5 More Anglican Bishops left the church today and have joined the Catholic faith...
Do we care?
Anglicans Defecting
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dchistoryman
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:35 am
Anglicans Defecting
Heh, I initially read the title as "Anglicans Defecating" 
Why are they leaving? Maybe it read it correctly after all.
Why are they leaving? Maybe it read it correctly after all.
Anglicans Defecting
yaaarrrgg;1342847 wrote: Heh, I initially read the title as "Anglicans Defecating"
Why are they leaving? Maybe it read it correctly after all.
Presumably they have issues with the ordination of women.
Do we care? I don't think so - probably better that they go over to the Catholics than the Anglican Church splits into two competing factions.
Why are they leaving? Maybe it read it correctly after all.
Presumably they have issues with the ordination of women.
Do we care? I don't think so - probably better that they go over to the Catholics than the Anglican Church splits into two competing factions.
Anglicans Defecting
dchistoryman;1342842 wrote: 5 More Anglican Bishops left the church today and have joined the Catholic faith...
Do we care?
Personally no but it is ironic they choose the weekend of the 5th of November to do so. Was watching V last night, good film but how come a character that tried to restore a catholic monarchy by blowing up parliament and a protestant king become hero? Maybe we should remember what it was all about and what was at stake at the time.
Do we care?
Personally no but it is ironic they choose the weekend of the 5th of November to do so. Was watching V last night, good film but how come a character that tried to restore a catholic monarchy by blowing up parliament and a protestant king become hero? Maybe we should remember what it was all about and what was at stake at the time.
Anglicans Defecting
gmc;1342860 wrote: Personally no but it is ironic they choose the weekend of the 5th of November to do so. Was watching V last night, good film but how come a character that tried to restore a catholic monarchy by blowing up parliament and a protestant king become hero?
Did he? He suffered terribly before he died, and was reviled for many years, but then many people never even learned what Bonfire Night was about as far as religion went. Fawkes has never been a hero, except jokingly when government does something unpopular.
Did he? He suffered terribly before he died, and was reviled for many years, but then many people never even learned what Bonfire Night was about as far as religion went. Fawkes has never been a hero, except jokingly when government does something unpopular.
Anglicans Defecting
There's a couple of graphic comics and films where a guy fawkes character is a hero and a popular blog site supposedly standing up for free speech. but you're right I'm exaggerating slightly. I don't think it's a case people don't know but rather forget why it mattered. We try and forget our sectarian past but I don't think we should forget why it got that way.
Anglicans Defecting
gmc;1342886 wrote: There's a couple of graphic comics and films where a guy fawkes character is a hero and a popular blog site supposedly standing up for free speech.
So is this some sort of a popish stunt, getting Anglican defectors to be associated with heroism?
If so, two retired bishops and three guys you've never heard of seems more like a damp squib.
but you're right I'm exaggerating slightly.
More than slightly, methinks.
I don't think it's a case people don't know but rather forget why it mattered. We try and forget our sectarian past but I don't think we should forget why it got that way.
I quite agree. One does not want a return to the old animosities, let alone violence, but knowing one's own history is the safer way to live.
So is this some sort of a popish stunt, getting Anglican defectors to be associated with heroism?
If so, two retired bishops and three guys you've never heard of seems more like a damp squib.
but you're right I'm exaggerating slightly.
More than slightly, methinks.
I don't think it's a case people don't know but rather forget why it mattered. We try and forget our sectarian past but I don't think we should forget why it got that way.
I quite agree. One does not want a return to the old animosities, let alone violence, but knowing one's own history is the safer way to live.
Anglicans Defecting
Bryn Mawr;1342858 wrote: Presumably they have issues with the ordination of women.
Do we care? I don't think so - probably better that they go over to the Catholics than the Anglican Church splits into two competing factions.
So the sexists are leaving? Seems like the Catholic Church is at risk of turning into a big sewer for the Anglican church.
Do we care? I don't think so - probably better that they go over to the Catholics than the Anglican Church splits into two competing factions.
So the sexists are leaving? Seems like the Catholic Church is at risk of turning into a big sewer for the Anglican church.
Anglicans Defecting
Whats the difference between Anglicans and Catholics?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Anglicans Defecting
Catholics seem a bit more entrenched in old school traditions to me. IIRC Anglicans allow gay and female priests.
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dchistoryman
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:35 am
Anglicans Defecting
Transubstantiation and that's it. basically they differ between how they interperet the presence of the body of Christ in the host, all mumbo jumbo.
My personal answer is that I don't care at all except on the level that there is a huge institution in the world that still treats women as second class citizens but then it's religion so don't expect change anytime soon.
My personal answer is that I don't care at all except on the level that there is a huge institution in the world that still treats women as second class citizens but then it's religion so don't expect change anytime soon.
Anglicans Defecting
dchistoryman;1343016 wrote: Transubstantiation and that's it.
It's more than that; though that alone is a massive difference, making the difference between Protestantism and Catholicism equivalent to that between Christianity and Islam, or even Hinduism. And indeed, it's the same difference, after one has cleared away the nomenclature.
Transubstantiation was the dogma that brought about the great upheavals of Europe in the transition from medievalism to modernity. It is the teaching that, in advanced economies, even Catholic priests are ashamed to admit to, and say they don't believe in. But nevertheless, transubstantiation remains emphatic Vatican teaching today, along with many other differences between the RCC and all other mainstream denominations except the Eastern Orthodox.
Although previously, the RCC had treated the bread of their 'Eucharist' as literally the body of Jesus, it was not until 1215 that they actually announced this doctrine, and simultaneously made the priests who allegedly put it into practice more liable to get respect from others. This is what happened- the local priest then had unique status, unique power to confect God with his hands- and woe betide any who dared cross his path. This led to greater influence of Vatican over ordinary serfs, but also over the growing middle classes as well as monarchs, who did not appreciate this incursion. It led to abuses, with priests taking advantage in matters pecuniary and sexual, even committing murder, yet not liable to prosecution in ordinary civil courts, but in the Vatican's own, where lenience was the watchword, if one could get a conviction at all. And that pleased no-one but the miscreants and their employer. Along with the theological differences that underlay transubstantiation and other teachings, this influence, that must be categorised as political, precipitated the Reformation and the gradual removal of religion from politics and state interference in the lives of citizens.
That interference persists even now. Those five men may not be many, or well known, but they reflect an insidious desire in influential places.
It's more than that; though that alone is a massive difference, making the difference between Protestantism and Catholicism equivalent to that between Christianity and Islam, or even Hinduism. And indeed, it's the same difference, after one has cleared away the nomenclature.
Transubstantiation was the dogma that brought about the great upheavals of Europe in the transition from medievalism to modernity. It is the teaching that, in advanced economies, even Catholic priests are ashamed to admit to, and say they don't believe in. But nevertheless, transubstantiation remains emphatic Vatican teaching today, along with many other differences between the RCC and all other mainstream denominations except the Eastern Orthodox.
Although previously, the RCC had treated the bread of their 'Eucharist' as literally the body of Jesus, it was not until 1215 that they actually announced this doctrine, and simultaneously made the priests who allegedly put it into practice more liable to get respect from others. This is what happened- the local priest then had unique status, unique power to confect God with his hands- and woe betide any who dared cross his path. This led to greater influence of Vatican over ordinary serfs, but also over the growing middle classes as well as monarchs, who did not appreciate this incursion. It led to abuses, with priests taking advantage in matters pecuniary and sexual, even committing murder, yet not liable to prosecution in ordinary civil courts, but in the Vatican's own, where lenience was the watchword, if one could get a conviction at all. And that pleased no-one but the miscreants and their employer. Along with the theological differences that underlay transubstantiation and other teachings, this influence, that must be categorised as political, precipitated the Reformation and the gradual removal of religion from politics and state interference in the lives of citizens.
That interference persists even now. Those five men may not be many, or well known, but they reflect an insidious desire in influential places.
Anglicans Defecting
yaaarrrgg;1342979 wrote: Catholics seem a bit more entrenched in old school traditions to me. IIRC Anglicans allow gay and female priests.So they're progressive?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Anglicans Defecting
I think the main issue between Anglicans and Catholics was the authority of the Pope.
At least that is how the two originally split.
The trigger point was when King of England did not fully submit to the Pope's authority.
Any further doctrinal/Dogma differences sprang up after that.
At least that is how the two originally split.
The trigger point was when King of England did not fully submit to the Pope's authority.
Any further doctrinal/Dogma differences sprang up after that.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Anglicans Defecting
LarsMac;1343039 wrote: I think the main issue between Anglicans and Catholics was the authority of the Pope.
At least that is how the two originally split.
The trigger point was when King of England did not fully submit to the Pope's authority.
Any further doctrinal/Dogma differences sprang up after that.Thanks, Larsmac, its good to see you.
At least that is how the two originally split.
The trigger point was when King of England did not fully submit to the Pope's authority.
Any further doctrinal/Dogma differences sprang up after that.Thanks, Larsmac, its good to see you.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Anglicans Defecting
LarsMac;1343039 wrote: I think the main issue between Anglicans and Catholics was the authority of the Pope.
At least that is how the two originally split.
It was the cause of one split. Henry permitted no significant changes of theology or practice. He put an end to some excessive adoration of relics, but a pope might well have done the same. It was only after Henry died that any other changes came in.
What is interesting in this case is that people theologically trained, bishops, have moved to Rome on the ground of a relatively minor difference about gender. When Elizabeth I brought in those changes, the papacy pronounced her excommunicated and indeed exhorted the English to disobey her, because she had no authority to make alterations in the church. Now popes have always claimed their authority from the words of Jesus in Matthew 16:18, which Anglicans must of course say is misinterpretation, and the person called 'pope' has no authority in England. But if the Vatican's version is the true meaning of Jesus' words, it's difficult to see why it suddenly becomes truth because of ordination of women.
Perhaps there is no surprise that minor and retired Anglicans have dared to make the move.
At least that is how the two originally split.
It was the cause of one split. Henry permitted no significant changes of theology or practice. He put an end to some excessive adoration of relics, but a pope might well have done the same. It was only after Henry died that any other changes came in.
What is interesting in this case is that people theologically trained, bishops, have moved to Rome on the ground of a relatively minor difference about gender. When Elizabeth I brought in those changes, the papacy pronounced her excommunicated and indeed exhorted the English to disobey her, because she had no authority to make alterations in the church. Now popes have always claimed their authority from the words of Jesus in Matthew 16:18, which Anglicans must of course say is misinterpretation, and the person called 'pope' has no authority in England. But if the Vatican's version is the true meaning of Jesus' words, it's difficult to see why it suddenly becomes truth because of ordination of women.
Perhaps there is no surprise that minor and retired Anglicans have dared to make the move.
Anglicans Defecting
Of course the Anglican church is too close to the catholic church for many of the other protestant churches but give the Christians their due at least nowadays they don't slaughter each other over it. This stuff does your head in of you really get in to it and take it seriously.
Anglicans Defecting
gmc;1343051 wrote: Of course the Anglican church is too close to the catholic church for many of the other protestant churches but give the Christians their due at least nowadays they don't slaughter each other over it. This stuff does your head in of you really get in to it and take it seriously.Thats only due to the fact that its illegal now. They do massacre people in other ways such as in the media, politically, trying to shame people in their communities and every now and then we find out they've murdered a doctor or two.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Anglicans Defecting
gmc;1343051 wrote: Of course the Anglican church is too close to the catholic church for many of the other protestant churches but give the Christians their due at least nowadays they don't slaughter each other over it.
They never did.
It suits those who disobey Christ to say that they did, obviously.
They never did.
It suits those who disobey Christ to say that they did, obviously.
Anglicans Defecting
Quick question for the americans, especially those who are of protestant denominations, and I'm not trying be facetious i'm curious, do you learn about the origins of the protestant sects and what sparked off the reformation? The reformation shaped the UK and yours as well and the defeat of the catholics was a major o part of that. As someone growing up where sectarianism was learned in primary school it's hard not to know the difference. The Anglican church is not the established church in scotland and the last time they tried to make it so there was outright warfare - because it was seen as papist. Little old ladies used to throw threw stools and other things at bishops to show how they felt. You just need to look at northern ireland to see the passions it arouses.
posting by ahso
Whats the difference between Anglicans and Catholics?
Who rules, political leaders or popes. The queen is the head of the anglican church no the pope. There has only ever been one catholic president and that was kennedy and his religion was an issue. when it came right down to it would he obey the rules of the catholic church or the wishes of those who elected him. In the states abortion is an issue, how would it track if it was only the catholic church that objected? Would you countenance having the pope dictating to you on birth control and telling you it should not be available, even to non catholics?
Because that is not a question you have to ask thanks to the reformation. That's part of the problem in northern ireland the protestants don't want to join the catholic south and have the pope dictating to them.
posting by ahso
Whats the difference between Anglicans and Catholics?
Who rules, political leaders or popes. The queen is the head of the anglican church no the pope. There has only ever been one catholic president and that was kennedy and his religion was an issue. when it came right down to it would he obey the rules of the catholic church or the wishes of those who elected him. In the states abortion is an issue, how would it track if it was only the catholic church that objected? Would you countenance having the pope dictating to you on birth control and telling you it should not be available, even to non catholics?
Because that is not a question you have to ask thanks to the reformation. That's part of the problem in northern ireland the protestants don't want to join the catholic south and have the pope dictating to them.
Anglicans Defecting
It was a serious question. Every Saturday we have football teams representing the different faiths catholic/protestant doing surrogate battle and sometimes in spills out in to real battle on the streets - though not as much as it used to. Being the wrong religion can prevent you getting a job with the council in glasgow, at one point they even used different coloured application forms, and trust me on this, I am not kidding. Sectarianism is dying out but very very slowly not helped by separate schools and things like the pope's visit whose comments were fairly antagonistic. So for someone to ask what is the difference quite frankly I find hard to credit. OK the protestant reformation happened in a country far far away and long long ago but it shaped your destiny in a very real sense. How can you be a member of a protestant church and not know why you are called protestant?