Canada's bus beheading man found not guilty

Post by **spot** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:40 am

Odie;1223150 wrote: [quote=spoy]Why do people get sent to jail, Odie?

Really. Serious question. I'm trying to work out how you can possibly think the way you post.oh c'mon Spot, really?[/QUOTE]Yes, really. This is one of the more important questions the world has to face and it's as simple as it can possibly be, I've no idea why you insist on dodging it. Why do people get sent to jail? What I see is your knee jerking, I don't see anything other than uninformed prejudice at work in any of your suggestions in this thread. Bite the bullet, Odie, give a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. Why do people get sent to jail?

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:32 am

minks;1223377 wrote: Let me see, here in Canada you get jail time for..... gosh gee murder, but if you are a creepy kind of murderer like Paul Bernardo, you get your own room hmmm just so nobody kills you in jail.

The justice system here in Canada is governed by a bunch of freakin bleeding hearts. It's quite sick.

Ing, yes mister Ing, he is here from the USA he robs a department store, he shoots a security guard in the hand. He goes to Jail.... he is held here in freakin Calgary because The Canadian justice system says "he can't go back to the USA he will face the death penalty"..... why you ask? Because he and some dude named Lake allegedly killed 11 or so people in California.....

Yah Canada, let our tax dollars go towards saving the likes of Ing.... later Ing was released to the USA and eventually he killed his self.:-5

Ok but if you have some pot on ya, you face jail time. Hmmmmmmm interesting.

Just my opinions.

Paul Bernardo should have been hanged by his you know whats.

and I am sure he has own tv.... just like Karla did.:sneaky:

to do the things she did........and be out of jail just because of an agreement?

I keep wondering why no one here has knocked her off yet!

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:38 am

spot;1223432 wrote: Yes, really. This is one of the more important questions the world has to face and it's as simple as it can possibly be, I've no idea why you insist on dodging it. Why do people get sent to jail? What I see is your knee jerking, I don't see anything other than uninformed prejudice at work in any of your suggestions in this thread. Bite the bullet, Odie, give a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. Why do people get sent to jail?

people get sent to jail for the crimes they commit..

..how much simplier does it get?

you are the only one here that disagrees on the decision they made, becasue they claimed him insane..

...so this give him a right to just seek help?

hell, I can kill someone and claim insanity to.

and this guy is getting better......wait until he gets out.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:01 pm

Odie;1223457 wrote: people get sent to jail for the crimes they commit..

..how much simplier does it get?

you are the only one here that disagrees on the decision they made, becasue they claimed him insane..

...so this give him a right to just seek help?

hell, I can kill someone and claim insanity to.

and this guy is getting better......wait until he gets out.

yep murder is murder, weather you are insane or not....

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:29 pm

Odie;1223457 wrote: you are the only one here that disagrees on the decision they made, becasue they claimed him insane.. lips:

Not sure who you're talking to, but they're not the only one. If they're loony, then it *is* different.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:30 pm

minks;1223502 wrote: yep murder is murder, weather you are insane or not....

Quite. If you're insane, it *may* not be murder.

Post by **spot** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:04 pm

Odie;1223457 wrote: people get sent to jail for the crimes they commit..

..how much simplier does it get?

you are the only one here that disagrees on the decision they made, becasue they claimed him insane..

...so this give him a right to just seek help?

hell, I can kill someone and claim insanity to.

and this guy is getting better......wait until he gets out.

minks;1223502 wrote: yep murder is murder, weather you are insane or not....

It's odd that the verdict is not guilty by reason of insanity then, don't you think? On the one hand you have the entire legal system making quite clear the nature of mental responsibility defining the criminality of an act, and on the other there's the prejudice this thread's displaying.

Insanity defense provides a fair background to what we're discussing.

Odie, you wrote "people get sent to jail for the crimes they commit". Why do they get sent to jail for the crimes they commit? What's the reason for sending them to jail for the crimes they commit? Dig a little deeper, try to explain what you think it's for.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:06 pm

spot;1223517 wrote: It's odd that the verdict is not guilty by reason of insanity then, don't you think? On the one hand you have the entire legal system making quite clear the nature of mental responsibility defining the criminality of an act, and on the other there's the prejudice this thread's displaying.

Insanity defense provides a fair background to what we're discussing.

Odie, you wrote "people get sent to jail for the crimes they commit". Why do they get sent to jail for the crimes they commit? What's the reason for sending them to jail for the crimes they commit? Dig a little deeper, try to explain what you think it's for.

not playing your games.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:04 pm

spot;1223517 wrote: It's odd that the verdict is not guilty by reason of insanity then, don't you think? On the one hand you have the entire legal system making quite clear the nature of mental responsibility defining the criminality of an act, and on the other there's the prejudice this thread's displaying.

Insanity defense provides a fair background to what we're discussing.

Odie, you wrote "people get sent to jail for the crimes they commit". Why do they get sent to jail for the crimes they commit? What's the reason for sending them to jail for the crimes they commit? Dig a little deeper, try to explain what you think it's for.

Sane people go to jail for crimes they commit as a punishment, insane people do not, the reason being:

'The insanity defense is based on evaluations by forensic professionals that the defendant was incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong at the time of the offense.' (Insanity defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Therefore, you cannot punish an insane person for something they do not even comprehend was wrong in the first place!

The guy had a long history of mental illness, he is not getting off on a claim of 'temporary' insanity and getting away with murder as some would like to think.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:14 pm

Betty Boop;1223589 wrote: Sane people go to jail for crimes they commit as a punishment, insane people do not, the reason being:

'The insanity defense is based on evaluations by forensic professionals that the defendant was incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong at the time of the offense.' (Insanity defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Therefore, you cannot punish an insane person for something they do not even comprehend was wrong in the first place!

The guy had a long history of mental illness, he is not getting off on a claim of 'temporary' insanity and getting away with murder as some would like to think.

they knew this and on one helped him before he committed this hideous crime.

after only one year, he is doing much better.......what about his victims's family etc.?

Post by **Betty Boop** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:23 pm

Odie;1223592 wrote: they knew this and on one helped him before he committed this hideous crime.

after only one year, he is doing much better.......what about his victims's family etc.?

Then shame on them for not doing anything sooner, as is evident the schizophrenic is responding well to the correct treatment at last.

His victims family, I feel for them for sure, it was a truly horrific way to lose a relative, they should be holding the mental health team (or whatever your equivalent is) accountable.

Post by **spot** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:44 am

Odie;1223526 wrote: not playing your games.

I'd put that down to a lack of reason on your part then. Why do people get sent to jail?

In some few cases it's a deterrent - Bernie Madoff is in jail for life after destroying $50 billion of investments while syphoning off the cream for his own use. Without that sort of threat far more investment consultants would steal client cash.

In some cases it's to protect the public from people who continue to pose a danger to life or property. That covers far less than half the jail population in the Western world.

It's also to put criminals in an environment where their behaviour can be modified by training so that they pose less risk of criminal activity in future. The extent of such training is sadly minimal.

What it's not for is to exact revenge which is all your posts in this thread have been demanding.

In the case the thread's focused on there's been no crime at all, nobody's been found guilty, nobody's offended against the law. The thread's discussing someone who was ill, who wasn't medically treated in a way which would have prevented the death and who's now being given the medical intervention he needs. Raging for his killing by the state, or by any "virtuous" passer-by, says a lot more about your own puerile ill-considered values than it does about either the law or the man being treated.

Why would you not jail everyone convicted of a crime? Why would you ever release them at all? Why would you not want to see the state kill everyone who gets a conviction?

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:50 am

Betty Boop;1223598 wrote: Then shame on them for not doing anything sooner, as is evident the schizophrenic is responding well to the correct treatment at last.

His victims family, I feel for them for sure, it was a truly horrific way to lose a relative, they should be holding the mental health team (or whatever your equivalent is) accountable.

a schizophrenic should have been treated, I agree!

someone has to be held accountable, as this crime was just to hideous to be left.....

as he is getting better so quickly.....he should be held responsible.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:29 am

I know of a guy who is schizophrenic. As long as he takes his medication, he is fine. Unfortunately, he doesn't always take it due to lack of money, screwed up priorities, etc. I can't understand why he would not take it seeing what he puts hisself through every time. So this guy is responding well to treatment? Once he is released into society, how long will they monitor him? How will they know he is taking his medication? Will he actually be monitored or will he fall through the cracks of the system? Was he diagnosed as schizophrenic before he murdered?

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:01 am

Odie;1223690 wrote: a schizophrenic should have been treated, I agree!

someone has to be held accountable, as this crime was just to hideous to be left.....

as he is getting better so quickly.....he should be held responsible.

No, he is not accountable, he was not aware of the crime he committed, he did not know right from wrong because he was insane.

The people to be held accountable are the doctors, mental health team etc.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:26 am

Betty Boop;1223704 wrote: No, he is not accountable, he was not aware of the crime he committed, he did not know right from wrong because he was insane.

The people to be held accountable are the doctors, mental health team etc.

it was his fault, he is accountable:

Li was admitted to a mental hospital in 2005, where he was diagnosed with schizophrenia, according to court testimony.

Doctors identified his auditory hallucinations and offered him medication, but he declined treatment at the time.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:07 pm

Odie;1223713 wrote: it was his fault, he is accountable:

Li was admitted to a mental hospital in 2005, where he was diagnosed with schizophrenia, according to court testimony.

Doctors identified his auditory hallucinations and offered him medication, but he declined treatment at the time.

He is and was a schizophrenic then Odie, he cannot be held accountable as he is mentally insane.

So.... the people that are accountable are the ones that deemed 'care in the community' to be the best case scenario for these patients as opposed to sectioning them. I would imagine that your mental health teams over there have their hands tied as far as involuntary hospitalization goes, they cannot hold someone and force medication until that person becomes a danger to themselves or others.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:24 am

If anyone's still paying attention, Vince Li has now been released.

Baker was initially kept in a secure wing of a psychiatric hospital but was given more freedom every year. He has been living on his own in a Winnipeg apartment since November, but was still subject to monitoring to ensure he took his medication.

Baker’s doctor, Jeffrey Waldman, told the board earlier this week that he is confident Baker will remain on his medication and will continue to work with his treatment team if released. Waldman testified Baker knows it is the medication that keeps his illness at bay.

In a written decision the review board said it “is of the opinion that the weight of evidence does not substantiate that Mr Baker poses a significant threat to the safety of the public.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... upervision

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:11 am

So, if he decides to stop taking his meds, and then goes off again, can he then be held responsible for the consequences?

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:50 am

LarsMac;1506589 wrote: So, if he decides to stop taking his meds, and then goes off again, can he then be held responsible for the consequences?

I'm sure he can. He now has good reason to understand the potential consequence of making such a choice. I think they'd need to bring him back to sound mind and then charge him for his reckless endangerment of others, and I think they should do that regardless of whether or not he attacks anyone while psychotic.