Fatal Cornwall blaze blamed on banger yobs

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Bill Sikes
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Fatal Cornwall blaze blamed on banger yobs

Post by Bill Sikes »

flopstock;1314365 wrote: This is the same logic applied to gun ownership here. Guns don't kill, people do. thinking:


Aha, yes yes yes. However, in some ways the wide ownership of guns leads to a general increase in the likelihood of nutters, accidents, and stupid behaviour resulting in "accidental" deaths. Tell me though, "there", what kills most people, and what might the proportions be:

a) Fireworks.

b) Guns.

c) Alcohol.

d) Ve-hicles.

Hmm?

I assume that you've got laws to punish people recklessly using any of those things when death results?
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Post by G#Gill »

Bill Sikes;1314345 wrote: Pish. What a dim and short-sighted viewpoint. There're probably in the region of 10,000 alcohol-related deaths per annum in the UK (so ban that), compared to how many for fireworks... 1? 3? Get a grip on reality.


Mr. Sikes, it is obvious to me that you have not had the experience of a firework attack on you by rampaging yobs!!! I don't think you could have had experience, either, of night after night of explosions which have severely upset your dog (or cat), throughout the year, not just around November 5th. I don't think you could have seen the dreadful injuries caused to a horse by a drunken yob with rockets and bangers in his possession - not only severe burns, but severe injuries caused to the terrified horse trying to escape the field through a very tough fence! I don't think you could have experienced a pitched battle between gangs of youths firing rockets at each other, some rockets hitting innocent passers by! As somebody said earlier in this thread - the police prioritise and firework incidents are not top of the list. There are not enough officers to deal with every report that comes in to them, so there are many incidents that go unanswered. The police know that the yobs can soon nip away and easily avoid being caught, so they more often than not don't turn out to a reported firework incident.

And yes, I would dearly love alcohol to be banned, but it never will. It is supposed to be a very sociable event, having a drink with friends. However, over the years it has become probably the most anti-social activity ever! Now I suppose Mr. spot will bring up facts and statistics to blow my observation out of the water!

It has got progressively worse since the 24 hour drinking was brought in, and the increase of 'binge' drinking that goes from bad to worse. The every weekend brawls, knifings, and the gratuitous beating of innocent people, have made most city and town centres 'no-go' areas, and the police are so under-manned that I suspect the drunken youths have control of these centres on weekend nights.

I do enjoy an alcoholic drink, but in moderation. If it was banned, I would not miss it, myself.

Sorry, Kaz, wandering off topic, but I felt I had to answer Mr. Sikes.
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Peter Lake
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Fatal Cornwall blaze blamed on banger yobs

Post by Peter Lake »

Bill Sikes;1314363 wrote: Aha - attagi^H^Hboy. Oh! You've gone all lower case, and you're normally so careful!



I can't do that, she's in my killfile.
I think you'll find i've always written in lower case and i think you'll also find that as my wife told me last night, you were on her ignore list, so can you stop baiting or i'll have no choice but to join the few here who report any post that offends their feelings? Or maybe you should pop over to 24 forums and make your accusation to my wife instead of taking decent threads off topic as they seem in short supply here of late.
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Post by Peter Lake »

G#Gill;1314386 wrote: Mr. Sikes, it is obvious to me that you have not had the experience of a firework attack on you by rampaging yobs!!! I don't think you could have had experience, either, of night after night of explosions which have severely upset your dog (or cat), throughout the year, not just around November 5th. I don't think you could have seen the dreadful injuries caused to a horse by a drunken yob with rockets and bangers in his possession - not only severe burns, but severe injuries caused to the terrified horse trying to escape the field through a very tough fence! I don't think you could have experienced a pitched battle between gangs of youths firing rockets at each other, some rockets hitting innocent passers by! As somebody said earlier in this thread - the police prioritise and firework incidents are not top of the list. There are not enough officers to deal with every report that comes in to them, so there are many incidents that go unanswered. The police know that the yobs can soon nip away and easily avoid being caught, so they more often than not don't turn out to a reported firework incident.

And yes, I would dearly love alcohol to be banned, but it never will. It is supposed to be a very sociable event, having a drink with friends. However, over the years it has become probably the most anti-social activity ever! Now I suppose Mr. spot will bring up facts and statistics to blow my observation out of the water!

It has got progressively worse since the 24 hour drinking was brought in, and the increase of 'binge' drinking that goes from bad to worse. The every weekend brawls, knifings, and the gratuitous beating of innocent people, have made most city and town centres 'no-go' areas, and the police are so under-manned that I suspect the drunken youths have control of these centres on weekend nights.

I do enjoy an alcoholic drink, but in moderation. If it was banned, I would not miss it, myself.

Sorry, Kaz, wandering off topic, but I felt I had to answer Mr. Sikes. I would say Gill that here, we will have fireworks at least once a week. We've always been rather fortunate that our three dogs take no notice of them at all but we do know people who suffer with their pets each time. I also know of attacks on pets and farm animals from morons with fireworks which leads me to believe that the penalty for the abuse must be harsher.

You mention the binge drinking culture and again i'm in agreement. We were plagued with drunken teenagers most nights in the village and the weekends were the worst turning a certain area into a no go zone for timid residents. Although local police were stretched, they carried out an anti social behaviour operation every weekend, stopping, searching and asking for identification. This didn't really stop the problem until the time came when the only off licence on that parade of shops was shut down very recently. Julie and i both saw staff selling school children drink and being the old grumps we are, made official complaints to the police. They were warned and then suddenly, one day they were shut for good. Since then, a teenager let alone a drunken one on our war memorial or hanging around that parade of shops is a rare sight. No doubt they have found another shop with staff willing to sell to them but since they've closed, the litter is gone, the anti social behaviour is gone, the minor criminal damage is gone, the noise is gone late at night and there's no gangs hanging around. You can't ban alcohol but i would like to see outlets caught selling to the under age shut down as this one was.

Perhaps Mr Sykes lives in a hobbit hole in a green and rural pasture where the age limit is over sixty?
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Fatal Cornwall blaze blamed on banger yobs

Post by flopstock »

Bill Sikes;1314377 wrote: Aha, yes yes yes. However, in some ways the wide ownership of guns leads to a general increase in the likelihood of nutters, accidents, and stupid behaviour resulting in "accidental" deaths. Tell me though, "there", what kills most people, and what might the proportions be:



a) Fireworks.

b) Guns.

c) Alcohol.

d) Ve-hicles.



Hmm?



I assume that you've got laws to punish people recklessly using any of those things when death results?


My opinion only here - alcohol is what causes a lot of a,b, and d deaths. Of course that is based solely on news and grief stories and not on any facts or stats.



Prohibition didn't work so well the last time we tried it... then again, maybe it did.. do we have stats from that time period to support the notion of giving it another go?



But isn't cancer one of the main causes of death in America lately? That or heart disease? Definitely outlaw smoking.:D
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Post by Bill Sikes »

Peter Lake;1314524 wrote: stop baiting or i'll have no choice but to join the few here who report any post that offends their feelings?


Oh dear, threats of gagging, how very unpleasant. The first refuge of a scoundrel?
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Post by kazalala »

flopstock;1314365 wrote: This is the same logic applied to gun ownership here. Guns don't kill, people do.:thinking:


yes , true,, but which is easier to kill someone with,,, a gun? or a baguette?:-3 yes i knwo thats ridiculous but seriously , i wonder in the case of the recent tragedy in Cumbria how many people would have been killled if he had a knife or a big stick instead of a gun,, or if indeed he had used maybe his car as a weapon. He was hell bent on carnage so he would have used something if he didnt have guns, but would he have been able to kill as many? and in this case i also agree with Spot that the police were lacking there.

Out of interest i would like to state that i do not support a full ban on fireworks, but merely a restriction, so that people can still enjoy them, but at organised events only. I also agree that in comparison with guns, alchohol, etc., yes fireworks come lower on the list, but that does not change my opinion on them.




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Post by Bill Sikes »

flopstock;1314529 wrote: My opinion only here - alcohol is what causes a lot of (firework, gun, vehicle) deaths.

(snip)

But isn't cancer one of the main causes of death in America lately? That or heart disease? Definitely outlaw smoking. :D


The point in question is about banning something that happens infrequently and causes very few deaths indeed, though. You are right in that there are many other things which dshould be a far higher priority.
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Bill Sikes;1314537 wrote: The point in question is about banning something that happens infrequently and causes very few deaths indeed, though. You are right in that there are many other things which dshould be a far higher priority.




We have different grades of fireworks here. Illinois has more stringent laws then Wisconsin. So, at the end of June there are a lot of day trips north. Family men, neighbors, teens, etc... Come fourth of July, Cities hold sponsored events and everyone tries to compete with the neighbors display afterward.



Folks get hurt every year, for as far back as I can remember.... regardless of the restrictions we try to place on them. The vast majority of users, however - just have firework stories to tell.:thinking:
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Post by spot »

flopstock;1314539 wrote:

Folks get hurt every year, for as far back as I can remember.... regardless of the restrictions we try to place on them. The vast majority of users, however - just have firework stories to tell.:thinking:


For comparison, if you do manage to find a US figure, deaths from the use and abuse of fireworks in the United Kingdom have averaged less than one a year for as long as records exist. Lightning kills more people.

Your point on prohibition is well made. The moment anything at all is made illegal for general sale the supply is taken over by criminals prepared to supply what retailers no longer can. Demand overall may be lower but every purchaser is an abuser rather than a mere user. It makes no difference whether you're discussing alcohol, heroin, pornography or fireworks.
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Post by YZGI »

spot;1314543 wrote: For comparison, if you do manage to find a US figure, deaths from the use and abuse of fireworks in the United Kingdom have averaged less than one a year for as long as records exist. Lightning kills more people.



Your point on prohibition is well made. The moment anything at all is made illegal for general sale the supply is taken over by criminals prepared to supply what retailers no longer can. Demand overall may be lower but every purchaser is an abuser rather than a mere user. It makes no difference whether you're discussing alcohol, heroin, pornography or fireworks.
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YZGI;1314544 wrote: Don't forget guns.




what do you suppose the percentage of accidental gun death to guns in circulation is in the us every year?:thinking:
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Post by Peter Lake »

Bill Sikes;1314531 wrote: Oh dear, threats of gagging, how very unpleasant. The first refuge of a scoundrel?
Not at all Bill, i'm just getting tired of you as i'm sure others are. I notice you haven't backed up your statement that my wife often posted that she was closing her account? Then, i suspect you were merely talking bull again. Now if you'll excuse me, i've put you on ignore here on so people who want to actually discuss a topic can do so without this rubbish.
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Post by Bill Sikes »

Peter Lake;1314564 wrote: (snip)


I thought I was correct, one-who-is-two. I am. Never mind. And you have the gall to get at me, after your filthy threat.
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Post by YZGI »

flopstock;1314554 wrote: what do you suppose the percentage of accidental gun death to guns in circulation is in the us every year?:thinking:
Don't know, I looked for a bit then got busy.
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Post by spot »

Peter Lake;1314564 wrote: Not at all Bill, i'm just getting tired of you as i'm sure others are.
It isn't merely the tone of voice which persuades people the Peter Lake account is being abused by Oscar, it's the continual gleeful site disruption. You remember Cromwell's speech dismissing the - was it the Rump Parliament? I think it was. Enough is enough.
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Post by Mustang »

flopstock;1314554 wrote: what do you suppose the percentage of accidental gun death to guns in circulation is in the us every year?:thinking:


What I could find is about 1.2%.

29,000 deaths or 1.2% of the total. (Suicide: 16,586; Homicide: 10,801; Accidents: 776; Legal intervention: 270; Unknown: 230)

List of preventable causes of death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Post by spot »

YZGI;1314577 wrote: Don't know, I looked for a bit then got busy.


The total gun death figure for the USA averages over 30,000 a year if I remember right, of which (from memory) around 700 are classed as lawful killings. How many of the remainder are accidental I've no idea, and the total number of firearms in private hands is (I assume) uncountable. I'd have thought the number of deaths from fireworks each year is less than ten.



eta: I just saw Mustang's figures. I think his 270 is light, if he likes we could compare sources on that.
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Mustang;1314584 wrote: What I could find is about 1.2%. (snip) Accidents: 776


I wonder about the "accidental" figure - does that include, perhaps, deaths of people accidentally shot by police ("crossfire", etc.) as well as those deaths occuring during "hunting" where someone is shot by someone else - or is it just the total of people who shoot themselves by mistake?
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Post by flopstock »

Should this perhaps be a separate discussion? I don't want to derail a conversation on fireworks safety when folks clearly feel strongly one way or the other on the issue.



it was just one of those things that popped in my head..:o
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flopstock;1314610 wrote: Should this perhaps be a separate discussion?


Guns? You are right, I think - however, these sorts of issues are germane - why take extreme action on something that causes few deaths, when such action would be more productive applied elsewhere?
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Post by spot »

flopstock;1314610 wrote: Should this perhaps be a separate discussion? I don't want to derail a conversation on fireworks safety when folks clearly feel strongly one way or the other on the issue.



it was just one of those things that popped in my head..:o


It's relevant because it puts the firework problem into perspective.
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Post by G#Gill »

I suggest you start another thread Mr. Spot, concerning firearms?

I'll carry on and re-iterate that in my opinion, fireworks for general, over-the-counter sale to the public, should be banned. Fireworks should be permitted on licence to organised displays only. I feel this is the only course that can be taken, because so many people are now abusing the use of fireworks and causing unnecessary suffering to both innocent humans and animals, at all times of the year.
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G#Gill;1314617 wrote: I'll carry on and re-iterate that in my opinion, fireworks for general, over-the-counter sale to the public, should be banned. (snip) I feel this is the only course that can be taken, because so many people are now abusing the use of fireworks and causing unnecessary suffering to both innocent humans and animals, at all times of the year.


So it's no longer because they cause deaths, but now merely because they cause "unnecessary suffering"?

What of this "at all times of the year"? I must say that I only see them around Nov. 5th., and (lfewer) at Diwali.

What of the legitimate use that people make of them?

What of the fact that use is governed by existant law?
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;1314617 wrote: I suggest you start another thread Mr. Spot, concerning firearms?

I'll carry on and re-iterate that in my opinion, fireworks for general, over-the-counter sale to the public, should be banned. Fireworks should be permitted on licence to organised displays only. I feel this is the only course that can be taken, because so many people are now abusing the use of fireworks and causing unnecessary suffering to both innocent humans and animals, at all times of the year.


I've been avoiding firearms as much as possible throughout the thread.

Repeating your position each time you post doesn't actually take the discussion any further. Did you bother to read last October's Firework debate in the Commons? It covered all the aspects we've brought up, put them far better than we've managed and explained why the ban on general sale to adults simply isn't going to happen. You might like, for example, to respond to my comments on prohibition invariably leading to criminal supply, it's a germane point. As a general rule, every crime is a consequence of legislation. The more you legislate against, the more you transform citizens into criminals.

The police aren't inadequately funded or understaffed, they're a deliberate block on detecting and prosecuting criminality. This country has a policy of refusing to prosecute any criminal case unless it's brought by the Crown Prosecution Service, and the CPS will only handle cases brought to it by the police. Before that policy was implemented, ordinary citizens like you or me could bring criminal cases before the courts. The police, in my opinion, are the problem when it comes to preventing crime and they should simply be abolished. Anyone at all should be able to bring criminal prosecutions before the courts, and the courts should be enabled to award public funds to reward successful prosecutions. Just think, you could be out there preventing firework abuse yourself instead of sitting back complaining about police understaffing. They're a monopoly, and monopolies are notoriously inefficient because they've no competition to sharpen themselves on. The fact that it's inherently bastard powermongers who are attracted into the job is neither here nor there but it doesn't help.
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Yes, I did read the parliamentary discussion, and watched the video. Very interesting and thank you for putting in the link. You do go to a lot of trouble to present such items for our enlightenment, and I'm sure many will be grateful.

The trouble with trying to police these firework yobs ourselves is obviously one of risk to one's own safety! Can you imagine the reaction from a rocket armed yob, to being approached by a resident asking him to refrain from shooting at peoples' windows? You see that would create a further crime, probably of a more serious nature would it not? Who, in their right mind, would even think to do such a thing ?

I'm afraid that if the police don't treat this anti-social behaviour with more severity, and there seems to be no hope of banning fireworks to the general public (over the counter), then the matter will only get far worse! I'm just glad I shall be moving to a more rural area next year, hopefully. At least where we propose to move to, the people there seem far more civilised, less selfish, and more considerate than where we are at the moment.
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;1314640 wrote: The trouble with trying to police these firework yobs ourselves is obviously one of risk to one's own safety! Can you imagine the reaction from a rocket armed yob, to being approached by a resident asking him to refrain from shooting at peoples' windows? You see that would create a further crime, probably of a more serious nature would it not? Who, in their right mind, would even think to do such a thing ?




I wouldn't dream of suggesting you approach anyone in the street for any purpose, whether they're armed with a firework or not. I do think that if there were adequate automated surveillance of the streets and you yourself, together with the rest of us, were enabled to bring a criminal prosecution on the basis of that surveillance, and assuming it was accessible to the public at large, there would be far more antisocial acts prosecuted. I see no reason why the person bringing the prosecution should be identifiable to the criminal.
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Just a small example of the sort of thing people have to put up with:-

About three years ago, we were asleep in bed when we were jolted awake by a crashing noise against our bedroom window (which was slightly ajar for ventilation). It had been a warmish night for the time of year (October).

I leapt out of bed, and looking out of the window, saw two yobs legging it away down the road. My husband went downstairs to check outside. The front door was below our bedroom window, and my husband found a drink can on the pathway about 10 feet from the front door. He picked it up, shined his torch into the can, as it smelt as if something had been burnt inside it and saw a 'banger' firework which had been lit but had 'gone out'. There was no sign of anybody about, and everywhere was quiet.

We immediately checked our CCTV video, and saw exactly what they had done. They were on the pavement at our gate, one of them walked down our front pathway with a can in one hand, he used his lit cigarette to light something at the top of the can and as something started to flare up it was let to drop inside the can and the can was thrown at our partially open window. We could see this yob's face in the light from our security lamp over our front door, but we did not recognise him. He immediately turned tail and ran as fast as he could away from our house and down the road, with his mate. I'm not sure if he realised that the firework had gone out.

Had his throw been more accurate, it would have gone through the wide-enough gap left by our slightly open window, landed on our bed and exploded! The thought of what could have happened then made my blood run cold. Obviously we rang the police. We had to wait nearly an hour before anybody turned up. They said it would be a waste of time doing a search of the area for those two yobs as they would be long gone. We gave them the drinks can with the banger still inside it, and they took our video tape. They gave us a receipt and a crime number, then left. The yobs were never found, so the case did not proceed. We got our tape back with the comment that it was not good enough to use as evidence anyway. Funny thing, that, because I would have recognised that yob from the CCTV video footage, had I seen him later! We realised that we were just another statistic. Another unsolved crime. We also realised that we had been very lucky, that those idiots had not been more accurate!

I suppose if the action of the yobs had succeeded, and there had been a fire, and we had been injured or worse, the police may have made a bigger effort and might well have identified the face on that video film. So many 'mays' and 'might haves'. It just seemed to us that the police could not be bothered - nobody was hurt, and no damage had been done. But the nasty intent had been there! Consequently, like so many other incidents, it gave us so much confidence in our police force! :-5

That incident is just one of many, many that occur every year in the run up to 5th November, and the weeks afterwards. And some people say that they are just pranks! These yobs seem incapable of realising that they are messing with explosives!
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Post by spot »

So why would you wish not to have been able to bring a prosecution yourself, instead of being forced to channel your complaint through the police? As you demonstrate, they're a lazy incompetent inept bunch. More funding or increased numbers is never going to change that.

Why would you wish not to have available for full public access the sort of surveillance equipment which would have automatically named the people responsible?
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Post by G#Gill »

spot;1314663 wrote: So why would you wish not to have been able to bring a prosecution yourself, instead of being forced to channel your complaint through the police? As you demonstrate, they're a lazy incompetent inept bunch. More funding or increased numbers is never going to change that.

Why would you wish not to have available for full public access the sort of surveillance equipment which would have automatically named the people responsible?


With the best will in the world, spot, I doubt very much that a prosecution of that sort by a member of the public would guarantee the anonymity of the 'prosecutor'. Besides, private prosecutions are possible, at a high financial cost of course. I would also doubt that, because that facility is available anyway to the general public, the authorities would enable a 'free' prosecution facility. Also such surveillance equipment is available for use, but in extreme circumstances as it is expensive equipment and not many in each police area.

Incidentally, when we were experiencing very regular incidents of yob gangs gathering in our immediate area, the police were going to install one of these high definition surveillance cameras on one of the house walls, up fairly high so a good wide angle of vision would be obtained. However, they did not have one available as they were all in use elsewhere.

A combination of more residents installing CCTV cameras, and the fact that my husband, son and myself are prepared to go out onto the road with our German Shepherd dog, when groups of youths start to gather, has deterred these gangs and they have gone elsewhere (I am touching wood as I say this !). :thinking:
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Fatal Cornwall blaze blamed on banger yobs

Post by spot »

G#Gill;1314669 wrote: Besides, private prosecutions are possible, at a high financial cost of course.They're so infrequently allowed by the Crown Prosecution Service that it's a practical impossibility. I'd guess less than one such prosecution happens in any year though I'd be very interested to see a quoted figure. I can't find one.

Prosecuting discusses the current state of the law:There has always been a right to bring private prosecutions for breaches of the criminal law – indeed before 1879 there was no public prosecutor so it was the only way that anyone came before the criminal courts – it is a rarely-used procedure.
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Bill Sikes
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Fatal Cornwall blaze blamed on banger yobs

Post by Bill Sikes »

G#Gill;1314640 wrote: Can you imagine the reaction from a rocket armed yob, to being approached by a resident asking him to refrain from shooting at peoples' windows? You see that would create a further crime, probably of a more serious nature would it not? Who, in their right mind, would even think to do such a thing ?


I would. It's necessary, and the effect is almost certainly going to be different from the one you anticipate. To shirk our responsibilities, turn a blind eye, and depend on the police to do all policing leads to problems in society. We're experiencing these problems now.
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Fatal Cornwall blaze blamed on banger yobs

Post by G#Gill »

Bill Sikes;1314741 wrote: I would. It's necessary, and the effect is almost certainly going to be different from the one you anticipate. To shirk our responsibilities, turn a blind eye, and depend on the police to do all policing leads to problems in society. We're experiencing these problems now.


Yes you may, because you're a bloke!



It's also body language, when you approach somebody in confidence it creates a doubt in their minds. I have been accused of being a formidable person, but I am still a female and I have white hair.

It has been known for me to walk out determinedly towards youths, and I suppose my body language and facial expression created a moment's uncertainty in my adversaries - they legged it, shouting obscenities as they ran away! There were four of them ! :yh_rotfl But I did prevent those yobs causing any damage to my son's 3 wheeler Reliant Rialto (on that occasion).

However, I was taken to task by my son later after he returned home, when he found out what I had done. I had to agree that it was a risky thing that I did - they could have had knives or screwdrivers! Since that occasion, I have been banned from going out by myself to challenge any yobs, in day time or night time. I can see the point of that, being female with white hair - an easy target maybe.

But I did not shirk my responsibilities or turn a blind eye. Not like most of the other residents on my road. They are too frightened to come out! What we have tried to say to them is, if we all go out to these yobs en masse each time there is a gang of them, they'll just up and run off! It would put them off returning to our road in the future, because they would know that all the residents would come out to them. Unfortunately my little family unit has had to deal with this problem on our own. But we have a German Shepherd and we have CCTV, and the yobs know this now, and they also know that we will go out to them - they stay away.
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Bill Sikes
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Fatal Cornwall blaze blamed on banger yobs

Post by Bill Sikes »

G#Gill;1314830 wrote: I had to agree that it was a risky thing that I did - they could have had knives or screwdrivers!


Escalation is something not in their interests - they know it. Should you be assaulted, they'd be in big trouble - there's a line they come up against, and will hardly ever cross. The less that they're pulled up, the worse things become and the more likely that the line *will* be crossed. This is the reason that everyone should take an active part in maintaining their society.



G#Gill;1314830 wrote: we have a German Shepherd and we have CCTV, and the yobs know this now, and they also know that we will go out to them - they stay away.


Good. Well done! You are doing the right thing.
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Bill Sikes
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Fatal Cornwall blaze blamed on banger yobs

Post by Bill Sikes »

G#Gill;1314830 wrote: Yes you may, because you're a bloke!


To add to that, it's possibly more dangerous for "blokes", especially ones who might be percieved as a physical threat. There's a *challenge*, you see, which may not be present in other circumstances.

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