Who else besides me....

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:35 am

Can see how prophecies in revelation can now come to pass? For instance all the prophecies regarding the armies on horses! And the ones with people collecting wood from the rubble. With the oil thing escalating out of control, I can now see how the blood can rise to the horses bridle! Can you?

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:45 am

Yes. I sure can. We seem to be sliding closer and closer to that day.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:40 pm

Actually the book of Revelation is akin to a political cartoon except in writing. Its references are totally in relation to the Roman Empire at the time that John, whomever he was, wrote Revelation. "Introducing the New Testament: Its Literature and Theology. by Achtemeier, Green and Thompson.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:05 am

Ted honey.....thats bollocks.

You discount absolutely everything that has to do with prophecy in that book! Yet you profess to believe in a risen Christ that was prophesied throughout. Yet you refuse to believe a single word he says!

Maybe one day, you'll really let Him speak to you.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:07 am

Clint wrote: Yes. I sure can. We seem to be sliding closer and closer to that day.
I dont know about you Clint.....but it still amazes me at how accurate and spot on those prophesies are. And they were made so long ago. Maybe it's just that we are so predictable.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:50 am

LOL! Canaan, even though I hold ted in the highest regard, I thoroughly disagree with his theosophy! I truly wish he could see with his heart and not his head.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:20 pm

Unfortunately Jesus was not prophesy fulfilled but after his death and resurrection the deciples and the evangelists came to the conclusion that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. Thus they went to the OT to seek out prophesies that seemed to point to him and wrote the story up as such. It is called Midrash.

Canaan:-6

There are many scholars who hold to the same belief as those three. I simply quote those three because I believe in supporting what I say with those who have done the research. Even J P Philips who completed a translation of the NT has said exactly the same thing.

Instead of trying to see everything in the Bible as historically true it is time to take the ancient Hebrews approach who were not concerned about "did it happen" but "what does it mean".

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:30 pm

I offer the following only to show that I am not alone in any way in my beliefs.

I have recently been appointed by my Bishop to the Eucharistic Ministry. Our local clergy have asked me to present information to the congregation on the modern approach to theology and understanding of the Bible.

Shalom

Ted:-6

actionfigurestepho · Post by **actionfigurestepho** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:54 pm

Raven wrote: Ted honey.....thats bollocks.

You discount absolutely everything that has to do with prophecy in that book! Yet you profess to believe in a risen Christ that was prophesied throughout. Yet you refuse to believe a single word he says!

Maybe one day, you'll really let Him speak to you.

Actually, Raven, not all Christians believe that Revelation is a literal account of the future. In fact, most of Christ's words were parables...why would Revelation be any different from most of the other books of the New Testament? I just re-read the intro to Revelation in my own Bible and it says that "For the most part the book consists of several series of revelations and visions presented in symbolic language that would have been understood by Christians of that day, but would have remained a mystery to all others." Because at the time Christians were being so widely persecuted they had to write things "symbolically" to keep them from being destroyed. A lot of earlier Christians used a code to determine who was a disciple and who wasn't. So was Revelation political? Was it a parable? Is there any way to know for sure? That's open to interpretation. (The reference was from the New English Version "The Good News" Bible, which is a liberal study Bible.)

There are a lot of different beliefs even among Christians...don't discount someone else's just because it's different from yours! You have your fundamentalists and your liberals and your literalists and your extremists and your "born agains" and your period scholars...you get the picture!

During the world wars people also thought it was the End--fire and armies apply to history since the dawn of time.

I guess I've always believed that it doesn't really matter...we're not supposed to know (the Bible says no one WILL know) and I trust that. Those of us who practice religions will be prepared in our own way for what we believe is coming. Will that make a difference whether it comes tomorrow at lunch or in one hundred years from now?

actionfigurestepho · Post by **actionfigurestepho** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:58 pm

Ted wrote:

Instead of trying to see everything in the Bible as historically true it is time to take the ancient Hebrews approach who were not concerned about "did it happen" but "what does it mean".

Yes! Thank you, Ted.

Isn't the message the same, regardless of whether it's a parable or a blow by blow account?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:12 pm

action:-6

That is a difficult one to answer because it depends on the context of the writing. One example would be Num. 31 where God apparently OK's war crimes. I do not believe for one moment this came from God.

Consider also the preliminaries before the Exodus. This loving God is going to kill every young child in all the homes of the Egyptians. This comes from the God who gave us the Great Commandment through Jesus? I don't think so. This loving God kills innocent children!? No, not at all.

Shalom

Ted:-6

actionfigurestepho · Post by **actionfigurestepho** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:59 am

Ted wrote: action:-6

That is a difficult one to answer because it depends on the context of the writing. One example would be Num. 31 where God apparently OK's war crimes. I do not believe for one moment this came from God.

Consider also the preliminaries before the Exodus. This loving God is going to kill every young child in all the homes of the Egyptians. This comes from the God who gave us the Great Commandment through Jesus? I don't think so. This loving God kills innocent children!? No, not at all.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ah, but you're citing Old Testamant. Jesus came in the New Testament and changed a thing or two. There's actually a verse that commanded the people to choose a law and live by it...the old or the new. I can't look it up right now because I'm off to dialysis but I can always slip it into a PM. Anyway, just what I was taught to believe and no one else has to:o. We do end up sticking closely to what we grew up believing, don't we? Most of the Christians I know use the NT as our Guide for Life although for some reason or other I do remember doing a lot of OT stories in Sunday School in second grade. Not sure why...although I guess there are a lot more "action" stories there.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:29 am

actionfigurestepho wrote: Actually, Raven, not all Christians believe that Revelation is a literal account of the future. In fact, most of Christ's words were parables...why would Revelation be any different from most of the other books of the New Testament? I just re-read the intro to Revelation in my own Bible and it says that "For the most part the book consists of several series of revelations and visions presented in symbolic language that would have been understood by Christians of that day, but would have remained a mystery to all others." Because at the time Christians were being so widely persecuted they had to write things "symbolically" to keep them from being destroyed. A lot of earlier Christians used a code to determine who was a disciple and who wasn't. So was Revelation political? Was it a parable? Is there any way to know for sure? That's open to interpretation. (The reference was from the New English Version "The Good News" Bible, which is a liberal study Bible.)

There are a lot of different beliefs even among Christians...don't discount someone else's just because it's different from yours! You have your fundamentalists and your liberals and your literalists and your extremists and your "born agains" and your period scholars...you get the picture!

During the world wars people also thought it was the End--fire and armies apply to history since the dawn of time.

I guess I've always believed that it doesn't really matter...we're not supposed to know (the Bible says no one WILL know) and I trust that. Those of us who practice religions will be prepared in our own way for what we believe is coming. Will that make a difference whether it comes tomorrow at lunch or in one hundred years from now?
Ted doesn't call Revelations symbolic. I think we all know it's symbolic. Ted called it completely untrue as a vision of the future; a lie; merely a political cartoon about a long-dead government.

robinseggs · Post by **robinseggs** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:16 am

This is so heavy folks!!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:20 am

Good excercise.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:59 am

Ted wrote: I offer the following only to show that I am not alone in any way in my beliefs.

I have recently been appointed by my Bishop to the Eucharistic Ministry. Our local clergy have asked me to present information to the congregation on the modern approach to theology and understanding of the Bible.

Shalom

Ted:-6
Ted, you are the perfect example of man setting himself up as being wiser than God. Lucifer did the same thing.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:10 am

actionfigurestepho wrote: Actually, Raven, not all Christians believe that Revelation is a literal account of the future. In fact, most of Christ's words were parables...why would Revelation be any different from most of the other books of the New Testament? I just re-read the intro to Revelation in my own Bible and it says that "For the most part the book consists of several series of revelations and visions presented in symbolic language that would have been understood by Christians of that day, but would have remained a mystery to all others." Because at the time Christians were being so widely persecuted they had to write things "symbolically" to keep them from being destroyed. A lot of earlier Christians used a code to determine who was a disciple and who wasn't. So was Revelation political? Was it a parable? Is there any way to know for sure? That's open to interpretation. (The reference was from the New English Version "The Good News" Bible, which is a liberal study Bible.)

There are a lot of different beliefs even among Christians...don't discount someone else's just because it's different from yours! You have your fundamentalists and your liberals and your literalists and your extremists and your "born agains" and your period scholars...you get the picture!

During the world wars people also thought it was the End--fire and armies apply to history since the dawn of time.

I guess I've always believed that it doesn't really matter...we're not supposed to know (the Bible says no one WILL know) and I trust that. Those of us who practice religions will be prepared in our own way for what we believe is coming. Will that make a difference whether it comes tomorrow at lunch or in one hundred years from now?
Theres no code to the bible. It was meant for all mankind to be able to understand. Where it's parable, you're told it's parable. Where it's a psalm, so you are told. When it's something you can take to your grave as the unshakable word of God, it always begins with a 'verily I say unto you' And when it's repeated twice as in 'verily, verily,' you had better pay attention!

The people of this time didnt just sneak up and suprise God. He knew us before we were here. His word is just as relevant, if not more so, to us. Why do you think it's in so many languages? There is only one copyright to it, and He owns it. And as far as I can tell, He never changes. Not then, not now.

No, no one knows the time or the day, but we were given signs to show us it was near. I'm seeing those signs all over the place. What more do people want? A billboard?

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:31 am

Ã¢â‚¬Å“But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangsÃ¢â‚¬. Matt. 24:8

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Birth pangsÃ¢â‚¬. I love the way Yeshua tells us to view the times. We look at what is going on and realize that it is just the beginning. Many would say the beginning of the end. Yeshua (Jesus) said it is the beginning of new life. DonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t birth pangs precede the deliverance of a child into a new world?

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:38 am

Clint honey......obviously you've never had a baby! The pain and agony the woman goes through for hours upon neverending hours is a forboding analogy to me! Very true, at the end, she is exhausted but satisfied.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:43 am

Raven wrote: Clint honey......obviously you've never had a baby! The pain and agony the woman goes through for hours upon neverending hours is a forboding analogy to me! Very true, at the end, she is exhausted but satisfied.
My point exactly. The birth is worth the agony.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:53 am

Typical male! It's the agony that worries me! Been there, did that and own TWO of those t-shirts!:yh_tong2

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:56 am

Raven wrote: Typical male! It's the agony that worries me! Been there, did that and own TWO of those t-shirts!:yh_tong2
So, you admit my view of this is more objective?:wah:

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:00 am

Not to change the subject, but have you noticed how israel is becoming more and more a walled in community? Just like the descriptions of it in prophesy?

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:25 am

I see a lot of things happening, including the walling of Jerusalem, that point to the beginning of birth pangs. I think we are in for a time like we canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t imagine. It is on people minds to the point they are distracted.

My Rabbi/Pastor and I have had to intentionally steer teaching toward the building of faith and acquisition of the tools necessary to deal with what is coming. There was so much attention being given to the, what if and when, that people were forgetting what our mission is supposed to be.

We are supposed to be aware of the season so we know whether or not we should be fallow, planting, growing or harvesting. I think we are moving toward the harvest where the wheat and chaff will be separated. It isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t my goal to avoid the season. It is my hope to have enough substance to keep the wind from blowing me and those my life touches away with the chaff. The only way to do that is to keep reinforcing my bond with the One who gives me substance through His life giving blood.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:56 am

You are wise beyond your years, mate. And I know who gave it to you.

I can see a time not too far off when Jerusalem will once again be encompassed about by her enemies.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not anxious about the time, but I still worry over souls. For I see the time is short. And it seems the world isnt paying attention anymore.

I think we are alot further along in the process than mere birth pangs. But I'm no expert. I cant help but feel we're in the warning zone. The preamble to judgement so to speak.