AussiePam;1303264 wrote: So
Religion is a response to God and
Atheism is a response to that response
Some kids respond to the beach by building a sandcastle. Another kid might prefer to spend his time kicking down the castle. Both are responding to the sand, but one lot more directly.
But another kid may respond by just appreciating the sand. The kid may stand and admire the sandcastle for a while before continuing along the beach enjoying the sand beneath his/her feet.
Is atheism a form of religion?
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303430 wrote: I probably shouldn't bother, but I will out of respect.
Its dialogue, thats what people do. We exchange views and challenge one another regarding those views. We tell stories to each other and when we become too carried away with those stories, some stand up and say "enough! this is becoming too threatening and we're discovering new things which can now guide us further with less violent results."
Atheism is a challenging response to belief in God - nothing more. As the chorus gets louder it become threatening to those who may have never really challenged their own beliefs, but that does not make it a form of religion.
I don’t think that Atheists challenge other beliefs; in fact we are probably more accepting of others beliefs than those who believe.
How many Atheists have you seen standing on street corners shouting to people to ‘stop believing’? Or knocking on doors of houses promoting their lack of belief?
Atheists mostly just get on with life and try not to get caught up with all the BS that various religions try to cram down our throats.
Its dialogue, thats what people do. We exchange views and challenge one another regarding those views. We tell stories to each other and when we become too carried away with those stories, some stand up and say "enough! this is becoming too threatening and we're discovering new things which can now guide us further with less violent results."
Atheism is a challenging response to belief in God - nothing more. As the chorus gets louder it become threatening to those who may have never really challenged their own beliefs, but that does not make it a form of religion.
I don’t think that Atheists challenge other beliefs; in fact we are probably more accepting of others beliefs than those who believe.
How many Atheists have you seen standing on street corners shouting to people to ‘stop believing’? Or knocking on doors of houses promoting their lack of belief?
Atheists mostly just get on with life and try not to get caught up with all the BS that various religions try to cram down our throats.
Is atheism a form of religion?
mikeinie;1303433 wrote: I don’t think that Atheists challenge other beliefs; in fact we are probably more accepting of others beliefs than those who believe.
How many Atheists have you seen standing on street corners shouting to people to ‘stop believing’? Or knocking on doors of houses promoting their lack of belief?
Atheists mostly just get on with life and try not to get caught up with all the BS that various religions try to cram down our throats.I agree that the majority of atheists do just as you say. But there are those that have the need to go about and initiate conversation regarding belief in God and religion. This forum has recently been confronted with challenges and these more recent threads by others who have been offended by the style and tone of them have been motivated to take the conversation further. I think thats a good thing. However, I see there is little chance of not offending, but this is a discussion forum.
I didn't know yo were atheist, Mikeinie.
How many Atheists have you seen standing on street corners shouting to people to ‘stop believing’? Or knocking on doors of houses promoting their lack of belief?
Atheists mostly just get on with life and try not to get caught up with all the BS that various religions try to cram down our throats.I agree that the majority of atheists do just as you say. But there are those that have the need to go about and initiate conversation regarding belief in God and religion. This forum has recently been confronted with challenges and these more recent threads by others who have been offended by the style and tone of them have been motivated to take the conversation further. I think thats a good thing. However, I see there is little chance of not offending, but this is a discussion forum.
I didn't know yo were atheist, Mikeinie.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303422 wrote:
And what I meant is your arguments regarding proof of non-existence are senseless, not you yourself. If I came across that way then I apologize. I don't think believers are intellectually inferior, thats you evading the subject and becoming defensive. I see you're trying to now make this about me.
GUFFAW.
No, I was talking about your arguments, not about you yourself. They are not logical. That only bothers me as you are yourself insisting on a logical approach. As for offensive / defensive. They're both just positions taken in argument.
Mike - I've noted your comments. Go read Glaswegian's offensive, and you'll see where we started from. This is not an atheist who is more accepting of other beliefs than those who believe. As for standing on street corners shouting at people not to believe - that is just what we've been getting. Of course not all atheists are like that.
I've always actually had a very great respect for real atheists, as I do for real believers. I don't mean people who blindly accept either position or who just don't really care either way or don't think the question of any importance. Real atheists and real believers have in common that they have given long and deep thought to life, the universe, everything - and made a clear decision, based on the evidence as they understand it.
There really isn't much more to be said.
And what I meant is your arguments regarding proof of non-existence are senseless, not you yourself. If I came across that way then I apologize. I don't think believers are intellectually inferior, thats you evading the subject and becoming defensive. I see you're trying to now make this about me.
GUFFAW.
No, I was talking about your arguments, not about you yourself. They are not logical. That only bothers me as you are yourself insisting on a logical approach. As for offensive / defensive. They're both just positions taken in argument.
Mike - I've noted your comments. Go read Glaswegian's offensive, and you'll see where we started from. This is not an atheist who is more accepting of other beliefs than those who believe. As for standing on street corners shouting at people not to believe - that is just what we've been getting. Of course not all atheists are like that.
I've always actually had a very great respect for real atheists, as I do for real believers. I don't mean people who blindly accept either position or who just don't really care either way or don't think the question of any importance. Real atheists and real believers have in common that they have given long and deep thought to life, the universe, everything - and made a clear decision, based on the evidence as they understand it.
There really isn't much more to be said.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"
Is atheism a form of religion?
AussiePam;1303442 wrote: GUFFAW.
No, I was talking about your arguments, not about you yourself. They are not logical. That only bothers me as you are yourself insisting on a logical approach. As for offensive / defensive. They're both just positions taken in argument.
Mike - I've noted your comments. Go read Glaswegian's offensive, and you'll see where we started from. This is not an atheist who is more accepting of other beliefs than those who believe. As for standing on street corners shouting at people not to believe - that is just what we've been getting. Of course not all atheists are like that.
I've always actually had a very great respect for real atheists, as I do for real believers. I don't mean people who blindly accept either position or who just don't really care either way or don't think the question of any importance. Real atheists and real believers have in common that they have given long and deep thought to life, the universe, everything - and made a clear decision, based on the evidence as they understand it. There really isn't much more to be said.
Very well, said, Pammie :-6
No, I was talking about your arguments, not about you yourself. They are not logical. That only bothers me as you are yourself insisting on a logical approach. As for offensive / defensive. They're both just positions taken in argument.
Mike - I've noted your comments. Go read Glaswegian's offensive, and you'll see where we started from. This is not an atheist who is more accepting of other beliefs than those who believe. As for standing on street corners shouting at people not to believe - that is just what we've been getting. Of course not all atheists are like that.
I've always actually had a very great respect for real atheists, as I do for real believers. I don't mean people who blindly accept either position or who just don't really care either way or don't think the question of any importance. Real atheists and real believers have in common that they have given long and deep thought to life, the universe, everything - and made a clear decision, based on the evidence as they understand it. There really isn't much more to be said.
Very well, said, Pammie :-6
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303438 wrote: I agree that the majority of atheists do just as you say. But there are those that have the need to go about and initiate conversation regarding belief in God and religion. This forum has recently been confronted with challenges and these more recent threads by others who have been offended by the style and tone of them have been motivated to take the conversation further. I think thats a good thing. However, I see there is little chance of not offending, but this is a discussion forum.
I didn't know yo were atheist, Mikeinie.
I am not so much an Atheist in that I ‘do not believe’.
I neither believe nor disbelieve. It is not so black and white with me. I simply do not know.
Who is to say what religion is right and which is wrong, and who is to say if there is anything at all?
I just live my life.
I am mad at the Catholic Church for what is going on at this point in time.
I don’t trust the Muslims, and do not like the way they treat their women.
If there is a God, I want to be judged on my behavior, what I do and do not do while I am here, and not based on where or who I pray to, if I pray at all. Then if there is no God, I can at least die knowing I have lived a good life and raised my children well.
That’s pretty much it for m.
I didn't know yo were atheist, Mikeinie.
I am not so much an Atheist in that I ‘do not believe’.
I neither believe nor disbelieve. It is not so black and white with me. I simply do not know.
Who is to say what religion is right and which is wrong, and who is to say if there is anything at all?
I just live my life.
I am mad at the Catholic Church for what is going on at this point in time.
I don’t trust the Muslims, and do not like the way they treat their women.
If there is a God, I want to be judged on my behavior, what I do and do not do while I am here, and not based on where or who I pray to, if I pray at all. Then if there is no God, I can at least die knowing I have lived a good life and raised my children well.
That’s pretty much it for m.
Is atheism a form of religion?
AussiePam;1303442 wrote: GUFFAW.
No, I was talking about your arguments, not about you yourself. They are not logical. That only bothers me as you are yourself insisting on a logical approach. As for offensive / defensive. They're both just positions taken in argument.What does GUFFAW mean?
I don't know that I'm a logical person. I suppose I am sometimes and not others. I speak from my being. You may not like what I say or how I say it.
Tell me how I can at least go about the mission of proving non-existence to you and I'll see if I can do that. The fact is though as I see it that is impossible to do. The burden of proof is not on the one responding to a claim with "prove it, and if you can't then there is no God."
Two people are looking at a bare wall.
Person#1 - How do you like that picture on the wall?
Person#2 - What picture?
Person#1 - That one in the frame hanging on the wall
Person#2 - There is no framed picture hanging on that wall.
Person#1 - Yes there is, I was told there was.
Person#2 - But have you ever actually seen this picture?
Person#1 - No but I can feel its presence because I believe it is there.
The two people are having a conversation with a third person;
p#1 to p#3 -You should have seen the beautiful picture we were looking at on the wall
p#2 to p#1 and p#3 - There was no picture on the wall.
p#1 to p#2 - just because you didn't see the picture on the wall doesn't mean it wasn't there.
p#2 - But it wasn't there. You even admitted you only believed it was there
p#1 - prove it
p#2 - how can I do that or why should I even attempt to? You said you only believe it to be there.
p#1 - see you can't prove it.
Even if the three people go look at the wall, p#1 will insist the picture is there by faith. That cannot be disproved. But that does not change the fact that there is no picture hanging on the wall.
Thats what this all sounds like. And to top it off, you want to make p#2 appear as p#1 regarding the picture. Thats nonsense.
No, I was talking about your arguments, not about you yourself. They are not logical. That only bothers me as you are yourself insisting on a logical approach. As for offensive / defensive. They're both just positions taken in argument.What does GUFFAW mean?
I don't know that I'm a logical person. I suppose I am sometimes and not others. I speak from my being. You may not like what I say or how I say it.
Tell me how I can at least go about the mission of proving non-existence to you and I'll see if I can do that. The fact is though as I see it that is impossible to do. The burden of proof is not on the one responding to a claim with "prove it, and if you can't then there is no God."
Two people are looking at a bare wall.
Person#1 - How do you like that picture on the wall?
Person#2 - What picture?
Person#1 - That one in the frame hanging on the wall
Person#2 - There is no framed picture hanging on that wall.
Person#1 - Yes there is, I was told there was.
Person#2 - But have you ever actually seen this picture?
Person#1 - No but I can feel its presence because I believe it is there.
The two people are having a conversation with a third person;
p#1 to p#3 -You should have seen the beautiful picture we were looking at on the wall
p#2 to p#1 and p#3 - There was no picture on the wall.
p#1 to p#2 - just because you didn't see the picture on the wall doesn't mean it wasn't there.
p#2 - But it wasn't there. You even admitted you only believed it was there
p#1 - prove it
p#2 - how can I do that or why should I even attempt to? You said you only believe it to be there.
p#1 - see you can't prove it.
Even if the three people go look at the wall, p#1 will insist the picture is there by faith. That cannot be disproved. But that does not change the fact that there is no picture hanging on the wall.
Thats what this all sounds like. And to top it off, you want to make p#2 appear as p#1 regarding the picture. Thats nonsense.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Is atheism a form of religion?
mikeinie;1303449 wrote: I am not so much an Atheist in that I ‘do not believe’.
I neither believe nor disbelieve. It is not so black and white with me. I simply do not know.
Who is to say what religion is right and which is wrong, and who is to say if there is anything at all?
I just live my life.
I am mad at the Catholic Church for what is going on at this point in time.
I don’t trust the Muslims, and do not like the way they treat their women.
If there is a God, I want to be judged on my behavior, what I do and do not do while I am here, and not based on where or who I pray to, if I pray at all. Then if there is no God, I can at least die knowing I have lived a good life and raised my children well.
That’s pretty much it for m.
Exactly my sentiments.
I will add that I've studied various religions and I've studied philosophy which studied religions, miracles, visions, etc., and I still feel that we can't know or prove the existence or non-existence of God. Yet.
I neither believe nor disbelieve. It is not so black and white with me. I simply do not know.
Who is to say what religion is right and which is wrong, and who is to say if there is anything at all?
I just live my life.
I am mad at the Catholic Church for what is going on at this point in time.
I don’t trust the Muslims, and do not like the way they treat their women.
If there is a God, I want to be judged on my behavior, what I do and do not do while I am here, and not based on where or who I pray to, if I pray at all. Then if there is no God, I can at least die knowing I have lived a good life and raised my children well.
That’s pretty much it for m.
Exactly my sentiments.
I will add that I've studied various religions and I've studied philosophy which studied religions, miracles, visions, etc., and I still feel that we can't know or prove the existence or non-existence of God. Yet.
Is atheism a form of religion?
....
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303458 wrote: ....
That's weird! A message came up in my e-mails with a question you had posted about seeing God. Did you erase it or am I seeing visions?
That's weird! A message came up in my e-mails with a question you had posted about seeing God. Did you erase it or am I seeing visions?
Is atheism a form of religion?
Zapata;1303366 wrote: How has it been proven that there is NO God?
What you have to do is look at all the evidence and come to your own conclusion whether god exists or not and take it from there. You aren't gong to find anywhere to go where someone will tell you all about how there is no god and what you need to do on order to not worship your god who isn't there. Atheism is not a religion it's a personal decision you must make having weighed up the evidence to your satisfaction. The key phrase is beyond reasonable doubt, on the evidence do you conclude there is a god or there isn't one?
If you decide that there is after all a god despite all the evidence to the contrary no one will force you to change your mind, condemn you to any kind of eternal suffering because you reject the evidence of god not existing nor will you be cast out from society because you don't share a particular belief. No one will stop you reading anything that suggests there is a god - no matter how far fetched or insist that you refrain from stating your belief in god.
On the other hand of you decide you are atheist be careful as you may find yourself shunned, religious people will demand to know why you disrespect their beliefs and by what right you object to being told to join in prayers to a god you don't believe exists. In some places you will find people who believe you cannot have any sense of right or wrong because you don't believe in god and in parts of the united states as well as the middle east you will be barred from holding public office, if called to give evidence at a trial your word will not be believed because you will not swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth on a book you do not believe is the word of god - although if you lie and swear curiously enough you will be believed. In past times you would be in severe risk of being burned alive as a heretic or tortured until you recanted in order to save your soul.
No one can priove 100% there is no god any more than anyone can priove there is one. However you can be 99.9% certain there is no god - but that decision is up to you to make.
posted by k snyder
This is irrelevant to the discussion because what negates this argument is to simply suggest people murder and kill without fear of "God". Hitler is the epitome of a true "evolutionist", the very same label you're pleased to address yourself with(No implication). You know, "supreme white race" and all of that garbage
Hitler was a catholic and had the active support of the catholic church. That is a fact however much people like to comfort themselves he was a godless atheist. Although latterly he went off on some mystical kick of his own. Do you really think the holocaust would have taken place without two thousand u-years of hatred aimed at the jews for killing christ?
There are been millions slaughtered in the name of religion by the religious, the jews in the holocaust were slaughtered because of their religion by mainly christian concentration camp guards. By what kind of demented logic do you conclude the holocaust wasn't caused by religion?
What you have to do is look at all the evidence and come to your own conclusion whether god exists or not and take it from there. You aren't gong to find anywhere to go where someone will tell you all about how there is no god and what you need to do on order to not worship your god who isn't there. Atheism is not a religion it's a personal decision you must make having weighed up the evidence to your satisfaction. The key phrase is beyond reasonable doubt, on the evidence do you conclude there is a god or there isn't one?
If you decide that there is after all a god despite all the evidence to the contrary no one will force you to change your mind, condemn you to any kind of eternal suffering because you reject the evidence of god not existing nor will you be cast out from society because you don't share a particular belief. No one will stop you reading anything that suggests there is a god - no matter how far fetched or insist that you refrain from stating your belief in god.
On the other hand of you decide you are atheist be careful as you may find yourself shunned, religious people will demand to know why you disrespect their beliefs and by what right you object to being told to join in prayers to a god you don't believe exists. In some places you will find people who believe you cannot have any sense of right or wrong because you don't believe in god and in parts of the united states as well as the middle east you will be barred from holding public office, if called to give evidence at a trial your word will not be believed because you will not swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth on a book you do not believe is the word of god - although if you lie and swear curiously enough you will be believed. In past times you would be in severe risk of being burned alive as a heretic or tortured until you recanted in order to save your soul.
No one can priove 100% there is no god any more than anyone can priove there is one. However you can be 99.9% certain there is no god - but that decision is up to you to make.
posted by k snyder
This is irrelevant to the discussion because what negates this argument is to simply suggest people murder and kill without fear of "God". Hitler is the epitome of a true "evolutionist", the very same label you're pleased to address yourself with(No implication). You know, "supreme white race" and all of that garbage
Hitler was a catholic and had the active support of the catholic church. That is a fact however much people like to comfort themselves he was a godless atheist. Although latterly he went off on some mystical kick of his own. Do you really think the holocaust would have taken place without two thousand u-years of hatred aimed at the jews for killing christ?
There are been millions slaughtered in the name of religion by the religious, the jews in the holocaust were slaughtered because of their religion by mainly christian concentration camp guards. By what kind of demented logic do you conclude the holocaust wasn't caused by religion?
Is atheism a form of religion?
[QUOTE=gmc;1303469]
Hitler was a catholic and had the active support of the catholic church. That is a fact however much people like to comfort themselves he was a godless atheist. Although latterly he went off on some mystical kick of his own. Do you really think the holocaust would have taken place without two thousand u-years of hatred aimed at the jews for killing christ?
There are been millions slaughtered in the name of religion by the religious, the jews in the holocaust were slaughtered because of their religion by mainly christian concentration camp guards. By what kind of demented logic do you conclude the holocaust wasn't caused by religion?[/QUOTE]
OK this may be contentious, but..
The Jews were not killed in by the Hitler because of their religion per say. That is to say, his motives were not religious. In fact when Hitler was a student in Austria, ironically, his roommate and best friend was Jewish.
The Jews were targeted by Hitler because he knew that it was a group of people that he could incite hate against very easily, and all Fascists need to have a target of hate. It was strategic and planned.
The Jewish people were already targets of antiemetic hate, so it was an easy step to make them the hated enemies and cause for the suffering of Germany. His propaganda to incite the hatred was not based on the faith of the Jewish people, it was based on degrading them and showing them as people stealing from the German economy, taking care of themselves at the costs of ‘ordinary Germans’ and conspiring to take over the German economy. They were shown as rats, but there was nothing about them being guilty for the killing of Jesus.
Fascists target groups of people that it is easy to lay blame on for social failures, in the case of the Nazis; they chose the Jewish to target.
The same thing has happened to gypsies over the years as it has to the people in Rwanda and in Bosnia and unfortunately in other places and to people around the world.
Pick a people in your community, and turn the community against them.
Hitler was a catholic and had the active support of the catholic church. That is a fact however much people like to comfort themselves he was a godless atheist. Although latterly he went off on some mystical kick of his own. Do you really think the holocaust would have taken place without two thousand u-years of hatred aimed at the jews for killing christ?
There are been millions slaughtered in the name of religion by the religious, the jews in the holocaust were slaughtered because of their religion by mainly christian concentration camp guards. By what kind of demented logic do you conclude the holocaust wasn't caused by religion?[/QUOTE]
OK this may be contentious, but..
The Jews were not killed in by the Hitler because of their religion per say. That is to say, his motives were not religious. In fact when Hitler was a student in Austria, ironically, his roommate and best friend was Jewish.
The Jews were targeted by Hitler because he knew that it was a group of people that he could incite hate against very easily, and all Fascists need to have a target of hate. It was strategic and planned.
The Jewish people were already targets of antiemetic hate, so it was an easy step to make them the hated enemies and cause for the suffering of Germany. His propaganda to incite the hatred was not based on the faith of the Jewish people, it was based on degrading them and showing them as people stealing from the German economy, taking care of themselves at the costs of ‘ordinary Germans’ and conspiring to take over the German economy. They were shown as rats, but there was nothing about them being guilty for the killing of Jesus.
Fascists target groups of people that it is easy to lay blame on for social failures, in the case of the Nazis; they chose the Jewish to target.
The same thing has happened to gypsies over the years as it has to the people in Rwanda and in Bosnia and unfortunately in other places and to people around the world.
Pick a people in your community, and turn the community against them.
Is atheism a form of religion?
I had tried to express the concept that every human being, regardless of professed religion or lack thereof, has assumed answers to religious questions in their lives. This concept is an echo of one of Ernest Becker's central points that "because all personal and cultural immortality projects, strategies and ideologies (collectively the stuff of culture) function to allay the terror of mortality, finitude, insignificance and nothingness, in a very real sense even secular societies are religious to the core. Culture helps us confront the mysteries of life and death, of mortality and immortality, and makes it deeply religious or sacred. Any legitimate distinction between the secular and sacred at the social level quickly collapses at the psychological level. Religious faith in the broadest sense is the inevitable human response to mortality awareness." Leichty, Daniel. The Ernest Becker Reader. p21-22
People must form what can be seen as religious beliefs in order to alleviate the anxiety that would otherwise psychologically cripple them. Some people have a dislike of the word "religion" but they require a belief system that fulfills the same purpose whatever they wish to call it. I, personally, do not blame words for what emotional attachments some people have formed around them.
Every culture fulfills religious needs, that's the only reason we form and maintain them.
People must form what can be seen as religious beliefs in order to alleviate the anxiety that would otherwise psychologically cripple them. Some people have a dislike of the word "religion" but they require a belief system that fulfills the same purpose whatever they wish to call it. I, personally, do not blame words for what emotional attachments some people have formed around them.
Every culture fulfills religious needs, that's the only reason we form and maintain them.
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303488 wrote: I took this off another thread so not to go any further off course with it, as I tend to do at times. What is it you find mysterious about life and death? For me there isn't much mystery to it. Wondrous, yes - mysterious, no. It is hard work though.
so, here we are, back in the thread....
It would be easy to state there is no mystery if you draw comparisons between the universe... which is endless... a concept that the human mind is incapable of understanding and a closet... which you did earlier in this thread. The universe is not analagous to a closet.
You have also skirted around the fact that science has no idea how the mind works. They are making progress with the brain but there are vast amounts of unknowns in relation to mind, personality, animating life force origins etc. Knowing how a creature is biologically conceived and grown does not explain how it becomes animated.
so, here we are, back in the thread....
It would be easy to state there is no mystery if you draw comparisons between the universe... which is endless... a concept that the human mind is incapable of understanding and a closet... which you did earlier in this thread. The universe is not analagous to a closet.
You have also skirted around the fact that science has no idea how the mind works. They are making progress with the brain but there are vast amounts of unknowns in relation to mind, personality, animating life force origins etc. Knowing how a creature is biologically conceived and grown does not explain how it becomes animated.
Is atheism a form of religion?
koan;1303499 wrote: so, here we are, back in the thread....
It would be easy to state there is no mystery if you draw comparisons between the universe... which is endless... a concept that the human mind is incapable of understanding and a closet... which you did earlier in this thread. The universe is not analagous to a closet. So, God chooses to remain out there somewhere? We were not talking about cosmology, the subject was religion. Whether people choose to provide the universe, their soul or a closet as Gods hiding place makes no difference to me. He ain't in any of them. Just produce God and you win. Can't do that though, can you?
koan;1303499 wrote: You have also skirted around the fact that science has no idea how the mind works. They are making progress with the brain but there are vast amounts of unknowns in relation to mind, personality, animating life force origins etc. Knowing how a creature is biologically conceived and grown does not explain how it becomes animated.I've not skirted around anything. Your acknowledgement of Evolution is limited to biology, but thats not the extent of it. Our brains are formed for the soul purpose of survival of the species, and everything it does, it does for that reason.
Evolution is a completely new way of thinking, and that means saying goodbye to many of the concepts we were taught and cling to, but it is time to move on now. I'm sorry about that but its not my fault. I didn't perpetuate these lies and misconceptions any longer than I became aware of the differences. When that occurred, I changed my entire conversation.
Now, you can call that a religion if you want, and no doubt some will. However, the difference is I have evidence, you don't. You have mystery!
Everything I've said here, Koan, I say with respect, because I do respect you. I'm not the most tactful person with language however.
It would be easy to state there is no mystery if you draw comparisons between the universe... which is endless... a concept that the human mind is incapable of understanding and a closet... which you did earlier in this thread. The universe is not analagous to a closet. So, God chooses to remain out there somewhere? We were not talking about cosmology, the subject was religion. Whether people choose to provide the universe, their soul or a closet as Gods hiding place makes no difference to me. He ain't in any of them. Just produce God and you win. Can't do that though, can you?
koan;1303499 wrote: You have also skirted around the fact that science has no idea how the mind works. They are making progress with the brain but there are vast amounts of unknowns in relation to mind, personality, animating life force origins etc. Knowing how a creature is biologically conceived and grown does not explain how it becomes animated.I've not skirted around anything. Your acknowledgement of Evolution is limited to biology, but thats not the extent of it. Our brains are formed for the soul purpose of survival of the species, and everything it does, it does for that reason.
Evolution is a completely new way of thinking, and that means saying goodbye to many of the concepts we were taught and cling to, but it is time to move on now. I'm sorry about that but its not my fault. I didn't perpetuate these lies and misconceptions any longer than I became aware of the differences. When that occurred, I changed my entire conversation.
Now, you can call that a religion if you want, and no doubt some will. However, the difference is I have evidence, you don't. You have mystery!
Everything I've said here, Koan, I say with respect, because I do respect you. I'm not the most tactful person with language however.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Is atheism a form of religion?
You ask people to "produce" God as if God would be a visible object :yh_rotfl
"Our brains are formed for the soul purpose of survival of the species" is another assertion, along with "there is no God," that requires belief.
"Our brains are formed for the soul purpose of survival of the species" is another assertion, along with "there is no God," that requires belief.
Is atheism a form of religion?
koan;1303503 wrote: You ask people to "produce" God as if God would be a visible object :yh_rotflGreat, then that makes your burden of proof easier. Prove the existence of the invisible God.
koan;1303503 wrote: "Our brains are formed for the soul purpose of survival of the species" is another assertion, along with "there is no God," that requires belief. It requires looking seriously at both issues from both sides. Yes, I believe the science.
Not only the brain. Every part of what and who you are serves that purpose. The only remaining thing is awareness.
koan;1303503 wrote: "Our brains are formed for the soul purpose of survival of the species" is another assertion, along with "there is no God," that requires belief. It requires looking seriously at both issues from both sides. Yes, I believe the science.
Not only the brain. Every part of what and who you are serves that purpose. The only remaining thing is awareness.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303504 wrote: Great, then that makes your burden of proof easier. Prove the existence of the invisible God.
That's nonsensical that it would be easier.
Prove that the universe, space, is endless.
It requires looking seriously at both issues from both sides. Yes, I believe the science.
Not only the brain. Every part of what and who you are serves that purpose. The only remaining thing is awareness.
prove it.
That's nonsensical that it would be easier.
Prove that the universe, space, is endless.
It requires looking seriously at both issues from both sides. Yes, I believe the science.
Not only the brain. Every part of what and who you are serves that purpose. The only remaining thing is awareness.
prove it.
Is atheism a form of religion?
koan;1303611 wrote: That's nonsensical that it would be easier.
Prove that the universe, space, is endless.This God can't prove existence? Doesn't sound like much of a God to me. Are you sure its not just some homeless person claiming to be God?
koan;1303611 wrote: prove it.Prove it isn't true! :wah:
It takes an interest to understand evolution. Are you curious enough to want to do that? I can provide you with links and some book selections.
Though the most obvious proof would be the fact that the human species dominates and controls life on the planet.
Prove that the universe, space, is endless.This God can't prove existence? Doesn't sound like much of a God to me. Are you sure its not just some homeless person claiming to be God?
koan;1303611 wrote: prove it.Prove it isn't true! :wah:
It takes an interest to understand evolution. Are you curious enough to want to do that? I can provide you with links and some book selections.
Though the most obvious proof would be the fact that the human species dominates and controls life on the planet.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Is atheism a form of religion?
koan;1303503 wrote: You ask people to "produce" God as if God would be a visible object :yh_rotfl
"Our brains are formed for the soul purpose of survival of the species" is another assertion, along with "there is no God," that requires belief.
Actually no it doesn't. You can look at the evidence and come to a conclusion. There is no god. Yes it is a belief that god does not exist but it a reasoned belief unlike faith where you are required to believe without any evidence. One is rational the other is not.
Reason is the enemy of faith.
Martin Luther
Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and wish to know nothing but the word of God.
Martin Luther
Atheists are not the ones claiming the existence of god so why should the burden of proof be on them to prove there isn't one? You can't prove something doesn't exist, for what i would have thought were fairly obvious reasons, but if something exists then surely you can prove it. So do so.
The godly make the claim there is a god let them prove it if they can but instead they would rather shout down and terrorise all those whose only crime is to say I don't believe this nonsense.
I can hear them now - god doesn't need to prove his existence. God is and always has been (when asked who made god). It is self evident god exists - no it isn't for I am a reasonable man which means I am always in danger of being trampled underfoot by the god fearing on their way to paradise.
Posted by mikeinie
OK this may be contentious, but..
The Jews were not killed in by the Hitler because of their religion per say. That is to say, his motives were not religious. In fact when Hitler was a student in Austria, ironically, his roommate and best friend was Jewish.
The Jews were targeted by Hitler because he knew that it was a group of people that he could incite hate against very easily, and all Fascists need to have a target of hate. It was strategic and planned.
Without two thousand years of anti-semitism would they have been such a target? Would he have had that hatred without that indoctrination? They were the only ones where genocide was the stated intention. More would have escaped but there was nowhere for them to go as every nation in the world closed their borders to them how do you explain that if it was not inspired by religion?
"Our brains are formed for the soul purpose of survival of the species" is another assertion, along with "there is no God," that requires belief.
Actually no it doesn't. You can look at the evidence and come to a conclusion. There is no god. Yes it is a belief that god does not exist but it a reasoned belief unlike faith where you are required to believe without any evidence. One is rational the other is not.
Reason is the enemy of faith.
Martin Luther
Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and wish to know nothing but the word of God.
Martin Luther
Atheists are not the ones claiming the existence of god so why should the burden of proof be on them to prove there isn't one? You can't prove something doesn't exist, for what i would have thought were fairly obvious reasons, but if something exists then surely you can prove it. So do so.
The godly make the claim there is a god let them prove it if they can but instead they would rather shout down and terrorise all those whose only crime is to say I don't believe this nonsense.
I can hear them now - god doesn't need to prove his existence. God is and always has been (when asked who made god). It is self evident god exists - no it isn't for I am a reasonable man which means I am always in danger of being trampled underfoot by the god fearing on their way to paradise.
Posted by mikeinie
OK this may be contentious, but..
The Jews were not killed in by the Hitler because of their religion per say. That is to say, his motives were not religious. In fact when Hitler was a student in Austria, ironically, his roommate and best friend was Jewish.
The Jews were targeted by Hitler because he knew that it was a group of people that he could incite hate against very easily, and all Fascists need to have a target of hate. It was strategic and planned.
Without two thousand years of anti-semitism would they have been such a target? Would he have had that hatred without that indoctrination? They were the only ones where genocide was the stated intention. More would have escaped but there was nowhere for them to go as every nation in the world closed their borders to them how do you explain that if it was not inspired by religion?
Is atheism a form of religion?
I think it is for the zealot. But I also think there are a lot of atheists that just live life day to day without taking issue with those who believe.
I don't pretend to know if there is or isn't a higher being somewhere out there. I believe that if there is, leaders of most organized religions would not be a the top of its hit parade. I believe that if there is something better out there then what we have to offer ourselves, a lot of folks will have some explaining to do, come judgment day. I believe that unless said higher being is evil in nature, it will take serious issue with religious leaders raising their flocks in fear of, rather then in awe of, this higher being. I just don't see a 'real' god needing or wanting me to fear it.
My daughter seems to like the Lutheran church and it seems like a Catholic lite to me.
I don't pretend to know if there is or isn't a higher being somewhere out there. I believe that if there is, leaders of most organized religions would not be a the top of its hit parade. I believe that if there is something better out there then what we have to offer ourselves, a lot of folks will have some explaining to do, come judgment day. I believe that unless said higher being is evil in nature, it will take serious issue with religious leaders raising their flocks in fear of, rather then in awe of, this higher being. I just don't see a 'real' god needing or wanting me to fear it.
My daughter seems to like the Lutheran church and it seems like a Catholic lite to me.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Is atheism a form of religion?
gmc;1303639 wrote: Posted by mikeinie
Without two thousand years of anti-semitism would they have been such a target? Would he have had that hatred without that indoctrination? They were the only ones where genocide was the stated intention. More would have escaped but there was nowhere for them to go as every nation in the world closed their borders to them how do you explain that if it was not inspired by religion?
This is what I meant by it being a strategy, yes it was inspired by religion, and anti-Semitism, that is what made it so easy for the Hitler. But it was not for religious purposes. That is my main point.
Without two thousand years of anti-semitism would they have been such a target? Would he have had that hatred without that indoctrination? They were the only ones where genocide was the stated intention. More would have escaped but there was nowhere for them to go as every nation in the world closed their borders to them how do you explain that if it was not inspired by religion?
This is what I meant by it being a strategy, yes it was inspired by religion, and anti-Semitism, that is what made it so easy for the Hitler. But it was not for religious purposes. That is my main point.
Is atheism a form of religion?
mikeinie;1303648 wrote: This is what I meant by it being a strategy, yes it was inspired by religion, and anti-Semitism, that is what made it so easy for the Hitler. But it was not for religious purposes. That is my main point.
Perhaps not for him, he seems to have gone off on some weird mystical trip of his own but his hatred came from religion, was fed by religion and he got away with it because of religious hatred all too many thought the jews got what they deserved because of their religion. All that outpouring of hated and bile for the jews came from religion and religious persecution of the jews. Doesn't matter how much you try and qualify it religion is at the back of it. How would you explain the anti-Semitism in the states and throughout Europe where there was no hitler to blame?
Perhaps not for him, he seems to have gone off on some weird mystical trip of his own but his hatred came from religion, was fed by religion and he got away with it because of religious hatred all too many thought the jews got what they deserved because of their religion. All that outpouring of hated and bile for the jews came from religion and religious persecution of the jews. Doesn't matter how much you try and qualify it religion is at the back of it. How would you explain the anti-Semitism in the states and throughout Europe where there was no hitler to blame?
Is atheism a form of religion?
gmc;1303651 wrote: Perhaps not for him, he seems to have gone off on some weird mystical trip of his own but his hatred came from religion, was fed by religion and he got away with it because of religious hatred all too many thought the jews got what they deserved because of their religion. All that outpouring of hated and bile for the jews came from religion and religious persecution of the jews. Doesn't matter how much you try and qualify it religion is at the back of it. How would you explain the anti-Semitism in the states and throughout Europe where there was no hitler to blame?
OH bullsh
!
He was a miserable little twerp who failed to get his own way for years, and found a convenient scapegoat for his anger and frustration, then found he had a gift for convincing people to do his bidding. He hung out with a bunch of thugs and bullied his way into a position of power.
It had nothing to do with religion.
It had everything to do with helping the people focus their anger and frustration on their favorite scapegoat, and it had to do with pandering to their poor national self-esteem.
For the record, only about half of all the people the Nazis wiped out were Jews.
It was much more about racism than religion for "Der Fuhrer".
OH bullsh
!He was a miserable little twerp who failed to get his own way for years, and found a convenient scapegoat for his anger and frustration, then found he had a gift for convincing people to do his bidding. He hung out with a bunch of thugs and bullied his way into a position of power.
It had nothing to do with religion.
It had everything to do with helping the people focus their anger and frustration on their favorite scapegoat, and it had to do with pandering to their poor national self-esteem.
For the record, only about half of all the people the Nazis wiped out were Jews.
It was much more about racism than religion for "Der Fuhrer".
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Is atheism a form of religion?
To answer the OP :-
Religion:- The expression of man's belief in, and reverence for a superhuman power or powers regarded as creating or governing the universe. [quote from Universal Dictionary]
As an atheist does not believe in the existence of a superhuman power or powers, then it is feasible to accept that atheism is not a form of religion.
Religion:- The expression of man's belief in, and reverence for a superhuman power or powers regarded as creating or governing the universe. [quote from Universal Dictionary]
As an atheist does not believe in the existence of a superhuman power or powers, then it is feasible to accept that atheism is not a form of religion.
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Is atheism a form of religion?
G#Gill;1303672 wrote: To answer the OP :-
Religion:- The expression of man's belief in, and reverence for a superhuman power or powers regarded as creating or governing the universe. [quote from Universal Dictionary]
As an atheist does not believe in the existence of a superhuman power or powers, then it is feasible to accept that atheism is not a form of religion.
There you go.
Religion:- The expression of man's belief in, and reverence for a superhuman power or powers regarded as creating or governing the universe. [quote from Universal Dictionary]
As an atheist does not believe in the existence of a superhuman power or powers, then it is feasible to accept that atheism is not a form of religion.
There you go.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Is atheism a form of religion?
While a supernatural origin is often inferred, it is not an absolute.
From Dictionary.com
Similar definition can be found in early Webster's
re·li·gion
/rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8. Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom 9. get religion, Informal . a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.
Use religion in a Sentence
See images of religion
Search religion on the Web
Origin:
1150–1200; ME religioun (re- + ligāre to bind, tie; cf. ligament) + -iōn- -ion; cf. rely
From Dictionary.com
Similar definition can be found in early Webster's
re·li·gion
/rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8. Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom 9. get religion, Informal . a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.
Use religion in a Sentence
See images of religion
Search religion on the Web
Origin:
1150–1200; ME religioun (re- + ligāre to bind, tie; cf. ligament) + -iōn- -ion; cf. rely
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Is atheism a form of religion?
G#Gill;1303672 wrote: To answer the OP :-
Religion:- The expression of man's belief in, and reverence for a superhuman power or powers regarded as creating or governing the universe. [quote from Universal Dictionary]
As an atheist does not believe in the existence of a superhuman power or powers, then it is feasible to accept that atheism is not a form of religion.
On the onset it can appear that easy, sure...:yh_wink :yh_kiss
I personally see the viewpoint as a belief with an overwhelming desire to convince people that ""god", does not exist". So much so they preach publicly about how ""god", does not exist" spreading their agenda. What's the difference?
Religion:- The expression of man's belief in, and reverence for a superhuman power or powers regarded as creating or governing the universe. [quote from Universal Dictionary]
As an atheist does not believe in the existence of a superhuman power or powers, then it is feasible to accept that atheism is not a form of religion.
On the onset it can appear that easy, sure...:yh_wink :yh_kiss
I personally see the viewpoint as a belief with an overwhelming desire to convince people that ""god", does not exist". So much so they preach publicly about how ""god", does not exist" spreading their agenda. What's the difference?
Is atheism a form of religion?
gmc;1303469 wrote: Hitler was a catholic and had the active support of the catholic church. That is a fact however much people like to comfort themselves he was a godless atheist. Although latterly he went off on some mystical kick of his own. Do you really think the holocaust would have taken place without two thousand u-years of hatred aimed at the jews for killing christ?
There are been millions slaughtered in the name of religion by the religious, the jews in the holocaust were slaughtered because of their religion by mainly christian concentration camp guards. By what kind of demented logic do you conclude the holocaust wasn't caused by religion?
I'd voted "yes" from the onslaught at the same time have expressed, throughout my existence on this forum, of how I know of everyone to have their own separate religion. Anything anyone does is religious, the difference lying in what we could compare each action with other actions. It's how we come to term "precedent", something I know you're familiar with.
I don't see hitler's actions as even remotely close to "christian" or "catholic" and I've observed, through historical reading, that hiter's actions can be best described as being "the epitome of a true evolutionist". Demented logic?, au contraire, quite frankly I don't know how anyone could come up with anything different
There are been millions slaughtered in the name of religion by the religious, the jews in the holocaust were slaughtered because of their religion by mainly christian concentration camp guards. By what kind of demented logic do you conclude the holocaust wasn't caused by religion?
I'd voted "yes" from the onslaught at the same time have expressed, throughout my existence on this forum, of how I know of everyone to have their own separate religion. Anything anyone does is religious, the difference lying in what we could compare each action with other actions. It's how we come to term "precedent", something I know you're familiar with.
I don't see hitler's actions as even remotely close to "christian" or "catholic" and I've observed, through historical reading, that hiter's actions can be best described as being "the epitome of a true evolutionist". Demented logic?, au contraire, quite frankly I don't know how anyone could come up with anything different
Is atheism a form of religion?
LarsMac;1303653 wrote: OH bullsh!
He was a miserable little twerp who failed to get his own way for years, and found a convenient scapegoat for his anger and frustration, then found he had a gift for convincing people to do his bidding. He hung out with a bunch of thugs and bullied his way into a position of power.
It had nothing to do with religion.
It had everything to do with helping the people focus their anger and frustration on their favorite scapegoat, and it had to do with pandering to their poor national self-esteem.
For the record, only about half of all the people the Nazis wiped out were Jews.
It was much more about racism than religion for "Der Fuhrer".
Sadly there was a bit more to him than just being an ineffectual little twerp. So why then did so many nations turn their backs on jewish refugees and refuse to take them even after it was known what was happening in germany. Your own nations policy was quite decidedly anti-semitic with no hitler to blame. He was clever in the way he conflated fears of communism with fears of the jew but he had support from all around the world in large part because of the anti-Semitism. Hitler had mass support however much people like to ignore that fact. The american nazis just morphed in to something else as to opposed to being soundly defeated as they were in europe. Have a look at the McCarthy hearings in the fifties that was as much inspired by anti-Semitism as fear of communism.
History of the Jews in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He was a racist as well in a kind of social Darwinism meets the bible sort of way. The germans were the chosen people the master race with a god given right to rule. The key thing is were it not for the widespread anti-semitism he wouldn't have succeeded. The catholic church didn't object and in a catholic country the threat of excommunication is a powerful one.
posted by k snyder
I'd voted "yes" from the onslaught at the same time have expressed, throughout my existence on this forum, of how I know of everyone to have their own separate religion. Anything anyone does is religious, the difference lying in what we could compare each action with other actions. It's how we come to term "precedent", something I know you're familiar with.
I don't see hitler's actions as even remotely close to "christian" or "catholic" and I've observed, through historical reading, that hiter's actions can be best described as being "the epitome of a true evolutionist". Demented logic?, au contraire, quite frankly I don't know how anyone could come up with anything different
There have been countless atrocities visited on innocents in the name of religion. It's almost impossible to look at the middle ages for instance, without coming across a religious war.
Let's turn it on it's height. Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale.
!He was a miserable little twerp who failed to get his own way for years, and found a convenient scapegoat for his anger and frustration, then found he had a gift for convincing people to do his bidding. He hung out with a bunch of thugs and bullied his way into a position of power.
It had nothing to do with religion.
It had everything to do with helping the people focus their anger and frustration on their favorite scapegoat, and it had to do with pandering to their poor national self-esteem.
For the record, only about half of all the people the Nazis wiped out were Jews.
It was much more about racism than religion for "Der Fuhrer".
Sadly there was a bit more to him than just being an ineffectual little twerp. So why then did so many nations turn their backs on jewish refugees and refuse to take them even after it was known what was happening in germany. Your own nations policy was quite decidedly anti-semitic with no hitler to blame. He was clever in the way he conflated fears of communism with fears of the jew but he had support from all around the world in large part because of the anti-Semitism. Hitler had mass support however much people like to ignore that fact. The american nazis just morphed in to something else as to opposed to being soundly defeated as they were in europe. Have a look at the McCarthy hearings in the fifties that was as much inspired by anti-Semitism as fear of communism.
History of the Jews in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He was a racist as well in a kind of social Darwinism meets the bible sort of way. The germans were the chosen people the master race with a god given right to rule. The key thing is were it not for the widespread anti-semitism he wouldn't have succeeded. The catholic church didn't object and in a catholic country the threat of excommunication is a powerful one.
posted by k snyder
I'd voted "yes" from the onslaught at the same time have expressed, throughout my existence on this forum, of how I know of everyone to have their own separate religion. Anything anyone does is religious, the difference lying in what we could compare each action with other actions. It's how we come to term "precedent", something I know you're familiar with.
I don't see hitler's actions as even remotely close to "christian" or "catholic" and I've observed, through historical reading, that hiter's actions can be best described as being "the epitome of a true evolutionist". Demented logic?, au contraire, quite frankly I don't know how anyone could come up with anything different
There have been countless atrocities visited on innocents in the name of religion. It's almost impossible to look at the middle ages for instance, without coming across a religious war.
Let's turn it on it's height. Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale.
-
LarryAllen
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:29 am
Is atheism a form of religion?
gmc;1303758 wrote:
Let's turn it on it's height. Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale.
Not true, mate.
A lot of Christians resisted the Nazis
Just to name one, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Let's turn it on it's height. Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale.
Not true, mate.
A lot of Christians resisted the Nazis
Just to name one, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Is atheism a form of religion?
LarryAllen;1303819 wrote: Not true, mate.
A lot of Christians resisted the Nazis
Just to name one, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.Define 'a lot'. One makes a majority not.
Sorry to do that to you on your first day on the job, Larry.
A lot of Christians resisted the Nazis
Just to name one, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.Define 'a lot'. One makes a majority not.
Sorry to do that to you on your first day on the job, Larry.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
LarryAllen
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:29 am
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303828 wrote: Define 'a lot'. One makes a majority not.
Sorry to do that to you on your first day on the job, Larry.
While many of the church leaders in Germany failed to stand up to the Nazis, Christians did not offer wholesale support to the programs of the Nazi leaders.
The Vatican cut a despicable deal, mainly to keep their churches and schools functioning in Germany. Had they not done so, Hitler had promised to round up all priests and staff of churches throughout Germany and "Deal with them."
However other churches, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses stood up to the Nazis.
Many other Christians across Europe aided the resistance and aided Jews fleeing the Nazis at no small risk to their own lives.
And while one might not make a majority, even one would deny the claim of "wholesale support."
An interesting write-up can be found at American Thinker blog. americanthinker.com
/2007/11/christian_opposition_to_nazi_a.html
I cannot post URL's yet, so you will have work with what I put here.
Sorry to do that to you on your first day on the job, Larry.
While many of the church leaders in Germany failed to stand up to the Nazis, Christians did not offer wholesale support to the programs of the Nazi leaders.
The Vatican cut a despicable deal, mainly to keep their churches and schools functioning in Germany. Had they not done so, Hitler had promised to round up all priests and staff of churches throughout Germany and "Deal with them."
However other churches, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses stood up to the Nazis.
Many other Christians across Europe aided the resistance and aided Jews fleeing the Nazis at no small risk to their own lives.
And while one might not make a majority, even one would deny the claim of "wholesale support."
An interesting write-up can be found at American Thinker blog. americanthinker.com
/2007/11/christian_opposition_to_nazi_a.html
I cannot post URL's yet, so you will have work with what I put here.
Is atheism a form of religion?
gmc;1303758 wrote: There have been countless atrocities visited on innocents in the name of religion. It's almost impossible to look at the middle ages for instance, without coming across a religious war.
Let's turn it on it's height. Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale.Personally gmc I'm not an expert on the events that had taken place before and during WW2. I can say however that the actions hitler had taken cannot be compared to "chritianity", "catholic", or even "muslim" in my mind so I'm forced to call it what I may suggest is a delusional fwad with some SERIOUS personal issues. "Don't joke about hitler's mustache he'll KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELL you!"
As far as "Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale" I have an extremely hard time believing and would also like to add that the states responsible for quelling hitler's army were all predominantly "christian" and "catholic" peoples. This brings me to my next question.
If you can readily admit that quite alot of churches are only churches due to a capitalist agenda then why must we exclude the possibility that hitler only used religion to fuel his own utterly "ignorant" agenda?
Let's turn it on it's height. Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale.Personally gmc I'm not an expert on the events that had taken place before and during WW2. I can say however that the actions hitler had taken cannot be compared to "chritianity", "catholic", or even "muslim" in my mind so I'm forced to call it what I may suggest is a delusional fwad with some SERIOUS personal issues. "Don't joke about hitler's mustache he'll KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELL you!"
As far as "Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale" I have an extremely hard time believing and would also like to add that the states responsible for quelling hitler's army were all predominantly "christian" and "catholic" peoples. This brings me to my next question.
If you can readily admit that quite alot of churches are only churches due to a capitalist agenda then why must we exclude the possibility that hitler only used religion to fuel his own utterly "ignorant" agenda?
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303425 wrote: Complete misrepresentation.
Misunderstanding of evolution. But common!
Of course it wasn't on both counts Ahso!. hitler wanted a dominant race/species.
Misunderstanding of evolution. But common!
Of course it wasn't on both counts Ahso!. hitler wanted a dominant race/species.
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303430 wrote: I probably shouldn't bother, but I will out of respect.
Its dialogue, thats what people do. We exchange views and challenge one another regarding those views. We tell stories to each other and when we become too carried away with those stories, some stand up and say "enough! this is becoming too threatening and we're discovering new things which can now guide us further with less violent results."
Atheism is a challenging response to belief in God - nothing more. As the chorus gets louder it become threatening to those who may have never really challenged their own beliefs, but that does not make it a form of religion.
You're basing your premise off of the idea that religion can only be defined by people that tell stories. An atheist responds to a thought with his/her thought of their own coming to a conclusion based off of the exact same question. What you fail to realize is that by asking(Atheists ask because atheists do not have the answer...This can best be compared with one arrogant, as well as equally delusional person defining their own lack of security, who suggests he/she has written down every number leading up to infinity, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!) any question, you successfully define that question as religious, fact #1. Asking also implies a preference to participate fact #2. The questions one asks defines their religion fact #3. Observing an answer negates the very definition of "religious" based off of the previous 3 facts' context of it which may blow "God" into a "World" of complete and utter submission. If you'd read this correctly then you'd be very pleased in the definition of "atheist" in which "Res ipsa loquitur" is appropriately suitable to the point of perfection. Can you guess what's been defined?
Its dialogue, thats what people do. We exchange views and challenge one another regarding those views. We tell stories to each other and when we become too carried away with those stories, some stand up and say "enough! this is becoming too threatening and we're discovering new things which can now guide us further with less violent results."
Atheism is a challenging response to belief in God - nothing more. As the chorus gets louder it become threatening to those who may have never really challenged their own beliefs, but that does not make it a form of religion.
You're basing your premise off of the idea that religion can only be defined by people that tell stories. An atheist responds to a thought with his/her thought of their own coming to a conclusion based off of the exact same question. What you fail to realize is that by asking(Atheists ask because atheists do not have the answer...This can best be compared with one arrogant, as well as equally delusional person defining their own lack of security, who suggests he/she has written down every number leading up to infinity, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!) any question, you successfully define that question as religious, fact #1. Asking also implies a preference to participate fact #2. The questions one asks defines their religion fact #3. Observing an answer negates the very definition of "religious" based off of the previous 3 facts' context of it which may blow "God" into a "World" of complete and utter submission. If you'd read this correctly then you'd be very pleased in the definition of "atheist" in which "Res ipsa loquitur" is appropriately suitable to the point of perfection. Can you guess what's been defined?
Is atheism a form of religion?
BTW, Mr. Ahso! you somehow avoided my question, how do you know "sand" "exists"?
Is atheism a form of religion?
K.Snyder;1303924 wrote: Personally gmc I'm not an expert on the events that had taken place before and during WW2. I can say however that the actions hitler had taken cannot be compared to "chritianity", "catholic", or even "muslim" in my mind so I'm forced to call it what I may suggest is a delusional fwad with some SERIOUS personal issues. "Don't joke about hitler's mustache he'll KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELL you!"
As far as "Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale" I have an extremely hard time believing and would also like to add that the states responsible for quelling hitler's army were all predominantly "christian" and "catholic" peoples. This brings me to my next question.
If you can readily admit that quite alot of churches are only churches due to a capitalist agenda then why must we exclude the possibility that hitler only used religion to fuel his own utterly "ignorant" agenda?
Oh I wouldn't exclude that at all but the anti-semitism wouldn't;t have worked as well as it did without centuries of consistent anti-semitism from the church. It was a world wide phenomenon.
It's the simplistic Hitler was an atheist if that explains everything that raises my ire.
As far as "Why did the christians do nothing to stop Hitler? In fact they supported him wholesale" I have an extremely hard time believing and would also like to add that the states responsible for quelling hitler's army were all predominantly "christian" and "catholic" peoples. This brings me to my next question.
If you can readily admit that quite alot of churches are only churches due to a capitalist agenda then why must we exclude the possibility that hitler only used religion to fuel his own utterly "ignorant" agenda?
Oh I wouldn't exclude that at all but the anti-semitism wouldn't;t have worked as well as it did without centuries of consistent anti-semitism from the church. It was a world wide phenomenon.
It's the simplistic Hitler was an atheist if that explains everything that raises my ire.
Is atheism a form of religion?
gmc;1303959 wrote: Oh I wouldn't exclude that at all but the anti-semitism wouldn't;t have worked as well as it did without centuries of consistent anti-semitism from the church. It was a world wide phenomenon.
It's the simplistic Hitler was an atheist if that explains everything that raises my ire.
I would never suggest atheists are more dangerous due to them having no fear of God. I'd also never suggest that religion hasn't played/play a role in influencing a resentment that may lead to murder. I do see quite a significant more number of "religious people" actively providing aid via resources to people that could/can truly use the assistance.
As far as the bonehead psychopath hitler I don't think it's relevant the argument of religion being an influencing factor for murder because even one instance of an atheist murdering out of no fear in God completely negates the implications wholeheartedly. We're after the motives of individuals and the concept of no religion and religion is the scapegoat behind an instinctive ignorance that we come to define "evil".
Quite simply God exists in the mind of those that believe and this is all that is needed to provide proof of the existence of that God but as I've said everyone's perception of God is different. God "sending someone to hell" would appear as satan to that person while the very same concept would appear as a divinely, never ending, loving being to those that go to heaven.
It's the simplistic Hitler was an atheist if that explains everything that raises my ire.
I would never suggest atheists are more dangerous due to them having no fear of God. I'd also never suggest that religion hasn't played/play a role in influencing a resentment that may lead to murder. I do see quite a significant more number of "religious people" actively providing aid via resources to people that could/can truly use the assistance.
As far as the bonehead psychopath hitler I don't think it's relevant the argument of religion being an influencing factor for murder because even one instance of an atheist murdering out of no fear in God completely negates the implications wholeheartedly. We're after the motives of individuals and the concept of no religion and religion is the scapegoat behind an instinctive ignorance that we come to define "evil".
Quite simply God exists in the mind of those that believe and this is all that is needed to provide proof of the existence of that God but as I've said everyone's perception of God is different. God "sending someone to hell" would appear as satan to that person while the very same concept would appear as a divinely, never ending, loving being to those that go to heaven.
Is atheism a form of religion?
K.Snyder;1303948 wrote: You're basing your premise off of the idea that religion can only be defined by people that tell stories. An atheist responds to a thought with his/her thought of their own coming to a conclusion based off of the exact same question. What you fail to realize is that by asking(Atheists ask because atheists do not have the answer...This can best be compared with one arrogant, as well as equally delusional person defining their own lack of security, who suggests he/she has written down every number leading up to infinity, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!) any question, you successfully define that question as religious, fact #1. Asking also implies a preference to participate fact #2. The questions one asks defines their religion fact #3. Observing an answer negates the very definition of "religious" based off of the previous 3 facts' context of it which may blow "God" into a "World" of complete and utter submission. If you'd read this correctly then you'd be very pleased in the definition of "atheist" in which "Res ipsa loquitur" is appropriately suitable to the point of perfection. Can you guess what's been defined?
The only definition can be that both "religious people" and "atheists" create their own answered existences, or lack thereof(Still serves as the same due to the "answer" being observed by either question- but none the less :wah: ) which makes them all truths to those that have the ability to encompass there own thoughts. If one were to "convert" the only difference would lie in the irrelevant past defining "truth" as a consequence of the aforementioned thoughts.
Anything else, constructively and all the more logical, defines "insanity".
The aftermath, obviously, is the game called "I'm right and you're wrong", which I'm sure everyone is familiar with, only would be more educative if everyone were to play the game "I'm right and you're wrong even though you're right". We'd manage to take steps forward in understanding that just because one is right doesn't make another wrong. Why? Because the Pauli Exclusion Principle defines it that's why! I've proof, not just testimony.
The only definition can be that both "religious people" and "atheists" create their own answered existences, or lack thereof(Still serves as the same due to the "answer" being observed by either question- but none the less :wah: ) which makes them all truths to those that have the ability to encompass there own thoughts. If one were to "convert" the only difference would lie in the irrelevant past defining "truth" as a consequence of the aforementioned thoughts.
Anything else, constructively and all the more logical, defines "insanity".
The aftermath, obviously, is the game called "I'm right and you're wrong", which I'm sure everyone is familiar with, only would be more educative if everyone were to play the game "I'm right and you're wrong even though you're right". We'd manage to take steps forward in understanding that just because one is right doesn't make another wrong. Why? Because the Pauli Exclusion Principle defines it that's why! I've proof, not just testimony.
Is atheism a form of religion?
Ahso!;1303450 wrote: What does GUFFAW mean?
I don't know that I'm a logical person. I suppose I am sometimes and not others. I speak from my being. You may not like what I say or how I say it.
Tell me how I can at least go about the mission of proving non-existence to you and I'll see if I can do that. The fact is though as I see it that is impossible to do. The burden of proof is not on the one responding to a claim with "prove it, and if you can't then there is no God."
Two people are looking at a bare wall.
Person#1 - How do you like that picture on the wall?
Person#2 - What picture?
Person#1 - That one in the frame hanging on the wall
Person#2 - There is no framed picture hanging on that wall.
Person#1 - Yes there is, I was told there was.
Person#2 - But have you ever actually seen this picture?
Person#1 - No but I can feel its presence because I believe it is there.
The two people are having a conversation with a third person;
p#1 to p#3 -You should have seen the beautiful picture we were looking at on the wall
p#2 to p#1 and p#3 - There was no picture on the wall.
p#1 to p#2 - just because you didn't see the picture on the wall doesn't mean it wasn't there.
p#2 - But it wasn't there. You even admitted you only believed it was there
p#1 - prove it
p#2 - how can I do that or why should I even attempt to? You said you only believe it to be there.
p#1 - see you can't prove it.
Even if the three people go look at the wall, p#1 will insist the picture is there by faith. That cannot be disproved. But that does not change the fact that there is no picture hanging on the wall.
Thats what this all sounds like. And to top it off, you want to make p#2 appear as p#1 regarding the picture. Thats nonsense.
How do you know you have a spine Ahso!? You cannot see that spine in your body so how do you know it's there? Do you have a spine?
I don't know that I'm a logical person. I suppose I am sometimes and not others. I speak from my being. You may not like what I say or how I say it.
Tell me how I can at least go about the mission of proving non-existence to you and I'll see if I can do that. The fact is though as I see it that is impossible to do. The burden of proof is not on the one responding to a claim with "prove it, and if you can't then there is no God."
Two people are looking at a bare wall.
Person#1 - How do you like that picture on the wall?
Person#2 - What picture?
Person#1 - That one in the frame hanging on the wall
Person#2 - There is no framed picture hanging on that wall.
Person#1 - Yes there is, I was told there was.
Person#2 - But have you ever actually seen this picture?
Person#1 - No but I can feel its presence because I believe it is there.
The two people are having a conversation with a third person;
p#1 to p#3 -You should have seen the beautiful picture we were looking at on the wall
p#2 to p#1 and p#3 - There was no picture on the wall.
p#1 to p#2 - just because you didn't see the picture on the wall doesn't mean it wasn't there.
p#2 - But it wasn't there. You even admitted you only believed it was there
p#1 - prove it
p#2 - how can I do that or why should I even attempt to? You said you only believe it to be there.
p#1 - see you can't prove it.
Even if the three people go look at the wall, p#1 will insist the picture is there by faith. That cannot be disproved. But that does not change the fact that there is no picture hanging on the wall.
Thats what this all sounds like. And to top it off, you want to make p#2 appear as p#1 regarding the picture. Thats nonsense.
How do you know you have a spine Ahso!? You cannot see that spine in your body so how do you know it's there? Do you have a spine?