gmc;1224057 wrote: Nothing imo-I have no problem with that but many religious people will just as some find cremation repugnant. One other present day issue is if someone is carrying a donor card there should be no further need for consent from next of kin. (correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is next of kin are still required to give consent.) Many people object and will refuse consent regardless of what the deceased actually wanted. Wouldn't be a problem now but before I was married my next of kin was my mother who found the whole idea repugnant. Never mind my wishes she would have refused consent despite my making clear to her what I wanted.
I suppose there is the fear that some doctors will be tempted to be less than scrupulous in making the decision as to when someone is dead-especially if there additional money to be made. You are correct in what you say. Even though my wife has signed her organs away, they would still require my consent and i may be wrong, but i believe even her brothers could contest my consent. It is a grey area.
Why was he left to die?
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Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
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Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219912 wrote: China........ I was refering to this which made me ill when i read it.
China's hi-tech 'death van' where criminals are executed and then their organs are sold on black market | Mail Online
I've read the link. I thought there were crimes in England where you wanted the death penalty applied? Perhaps I'm mis-remembering.
In a country which uses the death penalty, though I'd argue they shouldn't, there's nothing else in the thread I find the slightest objection to. There's no national health provision in China, there's a huge problem getting organs donated for cultural reasons (the Chinese have a historical cultural insistence on the entire body being buried and ancestor veneration is central to their heritage) and the notion of reduced civil rights for criminals is common both to China and to the Western world.
China's hi-tech 'death van' where criminals are executed and then their organs are sold on black market | Mail Online
I've read the link. I thought there were crimes in England where you wanted the death penalty applied? Perhaps I'm mis-remembering.
In a country which uses the death penalty, though I'd argue they shouldn't, there's nothing else in the thread I find the slightest objection to. There's no national health provision in China, there's a huge problem getting organs donated for cultural reasons (the Chinese have a historical cultural insistence on the entire body being buried and ancestor veneration is central to their heritage) and the notion of reduced civil rights for criminals is common both to China and to the Western world.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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Why was he left to die?
spot;1224102 wrote: I've read the link. I thought there were crimes in England where you wanted the death penalty applied? Perhaps I'm mis-remembering.
In a country which uses the death penalty, though I'd argue they shouldn't, there's nothing else in the thread I find the slightest objection to. There's no national health provision in China, there's a huge problem getting organs donated for cultural reasons (the Chinese have a historical cultural insistence on the entire body being buried and ancestor veneration is central to their heritage) and the notion of reduced civil rights for criminals is common both to China and to the Western world. I agree with you over the shortage of organs in China but i was just repulsed by the clinical methods of harvesting them inside those vans.
In a country which uses the death penalty, though I'd argue they shouldn't, there's nothing else in the thread I find the slightest objection to. There's no national health provision in China, there's a huge problem getting organs donated for cultural reasons (the Chinese have a historical cultural insistence on the entire body being buried and ancestor veneration is central to their heritage) and the notion of reduced civil rights for criminals is common both to China and to the Western world. I agree with you over the shortage of organs in China but i was just repulsed by the clinical methods of harvesting them inside those vans.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1224122 wrote: I agree with you over the shortage of organs in China but i was just repulsed by the clinical methods of harvesting them inside those vans.
Clinical methods? How on earth do you think they're harvested in England other than clinically? It has to be fast, efficient and into ice quick wherever it's done. Taking the equipment to where it's needed is far cheaper than keeping a full set - together with the trained staff to operate it - on sites like those.
Clinical methods? How on earth do you think they're harvested in England other than clinically? It has to be fast, efficient and into ice quick wherever it's done. Taking the equipment to where it's needed is far cheaper than keeping a full set - together with the trained staff to operate it - on sites like those.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Why was he left to die?
spot;1224129 wrote: Clinical methods? How on earth do you think they're harvested in England other than clinically? It has to be fast, efficient and into ice quick wherever it's done. Taking the equipment to where it's needed is far cheaper than keeping a full set - together with the trained staff to operate it - on sites like those. I know your right but maybe it was the pic of the condemned man being led into the van that repulsed me. When you think of harvesting, i think of the body as dead, a shell of that person. The image in the link is of some-one very much alive when it was taken.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1224138 wrote: I know your right but maybe it was the pic of the condemned man being led into the van that repulsed me. When you think of harvesting, i think of the body as dead, a shell of that person. The image in the link is of some-one very much alive when it was taken.
And judicially executed by lethal injection minutes later. I'm sure there are equally offensive pictures of people in just that condition from US jails too. Fortunately there are none from the civilised world.
And judicially executed by lethal injection minutes later. I'm sure there are equally offensive pictures of people in just that condition from US jails too. Fortunately there are none from the civilised world.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Why was he left to die?
spot;1224193 wrote: And judicially executed by lethal injection minutes later. I'm sure there are equally offensive pictures of people in just that condition from US jails too. Fortunately there are none from the civilised world.
I wonder what the answer is to our lack of organ donors? Compulsary harvesting without permission i wonder?
I wonder what the answer is to our lack of organ donors? Compulsary harvesting without permission i wonder?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219431 wrote: Yes.
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
Well, you've just refused the 60 year old man because you presumed he'd lived enough of life. Who is qualified to decide that? At what age does one cease to have something to contribute to society? At what age do we say "Ok, step off, you had your time?"
Based on this, why not deny all those people you listed as well?
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
Well, you've just refused the 60 year old man because you presumed he'd lived enough of life. Who is qualified to decide that? At what age does one cease to have something to contribute to society? At what age do we say "Ok, step off, you had your time?"
Based on this, why not deny all those people you listed as well?
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RedGlitter
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Why was he left to die?
oscar;1224226 wrote: I wonder what the answer is to our lack of organ donors? Compulsary harvesting without permission i wonder?
I would say our answer is to rethink our notions of death and realize it for the natural, undeniable process that it is.
Compulsory organ donation?! *shudder!* One must maintain the right to say no and have that choice honored. Trampling over human rights like that would be the start of society's destruction, I think. It wouldn't end there.
I would say our answer is to rethink our notions of death and realize it for the natural, undeniable process that it is.
Compulsory organ donation?! *shudder!* One must maintain the right to say no and have that choice honored. Trampling over human rights like that would be the start of society's destruction, I think. It wouldn't end there.
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RedGlitter
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Why was he left to die?
spot;1223954 wrote: What's wrong with opt-out instead of opt-in?
It leaves too much room for sloppiness and error and presupposes that people will generally either forget to opt out or will otherwise fail to do so which is exactly what harvesters would hope for.
It leaves too much room for sloppiness and error and presupposes that people will generally either forget to opt out or will otherwise fail to do so which is exactly what harvesters would hope for.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
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Why was he left to die?
Monty Pythonb is, as usual, waaaay ahead of us....
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."