The Bible isn't just about salvation or going to heaven. For the most part, the Bible deals with the situations or circumstances, that confront us, while we are still here on earth. The Bible is really a 'how to' manual. Besides teaching us how to get saved, it instructs us, how to get healed, how to be protected, how to live a long life and so on.
For example, if you want healing, you first find out, what the Bible says about healing. And then, you make a list of healing scriptures. Remember, the Bible says, "So then, faith comes by hearing the word, and hearing by the word of God' - Romans 10:17(NKJV). You need to hear, the healing word in order to have faith for healing and the same goes for any other need that you may have.
Now, armed with the list of healing scriptures, you READ or SPEAK them ALOUD to yourself DAILY and as many times as time allows or as you wish, until the sickness or pain is gone. My suggestion, is to keep up this practice, even after you are healed, so as to ward off future attacks. And do not read or speak the scriptures mentally, but open your mouth and let your ears hear, those divine words. Lastly, I have attached a link, that takes you to lists of scriptures, that cover many areas of your life and I believe you will find them extremely rewarding - Death and Life - Facts Versus Fiction and Myth
The Word
The Word
eword
Welcome. I do hope you enjoy your stay in the garden. One thing you need to be aware of is that many people think differently then others. Not all think alike.
Now I checked out the link provided above. Interesting and perhaps controversial. At one point it says that God does not change His/Her/ Its mind. Then I check into places like Exodus 3d2:14; Amos 7:3,6; Jonah 3:9; Jer. 18:8, 26:13. God apparently even says that He/She/It will repent of the evil he has put to people! Very interesting indeed. God doesn't change His/Her/Its mind????
Shalom
Ted
Welcome. I do hope you enjoy your stay in the garden. One thing you need to be aware of is that many people think differently then others. Not all think alike.
Now I checked out the link provided above. Interesting and perhaps controversial. At one point it says that God does not change His/Her/ Its mind. Then I check into places like Exodus 3d2:14; Amos 7:3,6; Jonah 3:9; Jer. 18:8, 26:13. God apparently even says that He/She/It will repent of the evil he has put to people! Very interesting indeed. God doesn't change His/Her/Its mind????
Shalom
Ted
The Word
I must confess I find this site a little hard to take. There are some 22 000 Christian denominations around the world. Many of them claim to have a good grasp or handle on the truth. Kind of like of all the millions of Christians around the world I am the only one with the absolute truth. They wish! Yes the Bible claims to be the word of God and so does the Qur'an along with many of the other worlds religious writings.
Even the word "believe" has its problems. The word used in the ancient Greek manuscripts is "pistis" which is wrongly translated into believe when in fact it means "trust". It is not about right belief but trusting in the Divine.
Another comment on the Bible being "The Word of God". The phrase "The Word of God" rightly belongs to One, the Word made flesh or the Risen One. It does not belong to a book. When it is used to describe a book it becomes a form of idolatry.
Just some things to think about.
Shalom
Ted
Even the word "believe" has its problems. The word used in the ancient Greek manuscripts is "pistis" which is wrongly translated into believe when in fact it means "trust". It is not about right belief but trusting in the Divine.
Another comment on the Bible being "The Word of God". The phrase "The Word of God" rightly belongs to One, the Word made flesh or the Risen One. It does not belong to a book. When it is used to describe a book it becomes a form of idolatry.
Just some things to think about.
Shalom
Ted
The Word
Study to present yourself to God approved, a workman who has no cause, to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing, the word of truth - 2 Timothy 2:15(AMP)
The scripture above, cautions us to correctly analyze and accurately divide the word, that means there is a possibility of wrongly analyzing and inaccurately dividing the word.
Deuteronomy 28:1-57 & Leviticus 26:3-33(NIV)
When God created the world, he set in motion specific divine laws that affect everyone negatively or positively, whether you know about them or not. Just like the law of gravity, it does not discriminate. If you coperate with these laws, they work in your favor, but if you don't they work against you. God doesn't have to come after you, each time you violate his word or law. There are consequences, built into the system, that kick in automatically. God can not change his word or law, but you can change your actions in relation to his word or law. And whenever you change, God through his word is obligated to respond accordingly. God and his word never change, it is you or mankind that changes or has to change. God simply does what he already promised to do, if we do certain things. Change is always on our part. God's system responds, to what it was designed to do from the beginning.
If we confess our sins, He(God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness - 1 John 1:9(NKJV)
According to divine law, if you confess your sins and change your ways, you have to be granted forgiveness. Now, God doesn't change whenever we repent or confess our sins or change our ways. What the word or the law has already promised is simply carried out. Changes on our part should not be confused with God changing. God for his part honors what he promised, if we meet the conditions.
Exodus 32:14 - The Israelites had sinned against God or violated his word or law by making and worshiping the molded calf. Once again, there are automatic consequences for sinning against God or violating his word. But on the other hand, if the violators or those who have sinned ask for forgiveness, God according to his own word or law must grant them mercy. Moses asked for forgiveness by citing the covenant or contract Abraham on behalf of the Israelites made with God. God did not change, he did what his own word or law was already programmed to do. When a crime is committed, the government or the law doesn't change, the laws that have been on the books forever are simply applied.
Amos 7:3,6 - Here we have a similar scenario. As a result of transgressions punishment was about to befall the transgressors, but by crying for mercy, they were spared. The people changed. God did not change. Once again, the word had to do what it says.
Jonas 3:9 - The same thing here, the people avoided disaster by turning away from their evil ways. The people changed their ways and God did what his word or law is permanently programmed to do. God's word or law is on auto-pilot.
Jeremiah 18:8, 26:13 - The nation of Israel had a choice to make. It was the nation of Israel that had to change. And whatever choice they made, had it's benefits or consequences and God according to his word would honor their choice. The Israelites had to choose to be with God or against him. God did not have to choose or change. His word or law will automatically deal with whatever choice mankind makes.
The scripture above, cautions us to correctly analyze and accurately divide the word, that means there is a possibility of wrongly analyzing and inaccurately dividing the word.
Deuteronomy 28:1-57 & Leviticus 26:3-33(NIV)
When God created the world, he set in motion specific divine laws that affect everyone negatively or positively, whether you know about them or not. Just like the law of gravity, it does not discriminate. If you coperate with these laws, they work in your favor, but if you don't they work against you. God doesn't have to come after you, each time you violate his word or law. There are consequences, built into the system, that kick in automatically. God can not change his word or law, but you can change your actions in relation to his word or law. And whenever you change, God through his word is obligated to respond accordingly. God and his word never change, it is you or mankind that changes or has to change. God simply does what he already promised to do, if we do certain things. Change is always on our part. God's system responds, to what it was designed to do from the beginning.
If we confess our sins, He(God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness - 1 John 1:9(NKJV)
According to divine law, if you confess your sins and change your ways, you have to be granted forgiveness. Now, God doesn't change whenever we repent or confess our sins or change our ways. What the word or the law has already promised is simply carried out. Changes on our part should not be confused with God changing. God for his part honors what he promised, if we meet the conditions.
Exodus 32:14 - The Israelites had sinned against God or violated his word or law by making and worshiping the molded calf. Once again, there are automatic consequences for sinning against God or violating his word. But on the other hand, if the violators or those who have sinned ask for forgiveness, God according to his own word or law must grant them mercy. Moses asked for forgiveness by citing the covenant or contract Abraham on behalf of the Israelites made with God. God did not change, he did what his own word or law was already programmed to do. When a crime is committed, the government or the law doesn't change, the laws that have been on the books forever are simply applied.
Amos 7:3,6 - Here we have a similar scenario. As a result of transgressions punishment was about to befall the transgressors, but by crying for mercy, they were spared. The people changed. God did not change. Once again, the word had to do what it says.
Jonas 3:9 - The same thing here, the people avoided disaster by turning away from their evil ways. The people changed their ways and God did what his word or law is permanently programmed to do. God's word or law is on auto-pilot.
Jeremiah 18:8, 26:13 - The nation of Israel had a choice to make. It was the nation of Israel that had to change. And whatever choice they made, had it's benefits or consequences and God according to his word would honor their choice. The Israelites had to choose to be with God or against him. God did not have to choose or change. His word or law will automatically deal with whatever choice mankind makes.
The Word
What you have given me is your interpretation of an already existent interpretation. What you are implying is that you alone have the ultimate answer and everyone else's interpretation is not as good as your interpretation. This is a position that God alone can take. What makes you think that your interpretation is the true interpretation?
I could question several words used but I'll stick with one for the moment. What is meant by the word "sin"? What is considered a sin in one culture is not considered a sin in another????
Shalom
Ted
I could question several words used but I'll stick with one for the moment. What is meant by the word "sin"? What is considered a sin in one culture is not considered a sin in another????
Shalom
Ted
The Word
There is no indication that "eword" read anything. It appears to be purely expositional... eword, are you reading or just "write only"?
The Word
koan
I could go into my library and quote from many of the sacred scriptures around the world. Would that pass as "proof texting". I think you are correct though. Not one of my questions has been answered nor are their any comments on the points I made. Proselytizing?????
Shalom
Ted
I could go into my library and quote from many of the sacred scriptures around the world. Would that pass as "proof texting". I think you are correct though. Not one of my questions has been answered nor are their any comments on the points I made. Proselytizing?????
Shalom
Ted
The Word
Any meaningful debate or argument regarding Christianity or the Bible, must be centered and backed by scripture. I haven't claimed that my interpretation is the ultimate answer. I have simply presented my case supported by scripture. And you do not have to accept it. I never expected everyone to agree with me. You can take it or leave it.
If you have additional information or evidence, in your attempt to discredit my case, feel free to present it, for examination. I am humble enough, that if you can provide facts or scriptures that convincingly discredit my case, I will admit it. But so far, that has not happened. Waiting to hear from you.
As for what constitutes sin, let us not go down that elementary road. Any serious christian knows what sin is and what sin isn't. This point does not deserve further elaboration. If you have really read the Bible as oppoosed to hearing about it, you should know what sin is.
If you have additional information or evidence, in your attempt to discredit my case, feel free to present it, for examination. I am humble enough, that if you can provide facts or scriptures that convincingly discredit my case, I will admit it. But so far, that has not happened. Waiting to hear from you.
As for what constitutes sin, let us not go down that elementary road. Any serious christian knows what sin is and what sin isn't. This point does not deserve further elaboration. If you have really read the Bible as oppoosed to hearing about it, you should know what sin is.
The Word
you say:
eword;1346518 wrote:
Deuteronomy 28:1-57 & Leviticus 26:3-33(NIV)
When God created the world, he set in motion specific divine laws that affect everyone negatively or positively, whether you know about them or not. Just like the law of gravity, it does not discriminate. If you coperate with these laws, they work in your favor, but if you don't they work against you. God doesn't have to come after you, each time you violate his word or law. There are consequences, built into the system, that kick in automatically. God can not change his word or law, but you can change your actions in relation to his word or law. And whenever you change, God through his word is obligated to respond accordingly. God and his word never change, it is you or mankind that changes or has to change. God simply does what he already promised to do, if we do certain things. Change is always on our part. God's system responds, to what it was designed to do from the beginning.
If we confess our sins, He(God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness - 1 John 1:9(NKJV)
According to divine law, if you confess your sins and change your ways, you have to be granted forgiveness. Now, God doesn't change whenever we repent or confess our sins or change our ways. What the word or the law has already promised is simply carried out. Changes on our part should not be confused with God changing. God for his part honors what he promised, if we meet the conditions.
koan's notes on the OT say:
Deuteronomy 28
One of the ways God promises to bless the people is to cause their enemies to rise up against them so that they can be smote. I don't think I'm the only one who is missing Genesis and Exodus when God used to do His own smiting. Is this because He promised Noah not to flood the world again? Because He was still smiting places like Sodom after that. Did He just slowly wean Himself from the bad habit?
There is a list of all the stuff that can happen to make you feel like your life is big pile of dung. These are the things that will not only happen if the people don't follow God's rules, but are bound to happen because the people have shown a consistent inability to follow God's rules for an extended time period. So, if you like foreshadowing as I do, this is all the pile of dung stuff about to happen to all the people in the near future and intermittently forever after.
and
Leviticus 26
Here God gives a short list of what they get if they do, and a pretty hefty warning about what happens if they don't, follow the rules.
Pros
Rain and the resulting crops
Safety from harmful animals and enemy armies
Fertility
So much food they'll have to throw some away
Pride
Cons
Endless fear
Slavery
Slaughter at the hands of their enemies
Plagues
Children eaten by wild animals
Barren land
Constant hunger
They'll eat their own children... the ones the animals didn't get
Kind of puts a spin on God stating that the people shall offer Him sacrifices willingly. But, just to show He's not unreasonable, He states that if the people bring down His punishments their ancestors, if they confess that they sinned and repent, will only be slightly hated. God talks about choosing to remember His promises to their ancestors as if forgetting those promises is a more convenient thing to do.
Also, at this point in the bible, God: not so good at fulfilling promises. Not so much that He changes His mind as He "chooses to forget"
eword;1346518 wrote:
Deuteronomy 28:1-57 & Leviticus 26:3-33(NIV)
When God created the world, he set in motion specific divine laws that affect everyone negatively or positively, whether you know about them or not. Just like the law of gravity, it does not discriminate. If you coperate with these laws, they work in your favor, but if you don't they work against you. God doesn't have to come after you, each time you violate his word or law. There are consequences, built into the system, that kick in automatically. God can not change his word or law, but you can change your actions in relation to his word or law. And whenever you change, God through his word is obligated to respond accordingly. God and his word never change, it is you or mankind that changes or has to change. God simply does what he already promised to do, if we do certain things. Change is always on our part. God's system responds, to what it was designed to do from the beginning.
If we confess our sins, He(God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness - 1 John 1:9(NKJV)
According to divine law, if you confess your sins and change your ways, you have to be granted forgiveness. Now, God doesn't change whenever we repent or confess our sins or change our ways. What the word or the law has already promised is simply carried out. Changes on our part should not be confused with God changing. God for his part honors what he promised, if we meet the conditions.
koan's notes on the OT say:
Deuteronomy 28
One of the ways God promises to bless the people is to cause their enemies to rise up against them so that they can be smote. I don't think I'm the only one who is missing Genesis and Exodus when God used to do His own smiting. Is this because He promised Noah not to flood the world again? Because He was still smiting places like Sodom after that. Did He just slowly wean Himself from the bad habit?
There is a list of all the stuff that can happen to make you feel like your life is big pile of dung. These are the things that will not only happen if the people don't follow God's rules, but are bound to happen because the people have shown a consistent inability to follow God's rules for an extended time period. So, if you like foreshadowing as I do, this is all the pile of dung stuff about to happen to all the people in the near future and intermittently forever after.
and
Leviticus 26
Here God gives a short list of what they get if they do, and a pretty hefty warning about what happens if they don't, follow the rules.
Pros
Rain and the resulting crops
Safety from harmful animals and enemy armies
Fertility
So much food they'll have to throw some away
Pride
Cons
Endless fear
Slavery
Slaughter at the hands of their enemies
Plagues
Children eaten by wild animals
Barren land
Constant hunger
They'll eat their own children... the ones the animals didn't get
Kind of puts a spin on God stating that the people shall offer Him sacrifices willingly. But, just to show He's not unreasonable, He states that if the people bring down His punishments their ancestors, if they confess that they sinned and repent, will only be slightly hated. God talks about choosing to remember His promises to their ancestors as if forgetting those promises is a more convenient thing to do.
Also, at this point in the bible, God: not so good at fulfilling promises. Not so much that He changes His mind as He "chooses to forget"
The Word
I, the Lord, do not change - Malachi 3:6(NIV)
If God himself says, he never changes, who should we believe, you, someone else or God himself?
God who cannot lie - Titus 1:2(NKJV)
If God were to change, that means he would have lied. But the Bible says God cannot lie. So who should we believe? Either you believe, what the bible says or you don't.
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should change his mind - Numbers 23:19(NIV)
The bible says, God doesn't change his mind. Who should we believe? If God ever changed his mind, that will contradict the above scripture.
The Lord will never break his covenant, nor alter the word, that came out of his lips - Psalm 89:34(NKJV)
If God will not alter the word, that came out of his lips, that means He won't change. You can choose, who to believe. But I will trust, what the Bible says.
With the Lord, our God, there is no injustice, partiality or bribery - 2 Chronicles 19:7(NIV)
If God changed or failed to keep His promises, that will be injustice, but the bible says, with God there is no injustice. So God cannot change.
God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons - Acts 10:34(AMP)
According to the Bible, God treats everyone the same. That means he stays the same.
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace - 1 Corinthians 14:33(NKJV)
If God contradicted himself or his word or changed in any way, that would be confusion. The Bible says, God is not confused.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever - Hebrews 13:8(NIV)
Like father, like son. Jesus too does not change. Just as he healed people when he walked the earth, he still heals people today from heaven, if they believe his healing word.
If God himself says, he never changes, who should we believe, you, someone else or God himself?
God who cannot lie - Titus 1:2(NKJV)
If God were to change, that means he would have lied. But the Bible says God cannot lie. So who should we believe? Either you believe, what the bible says or you don't.
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should change his mind - Numbers 23:19(NIV)
The bible says, God doesn't change his mind. Who should we believe? If God ever changed his mind, that will contradict the above scripture.
The Lord will never break his covenant, nor alter the word, that came out of his lips - Psalm 89:34(NKJV)
If God will not alter the word, that came out of his lips, that means He won't change. You can choose, who to believe. But I will trust, what the Bible says.
With the Lord, our God, there is no injustice, partiality or bribery - 2 Chronicles 19:7(NIV)
If God changed or failed to keep His promises, that will be injustice, but the bible says, with God there is no injustice. So God cannot change.
God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons - Acts 10:34(AMP)
According to the Bible, God treats everyone the same. That means he stays the same.
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace - 1 Corinthians 14:33(NKJV)
If God contradicted himself or his word or changed in any way, that would be confusion. The Bible says, God is not confused.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever - Hebrews 13:8(NIV)
Like father, like son. Jesus too does not change. Just as he healed people when he walked the earth, he still heals people today from heaven, if they believe his healing word.
The Word
So, eword, your idea of debate is not to critically discuss the bible, but to see who quotes the bible more?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Word
eword
What you are presenting is your interpretation and quite clearly you think you have the absolutely correct one. I offered some comments about God changing his mind yet you ignored them. I could point out dozens of contradictions in the Bible but at this point feel it would be a waste of my time. You have made a paper god out of the Bible and this is a form of idolatry.
I would suggest that you are here to proselytize and not discuss and that does not go over well in the garden.
Now do I take the Bible seriously? Absolutely but I do not take it literally.
A Christian pluralist.
Shalom
Ted
What you are presenting is your interpretation and quite clearly you think you have the absolutely correct one. I offered some comments about God changing his mind yet you ignored them. I could point out dozens of contradictions in the Bible but at this point feel it would be a waste of my time. You have made a paper god out of the Bible and this is a form of idolatry.
I would suggest that you are here to proselytize and not discuss and that does not go over well in the garden.
Now do I take the Bible seriously? Absolutely but I do not take it literally.
A Christian pluralist.
Shalom
Ted
The Word
yep. looks like "write only"
Too bad. I was wondering what eword's take on God making us eat our children was.
Too bad. I was wondering what eword's take on God making us eat our children was.
The Word
If my interpretation is incorrect, point out why scripturally. You cannot honestly debate christianity or the bible without quoting specific scripture to illustrate your point.
I have already abundantly addressed the issue of God not changing his mind. If you need further clarification, outline your arguments in a clear easy to understand manner, point by point. And please present the dozens of contradictions in a coherent manner and by scripture and I will be very happy to analyze them.
And please take your time in responding, do not rush, research your arguments sufficiently.
Eagerly waiting to hear from you.
I have already abundantly addressed the issue of God not changing his mind. If you need further clarification, outline your arguments in a clear easy to understand manner, point by point. And please present the dozens of contradictions in a coherent manner and by scripture and I will be very happy to analyze them.
And please take your time in responding, do not rush, research your arguments sufficiently.
Eagerly waiting to hear from you.
The Word
eword
You have not answered to my comments. It would appear that for me to start listing all you ask for would be a waste of my time. As far as God changing His/Her/Its mind you have completely ignored the quotes I gave you. It is, I believe, called selective vision.
As far as proof texting goes I do not subscribe to that approach. I have not set the Bible up to be a paper pope. Two simple issues "sin" and God changing his mind still remain unresolved.
The Bible also seems to encourage war crimes. Num 31.
Shalom
Ted
You have not answered to my comments. It would appear that for me to start listing all you ask for would be a waste of my time. As far as God changing His/Her/Its mind you have completely ignored the quotes I gave you. It is, I believe, called selective vision.
As far as proof texting goes I do not subscribe to that approach. I have not set the Bible up to be a paper pope. Two simple issues "sin" and God changing his mind still remain unresolved.
The Bible also seems to encourage war crimes. Num 31.
Shalom
Ted
The Word
Ex. 32:14 "And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people."
Amos 7:3 & 6 "The Lord relented concerning this; said It shall not be,' said the Lord".
Jer. 18:8 "but if that nation, concerning, which I have spoken, turns from its evil , I will change my mind . . ."
Jer. 26:13 ". . . and the Lord will change his mind . . ."
It would appear that God can and does change His/Her/Its mind. That would appear to be a contradiction in the Bible!!
Shalom
Ted
Amos 7:3 & 6 "The Lord relented concerning this; said It shall not be,' said the Lord".
Jer. 18:8 "but if that nation, concerning, which I have spoken, turns from its evil , I will change my mind . . ."
Jer. 26:13 ". . . and the Lord will change his mind . . ."
It would appear that God can and does change His/Her/Its mind. That would appear to be a contradiction in the Bible!!
Shalom
Ted
The Word
In 2 Samuel 24:16 we find that the Lord repented of the evil that he was about to visit on Jerusalem.
The Word
Ted, with all due respect, your post #17, has already been answered sufficiently in post #4 & 10. Did you read them?
Numbers 31 - 'The Lord said to moses, avenge the Israelites on the Midianites.........execute the Lord's vengeance on the Midianites for seducing Israel.........
After the fall of Adam, the first representaive of all mankind, in the garden, God set in motion a plan to redeem mankind. Even though, the aim of this plan was to redeem all mankind, God started his project with one group of people, the Jews or the Israelites. God chose them to be the foundation of his program, which eventually was to save all humanity.
At this point in history and in the bible, only the Jews or the Israelites were God's people. That is Why, in the old testament, there are many references to the term 'God of Israel'. It was only after, Jesus came, died and rose, that the door was open for everyone to be part of God's people.
Now, the Midianites had succeed in seducing a significant number of Israelites from following and worshipping the 'God of Israel' to worshipping idols. The Midianites actions threatened to derail, God's plan of redemption. As far as, God was concerned, this was a very serious attack on his designs or plans and an equally serious response was required. God wasn't going to let the Midianites sabotage the salvation of all mankind!
There are always consequences for going against God and his word. This is divine law. Sometimes the punishment is immediate, but other times it comes later. Sooner or later the price must be paid. It may seem barbaric, uncivilized or war crimes, as you put it, but it is divine justice.
The midianites could have avoided divine justice by simply not interfering with God's people and therefore God's plan. The choice was theirs to make.
2 Samuel 24:14 - And David said to Gad, I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercies are many and great...
David realized that he and his people had seriously offended God and as a result judgement was upon them. In the above scripture, David surrenders himself into the hands of God and proclaims how great and many the mercies of God are. In other words, david was repenting and asking for forgiveness. David praised God as disaster loomed.
2 Samuel 24:16 - And when the angel, stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented of the evil and reversed his judgement.....
Accordind to God's own word or law, whenever anyone sincerely repents and ask for forgiveness, he or she must be granted mercy or forgiveness. David met that standard. So God had to do what his word or law says. God did not change, he simply honored his word.
Numbers 31 - 'The Lord said to moses, avenge the Israelites on the Midianites.........execute the Lord's vengeance on the Midianites for seducing Israel.........
After the fall of Adam, the first representaive of all mankind, in the garden, God set in motion a plan to redeem mankind. Even though, the aim of this plan was to redeem all mankind, God started his project with one group of people, the Jews or the Israelites. God chose them to be the foundation of his program, which eventually was to save all humanity.
At this point in history and in the bible, only the Jews or the Israelites were God's people. That is Why, in the old testament, there are many references to the term 'God of Israel'. It was only after, Jesus came, died and rose, that the door was open for everyone to be part of God's people.
Now, the Midianites had succeed in seducing a significant number of Israelites from following and worshipping the 'God of Israel' to worshipping idols. The Midianites actions threatened to derail, God's plan of redemption. As far as, God was concerned, this was a very serious attack on his designs or plans and an equally serious response was required. God wasn't going to let the Midianites sabotage the salvation of all mankind!
There are always consequences for going against God and his word. This is divine law. Sometimes the punishment is immediate, but other times it comes later. Sooner or later the price must be paid. It may seem barbaric, uncivilized or war crimes, as you put it, but it is divine justice.
The midianites could have avoided divine justice by simply not interfering with God's people and therefore God's plan. The choice was theirs to make.
2 Samuel 24:14 - And David said to Gad, I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercies are many and great...
David realized that he and his people had seriously offended God and as a result judgement was upon them. In the above scripture, David surrenders himself into the hands of God and proclaims how great and many the mercies of God are. In other words, david was repenting and asking for forgiveness. David praised God as disaster loomed.
2 Samuel 24:16 - And when the angel, stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented of the evil and reversed his judgement.....
Accordind to God's own word or law, whenever anyone sincerely repents and ask for forgiveness, he or she must be granted mercy or forgiveness. David met that standard. So God had to do what his word or law says. God did not change, he simply honored his word.
The Word
eword
You have not responded to my comments except with Biblical quotes. Proof texting is a wast of time.
You clearly are engaging in bibliolatry. The Bible is a book composed of many manuscripts. The Torah was passed on orally for hundreds of years. There were several stories of the same topic thus in Genesis you have two different creation stories. Nevertheless the Old Testament is composed of myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, philosophy, theology, short story, fiction and even some kernels of history spread throughout. The creation stories are myth, The Noah story is legend. It is time people realized that something does not have to be historically accurate to present profound truths.
The Bible was inspired but that does not mean God dictated. Charles Dickens was also inspired to write "Oliver Twist" which even though fiction is loaded with truth. Sacred writings did not end with the last verse of Revelation. To suggest that is did is to deny the words attributed to Jesus in John 16:12ff.Those trying to say that the Bible is the absolute and inerrant word of God are presenting purely human interpretation.
Now to Num 31. The Hebrews invade a sovereign territory without cause besides their own desire for land. They took land from a people that had probably lived there for 100s is not 1000s of years. They are instructed to kill every man woman and child with one caveat they can keep the virgins for themselves provided that they supply the priests with some of them. The writer sure new soldiers even back then. This is an out and out war crime. To think this came from God is to make God into some kind of monster. These people had no knowledge of the Hebrew God who by the way was called Elohim in some of manuscripts and YHWH. Elohim comes from El on of the Gods of the Canaanites and YHWH is a name derived from an ancient Arab storm god. However I doubt that the Divine could care what people call Him/Her/It. The Divine is not so petty.
Now to the Bible being the word of God. The Bible is a very human production by very human writers. For many Christians it becomes the "Word of God" because God does speak to us through the very human words therein. My term for the fundamentalist approach is bibliolatry. Such a doctine is contrary to the words attributed to Jesus in John 16:12ff.
This has gone on at length. I will comment on the New Testament later on.
Shalom
Ted
You have not responded to my comments except with Biblical quotes. Proof texting is a wast of time.
You clearly are engaging in bibliolatry. The Bible is a book composed of many manuscripts. The Torah was passed on orally for hundreds of years. There were several stories of the same topic thus in Genesis you have two different creation stories. Nevertheless the Old Testament is composed of myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, philosophy, theology, short story, fiction and even some kernels of history spread throughout. The creation stories are myth, The Noah story is legend. It is time people realized that something does not have to be historically accurate to present profound truths.
The Bible was inspired but that does not mean God dictated. Charles Dickens was also inspired to write "Oliver Twist" which even though fiction is loaded with truth. Sacred writings did not end with the last verse of Revelation. To suggest that is did is to deny the words attributed to Jesus in John 16:12ff.Those trying to say that the Bible is the absolute and inerrant word of God are presenting purely human interpretation.
Now to Num 31. The Hebrews invade a sovereign territory without cause besides their own desire for land. They took land from a people that had probably lived there for 100s is not 1000s of years. They are instructed to kill every man woman and child with one caveat they can keep the virgins for themselves provided that they supply the priests with some of them. The writer sure new soldiers even back then. This is an out and out war crime. To think this came from God is to make God into some kind of monster. These people had no knowledge of the Hebrew God who by the way was called Elohim in some of manuscripts and YHWH. Elohim comes from El on of the Gods of the Canaanites and YHWH is a name derived from an ancient Arab storm god. However I doubt that the Divine could care what people call Him/Her/It. The Divine is not so petty.
Now to the Bible being the word of God. The Bible is a very human production by very human writers. For many Christians it becomes the "Word of God" because God does speak to us through the very human words therein. My term for the fundamentalist approach is bibliolatry. Such a doctine is contrary to the words attributed to Jesus in John 16:12ff.
This has gone on at length. I will comment on the New Testament later on.
Shalom
Ted
The Word
BTW fundamentalism does not hearken back to the early church began by the Apostles. It is a very human invention of the late 19th Cent. and the early 20th Cent
Shalom
Ted
Shalom
Ted
The Word
koan;1346538 wrote: yep. looks like "write only"
Too bad. I was wondering what eword's take on God making us eat our children was.
eword;1346553 wrote: If my interpretation is incorrect, point out why scripturally. You cannot honestly debate christianity or the bible without quoting specific scripture to illustrate your point.
I have already abundantly addressed the issue of God not changing his mind. If you need further clarification, outline your arguments in a clear easy to understand manner, point by point. And please present the dozens of contradictions in a coherent manner and by scripture and I will be very happy to analyze them.
And please take your time in responding, do not rush, research your arguments sufficiently.
Eagerly waiting to hear from you.
Leviticus 26: 29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
So did God change His mind or is cannibalism still one of His punishments of choice?
Do not rush, consider first whether Christians are meant to be quoting from someone else's book.
Too bad. I was wondering what eword's take on God making us eat our children was.
eword;1346553 wrote: If my interpretation is incorrect, point out why scripturally. You cannot honestly debate christianity or the bible without quoting specific scripture to illustrate your point.
I have already abundantly addressed the issue of God not changing his mind. If you need further clarification, outline your arguments in a clear easy to understand manner, point by point. And please present the dozens of contradictions in a coherent manner and by scripture and I will be very happy to analyze them.
And please take your time in responding, do not rush, research your arguments sufficiently.
Eagerly waiting to hear from you.
Leviticus 26: 29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
So did God change His mind or is cannibalism still one of His punishments of choice?
Do not rush, consider first whether Christians are meant to be quoting from someone else's book.
The Word
It appears, you are making two separate arguments, at the same time. If you are questioning, whether the bible is the word of God, I won't argue with you further, because that debate has no end and futile. But if you want to debate specific scriptures and what they mean, then I say, bring it on.
Now, God is like the law of physics. Whether you are ignorant of them or not, they can either benefit you or harm you and even kill you. The Midianites may not have known about the 'God of Israel', but that made no difference. God who created the earth, could surely do as he pleased in the very earth he created. Remember in Genesis, everyone was wiped out, except Noah and his family and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed minus Lot and his family . So what happened to the Midianites is not unthinkable. The Midianites may have been innocent in your eyes, but you are not God. Divine justice is not like human justice.
Now, God is like the law of physics. Whether you are ignorant of them or not, they can either benefit you or harm you and even kill you. The Midianites may not have known about the 'God of Israel', but that made no difference. God who created the earth, could surely do as he pleased in the very earth he created. Remember in Genesis, everyone was wiped out, except Noah and his family and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed minus Lot and his family . So what happened to the Midianites is not unthinkable. The Midianites may have been innocent in your eyes, but you are not God. Divine justice is not like human justice.
The Word
We can see God's justice manifest in One Jesus of Nazareth in whom we see the fullness of God. Jesus did not act like that nor did he go about recommending murder. If as you say God can do what He likes even when it comes to wiping people out then how is one to trust such a God . He might decide tonight to wipe some innocent person out.. Under the New Covenant the God of the OT must be seen in the light of Jesus the Christ otherwise you have a god with a multiple personality problem. That is not the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Debate scripture? Why? You do not answer my questions or respond to them. More of a cop out I think.
One of the reasons many want the Bible to be the absolute and inerrant word of God is clearly a lack of trust in the Divine. They need the Bible as a contract signed sealed and delivered. This way they can hold God to account. Purely a lack of trust. (pistis)
Shalom
Ted
Debate scripture? Why? You do not answer my questions or respond to them. More of a cop out I think.
One of the reasons many want the Bible to be the absolute and inerrant word of God is clearly a lack of trust in the Divine. They need the Bible as a contract signed sealed and delivered. This way they can hold God to account. Purely a lack of trust. (pistis)
Shalom
Ted
The Word
koan
Cannibalism doesn't exactly sound like num-nums does it.
You are correct "write only". Heaven forbid one should actually think.
Shalom
Ted
Cannibalism doesn't exactly sound like num-nums does it.
You are correct "write only". Heaven forbid one should actually think.
Shalom
Ted
The Word
Leviticus 26:29 - You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters...
In Leviticus 26:1-13 God outlined the benefits of obedience and in Leviticus 26:14-29 and beyond God listed the consequences of disobedience. Now, the Israelites were presented with both sides of the coin. The choice was theirs and not God's. As for cannibalism, God is not in favor of cannibalism nor does he wish it on anyone. The fact is, if the Isrealites chose to to obey they would be fine, but if they chose to disobey their God, the 'God of Israel, they will lose God's blessings and therefore expose themselves to the curse. God never intended them to experience the curse, that is why he told them, how to avoid it in Leviticus 26:1-13. Just like Adam, in the garden, God told him, what will happen if he dared to violate God's command. So Adam, like all people after him had a choice to make. Adam made the wrong choice and paid a high price for it.
Back to the issue of cannibalism, in the above scripture, if the Isrealites were disobedient, God will abandon them to such an extent that they could face starvation, which will force them to eat their own. But this wasn't God's will or choice for them. They could have easily avoided this from happening by the choices they made.
No one is ever on the wrong side of divine justice by accident. Divine justice doesn't just fall on people for the hell of it, there are always reasons behind it. God doesn't just wipe out innocent people. The people may be innocent in your eyes, but then again you are not God. God knows better than you or me. Why would God just kill people for no reason? Why waste time creating people if he wanted them dead?
God said, Let Us(Father, Son & Holy spirit) make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority............ - Genesis 1:26(AMP)
Within the Godhead are three entities, God the father, the Son or the word and the Holy Spirit. Jesus, the son existed from the very beginning in heaven as part of the Godhead. But when he came to earth, he took on human form so as to relate with other humans. So Jesus and God are one and the same. Whatever God did Jesus did and whatever Jesus did God did. To understand this better, imagine a father, who is a husband and a manager at work. Three titles or duties in one person.
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God - John 1:1(NIV)
God and his word, which is Jesus are one and the same. You can't have one without the other.
And the word became flesh and lived awhile among us - John 1:14(AMP)
The very same word of God was transformed into a human being, Jesus Christ and he lived on earth for a while.
In Leviticus 26:1-13 God outlined the benefits of obedience and in Leviticus 26:14-29 and beyond God listed the consequences of disobedience. Now, the Israelites were presented with both sides of the coin. The choice was theirs and not God's. As for cannibalism, God is not in favor of cannibalism nor does he wish it on anyone. The fact is, if the Isrealites chose to to obey they would be fine, but if they chose to disobey their God, the 'God of Israel, they will lose God's blessings and therefore expose themselves to the curse. God never intended them to experience the curse, that is why he told them, how to avoid it in Leviticus 26:1-13. Just like Adam, in the garden, God told him, what will happen if he dared to violate God's command. So Adam, like all people after him had a choice to make. Adam made the wrong choice and paid a high price for it.
Back to the issue of cannibalism, in the above scripture, if the Isrealites were disobedient, God will abandon them to such an extent that they could face starvation, which will force them to eat their own. But this wasn't God's will or choice for them. They could have easily avoided this from happening by the choices they made.
No one is ever on the wrong side of divine justice by accident. Divine justice doesn't just fall on people for the hell of it, there are always reasons behind it. God doesn't just wipe out innocent people. The people may be innocent in your eyes, but then again you are not God. God knows better than you or me. Why would God just kill people for no reason? Why waste time creating people if he wanted them dead?
God said, Let Us(Father, Son & Holy spirit) make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority............ - Genesis 1:26(AMP)
Within the Godhead are three entities, God the father, the Son or the word and the Holy Spirit. Jesus, the son existed from the very beginning in heaven as part of the Godhead. But when he came to earth, he took on human form so as to relate with other humans. So Jesus and God are one and the same. Whatever God did Jesus did and whatever Jesus did God did. To understand this better, imagine a father, who is a husband and a manager at work. Three titles or duties in one person.
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God - John 1:1(NIV)
God and his word, which is Jesus are one and the same. You can't have one without the other.
And the word became flesh and lived awhile among us - John 1:14(AMP)
The very same word of God was transformed into a human being, Jesus Christ and he lived on earth for a while.
The Word
Ok. Slow down. Jesus doesn't exist in the Old Testament so don't go bringing him into it.
We've agreed now that God chose to curse the people with cannibalism if they angered Him. I think we can agree that the Israelites later angered him. So should we agree that the Israelites were cannibals? Or did God change His mind about that curse?
We've agreed now that God chose to curse the people with cannibalism if they angered Him. I think we can agree that the Israelites later angered him. So should we agree that the Israelites were cannibals? Or did God change His mind about that curse?
The Word
koan;1346623 wrote: Ok. Slow down. Jesus doesn't exist in the Old Testament so don't go bringing him into it.
We've agreed now that God chose to curse the people with cannibalism if they angered Him. I think we can agree that the Israelites later angered him. So should we agree that the Israelites were cannibals? Or did God change His mind about that curse?Neither did the Holy Spirit for that matter, that came after Jesus ascended into heaven. But Christians like to use Genesis 1:26 to claim evidence of the trinity in the old testament.
genisis1:26 wrote: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth.
We've agreed now that God chose to curse the people with cannibalism if they angered Him. I think we can agree that the Israelites later angered him. So should we agree that the Israelites were cannibals? Or did God change His mind about that curse?Neither did the Holy Spirit for that matter, that came after Jesus ascended into heaven. But Christians like to use Genesis 1:26 to claim evidence of the trinity in the old testament.
genisis1:26 wrote: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Word
As I recall, originally, it was thought that God had a council composed of lesser Gods. "Let us . . ." is reference to this council.
As for the rest of the post this is what one gets when one reads anything without understanding what they read. So what do we need to understand? A copy of the best manuscripts one can get. The ability to translate (OT and NT. helps but is unnecessary if one have a good translation (King James has some 20000 errors. It should also list the words that we are unable to translate and those do exist. It helps to understand something of the history of the people up to the date of writing and includes social, cultural and political history. Then one has to reinterpret in light of today's context. If it is not read in today's context it becomes an ancient manuscript and part of a long dead religion. If Christianity is to be the one of the great faiths of the world it must constantly be reinterpreted.
Christianity, like Judaism was meant to be a way of life not just another religion. In fact the great preacher and theologian D. Bonhoeffer went so far as to call for religionless Christianity. Many theologians and scholars fall into this camp. Some denounce the scholarship but without scholarship we would have none of the documents of ancient wisdom.
As a follower of "The Way" I accept "Study to show yourself approved." and "You shall know the truth and it will set you free." What I don't need is the carrot and stick approach or "turn or burn" which is nothing more than an attempt at control by those who don't understand.
May the peace of Christ be with all at this season of the year.
Ted
As for the rest of the post this is what one gets when one reads anything without understanding what they read. So what do we need to understand? A copy of the best manuscripts one can get. The ability to translate (OT and NT. helps but is unnecessary if one have a good translation (King James has some 20000 errors. It should also list the words that we are unable to translate and those do exist. It helps to understand something of the history of the people up to the date of writing and includes social, cultural and political history. Then one has to reinterpret in light of today's context. If it is not read in today's context it becomes an ancient manuscript and part of a long dead religion. If Christianity is to be the one of the great faiths of the world it must constantly be reinterpreted.
Christianity, like Judaism was meant to be a way of life not just another religion. In fact the great preacher and theologian D. Bonhoeffer went so far as to call for religionless Christianity. Many theologians and scholars fall into this camp. Some denounce the scholarship but without scholarship we would have none of the documents of ancient wisdom.
As a follower of "The Way" I accept "Study to show yourself approved." and "You shall know the truth and it will set you free." What I don't need is the carrot and stick approach or "turn or burn" which is nothing more than an attempt at control by those who don't understand.
May the peace of Christ be with all at this season of the year.
Ted
The Word
Att: Koan
John 1:1-3(AMP) - In the beginning, before all time, was the word, Christ, and the word was with God, and the word was God himself. He, Christ was present originally with God. All things were made and came into existence through him(Christ); and without him was not even one thing made, that has come into being.
If Jesus Christ, who is the word of God, existed in the beginning and the Old Testament came after the beginning and the word of God, which is Jesus was in the Old Testament, that means Jesus was in the Old Testament.
Colossians 1:15-16(AMP) - He, Christ is the exact likeness of the unseen God, the visible representative of the invisible; He, Christ is the firstborn of all creation. For it was in him(Christ), that all things were created......
If Jesus Christ, is the firstborn of all creation, that means he existed before Adam or the Old Testament. And if Jesus is the visible representaive of the invisible God and the invisible God was present in the Old testament, that means Jesus, who is part of God was present in the Old Testament.
God did not choose or want to curse the people. If God wanted the people cursed, why did he tell them in advance how not to be cursed? Why did he tell them how to be blessed? Why did he create them, if he wanted them cursed? The people had a choice to make. They could choose to be blessed or to be cursed. The choice was theirs not God's. Just like Adam, in the garden, God told him, what to do, if he wanted God to continue, providing his every need and living in the garden, but God also told Adam, what will happen if he went against God's command. So Adam had a choice to make. Adam wasn't ambushed by God and neither were the people in the Old Testament. They knew exactly, what will happen, if they did certain things.
Deuteronomy 30:19(NIV) - This day, I(God) call heaven and earth as witness against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now, choose life, so that you and your children may live....
Notice, who has a choice to make? If God was going to choose for you, why would he ask you to choose?
If the Israelites engaged in cannibalism, it wasn't God's fault. God had told them what to do, in order to avoid being so desperate and without food, that they had to eat their own. If God wanted them to be cannibals, why did he tell them, how to be blessed and avoid being so desperate? Nothing just happens. There is cause and effect or action and reaction.
God never changed. It was the Israelites, who changed from doing what God had told them to do and therefore suffered the consequences of their actions. God had forwarned them. So, when they decided not to heed the warning, there was nothing God could do. If God were to change his word or law, for their sake or anyones sake, he will be in violation of his own word and law. God did not change his word or law, for the very first man, Adam, so why would he change it for anyone else after Adam?
Att:Ahso
True, the Holy Spirit came to earth, after the death and resurrection of Jesus, but that wasn't it's first visit to earth. The Holy Spirit operated in the Old Testament, as part of God, but no human could be filled with the Holy Spirit. Now, after Jesus Ascended to heaven, the very same Holy Spirit was redirected to fill human beings and operate in them.
Genesis 1:2(AMP) - ....The Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
Just like Jesus, the Holy Spirit existed in the beginning before all creation. And just like Jesus, the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God operated in the Old testament. Wherever God has been or is, the Holy Spirit and Jesus have been and are. The three are inseparable.
Psalm 51:11(AMP) - Cast me not away from your presence and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
If the Holy Spirit wasn't available in the Old Testament , why did the Psalmist refer to it?
Psalm 139:7(AMP) - Where could I go from your Spirit? ......
Again, why does the Psalmist keep talking about the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament?
Isaiah 40:13(AMP) - Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, or as....
Even Isaiah, talks about the Holy Spirit in the Old Tesament?
The trinity of God is a biblical fact and not a claim. There is scripture to prove it.
Att: Ted
I sincerely appreciate your scholarly insights, but that information introduces a whole new debate or debates. And I agree, that christianity is a way of life and not a religion. Also, you are right, the truth will set us all free.
I wish you and all members to this site, an Extremely blessed life.
John 1:1-3(AMP) - In the beginning, before all time, was the word, Christ, and the word was with God, and the word was God himself. He, Christ was present originally with God. All things were made and came into existence through him(Christ); and without him was not even one thing made, that has come into being.
If Jesus Christ, who is the word of God, existed in the beginning and the Old Testament came after the beginning and the word of God, which is Jesus was in the Old Testament, that means Jesus was in the Old Testament.
Colossians 1:15-16(AMP) - He, Christ is the exact likeness of the unseen God, the visible representative of the invisible; He, Christ is the firstborn of all creation. For it was in him(Christ), that all things were created......
If Jesus Christ, is the firstborn of all creation, that means he existed before Adam or the Old Testament. And if Jesus is the visible representaive of the invisible God and the invisible God was present in the Old testament, that means Jesus, who is part of God was present in the Old Testament.
God did not choose or want to curse the people. If God wanted the people cursed, why did he tell them in advance how not to be cursed? Why did he tell them how to be blessed? Why did he create them, if he wanted them cursed? The people had a choice to make. They could choose to be blessed or to be cursed. The choice was theirs not God's. Just like Adam, in the garden, God told him, what to do, if he wanted God to continue, providing his every need and living in the garden, but God also told Adam, what will happen if he went against God's command. So Adam had a choice to make. Adam wasn't ambushed by God and neither were the people in the Old Testament. They knew exactly, what will happen, if they did certain things.
Deuteronomy 30:19(NIV) - This day, I(God) call heaven and earth as witness against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now, choose life, so that you and your children may live....
Notice, who has a choice to make? If God was going to choose for you, why would he ask you to choose?
If the Israelites engaged in cannibalism, it wasn't God's fault. God had told them what to do, in order to avoid being so desperate and without food, that they had to eat their own. If God wanted them to be cannibals, why did he tell them, how to be blessed and avoid being so desperate? Nothing just happens. There is cause and effect or action and reaction.
God never changed. It was the Israelites, who changed from doing what God had told them to do and therefore suffered the consequences of their actions. God had forwarned them. So, when they decided not to heed the warning, there was nothing God could do. If God were to change his word or law, for their sake or anyones sake, he will be in violation of his own word and law. God did not change his word or law, for the very first man, Adam, so why would he change it for anyone else after Adam?
Att:Ahso
True, the Holy Spirit came to earth, after the death and resurrection of Jesus, but that wasn't it's first visit to earth. The Holy Spirit operated in the Old Testament, as part of God, but no human could be filled with the Holy Spirit. Now, after Jesus Ascended to heaven, the very same Holy Spirit was redirected to fill human beings and operate in them.
Genesis 1:2(AMP) - ....The Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
Just like Jesus, the Holy Spirit existed in the beginning before all creation. And just like Jesus, the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God operated in the Old testament. Wherever God has been or is, the Holy Spirit and Jesus have been and are. The three are inseparable.
Psalm 51:11(AMP) - Cast me not away from your presence and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
If the Holy Spirit wasn't available in the Old Testament , why did the Psalmist refer to it?
Psalm 139:7(AMP) - Where could I go from your Spirit? ......
Again, why does the Psalmist keep talking about the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament?
Isaiah 40:13(AMP) - Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, or as....
Even Isaiah, talks about the Holy Spirit in the Old Tesament?
The trinity of God is a biblical fact and not a claim. There is scripture to prove it.
Att: Ted
I sincerely appreciate your scholarly insights, but that information introduces a whole new debate or debates. And I agree, that christianity is a way of life and not a religion. Also, you are right, the truth will set us all free.
I wish you and all members to this site, an Extremely blessed life.
The Word
eword;1346750 wrote: Att: Koan
John 1:1-3(AMP) - In the beginning, before all time, was the word, Christ, and the word was with God, and the word was God himself. He, Christ was present originally with God. All things were made and came into existence through him(Christ); and without him was not even one thing made, that has come into being.
If Jesus Christ, who is the word of God, existed in the beginning and the Old Testament came after the beginning and the word of God, which is Jesus was in the Old Testament, that means Jesus was in the Old Testament.
Colossians 1:15-16(AMP) - He, Christ is the exact likeness of the unseen God, the visible representative of the invisible; He, Christ is the firstborn of all creation. For it was in him(Christ), that all things were created......
If Jesus Christ, is the firstborn of all creation, that means he existed before Adam or the Old Testament. And if Jesus is the visible representaive of the invisible God and the invisible God was present in the Old testament, that means Jesus, who is part of God was present in the Old Testament.
God did not choose or want to curse the people. If God wanted the people cursed, why did he tell them in advance how not to be cursed? Why did he tell them how to be blessed? Why did he create them, if he wanted them cursed? The people had a choice to make. They could choose to be blessed or to be cursed. The choice was theirs not God's. Just like Adam, in the garden, God told him, what to do, if he wanted God to continue, providing his every need and living in the garden, but God also told Adam, what will happen if he went against God's command. So Adam had a choice to make. Adam wasn't ambushed by God and neither were the people in the Old Testament. They knew exactly, what will happen, if they did certain things.
Deuteronomy 30:19(NIV) - This day, I(God) call heaven and earth as witness against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now, choose life, so that you and your children may live....
Notice, who has a choice to make? If God was going to choose for you, why would he ask you to choose?
If the Israelites engaged in cannibalism, it wasn't God's fault. God had told them what to do, in order to avoid being so desperate and without food, that they had to eat their own. If God wanted them to be cannibals, why did he tell them, how to be blessed and avoid being so desperate? Nothing just happens. There is cause and effect or action and reaction.
God never changed. It was the Israelites, who changed from doing what God had told them to do and therefore suffered the consequences of their actions. God had forwarned them. So, when they decided not to heed the warning, there was nothing God could do. If God were to change his word or law, for their sake or anyones sake, he will be in violation of his own word and law. God did not change his word or law, for the very first man, Adam, so why would he change it for anyone else after Adam?
Attn: eword
We're talking about Leviticus so don't start quoting other passages at me until we're done with Leviticus. You don't improve your argument by using more words. The words have to mean something. If they're relevant to the discussion they function even better. You aren't scoring in either department.
Let me explain why you shouldn't wander around inventing connections backwards. Life happens in sequence. It's why we invented calendars to keep track of time and started putting dates on the years, so we could make sense of history and make sure to all be talking about the same events.
In Leviticus, God cursed the chosen people with cannibalism so if they started doing that then it most certainly was God's "fault" though I'd use the word "choice" as they didn't engage in cannibalism before the curse. God was also not giving advice on the matter he was threatening them with it. Though they might have sacrificed a few young 'uns to Moloch from time to time, it's not like God didn't ask them to sacrifice their first borns a few times too... until He finally gave up on it and accepted money for them instead. (Another change of mind)
If you go back to what preceded a passage instead of jumping ahead to what came later... as most sane people do... you'll see that:
The Israelites were never good at following God's commands. That's why He's always coming up with new ways to punish them. He simply made up too many rules and sometimes punished the whole tribe for the wrong doing of any one of them, whether the others knew of the misdeed or not. That's how they figured out someone needed to be stoned... they'd lose a battle then have to go hunting amongst themselves to figure out who sinned. Even though the people couldn't follow simple basic rules, He kept on adding more as if everything was copacetic. So asking for forgiveness meant **** all because you'd be punished if someone else sinned anyway. He was also more likely to curse your ancestors for three generations so the forgiveness part would not be seen in your lifetime.
The Israelites most certainly did not change. In fact, it seems that most of their annoying pagan tendencies were a result of God sending them into pagan Egypt and leaving them there for 400 years. They didn't get the rule book given to them until after God submitted them to 400 years of pagan influence without guidance. Joseph was their God given leader and he was deeply immersed in the Egyptian religions. He even married the daughter of one of their priests. Joseph had Jacob embalmed. And he was God's favourite.... but that's more of an argument about whether or not the OT God is fair.
As a side note: I'd be cautious in combining the words "there was nothing God could do." That's rather disrespectful of His omnipotence. Don't blame me if God has you eating your offspring after that little slip.
John 1:1-3(AMP) - In the beginning, before all time, was the word, Christ, and the word was with God, and the word was God himself. He, Christ was present originally with God. All things were made and came into existence through him(Christ); and without him was not even one thing made, that has come into being.
If Jesus Christ, who is the word of God, existed in the beginning and the Old Testament came after the beginning and the word of God, which is Jesus was in the Old Testament, that means Jesus was in the Old Testament.
Colossians 1:15-16(AMP) - He, Christ is the exact likeness of the unseen God, the visible representative of the invisible; He, Christ is the firstborn of all creation. For it was in him(Christ), that all things were created......
If Jesus Christ, is the firstborn of all creation, that means he existed before Adam or the Old Testament. And if Jesus is the visible representaive of the invisible God and the invisible God was present in the Old testament, that means Jesus, who is part of God was present in the Old Testament.
God did not choose or want to curse the people. If God wanted the people cursed, why did he tell them in advance how not to be cursed? Why did he tell them how to be blessed? Why did he create them, if he wanted them cursed? The people had a choice to make. They could choose to be blessed or to be cursed. The choice was theirs not God's. Just like Adam, in the garden, God told him, what to do, if he wanted God to continue, providing his every need and living in the garden, but God also told Adam, what will happen if he went against God's command. So Adam had a choice to make. Adam wasn't ambushed by God and neither were the people in the Old Testament. They knew exactly, what will happen, if they did certain things.
Deuteronomy 30:19(NIV) - This day, I(God) call heaven and earth as witness against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now, choose life, so that you and your children may live....
Notice, who has a choice to make? If God was going to choose for you, why would he ask you to choose?
If the Israelites engaged in cannibalism, it wasn't God's fault. God had told them what to do, in order to avoid being so desperate and without food, that they had to eat their own. If God wanted them to be cannibals, why did he tell them, how to be blessed and avoid being so desperate? Nothing just happens. There is cause and effect or action and reaction.
God never changed. It was the Israelites, who changed from doing what God had told them to do and therefore suffered the consequences of their actions. God had forwarned them. So, when they decided not to heed the warning, there was nothing God could do. If God were to change his word or law, for their sake or anyones sake, he will be in violation of his own word and law. God did not change his word or law, for the very first man, Adam, so why would he change it for anyone else after Adam?
Attn: eword
We're talking about Leviticus so don't start quoting other passages at me until we're done with Leviticus. You don't improve your argument by using more words. The words have to mean something. If they're relevant to the discussion they function even better. You aren't scoring in either department.
Let me explain why you shouldn't wander around inventing connections backwards. Life happens in sequence. It's why we invented calendars to keep track of time and started putting dates on the years, so we could make sense of history and make sure to all be talking about the same events.
In Leviticus, God cursed the chosen people with cannibalism so if they started doing that then it most certainly was God's "fault" though I'd use the word "choice" as they didn't engage in cannibalism before the curse. God was also not giving advice on the matter he was threatening them with it. Though they might have sacrificed a few young 'uns to Moloch from time to time, it's not like God didn't ask them to sacrifice their first borns a few times too... until He finally gave up on it and accepted money for them instead. (Another change of mind)
If you go back to what preceded a passage instead of jumping ahead to what came later... as most sane people do... you'll see that:
The Israelites were never good at following God's commands. That's why He's always coming up with new ways to punish them. He simply made up too many rules and sometimes punished the whole tribe for the wrong doing of any one of them, whether the others knew of the misdeed or not. That's how they figured out someone needed to be stoned... they'd lose a battle then have to go hunting amongst themselves to figure out who sinned. Even though the people couldn't follow simple basic rules, He kept on adding more as if everything was copacetic. So asking for forgiveness meant **** all because you'd be punished if someone else sinned anyway. He was also more likely to curse your ancestors for three generations so the forgiveness part would not be seen in your lifetime.
The Israelites most certainly did not change. In fact, it seems that most of their annoying pagan tendencies were a result of God sending them into pagan Egypt and leaving them there for 400 years. They didn't get the rule book given to them until after God submitted them to 400 years of pagan influence without guidance. Joseph was their God given leader and he was deeply immersed in the Egyptian religions. He even married the daughter of one of their priests. Joseph had Jacob embalmed. And he was God's favourite.... but that's more of an argument about whether or not the OT God is fair.
As a side note: I'd be cautious in combining the words "there was nothing God could do." That's rather disrespectful of His omnipotence. Don't blame me if God has you eating your offspring after that little slip.
The Word
Just to make my argument with your statements clear, I believe in God, I believe Jesus was a prophet, and I believe that Christians should steer clear of quoting the OT as part of their faith. The OT is a Jewish book and if you want to know what it means, ask them.
The Word
koan;1346757 wrote: Just to make my argument with your statements clear, I believe in God, I believe Jesus was a prophet, and I believe that Christians should steer clear of quoting the OT as part of their faith. The OT is a Jewish book and if you want to know what it means, ask them.You mean within the context of the biblical story, or as fact? Because outside the bible story, there is not one shred of evidence anywhere this person ever existed.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Word
Ahso!;1346789 wrote: You mean within the context of the biblical story, or as fact? Because outside the bible story, there is not one shred of evidence anywhere this person ever existed.
Speaking of context, "and I believe that Christians should steer clear of quoting the OT as part of their faith. The OT is a Jewish book and if you want to know what it means, ask them" was the part I had bolded in my mind. I'm not a literalist. There are other threads about whether or not Jesus existed. This one is about whether or not eword is reading the story in the proper direction.
I flip through magazines backwards because the stories usually start on the back pages. The bible is meant to be read front page first.
Speaking of context, "and I believe that Christians should steer clear of quoting the OT as part of their faith. The OT is a Jewish book and if you want to know what it means, ask them" was the part I had bolded in my mind. I'm not a literalist. There are other threads about whether or not Jesus existed. This one is about whether or not eword is reading the story in the proper direction.
I flip through magazines backwards because the stories usually start on the back pages. The bible is meant to be read front page first.
The Word
koan
You have much more patience than I have.
Shalom
Ted
You have much more patience than I have.
Shalom
Ted
The Word
koan;1346827 wrote: Speaking of context, "and I believe that Christians should steer clear of quoting the OT as part of their faith. The OT is a Jewish book and if you want to know what it means, ask them" was the part I had bolded in my mind. I'm not a literalist. There are other threads about whether or not Jesus existed. This one is about whether or not eword is reading the story in the proper direction.
I flip through magazines backwards because the stories usually start on the back pages. The bible is meant to be read front page first.Mea culpa!
I flip through magazines backwards because the stories usually start on the back pages. The bible is meant to be read front page first.Mea culpa!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Word
Ted;1346829 wrote: koan
You have much more patience than I have.
Shalom
Ted
I think I was just keen to see if my notes on the OT would come in handy for quick reference to the storyline. lol
It did.
:yh_dance
You have much more patience than I have.
Shalom
Ted
I think I was just keen to see if my notes on the OT would come in handy for quick reference to the storyline. lol
It did.
:yh_dance
The Word
Att: Koan
You can't understand the New Testament, without understanding the Old Testament. They are connected. Infact, the whole life of Jesus on earth is part of the Old Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The New Testament or Covenant could not begin, while Jesus was Still on earth. It was after the death and the resurrection of Jesus, that the New Testament kicked in.
It is true, that the Jewish religion is centered around the Old Testament, but that does not mean, christians should have nothing to do with it. No serious christian can ignore the Old testament. And you are very right, there are things about the Old Testament, that Jews can teach christians.
In my previous postings, I have abundantly explained Leviticus, so there is nothing further to add. The Old Testament God is the same New Testament God. The only difference is, that in the Old Testament, God only belonged to the Jews, but after the resurrection of Jesus, God became the God of all humanity. And it was after Jesus ascended to heaven, that christianity officially began. No one could be a christian before then. The Jews in the old testament, weren't christians, even though they worshipped God.
God said, Let Us make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority...................Upon the earth - Genesis 1:26(AMP)
Before God created mankind, God had complete authority in heaven and on earth. But after God created mankind, by his own choice, he gave complete authority in the earth to mankind or humans. That means, from that moment onwards, God ceased to have complete authority in the earth and also if God desired to operate in the earth in the future, he will need the permission and participation of mankind. Once authority in the earth was transfered to mankind, only mankind or humans could exercise authority in the earth.
God and the Devil or Satan are spirits, they are not human. So, these two need the permission and participation to operate in human lives. That is why, Adam was allowed to exercise his free will in the garden, for better or worse. And also that is why, the Devil had to work his way through mankind in order to operate in the earth and after Adam's disaster God had to work his way back into the earth through Abraham and others after him.
Truly I(Jesus) tell you(mankind), whatever you(not God) forbid on earth, will also be forbidden in heaven and Whatever you(not God) permit on earth, will also be permitted in heaven - Matthew18:18(AMP)
While Jesus was on earth, he reminded mankind of their authority on earth, which God gave them in Genesis 1:26. In reality, God can do anything, but by choice he has limited himself by his own word. So God can never violate his own word and the free will of mankind, no matter the consequences. This is why, since Adam, numerous terrible things have happened on earth and God never ever intervened. God never intervenes on earth unilaterally, out of respect for his own word and mankind's free will.
You can't understand the New Testament, without understanding the Old Testament. They are connected. Infact, the whole life of Jesus on earth is part of the Old Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The New Testament or Covenant could not begin, while Jesus was Still on earth. It was after the death and the resurrection of Jesus, that the New Testament kicked in.
It is true, that the Jewish religion is centered around the Old Testament, but that does not mean, christians should have nothing to do with it. No serious christian can ignore the Old testament. And you are very right, there are things about the Old Testament, that Jews can teach christians.
In my previous postings, I have abundantly explained Leviticus, so there is nothing further to add. The Old Testament God is the same New Testament God. The only difference is, that in the Old Testament, God only belonged to the Jews, but after the resurrection of Jesus, God became the God of all humanity. And it was after Jesus ascended to heaven, that christianity officially began. No one could be a christian before then. The Jews in the old testament, weren't christians, even though they worshipped God.
God said, Let Us make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority...................Upon the earth - Genesis 1:26(AMP)
Before God created mankind, God had complete authority in heaven and on earth. But after God created mankind, by his own choice, he gave complete authority in the earth to mankind or humans. That means, from that moment onwards, God ceased to have complete authority in the earth and also if God desired to operate in the earth in the future, he will need the permission and participation of mankind. Once authority in the earth was transfered to mankind, only mankind or humans could exercise authority in the earth.
God and the Devil or Satan are spirits, they are not human. So, these two need the permission and participation to operate in human lives. That is why, Adam was allowed to exercise his free will in the garden, for better or worse. And also that is why, the Devil had to work his way through mankind in order to operate in the earth and after Adam's disaster God had to work his way back into the earth through Abraham and others after him.
Truly I(Jesus) tell you(mankind), whatever you(not God) forbid on earth, will also be forbidden in heaven and Whatever you(not God) permit on earth, will also be permitted in heaven - Matthew18:18(AMP)
While Jesus was on earth, he reminded mankind of their authority on earth, which God gave them in Genesis 1:26. In reality, God can do anything, but by choice he has limited himself by his own word. So God can never violate his own word and the free will of mankind, no matter the consequences. This is why, since Adam, numerous terrible things have happened on earth and God never ever intervened. God never intervenes on earth unilaterally, out of respect for his own word and mankind's free will.
The Word
If God couldn't intervene after Genesis 1: 26
... why did He?
I clearly recall a little discussion between Him and Abraham in which God was on the way to smiting all of Sodom and Abraham bartered Him down. It's a great example of the word for word process of God taking authority over mankind and also of Him changing His mind.
oh... your required quotes:
Genesis 18
26And the Lord said, If I find in the city of Sodom fifty righteous (upright and in right standing with God), I will spare the whole place for their sake.
27Abraham answered, Behold now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord.
28If five of the fifty righteous should be lacking--will You destroy the whole city for lack of five? He said, If I find forty-five, I will not destroy it.
29And [Abraham] spoke to Him yet again, and said, Suppose [only] forty shall be found there. And He said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30Then [Abraham] said to Him, Oh, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak [again]. Suppose [only] thirty shall be found there. And He answered, I will not do it if I find thirty there.
31And [Abraham] said, Behold now, I have taken upon myself to speak [again] to the Lord. Suppose [only] twenty shall be found there. And replied, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again only this once. Suppose ten [righteous people] shall be found there. And said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33And the Lord went His way when He had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.
Really. The OT God is not something Christians wants to find themselves defending. Above and beyond that, your Christian claims on the OT are even more preposterous than the worst I've heard. Smoke the peace pipe and call it a day.
... why did He?
I clearly recall a little discussion between Him and Abraham in which God was on the way to smiting all of Sodom and Abraham bartered Him down. It's a great example of the word for word process of God taking authority over mankind and also of Him changing His mind.
oh... your required quotes:
Genesis 18
26And the Lord said, If I find in the city of Sodom fifty righteous (upright and in right standing with God), I will spare the whole place for their sake.
27Abraham answered, Behold now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord.
28If five of the fifty righteous should be lacking--will You destroy the whole city for lack of five? He said, If I find forty-five, I will not destroy it.
29And [Abraham] spoke to Him yet again, and said, Suppose [only] forty shall be found there. And He said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30Then [Abraham] said to Him, Oh, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak [again]. Suppose [only] thirty shall be found there. And He answered, I will not do it if I find thirty there.
31And [Abraham] said, Behold now, I have taken upon myself to speak [again] to the Lord. Suppose [only] twenty shall be found there. And replied, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again only this once. Suppose ten [righteous people] shall be found there. And said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33And the Lord went His way when He had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.
Really. The OT God is not something Christians wants to find themselves defending. Above and beyond that, your Christian claims on the OT are even more preposterous than the worst I've heard. Smoke the peace pipe and call it a day.
The Word
If God couldn't intervene after Genesis 1: 26
... why did He?
I clearly recall a little discussion between Him and Abraham in which God was on the way to smiting all of Sodom and Abraham bartered Him down. It's a great example of the word for word process of God taking authority over mankind and also of Him changing His mind.
oh... your required quotes:
Genesis 18
26And the Lord said, If I find in the city of Sodom fifty righteous (upright and in right standing with God), I will spare the whole place for their sake.
27Abraham answered, Behold now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord.
28If five of the fifty righteous should be lacking--will You destroy the whole city for lack of five? He said, If I find forty-five, I will not destroy it.
29And [Abraham] spoke to Him yet again, and said, Suppose [only] forty shall be found there. And He said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30Then [Abraham] said to Him, Oh, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak [again]. Suppose [only] thirty shall be found there. And He answered, I will not do it if I find thirty there.
31And [Abraham] said, Behold now, I have taken upon myself to speak [again] to the Lord. Suppose [only] twenty shall be found there. And replied, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again only this once. Suppose ten [righteous people] shall be found there. And said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33And the Lord went His way when He had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.
Really. The OT God is not something Christians wants to find themselves defending. Above and beyond that, your Christian claims on the OT are even more preposterous than the worst I've heard. Smoke the peace pipe and call it a day.
... why did He?
I clearly recall a little discussion between Him and Abraham in which God was on the way to smiting all of Sodom and Abraham bartered Him down. It's a great example of the word for word process of God taking authority over mankind and also of Him changing His mind.
oh... your required quotes:
Genesis 18
26And the Lord said, If I find in the city of Sodom fifty righteous (upright and in right standing with God), I will spare the whole place for their sake.
27Abraham answered, Behold now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord.
28If five of the fifty righteous should be lacking--will You destroy the whole city for lack of five? He said, If I find forty-five, I will not destroy it.
29And [Abraham] spoke to Him yet again, and said, Suppose [only] forty shall be found there. And He said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30Then [Abraham] said to Him, Oh, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak [again]. Suppose [only] thirty shall be found there. And He answered, I will not do it if I find thirty there.
31And [Abraham] said, Behold now, I have taken upon myself to speak [again] to the Lord. Suppose [only] twenty shall be found there. And replied, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again only this once. Suppose ten [righteous people] shall be found there. And said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33And the Lord went His way when He had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.
Really. The OT God is not something Christians wants to find themselves defending. Above and beyond that, your Christian claims on the OT are even more preposterous than the worst I've heard. Smoke the peace pipe and call it a day.
The Word
Att: Koan
You are missing the point. Indeed, God did not intervene, in so many instances. This is not because, he did not want to intervene, but the fact is no one asked him or demanded of him. God can't just intervene in the earth, without the permission of mankind. If God ever intervened, without being invited, he will be in violation of his own word and law in Genesis 1:26(AMP). Under this law God has to go through mankind and if mankind won't let him in the earth, then he can't enter, even though he desires to and has the power, as well as ability to override his own law or word.
Let me illustrate. Let us imagine, there is a mr.God, who has a son, name mankind and two houses. One house is called heaven and the other one is called earth.
Then one day, mr.God decides to give one of his houses to his son, mankind. So mr.God gives the house called earth to his son, mankind. Now the son, mankind has the keys to the house. Mr.God no longer has the keys to the house. The son, mankind is now the legal owner of the house and he has the power to forbid or permit, who comes in or what happens in it. From that moment onwards, mr.God will need the permission or invitation of his son, in order to enter the son's house. And if the son doesn't want his father, mr.God to come into his house, there is nothing mr.God can do about it.
The point is, God needs permission or an invitation from mankind, to operate in the earth, either through prayer or simply speaking the relevant word of God regarding a particular situation or circumstance. For instance, people who need divine protection, have to ask God or demand of him, to do for them, what he promised in the protection scrptures. When people quote God, his own promises in his word, he has no choice, but to intervene on their behalf. But you can not ask God, to do what his word really says, if you don't know, what his word really says. You have to know what the word of God says regarding your situation or circumstance. When a lawyer argues a case, before the judge, he argues the case, based on what is written in the law. He doesn't just say anything. His arguments are based on the law.
So, Abraham(mankind) as the legal authority in the earth, could forbid or permit, what God could do or couldn't do. And God, had to respect that, in compliance with his word and law. Many people have perished or suffered, because they failed to understand, that it wasn't up to God, but up to them, to argue or demand, that God do what his word or law says. They waited in vain. God doesnt move, unless we move. The first move is up to us.
And God is only moved by his word or law. If you want God's help, you better really know, what his word or law really says. Just as in court, no lawyer can expect a favorable outcome, without knowing what the law really says. Many people go before God without knowing God's word or law, that covers their specific situation or circumstance. People in the bible, who got God's help, knew what his word said.
You are missing the point. Indeed, God did not intervene, in so many instances. This is not because, he did not want to intervene, but the fact is no one asked him or demanded of him. God can't just intervene in the earth, without the permission of mankind. If God ever intervened, without being invited, he will be in violation of his own word and law in Genesis 1:26(AMP). Under this law God has to go through mankind and if mankind won't let him in the earth, then he can't enter, even though he desires to and has the power, as well as ability to override his own law or word.
Let me illustrate. Let us imagine, there is a mr.God, who has a son, name mankind and two houses. One house is called heaven and the other one is called earth.
Then one day, mr.God decides to give one of his houses to his son, mankind. So mr.God gives the house called earth to his son, mankind. Now the son, mankind has the keys to the house. Mr.God no longer has the keys to the house. The son, mankind is now the legal owner of the house and he has the power to forbid or permit, who comes in or what happens in it. From that moment onwards, mr.God will need the permission or invitation of his son, in order to enter the son's house. And if the son doesn't want his father, mr.God to come into his house, there is nothing mr.God can do about it.
The point is, God needs permission or an invitation from mankind, to operate in the earth, either through prayer or simply speaking the relevant word of God regarding a particular situation or circumstance. For instance, people who need divine protection, have to ask God or demand of him, to do for them, what he promised in the protection scrptures. When people quote God, his own promises in his word, he has no choice, but to intervene on their behalf. But you can not ask God, to do what his word really says, if you don't know, what his word really says. You have to know what the word of God says regarding your situation or circumstance. When a lawyer argues a case, before the judge, he argues the case, based on what is written in the law. He doesn't just say anything. His arguments are based on the law.
So, Abraham(mankind) as the legal authority in the earth, could forbid or permit, what God could do or couldn't do. And God, had to respect that, in compliance with his word and law. Many people have perished or suffered, because they failed to understand, that it wasn't up to God, but up to them, to argue or demand, that God do what his word or law says. They waited in vain. God doesnt move, unless we move. The first move is up to us.
And God is only moved by his word or law. If you want God's help, you better really know, what his word or law really says. Just as in court, no lawyer can expect a favorable outcome, without knowing what the law really says. Many people go before God without knowing God's word or law, that covers their specific situation or circumstance. People in the bible, who got God's help, knew what his word said.
The Word
When God confused the language of the people because He was angry at them for working together to build a tower... did they ask for that? Seems to me He interfered a bit with their plans. It was one of the really good times for society. People working together, getting along... then God had to go mess it up.
Genesis 11
9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Go ahead and make up your own story if you wish, just don't claim that you're talking about the OT. From what you are saying, you might as well be quoting from Dick and Jane Go To The Desert And Hallucinate.
Genesis 11
9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Go ahead and make up your own story if you wish, just don't claim that you're talking about the OT. From what you are saying, you might as well be quoting from Dick and Jane Go To The Desert And Hallucinate.
The Word
eword;1346880 wrote: Att: Koan
You are missing the point. Indeed, God did not intervene, in so many instances. This is not because, he did not want to intervene, but the fact is no one asked him or demanded of him. God can't just intervene in the earth, without the permission of mankind. If God ever intervened, without being invited, he will be in violation of his own word and law in Genesis 1:26(AMP). Under this law God has to go through mankind and if mankind won't let him in the earth, then he can't enter, even though he desires to and has the power, as well as ability to override his own law or word.
Let me illustrate. Let us imagine, there is a mr.God, who has a son, name mankind and two houses. One house is called heaven and the other one is called earth.
Then one day, mr.God decides to give one of his houses to his son, mankind. So mr.God gives the house called earth to his son, mankind. Now the son, mankind has the keys to the house. Mr.God no longer has the keys to the house. The son, mankind is now the legal owner of the house and he has the power to forbid or permit, who comes in or what happens in it. From that moment onwards, mr.God will need the permission or invitation of his son, in order to enter the son's house. And if the son doesn't want his father, mr.God to come into his house, there is nothing mr.God can do about it.
The point is, God needs permission or an invitation from mankind, to operate in the earth, either through prayer or simply speaking the relevant word of God regarding a particular situation or circumstance. For instance, people who need divine protection, have to ask God or demand of him, to do for them, what he promised in the protection scrptures. When people quote God, his own promises in his word, he has no choice, but to intervene on their behalf. But you can not ask God, to do what his word really says, if you don't know, what his word really says. You have to know what the word of God says regarding your situation or circumstance. When a lawyer argues a case, before the judge, he argues the case, based on what is written in the law. He doesn't just say anything. His arguments are based on the law.
So, Abraham(mankind) as the legal authority in the earth, could forbid or permit, what God could do or couldn't do. And God, had to respect that, in compliance with his word and law. Many people have perished or suffered, because they failed to understand, that it wasn't up to God, but up to them, to argue or demand, that God do what his word or law says. They waited in vain. God doesnt move, unless we move. The first move is up to us.
And God is only moved by his word or law. If you want God's help, you better really know, what his word or law really says. Just as in court, no lawyer can expect a favorable outcome, without knowing what the law really says. Many people go before God without knowing God's word or law, that covers their specific situation or circumstance. People in the bible, who got God's help, knew what his word said.So what man asked or demanded God to create man?
You are missing the point. Indeed, God did not intervene, in so many instances. This is not because, he did not want to intervene, but the fact is no one asked him or demanded of him. God can't just intervene in the earth, without the permission of mankind. If God ever intervened, without being invited, he will be in violation of his own word and law in Genesis 1:26(AMP). Under this law God has to go through mankind and if mankind won't let him in the earth, then he can't enter, even though he desires to and has the power, as well as ability to override his own law or word.
Let me illustrate. Let us imagine, there is a mr.God, who has a son, name mankind and two houses. One house is called heaven and the other one is called earth.
Then one day, mr.God decides to give one of his houses to his son, mankind. So mr.God gives the house called earth to his son, mankind. Now the son, mankind has the keys to the house. Mr.God no longer has the keys to the house. The son, mankind is now the legal owner of the house and he has the power to forbid or permit, who comes in or what happens in it. From that moment onwards, mr.God will need the permission or invitation of his son, in order to enter the son's house. And if the son doesn't want his father, mr.God to come into his house, there is nothing mr.God can do about it.
The point is, God needs permission or an invitation from mankind, to operate in the earth, either through prayer or simply speaking the relevant word of God regarding a particular situation or circumstance. For instance, people who need divine protection, have to ask God or demand of him, to do for them, what he promised in the protection scrptures. When people quote God, his own promises in his word, he has no choice, but to intervene on their behalf. But you can not ask God, to do what his word really says, if you don't know, what his word really says. You have to know what the word of God says regarding your situation or circumstance. When a lawyer argues a case, before the judge, he argues the case, based on what is written in the law. He doesn't just say anything. His arguments are based on the law.
So, Abraham(mankind) as the legal authority in the earth, could forbid or permit, what God could do or couldn't do. And God, had to respect that, in compliance with his word and law. Many people have perished or suffered, because they failed to understand, that it wasn't up to God, but up to them, to argue or demand, that God do what his word or law says. They waited in vain. God doesnt move, unless we move. The first move is up to us.
And God is only moved by his word or law. If you want God's help, you better really know, what his word or law really says. Just as in court, no lawyer can expect a favorable outcome, without knowing what the law really says. Many people go before God without knowing God's word or law, that covers their specific situation or circumstance. People in the bible, who got God's help, knew what his word said.So what man asked or demanded God to create man?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Word
Att: Koan
Genesis 11:4(AMP) - And they said, come let us build us a city and a tower, whose top reaches into the sky........
These people really knew, who they were and what they were capable of. They knew, that they had been created in God's image, after God's likeness and that God had given mankind complete authority in the earth(Genesis 1:26). In other words, they knew, that they were created like God and to operate like God.
If you are created in the likeness of a donkey, you operate like a donkey and if you are created in the likeness of a dog, you operate like a dog and so on and so forth. So, like God himself, they knew and believed, that they could create their own reality with the words of their mouth. God has always spoken things into existence. And whenever God spoke things happened. Somethings happened instantly, but others happened later.
In the above scripture, the people believed, that their words, sooner or later will come to pass. As long as they all agreed and were saying the same thing. If they didn't believe, they could accomplish such an astronomical project, why do it? Why waste time and resources on the impossible? The fact is, they knew it was possible, based on their knowledge of the word of God and the fact, that they were created in God's likeness. And God knew it was possible and that they were capable. After all he created them. And as their creator, he knew exactly what they could do.
Genesis 11:6(AMP) - And the Lord said, behold, they are one people and they have one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do, and now nothing they have imagined, they can do, will be impossible for them.
Why did God take this project seriously, if these people weren't capable of pulling it off? Why did God say, these people could do whatever, they imagined? And why did God declare, that nothing was impossible for them? God knew, who he had created and there ability. God knew he had created mankind to operate like him.
But the problem with this project was, that the tower will extend into the sky towards heaven. Remember, God gave mankind authority in the earth and not in the sky, near heaven. So legally, these people were in violation of God's word and law. They had overstepped their bounds. God had no choice but to terminate their project, one way or the other.
Ephesians 5:1(AMP - Therefore be imitators of God, copy him and follow his example, as well-beloved children, imitate their father.
How do you imitate and copy God? And how do you follow God'd example? You act and operate like God. The people in the Old testament understood this.
Att: Ahso
No man asked God to create man! Of course, creating man was God's choice. No man existed in the beginning, but after God created man, he gave him the freedom to choose. That is why, if you decide to do something wrong tomorrow, God won't stop you, even though he doesn't approve of it.
Genesis 11:4(AMP) - And they said, come let us build us a city and a tower, whose top reaches into the sky........
These people really knew, who they were and what they were capable of. They knew, that they had been created in God's image, after God's likeness and that God had given mankind complete authority in the earth(Genesis 1:26). In other words, they knew, that they were created like God and to operate like God.
If you are created in the likeness of a donkey, you operate like a donkey and if you are created in the likeness of a dog, you operate like a dog and so on and so forth. So, like God himself, they knew and believed, that they could create their own reality with the words of their mouth. God has always spoken things into existence. And whenever God spoke things happened. Somethings happened instantly, but others happened later.
In the above scripture, the people believed, that their words, sooner or later will come to pass. As long as they all agreed and were saying the same thing. If they didn't believe, they could accomplish such an astronomical project, why do it? Why waste time and resources on the impossible? The fact is, they knew it was possible, based on their knowledge of the word of God and the fact, that they were created in God's likeness. And God knew it was possible and that they were capable. After all he created them. And as their creator, he knew exactly what they could do.
Genesis 11:6(AMP) - And the Lord said, behold, they are one people and they have one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do, and now nothing they have imagined, they can do, will be impossible for them.
Why did God take this project seriously, if these people weren't capable of pulling it off? Why did God say, these people could do whatever, they imagined? And why did God declare, that nothing was impossible for them? God knew, who he had created and there ability. God knew he had created mankind to operate like him.
But the problem with this project was, that the tower will extend into the sky towards heaven. Remember, God gave mankind authority in the earth and not in the sky, near heaven. So legally, these people were in violation of God's word and law. They had overstepped their bounds. God had no choice but to terminate their project, one way or the other.
Ephesians 5:1(AMP - Therefore be imitators of God, copy him and follow his example, as well-beloved children, imitate their father.
How do you imitate and copy God? And how do you follow God'd example? You act and operate like God. The people in the Old testament understood this.
Att: Ahso
No man asked God to create man! Of course, creating man was God's choice. No man existed in the beginning, but after God created man, he gave him the freedom to choose. That is why, if you decide to do something wrong tomorrow, God won't stop you, even though he doesn't approve of it.
The Word
There is truth behind the story but the story itself is myth.
Shalom
Ted
Shalom
Ted
The Word
Thank you for confirming God interfered. Why He did it is not the point.
I could give you endless more examples of God interfering and changing His mind but I'm satisfied with this one success.
Good day.
I could give you endless more examples of God interfering and changing His mind but I'm satisfied with this one success.
Good day.
The Word
Att: Ted
The story is fact and not myth. Why would God participate in a myth? What would be the motivation on his part?
Att: Koan
If you had some kind of authority in a particular location and one day you decided to extend your authority, beyond your location, into someone else's territory, and the owner of that territory by whatever means stopped you from trespassing, would you claim that the owner of that territory had changed his mind? Do you have the right to encroach on someone else's property? Does the onwer of a property have the right to keep intruders out? Is exercising one's rights a mind change?
If I showed up at your house uninvited and you threw me out? Did you change your mind? Did I have a right to be there? Do you have a right to keep me out of your nice house?
So, did God change his mind, by stopping the tower builders from extending into the sky beyond the earth? Did God give them authority in the sky or on earth?
The story is fact and not myth. Why would God participate in a myth? What would be the motivation on his part?
Att: Koan
If you had some kind of authority in a particular location and one day you decided to extend your authority, beyond your location, into someone else's territory, and the owner of that territory by whatever means stopped you from trespassing, would you claim that the owner of that territory had changed his mind? Do you have the right to encroach on someone else's property? Does the onwer of a property have the right to keep intruders out? Is exercising one's rights a mind change?
If I showed up at your house uninvited and you threw me out? Did you change your mind? Did I have a right to be there? Do you have a right to keep me out of your nice house?
So, did God change his mind, by stopping the tower builders from extending into the sky beyond the earth? Did God give them authority in the sky or on earth?
The Word
That argument is ridiculous on the grounds that the sky meets the earth so we'd be encroaching on God's territory just by standing up.
The Word
eword;1347017 wrote: The story is fact and not myth. Why would God participate in a myth? What would be the motivation on his part?
This quote is priceless.
This quote is priceless.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple