I note that many papers have quoted President Obama in response to President Ahmadinejad’s speech at the United Nations on Thursday:It was offensive. It was hateful. And particularly for him to make the statement here in Manhattan, just a little north of Ground Zero, where families lost their loved ones. People of all faiths, all ethnicities who see this as the seminal tragedy of this generation. For him to make a statement like that was inexcusable.Very few papers have actually given President Ahmadinejad’s words to which such exception has been taken. Perhaps this thread could discuss them from an informed perspective. Here's the relevant extract (and a link to the full speech):First, the event of the 11 September 2001 which has affected the whole world for almost a decade.
All of a sudden, the news of the attack on the twin towers was broadcast using numerous footages of the incident.
Almost all governments and known figures strongly condemned this incident.
But then a propaganda machine came into full force; it was implied that the whole world was exposed to a huge danger, namely terrorism, and that the only way to save the world would be to deploy forces into Afghanistan.
Eventually Afghanistan, and shortly thereafter Iraq were occupied.
Please take note:
It was said that some three thousands people were killed on the 11 September for which we are all very saddened. Yet, up until now, in Afghanistan and Iraq hundreds of thousands of people have been killed, millions wounded and displaced and the conflict is still going on and expanding.
In identifying those responsible for the attack, there were three viewpoints.
That a very powerful and complex terrorist group, able to successfully cross all layers of the American intelligence and security, carried out the attack.
This is the main viewpoint advocated by American statesmen.
That some segments within the U.S. government orchestrated the attack to reverse the declining American economy and its grips on the Middle East in order also to save the Zionist regime.
The majority of the American people as well as other nations and politicians agree with this view.
It was carried out by a terrorist group but the American government supported and took advantage of the situation. Apparently, this viewpoint has fewer proponents.
The main evidence linking the incident was a few passports found in the huge volume of rubble and a video of an individual whose place of domicile was unknown but it was announced that he had been involved in oil deals with some American officials. It was also covered up and said that due to the explosion and fire no trace of the suicide attackers was found.
There remain, however, a few questions to be answered:
Would it not have been sensible that first a thorough investigation should have been conducted by independent groups to conclusively identify the elements involved in the attack and then map out a rational plan to take measures against them?
Assuming the viewpoint of the American government, is it rational to launch a classic war through widespread deployment of troops that led to the death of hundreds of thousands of people to counter a terrorist group?
Was it not possible to act the way Iran countered the Riggi terrorist group who killed and wounded 400 innocent people in Iran. In the Iranian operation no innocent person was hurt.
It is proposed that the United Nations set up an independent fact-finding group for the event of the 11 September so that in the future expressing views about it is not forbidden.
I wish to announce here that next year the Islamic Republic of Iran will host a conference to study terrorism and the means to confront it. I invite officials, scholars, thinkers, researchers and research institutes of all countries to attend this conference.
http://gadebate.un.org/Portals/1/statem ... 0IR_en.pdf
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
I really like Ahmadinejad's speeches, whether they can be taken at face value or not. He is very charismatic and he says a lot of important things.
It's too bad he started out dissing atheists and ended up with saying women should be soft and fluffy. All the middle bits were fantastic.
As far as the quoted bit in the OP goes, I see nothing surprising that hasn't been said over and over by many Americans themselves for many years. There was a lot implied and/or stated about the US and Israel that was critical but nothing hateful. It seems over-dramatic and rather like a guilt reaction to take such offense at what was said. If Ahmadinejad was baiting, then Obama just ate a big juicy worm.
It's too bad he started out dissing atheists and ended up with saying women should be soft and fluffy. All the middle bits were fantastic.
As far as the quoted bit in the OP goes, I see nothing surprising that hasn't been said over and over by many Americans themselves for many years. There was a lot implied and/or stated about the US and Israel that was critical but nothing hateful. It seems over-dramatic and rather like a guilt reaction to take such offense at what was said. If Ahmadinejad was baiting, then Obama just ate a big juicy worm.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
At least the NY Times realized they got it wrong:
In his speech, Mr. Ahmadinejad asserted various theories about the origin of the attacks, including the possibility that they had been planned by the United States. He did not say that the United States had planned the attacks.
Posted under "Corrections"
That some stormed out and Obama issued remarks based on fragments doesn't say much for their listening skills, which is pretty much what problem solving is all about.
In his speech, Mr. Ahmadinejad asserted various theories about the origin of the attacks, including the possibility that they had been planned by the United States. He did not say that the United States had planned the attacks.
Posted under "Corrections"
That some stormed out and Obama issued remarks based on fragments doesn't say much for their listening skills, which is pretty much what problem solving is all about.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
Mark Mardell noted the knee-jerk misreading too, though he feels it was deliberately aimed for in the original speech:Despite what the networks insist on broadcasting, he didn't actually say the US government was behind the murderous attacks, he said it was one of three theories and most Americans, and most people, believe it. I'm sure he was well aware most would not bother with this subtlety.
BBC - Mark Mardell's America: Iran v US: A war of words, not of bombs and guns
Mardell may feel he has reason for assuming of bad faith but it's by no means clear to me why he thinks it. I may be being unfair, what he says in his final sentence isn't necessarily a claim of bad faith, it could just be recognition of the way the mass media twists material. President Ahmadinejad might well have expected the media exaggeration but that doesn't make him responsible for it.
I actually think President Ahmadinejad was misinformed in saying "the majority of the American people as well as other nations and politicians agree with this view", my impression is that current polls put American public opinion between 35% and 40% on that question.
BBC - Mark Mardell's America: Iran v US: A war of words, not of bombs and guns
Mardell may feel he has reason for assuming of bad faith but it's by no means clear to me why he thinks it. I may be being unfair, what he says in his final sentence isn't necessarily a claim of bad faith, it could just be recognition of the way the mass media twists material. President Ahmadinejad might well have expected the media exaggeration but that doesn't make him responsible for it.
I actually think President Ahmadinejad was misinformed in saying "the majority of the American people as well as other nations and politicians agree with this view", my impression is that current polls put American public opinion between 35% and 40% on that question.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
Is that smaller than the percentage who think Bin Laden did it?
Blaming the speaker for not saying the words he was accused of saying is rather absurd. Saying he implied it is equally dim when he followed the assessment by calling for an outside inquiry. The inquiry suggestion makes it clear enough that he hadn't made definitive statements. I was a little confounded as to how what he said was hateful. It was a reasonable summary of what the American people have been demanding answers to since 9/11.
Blaming the speaker for not saying the words he was accused of saying is rather absurd. Saying he implied it is equally dim when he followed the assessment by calling for an outside inquiry. The inquiry suggestion makes it clear enough that he hadn't made definitive statements. I was a little confounded as to how what he said was hateful. It was a reasonable summary of what the American people have been demanding answers to since 9/11.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
Not many people really heard what he actually said, and it is a shame that everyone got hung up on the one item.
I agree with much of his opening remarks.
As for the 9/11 thing,
I find it interesting that more folks didn't object to the statement that "majority of Americans", and "other people" agree with the second theory.
While you see a lot of that notion on the web, I doubt seriously that a majority of Americans actually give it serious consideration.
I tend to lean more towards #3, myself.
He also completely ignored history with his comments on Palestinians. It was their Arab "Brothers" that put them in the refugee camps and ruined any chance at an easy solution.
As for the Qur'an burning, I don't recall that anyone actually did, in fact burn a Qur'an.
I also agree with the idea of nuclear energy, without the bombs.
And his closing statements are encouraging.
However, he is a politician, and that makes him someone not to be trusted.
I agree with much of his opening remarks.
As for the 9/11 thing,
I find it interesting that more folks didn't object to the statement that "majority of Americans", and "other people" agree with the second theory.
While you see a lot of that notion on the web, I doubt seriously that a majority of Americans actually give it serious consideration.
I tend to lean more towards #3, myself.
He also completely ignored history with his comments on Palestinians. It was their Arab "Brothers" that put them in the refugee camps and ruined any chance at an easy solution.
As for the Qur'an burning, I don't recall that anyone actually did, in fact burn a Qur'an.
I also agree with the idea of nuclear energy, without the bombs.
And his closing statements are encouraging.
However, he is a politician, and that makes him someone not to be trusted.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
LarsMac;1334763 wrote: I find it interesting that more folks didn't object to the statement that "majority of Americans", and "other people" agree with the second theory.
While you see a lot of that notion on the web, I doubt seriously that a majority of Americans actually give it serious consideration. September 11 attacks opinion polls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has many pointers to many polls, you might like to read the drift of opinion over the last few years.
He also completely ignored history with his comments on Palestinians. It was their Arab "Brothers" that put them in the refugee camps and ruined any chance at an easy solution. The Palestinians outside Palestine were at that point by definition refugees, where else would you expect them to find refuge other than in refugee camps?
As for the Qur'an burning, I don't recall that anyone actually did, in fact burn a Qur'an. BBC News - Men arrested in Gateshead over suspected Koran burning - you'll find Koran burning videos on Youtube from Norway, the UK, the US, Australia, it's getting to be commonplace.
However, he is a politician, and that makes him someone not to be trusted.That's a common reaction to Western politicians. I'm not sure it's applicable universally. I've followed what the chap's written over the years and I find him very straightforward. One might not like his policies but I see no reason to doubt his word.
While you see a lot of that notion on the web, I doubt seriously that a majority of Americans actually give it serious consideration. September 11 attacks opinion polls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has many pointers to many polls, you might like to read the drift of opinion over the last few years.
He also completely ignored history with his comments on Palestinians. It was their Arab "Brothers" that put them in the refugee camps and ruined any chance at an easy solution. The Palestinians outside Palestine were at that point by definition refugees, where else would you expect them to find refuge other than in refugee camps?
As for the Qur'an burning, I don't recall that anyone actually did, in fact burn a Qur'an. BBC News - Men arrested in Gateshead over suspected Koran burning - you'll find Koran burning videos on Youtube from Norway, the UK, the US, Australia, it's getting to be commonplace.
However, he is a politician, and that makes him someone not to be trusted.That's a common reaction to Western politicians. I'm not sure it's applicable universally. I've followed what the chap's written over the years and I find him very straightforward. One might not like his policies but I see no reason to doubt his word.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
spot;1334775 wrote: September 11 attacks opinion polls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has many pointers to many polls, you might like to read the drift of opinion over the last few years.
Saw that. Yes, opinion has drifted. So has opinion on the holocaust, and the Tri-lateral commission. Still, I see no majority.
In most countries it seems more people still believe Saddam was involved than the US Gummint.
spot;1334775 wrote:
The Palestinians outside Palestine were at that point by definition refugees, where else would you expect them to find refuge other than in refugee camps?
When the Israelis moved in, the Arab nations declared, almost unilaterally, that any Muslims who stayed in Israel would be declared infidels, and when the Arabs came in to remove the Israelis they would also remove ALL infidels.
A majority of the Palestinians packed up and left, but their Arab neighbors refused them admittance, forcing them into the camps.
spot;1334775 wrote:
BBC News - Men arrested in Gateshead over suspected Koran burning - you'll find Koran burning videos on Youtube from Norway, the UK, the US, Australia, it's getting to be commonplace.
I see one incident.
Not that I disagree with him on the subject. There is nothing useful to be gained by burning, or otherwise destroying anyone's holy books. It is the act of rabble-rousers and troublemakers.
spot;1334775 wrote:
That's a common reaction to Western politicians. I'm not sure it's applicable universally. I've followed what the chap's written over the years and I find him very straightforward. One might not like his policies but I see no reason to doubt his word.
Really? You think only the west has a hidden agenda?
He has such an honest face?
Why would he lie?
You believe that Iran only wants nuclear power for peaceful purposes?
Saw that. Yes, opinion has drifted. So has opinion on the holocaust, and the Tri-lateral commission. Still, I see no majority.
In most countries it seems more people still believe Saddam was involved than the US Gummint.
spot;1334775 wrote:
The Palestinians outside Palestine were at that point by definition refugees, where else would you expect them to find refuge other than in refugee camps?
When the Israelis moved in, the Arab nations declared, almost unilaterally, that any Muslims who stayed in Israel would be declared infidels, and when the Arabs came in to remove the Israelis they would also remove ALL infidels.
A majority of the Palestinians packed up and left, but their Arab neighbors refused them admittance, forcing them into the camps.
spot;1334775 wrote:
BBC News - Men arrested in Gateshead over suspected Koran burning - you'll find Koran burning videos on Youtube from Norway, the UK, the US, Australia, it's getting to be commonplace.
I see one incident.
Not that I disagree with him on the subject. There is nothing useful to be gained by burning, or otherwise destroying anyone's holy books. It is the act of rabble-rousers and troublemakers.
spot;1334775 wrote:
That's a common reaction to Western politicians. I'm not sure it's applicable universally. I've followed what the chap's written over the years and I find him very straightforward. One might not like his policies but I see no reason to doubt his word.
Really? You think only the west has a hidden agenda?
He has such an honest face?
Why would he lie?
You believe that Iran only wants nuclear power for peaceful purposes?
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
LarsMac;1334799 wrote: When the Israelis moved in, the Arab nations declared, almost unilaterally, that any Muslims who stayed in Israel would be declared infidels, and when the Arabs came in to remove the Israelis they would also remove ALL infidels.If you can perhaps point me to some reference brief enough to read which gives that background I'd be delighted to read it, I was unaware of those details. I've no idea whether it's true but I find it difficult to reconcile with what I've read.
A majority of the Palestinians packed up and left, but their Arab neighbors refused them admittance, forcing them into the camps. I'm not sure where you think the refugee camps were located, then. I thought they were in the territories of the Arab neighbors.
You believe that Iran only wants nuclear power for peaceful purposes?I'm quite sure Iran wants nuclear power for peaceful purposes. Whether they additionally have a desire to develop a nuclear capability is unclear but would be entirely reasonable given the Israeli stockpile of nuclear arms in the Middle Eastern theater. Nuclear weapons have absolutely no offensive capability since their use would guarantee a nuclear response. They do, on the other hand, provide a guarantee against an overwhelming military attack from any foreign nation.
I'd be delighted if the world suddenly discovered Iran was currently equipped with a hundred deliverable warheads, all this sabre-rattling by the US and Israeli governments would evaporate overnight. I have no fear whatever that Iran either would or even could employ them unless the country's infrastructure was in the process of being destroyed.
A majority of the Palestinians packed up and left, but their Arab neighbors refused them admittance, forcing them into the camps. I'm not sure where you think the refugee camps were located, then. I thought they were in the territories of the Arab neighbors.
You believe that Iran only wants nuclear power for peaceful purposes?I'm quite sure Iran wants nuclear power for peaceful purposes. Whether they additionally have a desire to develop a nuclear capability is unclear but would be entirely reasonable given the Israeli stockpile of nuclear arms in the Middle Eastern theater. Nuclear weapons have absolutely no offensive capability since their use would guarantee a nuclear response. They do, on the other hand, provide a guarantee against an overwhelming military attack from any foreign nation.
I'd be delighted if the world suddenly discovered Iran was currently equipped with a hundred deliverable warheads, all this sabre-rattling by the US and Israeli governments would evaporate overnight. I have no fear whatever that Iran either would or even could employ them unless the country's infrastructure was in the process of being destroyed.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
I heard parts of the speech, I admire the Iranian people for having the cajones to keep their heads in this situation and not fall apart as a nation even though some have tried to do this. Like Irans government or not they keep the peace and save lives doing it.
I must say that all things considered 9/11 has a funny smell to it in general. Just look at the situation then and now and ask why we are still there in A-stan and Iraq and more importantly, if we will ever truely leave. We are expanding our influence into central asia. We are doing this for a reason and we all know what that is.
It seems too convenient to me, too opportunistic. The great game in central asia continues and I suspect will for some time to come.
I must say that all things considered 9/11 has a funny smell to it in general. Just look at the situation then and now and ask why we are still there in A-stan and Iraq and more importantly, if we will ever truely leave. We are expanding our influence into central asia. We are doing this for a reason and we all know what that is.
It seems too convenient to me, too opportunistic. The great game in central asia continues and I suspect will for some time to come.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
I'm wondering if the discussion on other Arab nations "forcing" Palestinians to do anything is a misunderstanding of their refusal to grant citizenship to refugees and their insistence that the Palestinians not accept money in lieu of their right of return. I'm pretty sure the wikipedia article on Palestinian right of return has the relevant information. Fleeing because of imminent war makes them smart, not afraid of being called infidels. I think history will show that the refugees were displaced by those currently living on the land, not those who don't live on it.
I'd be rather keen on talking about Ahmadinejad's summary of the evolution of society to our current state.
I'd be rather keen on talking about Ahmadinejad's summary of the evolution of society to our current state.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
Aha!! Found it.
In the words of Erskine Childers[1]: ‘Israel claims that the Arabs left because they were ordered to, and deliberately incited into panic, by their own leaders who wanted the field cleared for the 1948 war’, while ‘The Arabs charge that their people were evicted at bayonet-point and by panic deliberately incited by the Zionists.’
Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus
That was solely the Israeli story and it was their "initial" story of which many other suggested possibilities exist and all of which are greatly under dispute. I, personally, had never heard this version given any weight before and I've read quite a bit about the history of the conflict.
In the words of Erskine Childers[1]: ‘Israel claims that the Arabs left because they were ordered to, and deliberately incited into panic, by their own leaders who wanted the field cleared for the 1948 war’, while ‘The Arabs charge that their people were evicted at bayonet-point and by panic deliberately incited by the Zionists.’
Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus
That was solely the Israeli story and it was their "initial" story of which many other suggested possibilities exist and all of which are greatly under dispute. I, personally, had never heard this version given any weight before and I've read quite a bit about the history of the conflict.
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
koan;1334862 wrote:
I'd be rather keen on talking about Ahmadinejad's summary of the evolution of society to our current state.
I thought it an excellent summary.
Particularly:
"Man's disconnection from Heaven detached him from his true self.
Man with his potentials for understanding the secrets of the universe, his instinct
for seeking truth, his aspirations for justice and perfection, his quest for beauty and
purity and his capacity to represent God on earth was reduced to a creature limited to
the materialistic world with a mission to maximize individualistic pleasures. Human
instinct, then, replaced true human nature."
I'd be rather keen on talking about Ahmadinejad's summary of the evolution of society to our current state.
I thought it an excellent summary.
Particularly:
"Man's disconnection from Heaven detached him from his true self.
Man with his potentials for understanding the secrets of the universe, his instinct
for seeking truth, his aspirations for justice and perfection, his quest for beauty and
purity and his capacity to represent God on earth was reduced to a creature limited to
the materialistic world with a mission to maximize individualistic pleasures. Human
instinct, then, replaced true human nature."
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
President Obama's reaction to the UN speech this week
LarsMac;1334873 wrote: I thought it an excellent summary.
Particularly:
I think there is some truth to that but sense a danger in condemning atheism. I'm annoyed equally by fundamentalist talk from any perspective but atheism, when it gives comfort, is just as valuable imo as any other religious point of view.
I liked:
Human beings and nations were considered rivals and the happiness of an individual or a nation was defined in collision with, and elimination or suppression of others. Constructive evolutionary cooperation was replaced with a destructive struggle for survival.
Particularly:
I think there is some truth to that but sense a danger in condemning atheism. I'm annoyed equally by fundamentalist talk from any perspective but atheism, when it gives comfort, is just as valuable imo as any other religious point of view.
I liked:
Human beings and nations were considered rivals and the happiness of an individual or a nation was defined in collision with, and elimination or suppression of others. Constructive evolutionary cooperation was replaced with a destructive struggle for survival.