality are two different things, Ted. Belief in something may be internalized as truth, but that does not make the thing real. The brain apparently has various mechanisms, one being illusion, which aids in survival and reproduction of our species in a variety of ways, and taken to the extreme may be counterproductive to those same ends.

Religion and God belief is indeed an illusion and myth, but that does not make it bad. However, in these times we are living, it's increasingly apparent that we as a species are challenging those myths and beliefs, and that is probably due to our evolution as well.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:09 pm

Ahso

Fortunately a great many scientists to not agree with that statement. For example emotions can neither be seen nor studied. Just because they are an internal matter does not destroy their reality. Davies, McGrath, Peacock, Mario Beauregard and Denyse O'leary, Tallis, Collins (head of world Genome project), Burch, Jill Bolt Taylor and dozens of other scientists as well as other highly education and extremely intelligent men and women.

I would agree that truth and reality are not necessarily the same thing. It is interesting that Stephen Hawking has recently said that he has been wrong and is going to have to rethink much of what he has said in the past especially the very nature of reality.

Shalom

Ted

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:17 pm

I didn't intend to insinuate you or any other believer lacks intelligence. Emotions are indeed a real and important function of the brain, but they are adaptations which serve evolutionary purposes for the good of possibly all living species'.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:27 pm

Ahso

No offense taken. I'm simply pointing out that even the very nature of reality is being questioned.

Unfortunately the word "believe or belief" has been wrongly used for a long time. In theological circles faith and belief are not at all the same. Belief is generally used to imply correct belief in dogma or doctrine but Christianity was never originally intended to be a belief system. "Faith would be a better. It meant a deep-seated understanding, knowledge, trust and feeling about their place in creation. Christianity was intended and founded upon faith not belief. The same basically hold true for most of the world's great faith. All were founded upon the two tenets of justice and compassion. It is too bad that many could not have stuck with that. There might be less conflict in the world today.

Shalom

Ted

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:34 pm

Ahso

Thus I take issue with eword because he does not represent the original Christian faith. He seems to be pushing belief. This in no way hearkens back to the church of the Apostles. Fundamentalism is a human creation founded in the late 19th and early 20th Cent. It has created a belief system that to my way of thinking and that of many others is not part of the Christian Church as originally constituted by the Apostles.. It is not for me to judge and I leave that up to whatever is the "Ultimate Reality". This is a phrase used by one of the world's great theological thinkers.

Shalom

Ted

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:34 pm

Faith Faith (f[=a]th), n. [OE. feith, fayth, fay, OF. feid,

feit, fei, F. foi, fr. L. fides; akin to fidere to trust, Gr.

pei`qein to persuade. The ending th is perhaps due to the

influence of such words as truth, health, wealth. See Bid,

Bide, and cf. Confide, Defy, Fealty.]

1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is

declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his

authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.

[1913 Webster]

2. The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of

another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he

utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of

any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth.

[1913 Webster]

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:36 pm

Ahso

That is what I said. It has been misused over many years. (Harvey Cox)

Shalom

Ted

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:42 pm

Now to the OP. Of course Jesus was poor. He was born in a low class family-an artisan class. He even said he had no place to lay his head. As for the rich gifts of the birth story goes the story itself is midrash. He worked with the poor, the impoverished, the disenfranchised, sinners, publicans, widows, orphans etc. A rich Jesus is another late human invention which does not square with history and prostitutes. He was even referred to as a glutton and drunkard.

Shalom

Ted

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:45 pm

Faith is strong belief, even to the extent that some have forsaken all they've known to follow an ideal. I have faith everyday, it's an adaptation, but as I said, as a species it seems we are now drawing lines around faith and limiting its influence. Religion and belief in God is slowly dying, and that, I think, is an evolutionary process.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:51 pm

Ahso

Religion and faith are dying is what some want. The research shows that yes institutionalized religion is dying but there is an ever increasing number of people in this world who are seeking spirituality which really ought to be the object of all great faiths. As one of the 21st century thinkers H. O'Driscoll has said all great faiths began as a search for spirituality and they eventually end up institutionalizing. I guess that means round two is in the future.

Shalom

Ted

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:55 pm

Ahso

I am in full agreement that evolution has played a great part in life but it is far to overrated when it comes to some topics. The search for spirituality has been shown to be part of life in earliest man. It has not died out. That is just wishful thinking on the part of some.

I have on my shelf an interesting book titled "The Twilight of Atheism". That too has been around as long as man and I doubt that will die out either.

As far as faith and belief go I've made my point and can quote if anyone wants.

Shalom

Ted

binbag · Post by **binbag** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:12 pm

eword;1347228 wrote:

Att: binbag

Please present evidence or scriptures to support your claim. It is easier to respond to available information, than personal opinions.

Att: eword

You mean you don't know. Blimey eword, you need to do some Bible studying.

Tip:

If you offer up a sincere short prayer before you study, ask God.... to open your mind, to give you wisdom and to give you assistance as you search for answers, you'll find it rather helpful.

Att: eword

eword;1347228 wrote: personal opinions
Prove all things to yourself and please don't make judgments of others statements before you prove things to yourself.

Wishing you all the best with your study.

bb

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:37 pm

Ted;1347346 wrote: littleCJ

Typical thinking resulting from one of the most grievous mistakes of the enlightenment. If it can't be studied and measured etc. it is not true.

Shalom

Ted

How do people make cakes the eggs ,milk, sugar, ect.., are all measured out, and people follow the recipe all the time using the same measurements over, and over again and they make a Cake. They eat the cake it taste good. Wait I know I just beleive God made the cake for us and poof there it is (No Egg, No Chiken, No Cow, No milk, No Grain, No feilds, No farmers, No Tractors, Nothing that goes in to making the ingredients that goes in to the cake.).

I love that you call me typical when none of you preachy hacks are original. We all can see the hypocracies you will use, The endless Biblical spamming you use, and the "if you believe it's real it's real unless it goes against the God I believe in" BS you will pull. Go ahead though try to impress us and show us something new. Though short of revealing a material maniefested God, or ressurected Jesus I doubt you will be able to show us something these other self-proclaimed, internet-crusading, holy apothecaries haven't already pushed on to threads here, on FB, and almost every other forum I have been on.

eword · Post by **eword** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:54 pm

Att: Ahso!

How can you arrogantly claim, that my post is fiction, without presenting a single shred of evidence or scripture to butress your claim? My case is supported by scripture. What is your case supported by.

If the bible is part fact and part fiction, how is everyone supposed to know that? Why would God create a situation, that will create confusion? Why didn't God tell us which part is fiction and which isn't? And how can God expect to hold us to account, if he never made himself clear?

Att: Koan

Once again, stop making claims, that you can't substantiate or provide scripture for.

Att: Ted

I'm an eager scholar and like to learn. If you have sources, that support your claims, feel free to email them. And if the information or sources, you have, can dicredit my positions on the bible conclusively, I will admit it.

If you really study the ministry of Jesus and the early church, you will discover, that it is consistent with my position. My position, represents the original christian faith, backed by scripture after scripture.

Do you have any scripturally evidence to support your claim, that Jesus was poor? Do you really believe, that the son of the richest man in the universe will live in poverty? How many billionaires's children live in poverty? Do you seriously believe, that God created the wealth in the world, to be enjoyed by others, but not his own son?

Through out my study of the life of Jesus, I have never came across one scripture, that suggests Jesus was poor? But I found many scriptures, that indicate the opposite.

Att: LittleCJelkton

Don't be ridiculous. No one has seen God. But If you believe the bible, like I do, there is ample scripture, that tells us who God is, what he does and doesn't do.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:56 pm

No one has seen Zues, Odin, Isis, Ra, or Xenu, and there are plenty of scriptures for them too, Ahso and Koan doesn't use scripture as evidence for what he says as the scriptures are fiction, and you don't use fiction to non-fiction. You still have yet to give me something new so I and plenty of others on here will probably take your future post as just more Yak.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:05 pm

Personally I have never said the scriptures whether of Christianity or any other great faith are just fiction. In fact I do not hold to that view. Teachers have been using myth, legend etc to teach truths for more than 2000 years.

Shalom

Ted

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:17 pm

eword

If you knew anything about the history of Christianity you would know quite well that your view of the ancient church does not reflect the church of the Apostles. It does not even come close. Harvey Cox, Marcus Borg, J. D. Crossan, Paul Johnston, Jonathon Hill, Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman, John Drane, Walter Brueggamann, Bart Ehrman and dozens of others.

Shalom

Ted

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:48 pm

eword;1347385 wrote:

Don't be ridiculous. No one has seen God. But If you believe the bible, like I do, there is ample scripture, that tells us who God is, what he does and doesn't do.
Moses saw his butt.

Exodus 33:23

And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:49 pm

koan

A real live one. LOL

Shalom

Ted

eword · Post by **eword** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:52 pm

Att: LittleCJelkton

No realistic and productive debate about christianity, can honestly take place without referencing biblical scriptures. You can't have christianity without biblical scriptures and you can't have apple pie without apples. Any debate that excludes biblical scriptures can not be about christianity. Call it something else, but don't pretend, that it is christianity. And I can not continue to participate in a so-called christian debate minus biblical scriptures.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:07 pm

Ted;1347539 wrote: koan

A real live one. LOL

Shalom

Ted

;)

Of course Abraham sat face to face in chats with God fairly often but, having worked with actors who don't fear the extreme close up nearly as much as the butt shot, I'm thinking that Moses was on a more personal basis with God than Abe.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:15 pm

eword;1347540 wrote: Att: LittleCJelkton

No realistic and productive debate about Christianity, can honestly take place without referencing biblical scriptures. You can't have Christianity without biblical scriptures and you can't have apple pie without apples. Any debate that excludes biblical scriptures can not be about Christianity. Call it something else, but don't pretend, that it is Christianity. And I can not continue to participate in a so-called christian debate minus biblical scriptures.

why do you think we are debating Christianity and not the biblical scriptures? That's the problem with the christian nut jobs I come across is the scriptures and interpreting every word, meaning, sub-mean, point, and counter point to them is more important then their own actions, thoughts, opinions, wants, or needs. As a Buddhist there is a great parable for this.

It is as if a man had been wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and kinsmen were to get a surgeon to heal him, and he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I know by what man I was wounded, whether he is of the warrior caste, or a brahmin, or of the agricultural, or the lowest caste. Or if he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I know of what name of family the man is — or whether he is tall, or short or of middle height … Before knowing all this, the man would die.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:20 pm

Words are symbols. What you decide they mean is entirely up for debate.

What is being discussed is not what the bible actually says. It's hard to disagree on what words are on a given page. It's quite easy to disagree on what the assembly of words actually says.

What, for example, does it mean when the bible says Abraham sat face to face with God? Apparently some people think it doesn't mean that Abraham sat face to face with God.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:39 pm

I can definitely imagine what church, if he belongs to one, he is affiliated with. I've been there and done that--evil.

I can assume now that he has no intentions of following up on anything or scholars or books. After all he has made up his mind and doesn't want to be upset and bothered by the facts That is a total waste of both his time and mine.

Shalom

Ted

eword · Post by **eword** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:33 pm

Att: Koan

1 John 4:12(AMP) - No man has at any time seen God

No man includes everyone.

Exodus 33:20(AMP) - But, he(God) said, you can not see my face, for no man shall see me and live

Again, no one has seen or knows what God looks like.

Genesis 15:17(AMP) - When the sun had gone down and a thick darkness had come on, behold, a smoking oven and a flaming torch passed between those pieces(animal sacrifices).........

Whenever God has visited his people, he has appeared in the form of something like a fire, a cloud, a torch, plume of smoke and so forth, but none of these are the real God. But these different formations have served as a substitute of the actual God.

So, if anyone claims to have seen God, whether from the front or back, they most likely saw the the back side or front side of a fire, a cloud, a torch, plume of smoke and other such formations.

John 4:4(AMP) - God is spirit

You can't see a spirit.

Att: LittleCJelkton

In christianity an argument needs to be backed by biblical scripture to have credibility. You can't remove the bible from christianity and still have christianity.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:43 pm

eword;1347640 wrote:

In christianity an argument needs to be backed by biblical scripture to have credibility. You can't remove the bible from christianity and still have christianity.

so in debating one I debate the other so why did you even mention it as it doesn't matter? Your going in circles again.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:34 am

I think it's curious that 30 pieces of silver is about $600 in today's dollars. I would think if he had money (assuming the historical existence of Jesus) he would have just hired goons to do his dirty work destroying the temple, and would not have been double crossed by his friend over such a piddly amount of money.

As far as Bible stories go, I recall Jesus told his followers to give up all their material possessions and to go with him. He told them not to turn down a free meal or donations. He preached anti-materialism and ranted about rich people. He also said, essentially, that the more money a person has the worse of a person they become.

If he were rich, it would mean he was a world-class hypocrite.

eword · Post by **eword** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:49 pm

Att: yaaarrrgg

It would be very helpful, if you could cite the biblical scriptures, associated with the bible stories you are refering to.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:31 pm

eword;1347780 wrote: Att: yaaarrrgg

It would be very helpful, if you could cite the biblical scriptures, associated with the bible stories you are refering to.

I'm thinking of when Jesus calls the disciples to become "fishers of men" and the sermon on the mount. These are hardly obscure teachings. It's a bit like asking for a citation for Jonah and the Whale.

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”"

from Matthew 19:23-24

"the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."

from: 1 Timothy 6:10

But you might be right. Perhaps Jesus was a world-class hypocrite and ignored everything he preached about on wealth and materialism.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:54 pm

yaaayaarrg

You have more patience for his nonsense then I have. He goes in circles and like a good politician can write reams and say absolutely nothing and further he has no intentions of doing so.

Shalom

Ted

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:22 pm

Ted;1347807 wrote: yaaayaarrg

You have more patience for his nonsense then I have. He goes in circles and like a good politician can write reams and say absolutely nothing and further he has no intentions of doing so.

Shalom

Ted

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:29 pm

eword;1347640 wrote: Att: Koan

1 John 4:12(AMP) - No man has at any time seen God

No man includes everyone.

Exodus 33:20(AMP) - But, he(God) said, you can not see my face, for no man shall see me and live

Again, no one has seen or knows what God looks like.

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

So take that!

You may think the part you quoted is somehow quoted from a better source than the part I quoted but they are, in fact from the same book. So instead of proving that no one has seen God, you've proven that the bible can't be taken literally. How can one verse be true yet another not? Hmmmmmm. Guess it's not a verbatim account of true events.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:44 pm