Says Germany's Chancellor and I have to agree with her. without assimilation, immigrants set up "countries within a country" and that leads to hatred, alienation, disenfranchisement, Balkanization and genocide.
Merkel says German multi-cultural society has failed - Yahoo! News
BERLIN (AFP) – Germany's attempt to create a multi-cultural society has failed completely, Chancellor Angela Merkel said at the weekend, calling on the country's immigrants to learn German and adopt Christian values.
Merkel weighed in for the first time in a blistering debate sparked by a central bank board member saying the country was being made "more stupid" by poorly educated and unproductive Muslim migrants.
"Multikulti", the concept that "we are now living side by side and are happy about it," does not work, Merkel told a meeting of younger members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party at Potsdam near Berlin.
"This approach has failed, totally," she said, adding that immigrants should integrate and adopt Germany's culture and values.
"We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here," said the chancellor.
"Subsidising immigrants" isn't sufficient, Germany has the right to "make demands" on them, she added, such as mastering the language of Goethe and abandoning practices such as forced marriages.
Merkel spoke a week after talks with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in which they pledged to do more to improve the often poor integration record of Germany's 2.5-million-strong Turkish community.
Turkish President Abdullah Gul, in a weekend interview, also urged the Turkish community living in Germany to master the language of their adopted country.
"When one doesn't speak the language of the country in which one lives that doesn't serve anyone, neither the person concerned, the country, nor the society," the Turkish president told the Suedeutsche Zeitung.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Multiculturalism is a Failure
I have to say that I totally agree with her.
Multi-cultural societies I do not believe work and It Is experimentation In social engineering.
In many cases ( not all ) bad management In council housing has led to sprawling sink estates that are a Nation within a Nation. The utopia that some Imagine from a multi-culture society often fails because the hard fact of life, Is that whilst we are tolerant of ethnic minorities In our countries, we do not Integrate that well.
You only have to look to the British disastrous attempts at colonisation through-out the years to see that social engineering has failed.
Multi-cultural societies I do not believe work and It Is experimentation In social engineering.
In many cases ( not all ) bad management In council housing has led to sprawling sink estates that are a Nation within a Nation. The utopia that some Imagine from a multi-culture society often fails because the hard fact of life, Is that whilst we are tolerant of ethnic minorities In our countries, we do not Integrate that well.
You only have to look to the British disastrous attempts at colonisation through-out the years to see that social engineering has failed.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Kinda throws a wrench in the global society thing dunnit?
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Yeah, although I think you could still have a world government, but You'd have to keep everyone home on the farm. Too much multicultural mixing seems to cause problems.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Sounds like rubbish to me. My grandmother only spoke German before she started school. What is with the obsession with language differences? That's what schools are for.
"We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here," said the chancellor.
Sounds a bit more like the nazi's than Jesus.
"We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here," said the chancellor.
Sounds a bit more like the nazi's than Jesus.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Multiculture can work. It has to have a foundation, though.
Everyone needs to agree on basics.
Common language is key, I think.
Common religion is not.
I can get along with a lot of people who don't see God the way I do, but I have poor language skills in anything other than English, and it is difficult to communicate without some language foundations.
I work very hard to learn the other folks' language when I go to another country, and if I was planning to live there, learning the language would be my first priority.
Everyone needs to agree on basics.
Common language is key, I think.
Common religion is not.
I can get along with a lot of people who don't see God the way I do, but I have poor language skills in anything other than English, and it is difficult to communicate without some language foundations.
I work very hard to learn the other folks' language when I go to another country, and if I was planning to live there, learning the language would be my first priority.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Agreeing to the common Law of the Land is also critical.
You cannot have one "culture" living by one Law, while another lives by their own Law.
You cannot have one "culture" living by one Law, while another lives by their own Law.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Multiculturalism is a Failure
It depends on what the ambition of multiculturalism is. If you want to melt them into one identity then, yes, utter disasterous failure, thank goodness. If you want to be able to find little bits of culture throughout your major cities then it's a huge success. I love going to Chinatown, Little India, etc. I'm so glad they exist though regret that it doesn't really tell me what it's like to live there.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
yaaarrrgg;1339405 wrote: Sounds like rubbish to me. My grandmother only spoke German before she started school.
True...but then she learned English and that is your primary language now!
What is with the obsession with language differences?
Simple. Unless the people of a nation can communicate they can't collaborate or more importantly, work out their differences. So they begin to isolate themselves into enclaves where everyone speaks their language. In California, even third and fourth generation Hispanics don't speak English.
Isolation breeds mistrust. The majority group will begin to pass laws against the minority non-speaking group. Since they can't vote or make their positions understood, they become victims of the native speakers. More hatred, more animosity results.
Eventually you get Balkanization and genocide. How can we have a UNION if we can't communicate with each other? A single national language is critical.
That's what schools are for.
Sure...but if you can't speak the language, how can you enroll at all? Worse yet, since your parents and your community isolates itself, you tend not to go to school at all. I have a 60% drop out rate for Hispanic-Americans in my school.
True...but then she learned English and that is your primary language now!
What is with the obsession with language differences?
Simple. Unless the people of a nation can communicate they can't collaborate or more importantly, work out their differences. So they begin to isolate themselves into enclaves where everyone speaks their language. In California, even third and fourth generation Hispanics don't speak English.
Isolation breeds mistrust. The majority group will begin to pass laws against the minority non-speaking group. Since they can't vote or make their positions understood, they become victims of the native speakers. More hatred, more animosity results.
Eventually you get Balkanization and genocide. How can we have a UNION if we can't communicate with each other? A single national language is critical.
That's what schools are for.
Sure...but if you can't speak the language, how can you enroll at all? Worse yet, since your parents and your community isolates itself, you tend not to go to school at all. I have a 60% drop out rate for Hispanic-Americans in my school.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
koan;1339434 wrote: It depends on what the ambition of multiculturalism is. If you want to melt them into one identity then, yes, utter disasterous failure, thank goodness. If you want to be able to find little bits of culture throughout your major cities then it's a huge success. I love going to Chinatown, Little India, etc. I'm so glad they exist though regret that it doesn't really tell me what it's like to live there.
I agree with Koan. Celebrate your culture, it's who you are, but become a part of a bigger union and assimilate into that society, especially their language. Think about it, would you go to Norway and expect the entire country to learn your language? If they wouldn't, what would you do? Set up an English speaking neighborhood? Begin to isolate yourself from the bigger country?
I agree with Koan. Celebrate your culture, it's who you are, but become a part of a bigger union and assimilate into that society, especially their language. Think about it, would you go to Norway and expect the entire country to learn your language? If they wouldn't, what would you do? Set up an English speaking neighborhood? Begin to isolate yourself from the bigger country?
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Saint_;1339555 wrote: True...but then she learned English and that is your primary language now!
Simple. Unless the people of a nation can communicate they can't collaborate or more importantly, work out their differences. So they begin to isolate themselves into enclaves where everyone speaks their language. In California, even third and fourth generation Hispanics don't speak English.
As for California, I'm a bit puzzled how the schools can't manage to teach English. We did this in the old days just fine with immigrants coming in from all corners of the globe, with little or no budget or technology. Send in bi-lingual Americans and have them teach the schools. But the problem is, finding a bi-lingual American nowadays.
Simple. Unless the people of a nation can communicate they can't collaborate or more importantly, work out their differences. So they begin to isolate themselves into enclaves where everyone speaks their language. In California, even third and fourth generation Hispanics don't speak English.
As for California, I'm a bit puzzled how the schools can't manage to teach English. We did this in the old days just fine with immigrants coming in from all corners of the globe, with little or no budget or technology. Send in bi-lingual Americans and have them teach the schools. But the problem is, finding a bi-lingual American nowadays.
-
recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Multiculturalism is a Failure
I wanted to wait a couple of days before commenting here, so that I could have a little time to look up some background info on the situation in Germany, because these stories on immigration in Western Europe never apply the context of how Europe has dealt with immigration in the past.
The first thing that jumps out is that Europe has a long tradition of combining national identity with language and racial identity, so whether we're talking about Germany, France, Holland, Sweden, England, Scotland etc. etc. there's no way of getting around the fact that the immigrant experience up to recent times has been to be given 2nd class citizenship (like Germany's Turkish "guest workers") and create ghettos to keep the immigrants in separate neighbourhoods.....France would be the most obvious example of this.
So now that Europe is aging, and wants immigration to balance things out, they are having trouble pretending that there is no problem with being German or French or English and being a visible minority. Angela Merkel says she's not happy with Turks who haven't adopted 'German culture' and the language; but who's fault is this? When Germany started bringing in Turks as guest workers in the 60's, they had no intentions of integrating them into German society; and now she's indignant that Turks have stayed in their own ghettos, speaking their own language!
Maybe something was lost in the translation, but what the hell was this supposed to mean anyway:
"This approach has failed, totally," she said, adding that immigrants should integrate and adopt Germany's culture and values.
"We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here," said the chancellor.
Germany is legally still a theocracy, like most countries in Europe -- does this appeal to Christian values indicate an attempt to bring more religion back into government and the public square?
Being a natural cynic, I'm wondering if this is an appeal to social conservatives, similar to the way other supposedly mainstream conservatives across Europe are making appeals to the far right, anti-immigrant segment of the population.
Maybe Angela Merkel is watching the latest polls:
Why 13 percent of Germans would welcome a 'Führer'
A new survey signals that Germany, where the term 'Führer,' or leader, is explicitly linked to Adolf Hitler, is not immune from the far-right sentiments that are spreading across Europe.
The study's overall snapshot of German society shows new forms of extremism and hate are no longer the province of far-right cohorts who shave their heads or wear leather jackets adorned with silver skulls – but register in the tweedy political center, on the right and the left. Indeed, the study found, extremism in Germany isn’t a fringe phenomenon but is found in the political center, "in all social groups and in all age groups, regardless of employment status, educational level or gender."
Far-right parties gain power across Europe
The year 2010 is marking a clear shift toward extremist politics across Europe, analysts say. An uncertain economy, a gap between elites and ordinary Europeans, and fraying of a traditional sense of national identity has just in the past month brought more hard-line politics and speech, often aimed at Islam or immigrants – into a political mainstream where it had been absent or considered taboo.
It's like it's 1933 all over again!
And since this story was placed as an overall attack on multiculturalism; for all of what's wrong with multiculturalism (both real and imagined), in a reasonably free and open society, the process of integration is inevitable. If you actually take the time to talk to anyone who comes from India or some other far off country, they will tell you that they are not considered fully Indian after being in Canada or any Western nation for a significant part of time. And their children are often viewed as foreigners when they go visit or look for work in Bangalore. It's not a lot different than what happened to immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe, when they first arrived in North America. They didn't get a warm reception either, but didn't face many unreasonable restrictions. The first generation wanted to keep strong ties with the family back home, and keep their languages alive. They didn't want their children (especially daughters) marrying outside of their ethnic group. But after 2nd and 3rd generation, the languages are lost, along with the ties to cousins in the old country.
Multiculturalism looks like a problem similar to picking a scab! The more you try to fix it, the worse it gets; if you leave it alone, it will take care of itself.
The first thing that jumps out is that Europe has a long tradition of combining national identity with language and racial identity, so whether we're talking about Germany, France, Holland, Sweden, England, Scotland etc. etc. there's no way of getting around the fact that the immigrant experience up to recent times has been to be given 2nd class citizenship (like Germany's Turkish "guest workers") and create ghettos to keep the immigrants in separate neighbourhoods.....France would be the most obvious example of this.
So now that Europe is aging, and wants immigration to balance things out, they are having trouble pretending that there is no problem with being German or French or English and being a visible minority. Angela Merkel says she's not happy with Turks who haven't adopted 'German culture' and the language; but who's fault is this? When Germany started bringing in Turks as guest workers in the 60's, they had no intentions of integrating them into German society; and now she's indignant that Turks have stayed in their own ghettos, speaking their own language!
Maybe something was lost in the translation, but what the hell was this supposed to mean anyway:
"This approach has failed, totally," she said, adding that immigrants should integrate and adopt Germany's culture and values.
"We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here," said the chancellor.
Germany is legally still a theocracy, like most countries in Europe -- does this appeal to Christian values indicate an attempt to bring more religion back into government and the public square?
Being a natural cynic, I'm wondering if this is an appeal to social conservatives, similar to the way other supposedly mainstream conservatives across Europe are making appeals to the far right, anti-immigrant segment of the population.
Maybe Angela Merkel is watching the latest polls:
Why 13 percent of Germans would welcome a 'Führer'
A new survey signals that Germany, where the term 'Führer,' or leader, is explicitly linked to Adolf Hitler, is not immune from the far-right sentiments that are spreading across Europe.
The study's overall snapshot of German society shows new forms of extremism and hate are no longer the province of far-right cohorts who shave their heads or wear leather jackets adorned with silver skulls – but register in the tweedy political center, on the right and the left. Indeed, the study found, extremism in Germany isn’t a fringe phenomenon but is found in the political center, "in all social groups and in all age groups, regardless of employment status, educational level or gender."
Far-right parties gain power across Europe
The year 2010 is marking a clear shift toward extremist politics across Europe, analysts say. An uncertain economy, a gap between elites and ordinary Europeans, and fraying of a traditional sense of national identity has just in the past month brought more hard-line politics and speech, often aimed at Islam or immigrants – into a political mainstream where it had been absent or considered taboo.
It's like it's 1933 all over again!
And since this story was placed as an overall attack on multiculturalism; for all of what's wrong with multiculturalism (both real and imagined), in a reasonably free and open society, the process of integration is inevitable. If you actually take the time to talk to anyone who comes from India or some other far off country, they will tell you that they are not considered fully Indian after being in Canada or any Western nation for a significant part of time. And their children are often viewed as foreigners when they go visit or look for work in Bangalore. It's not a lot different than what happened to immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe, when they first arrived in North America. They didn't get a warm reception either, but didn't face many unreasonable restrictions. The first generation wanted to keep strong ties with the family back home, and keep their languages alive. They didn't want their children (especially daughters) marrying outside of their ethnic group. But after 2nd and 3rd generation, the languages are lost, along with the ties to cousins in the old country.
Multiculturalism looks like a problem similar to picking a scab! The more you try to fix it, the worse it gets; if you leave it alone, it will take care of itself.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
recovering conservative;1339568 wrote:
It's like it's 1933 all over again!
Yeah, spooky, huh? I'm for assimilation of minorities, but I have no problem with them. I just want them to join up with the rest of us. You want to be an American? Fine...be an American. Learn our language and customs and be American.
I'm not for vilifying them or demonizing them ala "Das Juden."
It's not a lot different than what happened to immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe, when they first arrived in North America. They didn't get a warm reception either, but didn't face many unreasonable restrictions. The first generation wanted to keep strong ties with the family back home, and keep their languages alive. They didn't want their children (especially daughters) marrying outside of their ethnic group. But after 2nd and 3rd generation, the languages are lost, along with the ties to cousins in the old country.
And that's EXACTLY the problem I have and many have with recent immigration waves, they refuse to assimilate. The original wave couldn't wait to become part of America, but the new wave refuses.
It's like it's 1933 all over again!
Yeah, spooky, huh? I'm for assimilation of minorities, but I have no problem with them. I just want them to join up with the rest of us. You want to be an American? Fine...be an American. Learn our language and customs and be American.
I'm not for vilifying them or demonizing them ala "Das Juden."
It's not a lot different than what happened to immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe, when they first arrived in North America. They didn't get a warm reception either, but didn't face many unreasonable restrictions. The first generation wanted to keep strong ties with the family back home, and keep their languages alive. They didn't want their children (especially daughters) marrying outside of their ethnic group. But after 2nd and 3rd generation, the languages are lost, along with the ties to cousins in the old country.
And that's EXACTLY the problem I have and many have with recent immigration waves, they refuse to assimilate. The original wave couldn't wait to become part of America, but the new wave refuses.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
yaaarrrgg;1339565 wrote: As for California, I'm a bit puzzled how the schools can't manage to teach English.
Oh they teach it better than ever...but the students don't show up!
Most of my Hispanic-American students average 85 days a year missing and unexcused. And yes, we have plenty of bilingual teachers (it's almost a requirement now) but they need the students to be there to do their job. They won't let us go to the kid's homes and drag them to school...unfortunately.
Oh they teach it better than ever...but the students don't show up!
Most of my Hispanic-American students average 85 days a year missing and unexcused. And yes, we have plenty of bilingual teachers (it's almost a requirement now) but they need the students to be there to do their job. They won't let us go to the kid's homes and drag them to school...unfortunately.
-
recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Saint_;1339572 wrote: Yeah, spooky, huh? I'm for assimilation of minorities, but I have no problem with them. I just want them to join up with the rest of us. You want to be an American? Fine...be an American. Learn our language and customs and be American.
I'm not for vilifying them or demonizing them ala "Das Juden."
And what exactly do you consider 'refusal to assimilate?' Usually the majority culture resists having them assimilated.
Every far right group usually claims that they're not racist; they just complain that the immigrants are not learning our language or adopting our culture. Setting aside the issue that our culture used to be White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and is changing whether we like it or not -- it's no surprise that many white supremacists populate the far right, and the leaders occasionally let their true motives slip out when they get worked up about the decline of the white population.
And that's EXACTLY the problem I have and many have with recent immigration waves, they refuse to assimilate. The original wave couldn't wait to become part of America, but the new wave refuses.
Again, how do we know this? The earlier immigrations had it a little easier because they looked like us, or were at least close enough, and there was a lot of outrage about Catholicism taking over in America and in Canada 100 years ago, just like there is about Islam now. The Tea Party candidates and the Republicans like Newt Gingrich that are trying to position themselves for their support, are calling for a total ban on the building of new mosques in America (not just 2 blocks away from the WTC) -- does this so called populist movement indicate a resurgence of nativism in America, or that Muslim immigrants will be allowed to assimilate?
I'm not for vilifying them or demonizing them ala "Das Juden."
And what exactly do you consider 'refusal to assimilate?' Usually the majority culture resists having them assimilated.
Every far right group usually claims that they're not racist; they just complain that the immigrants are not learning our language or adopting our culture. Setting aside the issue that our culture used to be White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and is changing whether we like it or not -- it's no surprise that many white supremacists populate the far right, and the leaders occasionally let their true motives slip out when they get worked up about the decline of the white population.
And that's EXACTLY the problem I have and many have with recent immigration waves, they refuse to assimilate. The original wave couldn't wait to become part of America, but the new wave refuses.
Again, how do we know this? The earlier immigrations had it a little easier because they looked like us, or were at least close enough, and there was a lot of outrage about Catholicism taking over in America and in Canada 100 years ago, just like there is about Islam now. The Tea Party candidates and the Republicans like Newt Gingrich that are trying to position themselves for their support, are calling for a total ban on the building of new mosques in America (not just 2 blocks away from the WTC) -- does this so called populist movement indicate a resurgence of nativism in America, or that Muslim immigrants will be allowed to assimilate?
Multiculturalism is a Failure
recovering conservative;1339577 wrote: And what exactly do you consider 'refusal to assimilate?' Usually the majority culture resists having them assimilated.
Every far right group usually claims that they're not racist; they just complain that the immigrants are not learning our language or adopting our culture. Setting aside the issue that our culture used to be White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and is changing whether we like it or not -- it's no surprise that many white supremacists populate the far right, and the leaders occasionally let their true motives slip out when they get worked up about the decline of the white population.
I tend to agree. The majority culture is acting like it's completely beaten and against the ropes, having all it's options exhausted by the minority culture. How is this? Does the minority have supernatural powers?
The reality is that the majority culture is holding all the chips. It can do anything it wants to, and already has in alienating these people. How many Germans move into predominantly Turkish areas? Just by shear number, the Borg could overtake these areas in a matter of days.
Every far right group usually claims that they're not racist; they just complain that the immigrants are not learning our language or adopting our culture. Setting aside the issue that our culture used to be White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and is changing whether we like it or not -- it's no surprise that many white supremacists populate the far right, and the leaders occasionally let their true motives slip out when they get worked up about the decline of the white population.
I tend to agree. The majority culture is acting like it's completely beaten and against the ropes, having all it's options exhausted by the minority culture. How is this? Does the minority have supernatural powers?
The reality is that the majority culture is holding all the chips. It can do anything it wants to, and already has in alienating these people. How many Germans move into predominantly Turkish areas? Just by shear number, the Borg could overtake these areas in a matter of days.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
yaaarrrgg;1339585 wrote: I tend to agree. The majority culture is acting like it's completely beaten and against the ropes, having all it's options exhausted by the minority culture. How is this? Does the minority have supernatural powers?
The reality is that the majority culture is holding all the chips. It can do anything it wants to, and already has in alienating these people. How many Germans move into predominantly Turkish areas? Just by shear number, the Borg could overtake these areas in a matter of days.I guess those places are not fit for German inhabitants. I hope Germany is not to its old tricks. Merkel is a bit frightening.
The reality is that the majority culture is holding all the chips. It can do anything it wants to, and already has in alienating these people. How many Germans move into predominantly Turkish areas? Just by shear number, the Borg could overtake these areas in a matter of days.I guess those places are not fit for German inhabitants. I hope Germany is not to its old tricks. Merkel is a bit frightening.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Multiculturalism is a Failure
recovering conservative;1339577 wrote: And what exactly do you consider 'refusal to assimilate?'
Refusing to learn english is the big one, but refusing to following things like judicial systems is another example. (See: Sharia law in England)
Again, how do we know this?
Census statistics from California are pretty clear.
Refusing to learn english is the big one, but refusing to following things like judicial systems is another example. (See: Sharia law in England)
Again, how do we know this?
Census statistics from California are pretty clear.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
yaaarrrgg;1339585 wrote:
The reality is that the majority culture is holding all the chips. It can do anything it wants to, and already has in alienating these people.
Maybe you missed it when I said it earlier, but I'll restate it: That is exactly the problem. The majority population will discriminate against and fear a small group of "outsiders." it's human nature. If a culture chooses not to assimilate into it's new society, they you get exactly the backlash, alienation, hatred, bigotry, and racism that you are talking about.
To put it bluntly: which is harder, to discriminate against an obviously Hispanic-American couple shopping in a store dressed in traditional Mexican clothes and speaking Spanish to each other? Or the same couple dressed in modern American clothes, speaking perfect English to each other?
Get my point?
The reality is that the majority culture is holding all the chips. It can do anything it wants to, and already has in alienating these people.
Maybe you missed it when I said it earlier, but I'll restate it: That is exactly the problem. The majority population will discriminate against and fear a small group of "outsiders." it's human nature. If a culture chooses not to assimilate into it's new society, they you get exactly the backlash, alienation, hatred, bigotry, and racism that you are talking about.
To put it bluntly: which is harder, to discriminate against an obviously Hispanic-American couple shopping in a store dressed in traditional Mexican clothes and speaking Spanish to each other? Or the same couple dressed in modern American clothes, speaking perfect English to each other?
Get my point?
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Saint_;1339602 wrote: Maybe you missed it when I said it earlier, but I'll restate it: That is exactly the problem. The majority population will discriminate against and fear a small group of "outsiders." it's human nature. If a culture chooses not to assimilate into it's new society, they you get exactly the backlash, alienation, hatred, bigotry, and racism that you are talking about.
To put it bluntly: which is harder, to discriminate against an obviously Hispanic-American couple shopping in a store dressed in traditional Mexican clothes and speaking Spanish to each other? Or the same couple dressed in modern American clothes, speaking perfect English to each other?
Get my point?People can simply choose to not hate, discriminate, alienate and disply racism, can't they? Isn't that the Christian thing to do?
To put it bluntly: which is harder, to discriminate against an obviously Hispanic-American couple shopping in a store dressed in traditional Mexican clothes and speaking Spanish to each other? Or the same couple dressed in modern American clothes, speaking perfect English to each other?
Get my point?People can simply choose to not hate, discriminate, alienate and disply racism, can't they? Isn't that the Christian thing to do?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Ahso!;1339603 wrote: People can simply choose to not hate, discriminate, alienate and disply racism, can't they? Isn't that the Christian thing to do?
That's a great point and the subject of another thread. From experience, it seems that individuals can do that, but groups seem unable to.
Here's a conversation that illustrates my point:
The other day I had a discussion with a young man. What got me started was that he was publicly declaring to anyone who would listen that he was “Mexican.”
Me: Did you just say you were Mexican?
Kid: “I’m Mexican!”
Me: “Don’t you mean Mexican – American?”
Kid: “No, I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Were you born in Mexico?”
Kid: “No, I was born here.”
Me: “Then you are an American citizen. Anyone born in America is American.”
Kid: (Thinks for a second) “ I’m Mexican!”
Me: “Look, why did your parents come here?”
Kid: “To have a better life.”
Me: “As Americans? Because Americans have a higher standard of living?”
Kid: “I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Do you have some problem with being American?”
Kid: “I’m not American, I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Look, be proud of your culture, that’s your heritage, but realize that your parents wanted to be a part of America. They came here to make a dream of a better life come true as Americans. They gave birth to you here and you are also one of us, an American. You are a part of a great union of different people all working together. Doesn’t that make you proud to be an American?
Kid: (Looks confused for a second, then smirks) “I’m Mexican.”
I have a problem with this. If people will not become a part of a society, they will not enjoy it’s rights such as voting. The other people will pass laws against them. It's already happening in Arizona, California, and Texas. Eventually, since the two groups do not have a common language, distrust and fear will set in. It’s called, “Balkanization” and it ends in genocide.
That's a great point and the subject of another thread. From experience, it seems that individuals can do that, but groups seem unable to.
Here's a conversation that illustrates my point:
The other day I had a discussion with a young man. What got me started was that he was publicly declaring to anyone who would listen that he was “Mexican.”
Me: Did you just say you were Mexican?
Kid: “I’m Mexican!”
Me: “Don’t you mean Mexican – American?”
Kid: “No, I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Were you born in Mexico?”
Kid: “No, I was born here.”
Me: “Then you are an American citizen. Anyone born in America is American.”
Kid: (Thinks for a second) “ I’m Mexican!”
Me: “Look, why did your parents come here?”
Kid: “To have a better life.”
Me: “As Americans? Because Americans have a higher standard of living?”
Kid: “I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Do you have some problem with being American?”
Kid: “I’m not American, I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Look, be proud of your culture, that’s your heritage, but realize that your parents wanted to be a part of America. They came here to make a dream of a better life come true as Americans. They gave birth to you here and you are also one of us, an American. You are a part of a great union of different people all working together. Doesn’t that make you proud to be an American?
Kid: (Looks confused for a second, then smirks) “I’m Mexican.”
I have a problem with this. If people will not become a part of a society, they will not enjoy it’s rights such as voting. The other people will pass laws against them. It's already happening in Arizona, California, and Texas. Eventually, since the two groups do not have a common language, distrust and fear will set in. It’s called, “Balkanization” and it ends in genocide.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Saint_;1339605 wrote: That's a great point and the subject of another thread. From experience, it seems that individuals can do that, but groups seem unable to.
Here's a conversation that illustrates my point:
The other day I had a discussion with a young man. What got me started was that he was publicly declaring to anyone who would listen that he was “Mexican.”
Me: Did you just say you were Mexican?
Kid: “I’m Mexican!”
Me: “Don’t you mean Mexican – American?”
Kid: “No, I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Were you born in Mexico?”
Kid: “No, I was born here.”
Me: “Then you are an American citizen. Anyone born in America is American.”
Kid: (Thinks for a second) “ I’m Mexican!”
Me: “Look, why did your parents come here?”
Kid: “To have a better life.”
Me: “As Americans? Because Americans have a higher standard of living?”
Kid: “I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Do you have some problem with being American?”
Kid: “I’m not American, I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Look, be proud of your culture, that’s your heritage, but realize that your parents wanted to be a part of America. They came here to make a dream of a better life come true as Americans. They gave birth to you here and you are also one of us, an American. You are a part of a great union of different people all working together. Doesn’t that make you proud to be an American?
Kid: (Looks confused for a second, then smirks) “I’m Mexican.”
I have a problem with this. If people will not become a part of a society, they will not enjoy it’s rights such as voting. The other people will pass laws against them. It's already happening in Arizona, California, and Texas. Eventually, since the two groups do not have a common language, distrust and fear will set in. It’s called, “Balkanization” and it ends in genocide.Yeah, I recall reading this same (most likely invented) post from you in the past. Just try some Christian love next time. Mainly, the groups and individuals I hear complaining about all this stuff claim to be Christian.
Here's a conversation that illustrates my point:
The other day I had a discussion with a young man. What got me started was that he was publicly declaring to anyone who would listen that he was “Mexican.”
Me: Did you just say you were Mexican?
Kid: “I’m Mexican!”
Me: “Don’t you mean Mexican – American?”
Kid: “No, I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Were you born in Mexico?”
Kid: “No, I was born here.”
Me: “Then you are an American citizen. Anyone born in America is American.”
Kid: (Thinks for a second) “ I’m Mexican!”
Me: “Look, why did your parents come here?”
Kid: “To have a better life.”
Me: “As Americans? Because Americans have a higher standard of living?”
Kid: “I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Do you have some problem with being American?”
Kid: “I’m not American, I’m Mexican.”
Me: “Look, be proud of your culture, that’s your heritage, but realize that your parents wanted to be a part of America. They came here to make a dream of a better life come true as Americans. They gave birth to you here and you are also one of us, an American. You are a part of a great union of different people all working together. Doesn’t that make you proud to be an American?
Kid: (Looks confused for a second, then smirks) “I’m Mexican.”
I have a problem with this. If people will not become a part of a society, they will not enjoy it’s rights such as voting. The other people will pass laws against them. It's already happening in Arizona, California, and Texas. Eventually, since the two groups do not have a common language, distrust and fear will set in. It’s called, “Balkanization” and it ends in genocide.Yeah, I recall reading this same (most likely invented) post from you in the past. Just try some Christian love next time. Mainly, the groups and individuals I hear complaining about all this stuff claim to be Christian.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Multiculturalism is a Failure
To be a true racist, you must hate. You must hate another human being purely due to his colour, his religion or his country of origin. That Is a world away from being oppossed to mass un-controlled Immigration that puts a financial burden on the Infrastructure of your country.
Forced colonisation has always failed through-out history and I see open door policies by our governments as colonisation simply because of the Introduction of Sharia Law.
Forced colonisation has always failed through-out history and I see open door policies by our governments as colonisation simply because of the Introduction of Sharia Law.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Multiculturalism is a Failure
yaaarrrgg;1339585 wrote: I tend to agree. The majority culture is acting like it's completely beaten and against the ropes, having all it's options exhausted by the minority culture. How is this? Does the minority have supernatural powers?
The reality is that the majority culture is holding all the chips. It can do anything it wants to, and already has in alienating these people. How many Germans move into predominantly Turkish areas? Just by shear number, the Borg could overtake these areas in a matter of days.
You hit on something very important here! The bullies who have the numbers, the money, and the political power, continually try to portray themselves as the victims. When I was young, and KKK leader - David Duke was a frequent guest on the radio talk shows my father listened to, the Duke version of history was that white southerners were first persecuted by the Union forces, and then by the blacks during Reconstruction. To hear David Duke tell it, the Jim Crow laws, the public lynchings, and the chain gangs, and the rise of the Klan to be the dominant political force in the South, was just a reasonable response to their persecution.
To be honest, I hear a lot of David Duke's style in the clips I've seen of Glenn Beck's TV and radio shows! He runs the same scam! The religious majority and the wealthy are the oppressed in Beck World. And the oppressors are: blacks, non-white immigrants, homosexuals, the poor, Muslims, atheists, -- every small and/or disenfranchised group is somehow oppressing the white majority, according to right wing world.
The reality is that the majority culture is holding all the chips. It can do anything it wants to, and already has in alienating these people. How many Germans move into predominantly Turkish areas? Just by shear number, the Borg could overtake these areas in a matter of days.
You hit on something very important here! The bullies who have the numbers, the money, and the political power, continually try to portray themselves as the victims. When I was young, and KKK leader - David Duke was a frequent guest on the radio talk shows my father listened to, the Duke version of history was that white southerners were first persecuted by the Union forces, and then by the blacks during Reconstruction. To hear David Duke tell it, the Jim Crow laws, the public lynchings, and the chain gangs, and the rise of the Klan to be the dominant political force in the South, was just a reasonable response to their persecution.
To be honest, I hear a lot of David Duke's style in the clips I've seen of Glenn Beck's TV and radio shows! He runs the same scam! The religious majority and the wealthy are the oppressed in Beck World. And the oppressors are: blacks, non-white immigrants, homosexuals, the poor, Muslims, atheists, -- every small and/or disenfranchised group is somehow oppressing the white majority, according to right wing world.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
yaaarrrgg;1339585 wrote: The majority culture is acting like it's completely beaten and against the ropes, having all it's options exhausted by the minority culture. How is this? Does the minority have supernatural powers?
No the majority of people are just egotistical, unthoughtful, selfish, greedy little pukes who'd just as soon see others die so long as they don't have to personally witness it enough to feel like they could have helped other human beings that's all
No the majority of people are just egotistical, unthoughtful, selfish, greedy little pukes who'd just as soon see others die so long as they don't have to personally witness it enough to feel like they could have helped other human beings that's all
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Ahso!;1339608 wrote: Yeah, I recall reading this same (most likely invented) post from you in the past. Just try some Christian love next time. Mainly, the groups and individuals I hear complaining about all this stuff claim to be Christian.Oh pull your claws in, Ahso. You & Saint agree on virtually everything. I've had similar conversations in my high school. I've also found myself trying to convince some of these same kids that Catholics and Christians really do have the same God, and that Texas is not a country separate from the USA. ........... While typing this, it occurred to me that there's a definite pattern here: the kids feel isolated. Speech, culture, neighborhood - and they assume they're isolated in religion & Geography as well. I've got some mulling over to do. ...............
recovering conservative;1339577 wrote: The earlier immigrations had it a little easier because they looked like us, or were at least close enoughTruth. While individuals make exceptions every day, as a society we still color-code and keep ethnicities separate. Blacks have been in the US from the very beginning - freedmen, not slaves, but we have dropped any such references from our history books or give it passing mention as trivia - and still have not been assimilated.
Even now that we have a black man for president, we treat him as a unique oddity. During the campaign, those opposed to him were afraid to attack him as viciously as they might have a white candidate, for fear of being called racist. Many supported him only because he was black - Opie Taylor even produced a big video saying it's time we had a black president, without giving one reason deeper than skin tone. Most still fall all over ourselves trying to prove we're not racists. I don't remember any pre- Obama poll that separated personality from policy. People liked Bush or hated him, personality & policy lumped together ; People like Obama's policies or hate them, but Obama himself is overwhelmingly liked personally. Race is still far too valuable a political coin to throw away.
I don't think we really want complete assimilation, anyway. I like my stew chunky so I can distinguish the flavors and textures, not put through a blender & made homogenous. But we do need to have a national identity tying all the different ethnicities together, and we need to acknowledge those ethnicities as valid and valuable. The far right should be castigated for bigoted undertones, but the not-so-far left are guilty of the same charges, refusing to hold dark-skinned people to the same standard of behavior as they do the white, pink, and pale blue people.
recovering conservative;1339577 wrote: The earlier immigrations had it a little easier because they looked like us, or were at least close enoughTruth. While individuals make exceptions every day, as a society we still color-code and keep ethnicities separate. Blacks have been in the US from the very beginning - freedmen, not slaves, but we have dropped any such references from our history books or give it passing mention as trivia - and still have not been assimilated.
Even now that we have a black man for president, we treat him as a unique oddity. During the campaign, those opposed to him were afraid to attack him as viciously as they might have a white candidate, for fear of being called racist. Many supported him only because he was black - Opie Taylor even produced a big video saying it's time we had a black president, without giving one reason deeper than skin tone. Most still fall all over ourselves trying to prove we're not racists. I don't remember any pre- Obama poll that separated personality from policy. People liked Bush or hated him, personality & policy lumped together ; People like Obama's policies or hate them, but Obama himself is overwhelmingly liked personally. Race is still far too valuable a political coin to throw away.
I don't think we really want complete assimilation, anyway. I like my stew chunky so I can distinguish the flavors and textures, not put through a blender & made homogenous. But we do need to have a national identity tying all the different ethnicities together, and we need to acknowledge those ethnicities as valid and valuable. The far right should be castigated for bigoted undertones, but the not-so-far left are guilty of the same charges, refusing to hold dark-skinned people to the same standard of behavior as they do the white, pink, and pale blue people.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Well said, Brother.
A trip around this country will show how multiculturalism can actually work!!
We have German, Irish, French, Mexican, Brazilian, African, North African, South African, Thai, Viet, Chinese, Tibetan, Japanese, Russian, Indian, Afghani, Persian, Greek, Italian, Spanish all, mostly living together when the rabble-rousers are ignored, and people just get on with their lives, and get along.
The key, is we all believe in the rights of of our neighbors and believe that men are basically good.
Turn off the TV, Stop listening to those nitwits on CNN and Fox, and get to know your neighbors.
A trip around this country will show how multiculturalism can actually work!!
We have German, Irish, French, Mexican, Brazilian, African, North African, South African, Thai, Viet, Chinese, Tibetan, Japanese, Russian, Indian, Afghani, Persian, Greek, Italian, Spanish all, mostly living together when the rabble-rousers are ignored, and people just get on with their lives, and get along.
The key, is we all believe in the rights of of our neighbors and believe that men are basically good.
Turn off the TV, Stop listening to those nitwits on CNN and Fox, and get to know your neighbors.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Ahso!;1339597 wrote: I guess those places are not fit for German inhabitants. I hope Germany is not to its old tricks. Merkel is a bit frightening.
Perhaps, and also they'd have to worry about corrupting their pure aryan seed.
Merkel says that multiculturalism leads to genocide, and the solution is monoculturism. I think they already tried that, and it failed even more so.
Perhaps, and also they'd have to worry about corrupting their pure aryan seed.
Merkel says that multiculturalism leads to genocide, and the solution is monoculturism. I think they already tried that, and it failed even more so.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Accountable;1339671 wrote: Oh pull your claws in, Ahso. You & Saint agree on virtually everything.You've got your ahso!s and saint_s confused.Accountable;1339671 wrote:
The far right should be castigated for bigoted undertones, but the not-so-far left are guilty of the same charges, refusing to hold dark-skinned people to the same standard of behavior as they do the white, pink, and pale blue people.Thats because the not-so-far-left are actually the not-so-far-right incognito.
The far right should be castigated for bigoted undertones, but the not-so-far left are guilty of the same charges, refusing to hold dark-skinned people to the same standard of behavior as they do the white, pink, and pale blue people.Thats because the not-so-far-left are actually the not-so-far-right incognito.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Ahso!;1339608 wrote: Yeah, I recall reading this same (most likely invented) post from you in the past.
I've about had it with your playground bullying, Ahso. Everything with you is negative, cynical, sarcastic, and depressing. What's your problem? Life's not working out for you like you wanted? Lighten up, dude.
It wasn't invented, it was an actual conversation, word-for-word.
You need to apologize.
I've about had it with your playground bullying, Ahso. Everything with you is negative, cynical, sarcastic, and depressing. What's your problem? Life's not working out for you like you wanted? Lighten up, dude.
It wasn't invented, it was an actual conversation, word-for-word.
You need to apologize.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
I looked up the word "Mexican" and it has a couple meanings, for example:
a : a native or inhabitant of Mexico b : a person of Mexican descent c Southwest : a person of mixed Spanish and Indian descent
Otherwise, we couldn't have Mexican restaurants that sold Mexican food. They'd be American restaurants selling American food.
I don't think the boy did anything wrong by referring to himself as Mexican. It's a correct use of the term.
a : a native or inhabitant of Mexico b : a person of Mexican descent c Southwest : a person of mixed Spanish and Indian descent
Otherwise, we couldn't have Mexican restaurants that sold Mexican food. They'd be American restaurants selling American food.
I don't think the boy did anything wrong by referring to himself as Mexican. It's a correct use of the term.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
I guess the tone didn't come through but it was clear to me that the young man did not consider himself as an American citizen. And I think a lot of people feel like I do, if you want to come to our country and be American, fine. Be American, but please don't come here and expect us to cater to you.
I'd never dream of moving to France and forcing them to give me my driver's test in English or dual-labelproducts in english for me.
I'd never dream of moving to France and forcing them to give me my driver's test in English or dual-labelproducts in english for me.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Saint_;1339699 wrote: I've about had it with your playground bullying, Ahso. Everything with you is negative, cynical, sarcastic, and depressing. What's your problem? Life's not working out for you like you wanted? Lighten up, dude.
It wasn't invented, it was an actual conversation, word-for-word.
You need to apologize.What did you do record the conversation as you were having it? Playground bullying? Not quite, I'm just calling a spade a spade.
As I've said: you've obviously had this conversation more than once. Check the link below.
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... ost1306199
It wasn't invented, it was an actual conversation, word-for-word.
You need to apologize.What did you do record the conversation as you were having it? Playground bullying? Not quite, I'm just calling a spade a spade.
As I've said: you've obviously had this conversation more than once. Check the link below.
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... ost1306199
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Saint_;1339726 wrote: I guess the tone didn't come through but it was clear to me that the young man did not consider himself as an American citizen. And I think a lot of people feel like I do, if you want to come to our country and be American, fine. Be American, but please don't come here and expect us to cater to you.
I'd never dream of moving to France and forcing them to give me my driver's test in English or dual-labelproducts in english for me.
I totally agree with you there Saint. When In Rome etc etc.
I would not dream of having my clevage on show when In Turkey for example because It offends.
I am not against multi-culterism when any-one wishing to live In my country abides by British Law, learns some of our language to communicate and makes an effort to Integrate. However, what we have here Is Lilly Livered Governments pandering to ethnic minorities and allowing Sharia Law courts as one example.
If any Immigrant who wishes to settle In my country does not want to learn our language, abide by our law, and adjust to our way of life, then they can take full advantage of the other great British option.... The right to leave..
I'd never dream of moving to France and forcing them to give me my driver's test in English or dual-labelproducts in english for me.
I totally agree with you there Saint. When In Rome etc etc.
I would not dream of having my clevage on show when In Turkey for example because It offends.
I am not against multi-culterism when any-one wishing to live In my country abides by British Law, learns some of our language to communicate and makes an effort to Integrate. However, what we have here Is Lilly Livered Governments pandering to ethnic minorities and allowing Sharia Law courts as one example.
If any Immigrant who wishes to settle In my country does not want to learn our language, abide by our law, and adjust to our way of life, then they can take full advantage of the other great British option.... The right to leave..
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Ahso!;1339737 wrote: What did you do record the conversation as you were having it?
Yeah, it's called "a brain." You can use it to remember things.
Playground bullying? Not quite, I'm just calling a spade a spade.
Saying I "invented it" is a personal insult.
That is a direct violation of the Forumgarden Terms of Service.
Particularly:
You agree to NOT use the Service to: disrupt the normal flow of dialogue, or otherwise act in a manner that negatively affects other users' ability to engage in forum discussions or real time exchanges;
You agree to NOT use the Service to:engage in baiting, trolling, threatening, insulting, or generally disruptive behavior.
The next one of those goes to the top, I mean it.
As I've said: you've obviously had this conversation more than once. Check the link below.
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... ost1306199
You bet. I save all my relevant posts so that I can use them again if the need arises. Don't you? It's the intelligent thing to do, especially if you've been posting for over a decade as I have. That certainly doesn't imply that I "invented it."
Now apologize.
Yeah, it's called "a brain." You can use it to remember things.
Playground bullying? Not quite, I'm just calling a spade a spade.
Saying I "invented it" is a personal insult.
That is a direct violation of the Forumgarden Terms of Service.
Particularly:
You agree to NOT use the Service to: disrupt the normal flow of dialogue, or otherwise act in a manner that negatively affects other users' ability to engage in forum discussions or real time exchanges;
You agree to NOT use the Service to:engage in baiting, trolling, threatening, insulting, or generally disruptive behavior.
The next one of those goes to the top, I mean it.
As I've said: you've obviously had this conversation more than once. Check the link below.
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... ost1306199
You bet. I save all my relevant posts so that I can use them again if the need arises. Don't you? It's the intelligent thing to do, especially if you've been posting for over a decade as I have. That certainly doesn't imply that I "invented it."
Now apologize.
Multiculturalism is a Failure
oscar;1339739 wrote:
If any Immigrant who wishes to settle In my country does not want to learn our language, abide by our law, and adjust to our way of life, then they can take full advantage of the other great British option.... The right to leave..
ROFL! That is great! I love the way you put that, I may have to borrow that expression!:D
If any Immigrant who wishes to settle In my country does not want to learn our language, abide by our law, and adjust to our way of life, then they can take full advantage of the other great British option.... The right to leave..
ROFL! That is great! I love the way you put that, I may have to borrow that expression!:D
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Ta Ta - reread my post, I said it was most likely invented. I never said you invented it, its was you who laid claim to authorship. I only claimed you posted it more than once and it was "most likely invented".
There will be no apology forthcoming. In both posts you say you had the conversation just the other day. In which thread did you fabricate that part? Most likely the newest one, no?
There will be no apology forthcoming. In both posts you say you had the conversation just the other day. In which thread did you fabricate that part? Most likely the newest one, no?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Multiculturalism is a Failure
Accountable;1339851 wrote: The thing is - Saint_ and I are very much alike as people, but we disagree in almost every area mainly because of where he is in his life as opposed to where I am in mine. Neither is better or worse than the other......we're just trying to push each other along. It appears strange to some, but thats because we both rely on intuition a lot. We're both a bit more emotional (in a good way) than the average person perhaps.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple