How Great is the Darkness.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:26 am

One of my most frustrating experiences in my life has been the way God has ignored my request to him to have a relationship with him. His refusal to give me his Spirit, and the way he has left me to the Darkness. This has been regretable, but yet true in my experience with God. The reason I do not know God, is because of the Darkness. I didn't even know what the Darkness was until a few years ago. Last year I was able to see it as it is, and only this year was I able to admit that my life is envolped by it. It is very, very hard to come to the point of knowing that you are in the Darkness, and that you can do nothing about it.

In Matthews 6:23, Jesus makes an interesting observation;"But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of the Darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is Darkness, How Great is the Darkness!" By this he meant that we are led by the " Light in our Minds", or the leading influence that we follow." So if the leading influence in your mind is the Darkness, then although it sounds contridictionary, the Darkness is your Light. Its what is leading you. He then states;" How Great is the Darkness! And believe me, this Darkness is indeed Great. Its a Great powerful influence.

And I want to give an inside out view of this Darkness.

Peace.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:40 am

That my friend is a great insight.

Im hesitant to add to it because its honesty is painful but beautiful.

Ask yourself if your mind and heart are truly open.

Are you looking in the right places ?

Perhaps God is all around you now ?

Perhaps you have pre-concieved notions and expectations that are getting in your way ?

Perhaps Gods beauty has already manifested itself and its yours for the taking, take a good look around you.

Those amazing pictures you post....

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:00 am

I once wrote about " Living without God", which I now understand was part of the beginning of admitting that I live in the Darkness. Much of religion takes a trainned hypicritcal stance in explainning their relationship with God. People make all kinds of claims, mostly to satisfy themselves and others view of them. And thats why most people look in a mirror: to satisfy themselves in the way that they want to look, and to prepare themselves for others to look at them. And relationship with God has morphed into this external pacification of self. People can look right into this mirror, and be so blind that they either cannot see whats really there, or cannot accept what they see, and forget what they saw as soon as they walk away. Because the Darkness has blinded them.

Again Jesus in John 12:35;" For a little while longer the light is amoung you, walk while you have the light, that Darkness may not overtake you; he who walks in the Darkness does not know where he goes." This Darkness is so Great that it " Overtakes people", its a total eclipse of the Mind. This Darkness has had me all of my life, and it has not released me. Its very, VERY, deceptive. Its a mind bender for sure.

Human consciousness is both a blessing and a curse. A duality of the hotbed mixture of good and evil. I have been forced to consider good, or God, from a " surrounding of evil in my life." My atmosphere has been the Darkness. Its always been there, at every turn rotting my successes, kicking me down just as things seem to be comming together. Taking things from me, keeping me from getting things, constantly reafirming its lordship over my life. Teaching me the nature of addiction, showing me the lack of control, pestering me even in my sleep, opening me to its evil seductive powers. Unmerciful, unrelenting, even to the point that it becomes repitition, leaving readable patterns as it grooves out the pain in my past and present. Forcing my memory to reconize the hurt, and like a vicious cycle, it does it over, and over and over again. Seems like one should be able to escape, to learn it and overcome it. And then you think to yourself, if only I had just a little more strength, just a little more self control, some kind of power from somewhere to get me over this hump. If only God would help, then you have to admit that your on your own.

You against this humoungus monster , this Darkness.

Peace.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:00 am

Im a bottom line kind of guy. Hope its ok if I just speak my mind.

In your last reply it appeared to be filled with circumstances that happened to you. It gives me the sense that you feel you have no control over the events of your life.

I understand that feeling as I too spent most of my life indulging in the same.

I wont preach to you but I think its ok to relate my perspective as I come from a similar state of mind.

Im in the evolutional process of releasing myself fom the burden of external events and coming to the realization that yes we are responsible for our own condition.

Yes events beyond our control happen to us that effect our lives.

Those are challenges that can be viewed as curses or gifts. In other words how you choose to percieve them is of your own making.

Its perfectly normal to react a certain way to negativity, but it doesnt have to be. You have an opportunity to use the event as a tool to learn from. If you are willing it can be a stepping stone to another higher level of self.

Each step you take makes you stronger. When youre stronger you can adapt more easily. Its an example of manipulating circumstances to benefit your well being. It snowballs into becoming more whole as a human and one of the effects is being able to recognize the way you did things will always get you what you got. Theres a bigger picture at hand than your minds cage.

Free yourself by acting strongly and with purpose.

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:21 am

Mickiel;1220116 wrote: One of my most frustrating experiences in my life has been the way God has ignored my request to him to have a relationship with him.

How do you know God has ignored your request; could it be that you have ignored Him?

Mickiel;1220116 wrote:

His refusal to give me his Spirit, and the way he has left me to the Darkness. This has been regretable, but yet true in my experience with God.

Perhaps God is speaking to you through His Spirit, but you are not listening. Have you devoted your life to serving God?

Mickiel;1220116 wrote:

The reason I do not know God, is because of the Darkness. I didn't even know what the Darkness was until a few years ago. Last year I was able to see it as it is, and only this year was I able to admit that my life is envolped by it. It is very, very hard to come to the point of knowing that you are in the Darkness, and that you can do nothing about it.

Explain what you mean about not knowing God because of the Darkness. What darkness are you talking about. Without specifics I cannot respond.

Mickiel;1220116 wrote:

In Matthews 6:23, Jesus makes an interesting observation;"But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of the Darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is Darkness, How Great is the Darkness!" By this he meant that we are led by the " Light in our Minds", or the leading influence that we follow." So if the leading influence in your mind is the Darkness, then although it sounds contridictionary, the Darkness is your Light. Its what is leading you. He then states;" How Great is the Darkness! And believe me, this Darkness is indeed Great. Its a Great powerful influence.

And I want to give an inside out view of this Darkness.

Peace.

Put Matthew 6:23 in context.

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

What is Jesus saying to us?

Spiritual vision is our capacity to see clearly what God wants us to do and to see the world from His point of view. Our spiritual insight can be clouded. Our self-serving desires, interests nd goals block tht vision. Serving God is the best way to restore it. We must be fixed on God.

I think verses 22 and 23 are saying that we must be generous and not stingy -- serve others and by doing so, you will be serving God.

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:28 am

Mickiel;1220151 wrote:

Again Jesus in John 12:35;" For a little while longer the light is amoung you, walk while you have the light, that Darkness may not overtake you; he who walks in the Darkness does not know where he goes."

Jesus said He would be with them in person for only a short time and they should take advantage of His presence while they had it.

Jesus is the light shining in a dark place.

Jesus poins out the way we should walk.

If we walk in Jesus' light we will become children of the light, revealing the truth and point people to God.

Christians are Christ's light bearers.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:08 am

Jesus walked this earth some 33 years and the powers of the Darkness never touched him. Never effected him, but that changed one day after Judas betrayed him. Jesus was soon arrested and again made an interesting reference to the power of the Darkness in Luke 22:53;"While I was with you daily in the Temple, you could not lay hands on me; But this hour the Power of the Darkness are Yours." I know many will be making their comments on this Post, but Jesus comments are where I gather my truth from. All his Life the Power of the Darkness couldnot touch him, but that particular hour, it was allowed to deal with him, and it killed him soon after.

The Power of the Darkness was given over to these men, and that resulted in the Son of God being killed. Now if the Power of the Darkness can kill the Son of God, explain to me what chance a human has against it. I mean if God does not intervene, and in Jesus case he didnot, we are no match for that Power. Now one can think as righteous and as Spiritual as they wish, no human being is a match for the Darkness. If it can kill Christ, your little righteousness is nothing against it. I just wanted to say that before the flood of righteous postings continues.

Satan will sift us like wheat, if God does not contain him. He is a murderer and we are no match for him. But if he already has you deceived, hes not concerned with your righteous aittitude. Hes already got you, by using your righteousness to deceive you.

In Revelations 12:9 he is described as " The GREAT Dragon", the " Serpent of OLD", the " Devil and Satan", it then states that he has " Deceived the WHOLE World." Now no matter how righteous people believe and think, the bible does not exclude anyone from this deception. From this Great Power of this thing that is Old and Deceptive.

But who Put this thing in Power?

And I want to give the surprising answer to that.

Peace.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:45 am

Jesus called the Devil " The Ruler of this world." You can see that in John 12:31, 14:30, and 16:11. Thats what the Devil is, the Ruler, the undisputed ruler of all the earth. By this we can know that the Darkness really rules this world. The bible even goes as far as proclaiming satan " The god of this World." It gives him that status and Power. Now thats a very powerful status. In Eph. 2:2 this thing is called " The Prince of the Power of the Air." Now Gods word is calling him a Prince, and comparing his Power to the very Air we all must breathe in order to survive.

This is how much Power this thing has, its influence is like the Air, its everywhere, and cannot be avoided.

But let me show you why the bible says this thing is so Powerful, and who gave it this Power. Which also explained to me why I cannot break loose from its Power.

Peace.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:55 am

When something displays great Power, I usually suspect that another Great Power is behind it. This is why I reject the concept of evolution, or Great Power comming from no Power. It just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Power begats Power. Great things come from Great things. And this great Dragon, this Prince of Darkness, came from a Power Greater than him. In Gen. 2:9 God " Caused" meaning he created, a tree with the Knowledge of good and evil to " Grow."

This is the orgin of evil being placed on earth. Then in chapter 3:1 it reveals that God had " Made" a beast, or a Serpent, which is the same Serpent in Rev. 12:9, and that he had made him more crafty, or more intelligent and deceptive, than any other being he had made, and at this point he had already made humans. Isaiah 54:16 shows that God created this thing to destroy and ruin, and to deceive. This is WHY the Power of Darkness is so Great, because God is behind it.

This is WHY satan is as powerful as he is. Its WHY the Darkness rules over the earth. In Genesis 3:1, this thing is introduced to Adam and Eve, and this young couple had ABSOLUTELY no chance whatsoever to defeat satan, and God knew that. But God did absolutely NOTHING to stop it. He did nothing to stop Jesus from being killed, and hes doing nothing to stop the Darkness from ruling this planet! And the reason why is being misunderstood.

In Gen. 3:1, Darkness begins its assualt on humanity, just 13 verses later God pronounces a curse on the Serpent, a curse on the Man, a curse on the Woman and a curse on the earth. And none of these curses have been lifted, which is one reason why a human cannot get out of the Darkness on their own. Conversely it is also the reason why the Darkness rules over this earth in Power.

Peace.

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:09 pm

Mickiel;1220263 wrote: Jesus walked this earth some 33 years and the powers of the Darkness never touched him. Never effected him, but that changed one day after Judas betrayed him. Jesus was soon arrested and again made an interesting reference to the power of the Darkness in Luke 22:53;"While I was with you daily in the Temple, you could not lay hands on me; But this hour the Power of the Darkness are Yours." I know many will be making their comments on this Post, but Jesus comments are where I gather my truth from. All his Life the Power of the Darkness couldnot touch him, but that particular hour, it was allowed to deal with him, and it killed him soon after.

The Power of the Darkness was given over to these men, and that resulted in the Son of God being killed. Now if the Power of the Darkness can kill the Son of God, explain to me what chance a human has against it. I mean if God does not intervene, and in Jesus case he didnot, we are no match for that Power. Now one can think as righteous and as Spiritual as they wish, no human being is a match for the Darkness. If it can kill Christ, your little righteousness is nothing against it. I just wanted to say that before the flood of righteous postings continues.

Satan will sift us like wheat, if God does not contain him. He is a murderer and we are no match for him. But if he already has you deceived, hes not concerned with your righteous aittitude. Hes already got you, by using your righteousness to deceive you.

In Revelations 12:9 he is described as " The GREAT Dragon", the " Serpent of OLD", the " Devil and Satan", it then states that he has " Deceived the WHOLE World." Now no matter how righteous people believe and think, the bible does not exclude anyone from this deception. From this Great Power of this thing that is Old and Deceptive.

But who Put this thing in Power?

And I want to give the surprising answer to that.

Peace.

But Jesus rose from the dead. Who had the most power -- Satan or God -- God, of course.

Satan has no power over me because I have faith in the Messiah and accept His work on the cross.

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:11 pm

Mickiel;1220310 wrote: Jesus called the Devil " The Ruler of this world." You can see that in John 12:31, 14:30, and 16:11. Thats what the Devil is, the Ruler, the undisputed ruler of all the earth. By this we can know that the Darkness really rules this world. The bible even goes as far as proclaiming satan " The god of this World." It gives him that status and Power. Now thats a very powerful status. In Eph. 2:2 this thing is called " The Prince of the Power of the Air." Now Gods word is calling him a Prince, and comparing his Power to the very Air we all must breathe in order to survive.

This is how much Power this thing has, its influence is like the Air, its everywhere, and cannot be avoided.

But let me show you why the bible says this thing is so Powerful, and who gave it this Power. Which also explained to me why I cannot break loose from its Power.

Peace.

I belong to the kingdom not of this world, so the prince of THIS world, has no hold on me.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:58 pm

Samuel;1220377 wrote: I belong to the kingdom not of this world, so the prince of THIS world, has no hold on me.

Well good for you, you are very fortunate indeed. But not me, I do not belong to Gods Kingdom and I am subject to satan. I don't like that, but its just how it is for now. I don't know how to force Gods hand, I can't make God do anything, I don't know how to manipulate him into setting me free. So I accept what he has done to me, and I am honest about it.

I'm stuck in this Darkness, so I may as well learn about it while I am imprisioned.

Peace.

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:04 pm

Mickiel;1220530 wrote: Well good for you, you are very fortunate indeed. But not me, I do not belong to Gods Kingdom and I am subject to satan. I don't like that, but its just how it is for now. I don't know how to force Gods hand, I can't make God do anything, I don't know how to manipulate him into setting me free. So I accept what he has done to me, and I am honest about it.

I'm stuck in this Darkness, so I may as well learn about it while I am imprisioned.

Peace.

Maybe you should stop trying to make God do what you want Him to do and do what He wants you to do.

Perhaps that is the place to start and perhaps when you do you will no longer be in darkness.

Frankly, Mickiel, when I read your first post, I thought you were in depression. Was I wrong?

I wish you well.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:41 pm

Samuel;1220534 wrote: Maybe you should stop trying to make God do what you want Him to do and do what He wants you to do.

Perhaps that is the place to start and perhaps when you do you will no longer be in darkness.

Frankly, Mickiel, when I read your first post, I thought you were in depression. Was I wrong?

I wish you well.

Oh no, I am alright, because I know and understand my place God has me in. I am not a King before my time. I am in bondage, still in the flesh, and still subject to the ruler of this world. My identity is not confused, my heritage is not threatened. I have no need to lie about what I am, no need to live in an elaborate illusion.

I am a sinner who has not met his true God, only the god of this world. I am carnal, sold into sin. Why me saying these things would make a christian inscure, I have an ideal, but it matters little to me who is threatened by my situation. I get depressed from time to time, I am not immune to depression. I just understand what it is like to live without God, and I am explaining it. I am expressing what it is like to be in this Great Darkness.

Its truly a situation that could not only cause depression, but maddness. 1John 1:5 says that God is Light and that there is no Darkness in him. I am not like God, there is Darkness within me. An evil streak that manifest itself whenever it wishes. I better understand Paul when he said he does things that he does not want to do in Romans 7. He said it is no longer he that is doing it, but the sin that is in him. I understand that, because sin lives in me.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:42 am

Do you really think that the great and powerful God is just sitting up there every day taking request after request from us little self indulged race of an insignificant species within this massive universe?

If you are anyway lucky you have about 70, maybe 80 years on this little blue planet, you should get out there as enjoy it. God created this world, have you seen any of it? You want to show that you love your God? Go tour and see his magnificent work and see what he created. Live the life he/she gave you and stop putting so many demands on God about the things that you want.

There can be no light without darkness, so stop looking into the darkness and look into the light.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:29 am

mikeinie;1220677 wrote: Do you really think that the great and powerful God is just sitting up there every day taking request after request from us little self indulged race of an insignificant species within this massive universe?

If you are anyway lucky you have about 70, maybe 80 years on this little blue planet, you should get out there as enjoy it. God created this world, have you seen any of it? You want to show that you love your God? Go tour and see his magnificent work and see what he created. Live the life he/she gave you and stop putting so many demands on God about the things that you want.

There can be no light without darkness, so stop looking into the darkness and look into the light.

I don't know you, I have not asked for your advice, I don't know why you are compelled to give it. I do not adhere to the party tonight because tommorrow we die mentality. There is no wisdom in such reckless abandon, other than to feed the senses. You know nothing of me, and I am not inclinded to share myself with you.

'But I will share what it is like to be in the Darkness.

Peace.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:15 am

Mickiel;1220699 wrote: I don't know you, I have not asked for your advice, I don't know why you are compelled to give it. I do not adhere to the party tonight because tommorrow we die mentality. There is no wisdom in such reckless abandon, other than to feed the senses. You know nothing of me, and I am not inclinded to share myself with you.

'But I will share what it is like to be in the Darkness.

Peace.

If God is our Father, then are you not my brother? Surely you must know your brother. As we are create in our father's image, are we not the same?

‘Other than to feed the senses’ is this wrong? God gave us 5 senses, so surely they must have been deemed important to him/her.

Leave the darkeness brother and I enjoy the light with me.

Peace to you as well

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:52 am

mikeinie;1220727 wrote: If God is our Father, then are you not my brother? Surely you must know your brother. As we are create in our father's image, are we not the same?

‘Other than to feed the senses’ is this wrong? God gave us 5 senses, so surely they must have been deemed important to him/her.

Leave the darkeness brother and I enjoy the light with me.

Peace to you as well

I don't know you, nor do I have a desire to know you. What you do with your senses is your business, I have no desire to share anything with you and your light. How you seem to think is of no attraction to me. I didnot know you yesterday, and I will not know you tommorrow.

Enjoy yourself. I have no quarrell with your joy.

And you have nothing to do with my situation, I do not need your understanding of it, and my life does not need your endorsement.

So Peace to you as well on your journey.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:54 am

Mickiel;1220796 wrote: I don't know you, nor do I have a desire to know you. What you do with your senses is your business, I have no desire to share anything with you and your light. How you seem to think is of no attraction to me. I didnot know you yesterday, and I will not know you tommorrow.

Enjoy yourself. I have no quarrell with your joy.

And you have nothing to do with my situation, I do not need your understanding of it, and my life does not need your endorsement.

So Peace to you as well on your journey.

So why post for the world to see? I was only joining in your conversation that you started. I now see and understand why you are in darkness.

I no longer have any interest in understanding your situation, and most certainly was not trying to endorse your life.

Enjoy your solitude. In the future I will not even read anything you post.

Peace to you too, (if you in fact know the meaning of the word).

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:56 am

[QUOTE=mikeinie;1220831.

Enjoy your solitude. In the future I will not even read anything you post.

Peace to you too, (if you in fact know the meaning of the word).

Thank you very much, Now I am more at Peace.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:46 pm

Romans 7 is a good study. Paul was going through some serious changes, but he was chosen and converted, I am no such thing. But I still can relate to sin having its way with you. You got all these pristine christians walking around here as if they are sinless, makes a sinner like me think that the standards of being a believer are just too high to reach. But I don't base repentance on christian example or belief, I base it on Gods goodness. Romans 2:4 shows that the Goodness and Kindness of God is what leads people to repent, not this hell message christians are trying to intimidate sinners with.

Living in the Darkness I am aquainted with sin and evil, I can see it not just in myself, but in others, often when they themselves act as if they cannot see it. Really its just that they don't want to see it. In Rom. 7:14 Paul said I am of the Flesh, " Sold into bondage to sin." Well that is plain, we are sold into sins bondage ( of course this excludes those who feel themselves free). Sold, and made a slave. Which means humanity is bound, but who sold humanity into sin? Back to Romans 11:32;" For GOD has shut up all men in disobedience." Hey listen, it was God who did this, and only God can undo it. And he has started sins undoing already through Christ death.

But I want to go into the trap of the Darkness.

Peace.

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:21 am

Mickiel;1221010 wrote: Romans 7 is a good study. Paul was going through some serious changes, but he was chosen and converted, I am no such thing. But I still can relate to sin having its way with you. You got all these pristine christians walking around here as if they are sinless, makes a sinner like me think that the standards of being a believer are just too high to reach. But I don't base repentance on christian example or belief, I base it on Gods goodness. Romans 2:4 shows that the Goodness and Kindness of God is what leads people to repent, not this hell message christians are trying to intimidate sinners with.

Living in the Darkness I am aquainted with sin and evil, I can see it not just in myself, but in others, often when they themselves act as if they cannot see it. Really its just that they don't want to see it. In Rom. 7:14 Paul said I am of the Flesh, " Sold into bondage to sin." Well that is plain, we are sold into sins bondage ( of course this excludes those who feel themselves free). Sold, and made a slave. Which means humanity is bound, but who sold humanity into sin? Back to Romans 11:32;" For GOD has shut up all men in disobedience." Hey listen, it was God who did this, and only God can undo it. And he has started sins undoing already through Christ death.

But I want to go into the trap of the Darkness.

Peace.

I don't know of any Christian who does not believe he is a sinner. All of us are tempted by sin and we can never measure up to the goodness of God.

If we could be as good as God, then He would have had no reason to send Jesus and Jesus need not have died for us.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:20 am

The Darkness is so Great, so strong, it is impossible for human will or choice or belief to pull you out of its grip. This is why I believe free will to be christian crap. The Darkness is more powerful than human choice, you can choose Jesus all you want, if God does not pull you out of the Darkness, your just going to be a believer than lives in the Darkness. Notice again Jesus in John 6:44, and remember its better to listen to Jesus than to listen to a christian; " No ONE can COME to me, ( or escape the Darkness) unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him." Draw, or pull you out of it. This is the only Jesus spoken way for a human to be converted, it has nothing to do with the humans choice, the humans will, the humans faith, the humans strength, how " good" the human is or how " bad" they are, its all on God the Father. Salvation is based on God alone, but christians would have you think its based on your human performance, because they view themselves as being so righteous, that they leave God no choice but to call them. So they turn Salvation into a call of the righteous, instead of a call of sinner to repentance.

Again Jesus in Matt. 9:13;" Go and LEARN what this means; I desire Compassion and not sacrifice; I DIDNOT come to call the Righteous, but I came for the Sinners." This is Jesus expressed mission, he came to earth to get the unbelievers. His salvation is for sinners. Who is a sinner? ALL have sinned,thus his Salvation is for ALL! Now christians will tell you its ONLY for those who choose it, or those who live their lives " good enough". Or those who supposedly come out of the Darkness by their sheer will. No, no! Jesus didNOT teach that salvation is only for believers, christians teach that. christians didnot make the supreme sacrifice, Christ did, he is the Lord of Salvation, not any group who profess to follow him. But the Darkness has purposely clouded this issue. christians are running around teaching their own interpitation of the Light, not knowing they are enveloped by the Darkness. And this is WHY their light has failed to convert humanity.

And I want to go into how the Darkness can make you see things that are not.

Peace.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:44 am

In the later part of 1John 2:11 it talks about why people are blind to the truth, because the Darkness has blinded them. I no longer ask myself why I do not understand the truth, the bible, the secret things of God , its because of this Darkness. This power is the power of deception and blindness. One of the most egotistical ways of thinking that exist in human nature, is the belief that we are not deceived, the arrogance that we cannot be blinded, the gall of thinking that God himself is leading us. Like an unsuspected acid rain, the Darkness has covered this earth, and its inhabitants don't even know it.

And satan has religion up front leading his assualt on keeping his grip unknown.

Peace.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:37 am

The Darkness is run by satan and his demons, and they are not ignorant. In James 2:19, it says that demons believe in God and fear him. Read it, its right there to see. Now understand, they believe, because God created them and they have more insight to God than humans do. Although demons are the arcitech of Atheism, or humans who do not believe, they themselves believe. They just do not " Agree with God." Unbelief is only " A human thing", its not a demon thing, its a demonic tactic imposed upon humans.

demons defintely believe in God, they KNOW he exist, their job is to place doubt on that within humanity. And that basically is the relationship demons have with humanity, to distort and deceive, in and by any means nescersary. In my relationship with them, I can see this aittitude that they have. I think they already know they can't win, so they seek to " Spoil and disrupt", and that is their existence. Any being who has been allowed to know some of Gods Power, like they have, will know that God cannot be defeated. So the Darkness is not " At War with God", it is in disagreement with him. They believe we should be free to be evil and sinful, and are stressing that point heavily to mankind. They are more into free will than God is.

What God is showing is the ultimate result of freely doing evil. And that result is always destruction.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:37 pm

Now its hard to pass judgement now as to the complette results of evil, because evil is dominant now. It just masks its dominance, in me and you. It does not want you to know that you live under it. It wants you to go on thinking like you do, unaware of its dominance. 1Corinth. 4:5;" Therefore do not go on passing judgement before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the Darkness and disclose the motives of mens hearts."

The Darkness hides itself, God hides himself, Jesus is not here, and the Holy Spirit is rare, so humanity is just destined to have a hard time of it. And I will get back to this later, because its important , but its a Godly design.

The Darkness has the power to mask itself, even in the Heart of the person being deceived and engulfed by it. It has done this to me. For years the Darkness had me in an illusion that I was being called by God and was Special. Oh how the human heart loves to think that. This is a favorite, strong powerful tactic of the Darkness. Appeal directly to the human ego and desire, give it what it wants, and leave it in that illusion all of its life. Like a baby being pacified, this human will be no more threat to the Darkness the rest of its life. Just rub it, pacify it, stroke its ego over and over and over again.

Give the Atheist what it wants, the believer what it wants, get them in the corner of their own little world, and lock them there in peace. This is the Power of the Darkness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

sharedfastlane · Post by **sharedfastlane** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:06 am

I agree there is plenty to find fault with in Religion and what Religious people claim.

You are NOT alone in being in darkness and not living well. that's why Jesus had to pay a price for us with his blood.

You CAN come into the light. God has NEVER ignored me , never. He is way more compassionate and understanding than even the bible might lead us to believe., as well as His other side.

How you get to " feel " better I'm not sure, but your relationship with Him will be unique of course. Can you share some specifics with someone - you can pm me if you like. I can sense you do not want to be judged or patronised, but may I say that sometimes what we focus on is what dominates - i.e. the very real thick darkness in this world. If we want to know the other side it is next to where the darkness is. When I've been seemingly locked in the darkness it feels I will NEVER feel like a regular person again, that happier times are way passed, but that's me getting exhausted by it and overthinking and believing a lie.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:31 pm

sharedfastlane;1221809 wrote: I agree there is plenty to find fault with in Religion and what Religious people claim.

You are NOT alone in being in darkness and not living well. that's why Jesus had to pay a price for us with his blood.

You CAN come into the light. God has NEVER ignored me , never. He is way more compassionate and understanding than even the bible might lead us to believe., as well as His other side.

.

Well you are very fortunate indeed, God ignores me for sure. He still maintains my life everyday, takes care of me, things could be a lot worse. The ignoring I mean is not giving me his Holy Spirit, and the Fruits of it. Not giving me complette understanding of his word, and not releasing me from the Darkness, although he certainly constrains the Darkness in my Life, but he still has me bonded over to it. I cannot come into the Light, and no human can of their own will and choice, that is a fantasy. God must first give the Light, or draw the human to him. Even still one can be called, but still not chosen.

Religion is just teaching that we can choose ourselves, annoint ourselfs, come into the light on our own. I disagree with that, and see it nowhere in scripture.

Peace.

sharedfastlane · Post by **sharedfastlane** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:00 am

The Darkness has the power to mask itself, even in the Heart of the person being deceived and engulfed by it. It has done this to me. For years the Darkness had me in an illusion that I was being called by God and was Special. Oh how the human heart loves to think that. This is a favorite, strong powerful tactic of the Darkness. Appeal directly to the human ego and desire, give it what it wants, and leave it in that illusion all of its life. Like a baby being pacified, this human will be no more threat to the Darkness the rest of its life. Just rub it, pacify it, stroke its ego over and over and over again.

Give the Atheist what it wants, the believer what it wants, get them in the corner of their own little world, and lock them there in peace. This is the Power of the Darkness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.
Why do you no longer feel you are special? I have spent a lot of years believing things that were a bit skewed, but * I* feel I did my best, a person can't be perfect.

Where I'm at today is that I think studying the Bible alone without Holy Spirit input is not the most rewarding - it's just dead rules. Danger of all the Spirit filled this and that is it is all open to interpretaion of course. Stupid though the church is, there's truth still in it.

Some times we go through darkness but we can also imbibe a negativity that we are unaware of affecting our belief. This is *us* imprisoning ourselves, not God punishing us

What's behind your comments on understanding the darkness? Shouldn't we shun it- turn the " light" on rather. If we can't shouldn't we fnd someone who can see us through the sticky patch?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:43 pm

sharedfastlane;1222269 wrote:

Peace.
Why do you no longer feel you are special? I have spent a lot of years believing things that were a bit skewed, but * I* feel I did my best, a person can't be perfect.quote

I am not special, I am an average human, maybe below average, but thats me, I accept that. Part of the new age wave being imposed on people nowadays, is the elevation of their ego. An everage elevation is fine, but an overblown elevation I think is dangerous. We are bombarded with things like; You can be rich, you are the one, you are the King, the head, you are the most bueatiful person in your city, you will never fail, God will place you anywhere you ask, and it goes on and on, and the ego will grow on and on. It becomes a tital wave of self, and will ride you to some shores of self. I don't think a person should think more highly of themselves than what they really are. And the bible advises that. Romans 12:3.

quote

Some times we go through darkness but we can also imbibe a negativity that we are unaware of affecting our belief. This is *us* imprisoning ourselves, not God punishing us. quote

I beg to differ. God has absolute control over humanity, we just like to think that we control ourselves. It is not possible for a person to be something God does not want them to be, conversely, it is not possible for a person to not be something God wants them to be. We are not manipulating ourselves. Jeremiah 10:23;" I know, O Lord, that a mans way is not in himself; nor is it in a man who walks to direct his own steps." This is what I believe, its just not in us to direct our own path. God gives the path, and we just take that to mean we went on the path on our own.

Quote

What's behind your comments on understanding the darkness? Shouldn't we shun it- turn the " light" on rather. If we can't shouldn't we fnd someone who can see us through the sticky patch?

Well two things I see here, the selfish aittitude that we think we are so powerful, that our will is so strong, that WE can " Turn on Gods Light, as if we control God." Secondly, the thought that if we cannot do it, then another human can.

And I do not subscribe to either thought. Whats behind my comments on the Darkness, if you read what I have already stated, I know the Darkness because I live in it. Its a part of me, it controls me, it influences me. And I am keenly aware of this.

Peace.

sharedfastlane · Post by **sharedfastlane** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:38 am

So... I guess we all choose what we accept/believe of what we hear. Personally it would wear me out to use any bible verses so I haven't - I HAVE been involved in discussion before where we traded them - just don't feel I can do that. Verses can be used to support all sorts and can be interpreted any way from one person to another.

*I* think the emphasis on being " a king" "the head" is to counteract the lack of attention we receive at times in the wider world. It's to bolster fading confidence. The kind of thing you would say to a loved child " Oh YOU can do it! You're GREAT!" Way back in the day we had " The Church" trying to get " the poor" to toe the line and work for their masters dilligently, aside from those Christians who were intent on really helping people. I am not particularly down with the " Goddess" idea. As a female I sometimes feel " less than" so really got interested in the idea that there is somewhere out there a Female-centric society where all runs smoothly , the thought of a people where men and women worked well and fairly, kindly together is another one to look for of course, and, aside from one small example in a remote place where a study was written about, there doesn't seem to be any such thing - the study showed what appeared to be acts of cruelty anyhow. So, to me, prancing around pretending I am a Goddess feels like a child at a party. I AM a bit of a sucker for Spirituality though. Had to prise myself off reading about Ley Lines.

When you talk about God having control that makes me feel he is cruel and spiteful - I haven't known him that way. You have your opinion and I mine I guess.

Is it feasible that someone would WANT to know how Great the Darkness is? If it can't be changed why would a person want to go down that route?

Don't the words of the Bible have any power to change things for the positive?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:39 pm

sharedfastlane;1222623 wrote:

Is it feasible that someone would WANT to know how Great the Darkness is? If it can't be changed why would a person want to go down that route? quote

Again your mindset is sold on choice it seems. You think I choose to be in the Darkness? Why would I do that, muchless me, anyone? I don't see it as a route, but an imposed groove that we are set into. Humans were not given a choice in this matter.

quote

Don't the words of the Bible have any power to change things for the positive?

I think so yes. As well as any wisdom can change for the positive. We have a limited ability to change ourselves, no doubt about that. I just look at the over-all picture. If a parent has a fenched in backyard, and place their children in that yard and tell them they can do anything they wish, as long as they stay in the yard, well then they have limited freedom. Using this anaolgy, God has placed humanity in a much bigger yard, the earth. We can excercise some freedom, but we still are limited, he has confined us to earth. Oh we have a space program that has streched man out to the moon, but we are limited still. Thats the big picture.

The Darkness is another type of fenched in backyard, called human nature. We can only, of ourselves, be so good, and without Gods intervention, we can only go as far as any other human has gone, no further.

Peace.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:41 am

sharedfastlane;1222623 wrote:

Don't the words of the Bible have any power to change things for the positive?

What is the bible doing to all of humanity? Is there Power really in the book itself? Well the real Power is not the book itself, you can take a bible, place it on an examinating table, and scientist well tell you that absolutely no Power is eminating from the book, and they would be correct. The Power is in the " Message" contained in the book, its a message of ultimate Hope.

Many slaves were kept in the Darkness of holding cells, President Obama visted one recently in Africa. In Egypt they have unearthed ancient holding cells where slaves were kept. All these slaves had were Hope for Salvation. I wish you could read some of the messages they scratched and wrote on the walls of these cells. Many cried out to God and asked him why he has abandoned them. Some wrote prayers to him to save them, all in their own languages.

Most of these people were not saved and lived out their life in bondage, freedom came much later to their prodegy. Their childrens children were finally set free.

This whole earth is one large prison of Darkness, and we all are bound in one way or another. Really, the biblical message is the only true Hope that we have. Its message foretells of a time that all men will be free from the Darkness. In John 6:33 it says the Bread of God is that which comes down out of Heaven and Gives Life to the World. Jesus is that bread of Life, but the Darkness killed him.

Yet Jesus accomplished the work he was sent to do. In 1John 3:8 Jesus came to Destroy the Works of the Devil. Sin is the work of the devil, so Jesus came to destroy sin and the Darkness. Certain christians think that sin will cause most of humanity to live forever in the Darkness, well thats not destroying the works of the devil, thats making a monument of the devils work. They believe this nonsense because they themselves are still yet in the Darkness.

But although I am going into this Dark subject, the Hope for all of humanity is to be ultimately saved, and so shall each one of us " Ever be with the Lord."

So don't let this subject distrub you, as I enter more into the Darkness.

Peace.

sharedfastlane · Post by **sharedfastlane** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:21 am

Aha, your most recent post covers some light! You speak of the work of Jesus. I'm trying to locate a verse that came to me about J. being the light of the world and that the darkness cannot put out the light, but not having much success. Will get back to the search.

*I* don't feel Christians have an agenda to keep holding the World down in their mud and tell them they are all doomed. Most Christians should know they are saved, not cleaned up by their own strength. I am not clear where you are at in your spiritual journey. Sometimes people seem to hate the church and , not referring to you necessarily here, just my observation, I wonder if the Christian Religion gets the backlash that some feel unable to express freely against Islam for fear of violence as well as that that would genuinely be shown to Christianity ... Anyhow my experience as a " born again believer" , (nice label!) was to be at times overwhelmed with my responsibility. I could be oppressed, attacked by the devil, be held responsible according to some parts of the bible for those going to hell AND was supposed to be intent on " dying to self" whilst all around people were OUT for themselves. Sure there was inevitably a looking down my nose at unbelievers, sad but true.

You " wish " I could read those messages. Na ah, No thanks. I am not in ignorance of the darkness and human suffering . Anyone with a shred of humanity quickly realises at a very young age the world is a sad place. I hear what you say - these people cried out to God. Yep, I've come across the " if God is soooo loving why does he let babies die?" thing and it doesn't help my faith, I don't have, couldn't find, an answer to that, can't carry anybody - my faith is patchy enough so my take is... for every one who experiences a miracle or a small miracle in reaching out to God in their sweaty humanity and weakness others do the same and have a different result. Well I live in a world that could drag me down and eat me up so I'll stick with the positive, being however a negative person(!).

Yeah I think the power of the Bible could be the message, albeit pretty long and somewhat hidden, turgid, deep, confusing and impossible! I also think the Spirit breathes life into it and our attempts to follow it, but to some that's wishful thinking or magic.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:42 am

[QUOTE=sharedfastlane;1223965

... Anyhow my experience as a " born again believer" , (nice label!) was to be at times overwhelmed with my responsibility. I could be oppressed, attacked by the devil, be held responsible according to some parts of the bible for those going to hell AND was supposed to be intent on dying to self whilst all around people were OUT for themselves. Sure there was inevitably a looking down my nose at unbelievers, sad but true.

;)

I understand and agree with much of what you say, but I must say that I do not believe that anyone is going to this hell you mentioned, also I do not believe that anyone is yet to be born again. Other than these two disagreements, I think what you said was well written.

Peace.

sharedfastlane · Post by **sharedfastlane** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:47 am

Thank you.

What would you say you are? A seeker, a... Or do you not like labels?

Regarding hell... the Bible is full of it. It's where the devil is going.

And... the born again thing...part of the Christian teaching is that we need to be " born" spiritually as we are already born out of the womb into darkness and sin and cannot " see" God's Kingdom with our natural selves. It was a huge thing to me... less so now as I realise how frightfully difficult it IS to Walk the Walk.

Still trying to find my verse. I DO have these:

John 8 verse12 : Jesus said: " I am the Light of the world. He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. ( However.."define following")

Ephesians chapter 5 verse 8 : " For you were sometime darkness but now you are light in the lord, walk as children of the light."

Okay that's enough Bible bashing!

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:53 am

Many people believe that we struggle against ourselves and others, that its our own fault when troubles come. So we blame ourselves and others. We " Take Responsibility" and go at lifes problems from that angle. Look at Ephesians 6:12;" For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the Rulers, against the Powers, against the " World Forces of this Darkness", against the Spiritual forces of Wickedness in the Heavenly Places."

Look at that, " World Forces of the Darkness." This Darkness is a World Force, I mean this " Power" can even affect us while we are asleep. It enters into the counsciousness and the sub consciousness. Its called the " Spiritual Force of Wickedness." This stuff is for real. Its no joke.

In verse 11 the bible suggest that one puts on the whole armor of God in order to stand firm against the " Schemes of the Devil." This thing is plotting and planning our systematic destruction.

Peace.

sharedfastlane · Post by **sharedfastlane** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:15 am

Yes, but he IS defeated. He's no wuss I grant you, but he is a liar and a bully so if people think they are stuck and things can't change- that's not true. I don't USE the name of Jesus a lot, but once when some lads seemed to suddenly turn and follow me into a dimly lit area as I declined an offer of a walk home from someone I was paralysed with fear and out of reflex said the name of Jesus under my breath as I turned to see why they were suddenly coming so close, three of them I think. I think they were aware of a confidence in me, or presence, I WAS scared, I'm no fighter, so they just melted away again.Of course it could have been I turned to look at them rather than scurry off into the night at a quicker pace. That spoke powerfully to me. Of course it's no recipe to go through life and apply to every situation. It can become a dead formula.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:01 am

sharedfastlane;1224003 wrote: Yes, but he IS defeated. He's no wuss I grant you, but he is a liar and a bully so if people think they are stuck and things can't change- that's not true. I don't USE the name of Jesus a lot, but once when some lads seemed to suddenly turn and follow me into a dimly lit area as I declined an offer of a walk home from someone I was paralysed with fear and out of reflex said the name of Jesus under my breath as I turned to see why they were suddenly coming so close, three of them I think. I think they were aware of a confidence in me, or presence, I WAS scared, I'm no fighter, so they just melted away again.Of course it could have been I turned to look at them rather than scurry off into the night at a quicker pace. That spoke powerfully to me. Of course it's no recipe to go through life and apply to every situation. It can become a dead formula.

Well I also believe the forces of Darkness are already defeated, so the destruction they presently cause, is being done inspite of their awareness that they are defeated. When a force that knows its defeated, fights on, what does that tell us? Stubborness, spite, evil, foolishness or hatred. Perverted Power, jealousy and envy, the list goes on and all this is the motivation of the Darkness. The Darkness is Schemeing, crafty, tossing humans all over the place in their understanding of Gods plan of Salvation.

But one thing is sure, the Darkness is an integral part of Gods plans too. God could have done all this without the Darkness, he didnot. And that speaks volumes.

Peace.

sharedfastlane · Post by **sharedfastlane** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:37 am

So... what were you raised as and what are you today?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:59 am

sharedfastlane;1224040 wrote: So... what were you raised as and what are you today?

I was not raised by any church, I never fit in to any. I wouldnot bond with what I didnot agree with, so any church I tried, I was always on the outside.

Today I am a sinner in need of his God, I have not progressed beyond that.

Peace.

sharedfastlane · Post by **sharedfastlane** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:04 am

I see.

Soldier · Post by **Soldier** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:35 am

Mickiel;1221658 wrote: Now its hard to pass judgement now as to the complette results of evil, because evil is dominant now. It just masks its dominance, in me and you. It does not want you to know that you live under it. It wants you to go on thinking like you do, unaware of its dominance. 1Corinth. 4:5;" Therefore do not go on passing judgement before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the Darkness and disclose the motives of mens hearts."

The Darkness hides itself, God hides himself, Jesus is not here, and the Holy Spirit is rare, so humanity is just destined to have a hard time of it. And I will get back to this later, because its important , but its a Godly design.

The Darkness has the power to mask itself, even in the Heart of the person being deceived and engulfed by it. It has done this to me. For years the Darkness had me in an illusion that I was being called by God and was Special. Oh how the human heart loves to think that. This is a favorite, strong powerful tactic of the Darkness. Appeal directly to the human ego and desire, give it what it wants, and leave it in that illusion all of its life. Like a baby being pacified, this human will be no more threat to the Darkness the rest of its life. Just rub it, pacify it, stroke its ego over and over and over again.

Give the Atheist what it wants, the believer what it wants, get them in the corner of their own little world, and lock them there in peace. This is the Power of the Darkness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

This is my first post here, but I have read through this whole thread. The only reason I decided to stop here for awhile is because you have hit on a very important point.

We cannot be soldiers and fight the darkness if we think we are kings kids with the victory already won. There is a war for our minds and souls to be waged. This is where you are at I think, and where everyone is at whether they know it or not.

The reason Jesus died is to redeem the Father's power and sovereignty over the earth that was usurped by satan. Because this only begotten Son of God came in the flesh, and paid the price, we are not left defenseless when it comes to this darkness you speak of. I have been very entrenched and deceived by the very thing that you speak of, and the things you say have a lot of truth in them.

You say that you do not know much about the deep things of God, but I would venture to say that from what you have posted that you know more than you realize. The only way a soul is able to see what is the Truth and Goodness of God is by the darkness, trials, and hardships. The more broken a soul is, the more they can be used by God. The darkness is a tool used by God to mature a person so that they can be of use in the Kingdom of God and be about His work.

We can either build our own kingdoms or we can build His Kingdom..not both. We cannot serve God and mammon. We are to be using the tools of the Kingdom to be edifying Him and doing the work He has set before us...and not for our own use to make life an easy existence for ourselves.

I hope you see this post as neither patronizing or preaching, but more of "this is the place I have come to and the insights I have gleaned".

Blessings.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:00 am

Soldier;1227248 wrote:

This is my first post here, but I have read through this whole thread.

The reason Jesus died is to redeem the Father's power and sovereignty over the earth that was usurped by satan. Blessings.

Welcome to Forumgarden.

I agree with some things you say, and not others. Just to name one, satan didNOT usurp the earth from God, God gave it to him. To believe that satan took it from God, is to believe at the moment he took it, he was more powerful than God, which is never so.

Jesus didNOT die to redeem Gods Power over the earth, or anythingelse. Nothing can take Power away from God. Whatever is in Power, is in Power BECAUSE of God.

Peace.

Soldier · Post by **Soldier** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:11 pm

Mickiel;1227344 wrote: Welcome to Forumgarden.

I agree with some things you say, and not others. Just to name one, satan didNOT usurp the earth from God, God gave it to him. To believe that satan took it from God, is to believe at the moment he took it, he was more powerful than God, which is never so.

Jesus didNOT die to redeem Gods Power over the earth, or anythingelse. Nothing can take Power away from God. Whatever is in Power, is in Power BECAUSE of God.

Peace.

Thank-you for the welcome.

Here is a little study that may be of interest:

There has been some debate regarding who had spiritual control of this world between the fall of Adam and the crucifixion of the Messiah. On the one hand it is claimed that as God was the creator of this world he was always the one that was the undisputed owner of it. On the other hand if this was the case then why did Jesus have to die on the cross in order to redeem it back? After all there would be no need to redeem back that which you are already in possession of is there?

In order to get a bit of understanding regarding this issue, it would be a good idea to see what the scriptures have to say on this subject and a good place to start is with the words of Jesus himself.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Here it makes it quite clear that Jesus considered the devil as the prince of this world and he linked the braking of Satan's power with his death on the cross.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto him, all these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

How could Satan tempt Jesus with the nations of this world if he did not actually own them and have it in his power to give them to whomever he wished.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you; for the prince of this world cometh, and has nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the father; and as the father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise let us go hence.

Jesus again acknowledges Satan as the ruler of this world at that time. He was telling the disciples that he had to go back to the father but it would appear that he did not want to say too much so as to not give Satan any idea of what would happen once he was crucified. This was obviously a very critical time in the earth's history and he wanted to keep Satan ignorant of what was to happen.

John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Some interesting points come out about the Holy Spirit but again it is Satan that is identified as the soon to be removed ruler of this world. Jesus is again explaining to his disciples that he must go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit or comforter can be sent to the earth. After Jesus has redeemed the earth back to God through his crucifixion the Holy Spirit can be sent to retake possession of the earth and remove Satan's controlling powers.

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

We see how things are on earth after the crucifixion. A clear distinction is made

between the spirit of God and the spirit of this world. Both are now in competition with each other for the hearts and minds of men. In verse 14 it tells us straight out that the unsaved natural man is unable to understand the things of God for they appear as foolishness to them. This is because the unsaved man still has his thought processes controlled by Satan's spiritual influence while the saved that have Gods spirit in them are able to comprehend the things of God because the Holy Spirit within them has opened the things of God to their minds.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

This gives us a bit more insight into what is going on now that the world has been redeemed back and Gods Holy Spirit sent to the earth in order to retake possession of it. This passage deals mainly with spiritual warfare and the intercessory ministries, but it does bring home the point that it is the remains of

Satan's authority that is the enemy that needs to be dealt with so as to free the people in order to allow them to come back to God the Father. It is only through the power of Gods Holy Spirit that we can do this.

As can be seen, even though the world has now been legally redeemed back to God by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The blood being the currency used, with which it was redeemed back. Satan is not willing to relinquish control of his own accord and is going to have to be forcibly evicted.

Col 2: 14-15 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. And having spoiled principalities and powers he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Here we have things explained rather nicely. This explains how the crucifixion made it legally possible for us to be redeemed back to God the Father and how the powers of Satan that had control of this earth and us, had us ripped from his grasp and placed beyond his reach.

Now even though the Devil no longer has a legal claim to this earth, he is so well entrenched and so well established that his influence will not be fully broken until the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus the Christ. This is laid out in revelations and will result in Satan being bound for the thousand years. Until then we have the Holy Spirit to empower us so that we can stand against him and do our job of taking the gospel to all creation so that we can tell all men that we can come back to God and shake off the chains of Satan forever.

As a side interest it would be a good idea to take a look at:

Is 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fall down, as a leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from a fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

This passage would suggest that this conflict extends far beyond the confines of this earth alone. Here Isaiah is giving his account of the battle of Armageddon at the end of the age and the hosts of heaven that joined in the rebellion are clearly implicated.

Now lets apply a bit of common sense and the power of reason. Where do you think all the persecution is coming from? The scriptures tell us quite plainly that if we follow God we will receive his entire blessing but it will be along with persecution.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:42 pm

Soldier;1227393 wrote: Thank-you for the welcome.

Here is a little study that may be of interest:

There has been some debate regarding who had spiritual control of this world between the fall of Adam and the crucifixion of the Messiah. On the one hand it is claimed that as God was the creator of this world he was always the one that was the undisputed owner of it. On the other hand if this was the case then why did Jesus have to die on the cross in order to redeem it back? After all there would be no need to redeem back that which you are already in possession of is there?

I hold no arguement that satan is the god of this world, he is. But only because it was given to him, he didnot " Take it." Show me anywhere in scripture that satan took anything from God against Gods will. That is impossible. The earth is the Lords and the fullness thereof. God simply gave satan authority over it for a time. satan never won a war over the earth, and God is not in competition with him.

Also, there is no such thing as " The Fall of Adam", that is a deceptive myth. Adam didnot fall, he was pushed out of Eden. God set him up to fail, and the genesis account explains this. The devil didnot bully his way into Eden, God let him in. And God knew the results of that. God didnot protect Adam or Eve from satan, and God knew the young couple was no match for the demon.

God introduced humanity to evil and satan, knowing we couldnot defeat sin on our own, thus God created the need for Christ to come. Humanity is being redeemed, satan holding temporary authority on earth is meaningless to God, its part of the plan of Salvation.

Peace.

Soldier · Post by **Soldier** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:33 pm

The first thing is that we need to keep sight of the real issues at stake. When Satan fell he took a third of the heavenly host with him. That implies that there are other issues at stake that go well beyond us. The question is how did he get 1/3 of the heavenly host to rebel against God as well while they still had the glory of God in their sight.

By deduction I have come to the conclusion that satan achieved this by calling the validity of Gods laws into question. Was it a case of Justus or was it a case of might makes right. Was Gods laws governing the kingdom based on love and freedom or was it based on a dictatorship. You can see the same argument playing out in the world around us to this day.

Satan was a covering Cherub and he lashed out in an act of violence over a dispute regarding stones he was trading in. He gets cast down to earth and it becomes a case of think quick or get removed altogether. His statements and accusations must have been really convincing because it launched the entire satanic rebellion and divided Gods kingdom.

Now for the sake of the rest of creation this question regarding the validity of Gods laws has to be settled once and for all. It has to be proved righteous and demonstrated as such or the doubts will linger for eternity opening the door for evil to rise a second time.

This bit of scripture will help to put things in perspective.

Isa 40:14 With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him and taught Him in the path of judgment, and taught Him knowledge, and made known the way of understanding to Him?

Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations are like a drop in a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the scales; behold, He takes up the coastlands as a very little thing.

If the nations of this world are the dust on the scales then the real issues have to be so much more than just us.

Now when Adam was created the rules regarding what was of Gods kingdom and what was of satans rebellion was already in place. That which rebelled against God automatically fell into satans camp.

Yes God is still in charge and yes God is outside of time and can see both the beginning and the end. But a point has to be proved and God is not going to force his creation to obey him. Now God placed this earth under the authority of Adam as can be seen in Genesis and it basically is still under the authority of his descendants. We rule over this earth and all the creatures in it.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.

Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.

But when Adam sinned he cut himself off from Gods kingdom and joined satans rebellion. As such the spiritual authority over us was placed under the hand of satan. Now this was achieved through deceit. God did not tell satan to do it. Satan planned this himself and the idea was to catch God out in one of the Devils famous choices. He wanted to use the family of man as a weapon against God.

The choice was this, This creature Adam that you are so fond of has now also sinned, the fact that it was his wife that was his weakness does not matter, he sinned knowing that he ought not to. Now if you destroy me then you have to destroy them as well. But if you let them off the hook then you have to let me off as well or is it a case of one set of laws for the one and another set for the other.

No problem, satan is no match for God even in the wits department. Adam sinned, the wages of sin is death, so the death penalty has to be served. That is how the plan of salvation came about. But note that this plan of salvation is to be explained to all of creation, not just mankind. Now the tables have been turned. All the gains that satan had made are no longer fixed and can now be reversed, and to be absolutely fair satan can also submit to Christ as well but that is not going to happen. The king of pride ends up suffering the worst fate, humiliation.

Now we need to keep one thing in mind. God can see all the alternative futures. We cannot. The story of creation is not yet over. There is going to be other works of creation still to come and those that belong to God are going to be a part of it. But for creation to be sound and function properly it needs to learn the needed lessons and mature with understanding. If God does everything all the time then how does creation learn and grow.

The impression I get is that God Chose the time and place for sin and rebellion to raise its head and he has let it have its run so that the results of sin can be demonstrated to all creation and the worth and value of Gods laws proven beyond all question. Rather it be now near the beginning of the creation work than later when there is real power available and things can be a lot worse. For creation to grow and mature into something greater the lesson has to be taught and experience is the best way to do it.

That is why God calls on us to trust him no matter how bad it seems to get.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:33 pm

Soldier;1227638 wrote: The first thing is that we need to keep sight of the real issues at stake. When Satan fell he took a third of the heavenly host with him. That implies that there are other issues at stake that go well beyond us. The question is how did he get 1/3 of the heavenly host to rebel against God as well while they still had the glory of God in their sight.

By deduction I have come to the conclusion that satan achieved this by calling the validity of Gods laws into question. Was it a case of Justus or was it a case of might makes right. Was Gods laws governing the kingdom based on love and freedom or was it based on a dictatorship. You can see the same argument playing out in the world around us to this day.

Satan was a covering Cherub and he lashed out in an act of violence over a dispute regarding stones he was trading in. He gets cast down to earth and it becomes a case of think quick or get removed altogether. His statements and accusations must have been really convincing because it launched the entire satanic rebellion and divided Gods kingdom.

.

Again I disagree with your interpitation of scripture and how satan came to be. satan didnot " Fall from heaven", as if he was already living there, and then took a third of the angels with him. That is just yet another christian myth. And also proof that the Darkness has a foothold on christian beliefs. satan was never a holy angel, he was created evil from his beginning. Jesus himself taught that the devil was a murderer from his creation in John 8:44. In Isaiah 54:16 God himself said that he created the " Destroyer to cause ruin", the devil was created evil from his conception. In Gen.3:1 it called satan, the serpent, more wise than any other creature God had made, which confirms God created it. This is the same serpent in Rev. 12:9.

The devil didNOT get a third of Angels to rebell, they all were created demons that was with satan, not good angels who changed. The popular christian interpitation of Ezek. 28, is also a myth. The being in Ezk.28, is not satan the devil, as many believe. It is the Leader of Tyre, as vs.2 plainly states. In Ezek. 28:9 it plainly states that this being is " A Man", not a Spirit being. So I don't go for this junk christians teach.

satan was created evil from his conception, as were all demons. Gods Kingdom NEVER has been divided, and NEVER will be. Those who teah as such, are simply blinded by the Darkness. In Prov. 16:4, " The Lord has made EVERYTHING for his own purpose, including evil and wicked things. This just comes right out and affirms that God created Evil. It was God, in Genesis, that created the Knowledge of Evil and planted it on earth, he mixed it in with good, creating a tree of " Good and Evil knowledge mixed together into one tree, which is confusion." Jer. 4:6 shows how God himself will " Bring Evil."

christians severely misunderstand this, which is why they do not understand salvation or the purpose of Evil and sin. And one thing I have learned; You cannot show a christian the Truth.

Only God can do that.

Peace.

Soldier · Post by **Soldier** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:51 pm

Ok, so why not go ahead and lay out what you have come to believe/understand about these principles.

The other reason I came on this forum was because you had some pretty interesting things to say about the Bible and archaeology in another thread. I also believe that creation was in blocks of time rather than the normal thought of 6 literal days, but I can post my thoughts on those things on that thread...

Blessings.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:16 pm

Soldier;1227650 wrote: Ok, so why not go ahead and lay out what you have come to believe/understand about these principles.

The other reason I came on this forum was because you had some pretty interesting things to say about the Bible and archaeology in another thread. I also believe that creation was in blocks of time rather than the normal thought of 6 literal days, but I can post my thoughts on those things on that thread...

Blessings.

Its already been layed out in this thread and others on this board, no need to go back over it. But I also agree that the creation days were not literal 24 hour days. I don't know how long they were, but God was in no hurry, and he still is not. His patience is legendary in Heaven, and misunderstood on earth.

One of the foundational principles in beginning to undserstand the bible, is the Genesis account. Adam was created a full grown male, he was not a boy child. God never gave him his Spirit, and never trained him in Righteousness, thats why Adam followed Eve. God fully intended for Adam and Eve to be put out of the Garden, there was no " Fall." Look closely at Gen. 3:7, its all right there. AFTER they ate from the tree, or consumed knowledge of good and evil, THEN the eyes of both of them were opened. Meaning prior to this, they were " Blind of ANY knowledge that could have helped them." They were so nieve, they didnot even know they were naked. How in the world of reason could any human face satan in that condition and expect to be judged by God from it?

satan didNOT slip pass God, fool God himself and all the Angels AND Christ, get into Eden unoticed, and heap this misery on this young newly created couple. God knew exactly what he wanted to occur, there is no such thing as " The Fall." More correctly stated, it was " The Set Up."

God created the mixed up tree of Knowledge, he created the Serpent, he created the Garden, he created the humans, and the earth. ALL things were created by Christ under Gods direction, INCLUDING satan, demons, and God is directly responsible for all things that this has caused, and he knows that. John 1:3;" ALL things came into being by Christ, apart from him NOTHING came into being on its own. Evil has no evolution on its own, satan has no evolution of his own, he didnot evolve from good to evil, that is a serious misunderstanding.

satan is the Prince of Darkness, and he himself does not comprehend Gods Light, John 1:5. He is being used by God, there is no war between God and evil, evil has absolutely no chance whatsoever to defeat God or his Will for humanity. Salvation is a done deal of the century, and all of humanity will benefit from it.

Peace.