'Please help me Mum, I don't want to die': Last words of alcoholic, 22, who died after being refused liver transplant | Mail Online
I can understand the theory of not giving alcoholics much needed liver transplants after George Best continued to drink himself to death after taking donors liver but i find this ethically wrong.
This lad was only 22 years old. He had his whole life ahead of him to turn his life around and get off the drink with help. He wasn't even given one chance.
Why was he left to die?
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Oscar Namechange
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Why was he left to die?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
Tragic but just say he with his self inflicted illness had got that liver who would be left to die?
A mother ? A hard working young man trying to look after his family?
There is a shortage of suitable organs available which is why there are strict rules about who should and should not get them.
I feel for his family but his condition was self inflicted He put himself in that condition no one forced him to drink a bottle of vodka a day.
Its time people took responsability for thier actions I bet his doctor warned him time and time again yet he choose to continue drinking
A mother ? A hard working young man trying to look after his family?
There is a shortage of suitable organs available which is why there are strict rules about who should and should not get them.
I feel for his family but his condition was self inflicted He put himself in that condition no one forced him to drink a bottle of vodka a day.
Its time people took responsability for thier actions I bet his doctor warned him time and time again yet he choose to continue drinking
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219217 wrote: 'Please help me Mum, I don't want to die': Last words of alcoholic, 22, who died after being refused liver transplant | Mail Online
I can understand the theory of not giving alcoholics much needed liver transplants after George Best continued to drink himself to death after taking donors liver but i find this ethically wrong.
This lad was only 22 years old. He had his whole life ahead of him to turn his life around and get off the drink with help. He wasn't even given one chance.
How very, very sad.
I doubt He'd have been fit enough to have the transplant anyway, His poor mother must be heartbroke.
I can understand the theory of not giving alcoholics much needed liver transplants after George Best continued to drink himself to death after taking donors liver but i find this ethically wrong.
This lad was only 22 years old. He had his whole life ahead of him to turn his life around and get off the drink with help. He wasn't even given one chance.
How very, very sad.
I doubt He'd have been fit enough to have the transplant anyway, His poor mother must be heartbroke.
Why was he left to die?
The priority surely has to be to get the supply of transplant organs sufficient to meet the medical demand. If you get that right then you can hand them out willy-nilly. Until then you have to make choices and the current ethical position is to discount self-inflicted illness. By all means argue that the ethics are mistaken if you like.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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fuzzywuzzy
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Why was he left to die?
Not sure about this " self inflicted " position you guys keep saying.
How is alcoholism self inflicted?
How is alcoholism self inflicted?
Why was he left to die?
liver transplants are few and far between.
thousands die each year from not receiving one on time.
these are people who desperately need a liver from whatever caused it to fail.
...not some hot shot kid who decided to overdoes at such a young age.
I can't imagine giving him one, when he doesn't even know if he can quit.......so give to someone that deserves it.
myself, if I ever needed a lung transplant from smoking, I definitely would not deserve one.........
but....I do feel for his mom.
thousands die each year from not receiving one on time.
these are people who desperately need a liver from whatever caused it to fail.
...not some hot shot kid who decided to overdoes at such a young age.
I can't imagine giving him one, when he doesn't even know if he can quit.......so give to someone that deserves it.
myself, if I ever needed a lung transplant from smoking, I definitely would not deserve one.........
but....I do feel for his mom.
Life is just to short for drama.
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fuzzywuzzy
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Why was he left to die?
hang on isn't that like saying the bloke dying of a heartattack and who lived a healthy lifestyle should be revived over a young teenager who has OD on GBH?
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Oscar Namechange
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Why was he left to die?
fuzzywuzzy;1219388 wrote: hang on isn't that like saying the bloke dying of a heartattack and who lived a healthy lifestyle should be revived over a young teenager who has OD on GBH?
Yes.
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
Yes.
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219431 wrote: Yes.
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
Yes, yes, no, no, no, no, yes and no.
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
Yes, yes, no, no, no, no, yes and no.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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Why was he left to die?
spot;1219439 wrote: Yes, yes, no, no, no, no, yes and no.
Ok....... why should the dangerous sport activists, car drivers, horse riders and folk who go out in the snow be treated?
If you decide to climb the south face of the Eiger in a pair of flip flops, your injury is self inflicted.
If you crash your car, your injury is self inflicted as you CHOSE to get in the car.
If you fall off your horse, you CHOSE to get on it in the first place.
If the weather fore-cast advises you not to go out in heavy snow and ice, you CHOSE to do it.
Exactly the same as the lad who CHOSE to drink.
Ok....... why should the dangerous sport activists, car drivers, horse riders and folk who go out in the snow be treated?
If you decide to climb the south face of the Eiger in a pair of flip flops, your injury is self inflicted.
If you crash your car, your injury is self inflicted as you CHOSE to get in the car.
If you fall off your horse, you CHOSE to get on it in the first place.
If the weather fore-cast advises you not to go out in heavy snow and ice, you CHOSE to do it.
Exactly the same as the lad who CHOSE to drink.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219442 wrote: Ok....... why should the dangerous sport activists, car drivers, horse riders and folk who go out in the snow be treated?
If you decide to climb the south face of the Eiger in a pair of flip flops, your injury is self inflicted.
If you crash your car, your injury is self inflicted as you CHOSE to get in the car.
If you fall off your horse, you CHOSE to get on it in the first place.
If the weather fore-cast advises you not to go out in heavy snow and ice, you CHOSE to do it.
Exactly the same as the lad who CHOSE to drink.
There are two issues involved. One's the degree of risk and the skill of the participant, the other's the extent of the warning and the period over which the damage is inflicted.
Extreme Eiger-climbing, horse riding, severe weather outings and car driving have positive aspects to counter the quantifiable risk involved, something absent from chronic alcohol-induced cirrhosis.
If you decide to climb the south face of the Eiger in a pair of flip flops, your injury is self inflicted.
If you crash your car, your injury is self inflicted as you CHOSE to get in the car.
If you fall off your horse, you CHOSE to get on it in the first place.
If the weather fore-cast advises you not to go out in heavy snow and ice, you CHOSE to do it.
Exactly the same as the lad who CHOSE to drink.
There are two issues involved. One's the degree of risk and the skill of the participant, the other's the extent of the warning and the period over which the damage is inflicted.
Extreme Eiger-climbing, horse riding, severe weather outings and car driving have positive aspects to counter the quantifiable risk involved, something absent from chronic alcohol-induced cirrhosis.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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Why was he left to die?
spot;1219446 wrote: There are two issues involved. One's the degree of risk and the skill of the participant, the other's the extent of the warning and the period over which the damage is inflicted.
Extreme Eiger-climbing, horse riding, severe weather outings and car driving have positive aspects to counter the quantifiable risk involved, something absent from chronic alcohol-induced cirrhosis.
Yes, i can see that. This lad wanted help and wanted to change. Yes, he was no doubt warned by his Doctor and hospital to stop drinking but did anyone go into the under-lying reasons why he was an alcoholic at such a young age? Alcoholism is a disease or illness is it not?
Extreme Eiger-climbing, horse riding, severe weather outings and car driving have positive aspects to counter the quantifiable risk involved, something absent from chronic alcohol-induced cirrhosis.
Yes, i can see that. This lad wanted help and wanted to change. Yes, he was no doubt warned by his Doctor and hospital to stop drinking but did anyone go into the under-lying reasons why he was an alcoholic at such a young age? Alcoholism is a disease or illness is it not?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219448 wrote: Yes, i can see that. This lad wanted help and wanted to change. Yes, he was no doubt warned by his Doctor and hospital to stop drinking but did anyone go into the under-lying reasons why he was an alcoholic at such a young age? Alcoholism is a disease or illness is it not?
Now try to include the problem of supply and demand for transplant organs and decide whether it should be purely a lottery - literally, a lottery - or whether selection should be a part of the medical process. Not an age selection or a self-inflicted selection or a sex or race or sexuality selection, just the principle of selection as opposed to lottery.
Now try to include the problem of supply and demand for transplant organs and decide whether it should be purely a lottery - literally, a lottery - or whether selection should be a part of the medical process. Not an age selection or a self-inflicted selection or a sex or race or sexuality selection, just the principle of selection as opposed to lottery.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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Why was he left to die?
spot;1219450 wrote: Now try to include the problem of supply and demand for transplant organs and decide whether it should be purely a lottery - literally, a lottery - or whether selection should be a part of the medical process. Not an age selection or a self-inflicted selection or a sex or race or sexuality selection, just the principle of selection as opposed to lottery.
I am a potential donor and i'm very aware of the harvesting of healthy organs and the shortage in this country. I can understand a parent feeling that this lad wasted his life by drinking and why should he have a liver over say, a baby? No, it can't be a lottery can it? However, i do feel that an exeption should have been made due to this lads age. It comes down to the basics that some-one, some-where made the choice weather this lad should be helped or left to die. That worrys me. When do we get to the point where these 'some-body's' decided not to revive elderly patients?
You dodged my question. Alcoholism is a disease or illness i believe?
I am a potential donor and i'm very aware of the harvesting of healthy organs and the shortage in this country. I can understand a parent feeling that this lad wasted his life by drinking and why should he have a liver over say, a baby? No, it can't be a lottery can it? However, i do feel that an exeption should have been made due to this lads age. It comes down to the basics that some-one, some-where made the choice weather this lad should be helped or left to die. That worrys me. When do we get to the point where these 'some-body's' decided not to revive elderly patients?
You dodged my question. Alcoholism is a disease or illness i believe?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219455 wrote: I am a potential donor and i'm very aware of the harvesting of healthy organs and the shortage in this country. I can understand a parent feeling that this lad wasted his life by drinking and why should he have a liver over say, a baby? No, it can't be a lottery can it? However, i do feel that an exeption should have been made due to this lads age. It comes down to the basics that some-one, some-where made the choice weather this lad should be helped or left to die. That worrys me. When do we get to the point where these 'some-body's' decided not to revive elderly patients?
You dodged my question. Alcoholism is a disease or illness i believe?Alcoholism induces disease, I think it would be a perversion of language to describe it as one. It's a lifestyle choice and a chemical addiction. By all means call it an illness though.
The outcome of the transplant's very much influenced by the subsequent behaviour of the patient, as far as I'm aware. I'm sure the criteria for deciding who's offered one and who isn't is based on past outcomes, not on guesswork or prejudice. The same would apply to deciding whether not to revive elderly patients. Every failed transplant is the death not only of the donor and the transplantee but also of the patient who didn't get it.
You dodged my question. Alcoholism is a disease or illness i believe?Alcoholism induces disease, I think it would be a perversion of language to describe it as one. It's a lifestyle choice and a chemical addiction. By all means call it an illness though.
The outcome of the transplant's very much influenced by the subsequent behaviour of the patient, as far as I'm aware. I'm sure the criteria for deciding who's offered one and who isn't is based on past outcomes, not on guesswork or prejudice. The same would apply to deciding whether not to revive elderly patients. Every failed transplant is the death not only of the donor and the transplantee but also of the patient who didn't get it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Why was he left to die?
spot;1219458 wrote: Alcoholism induces disease, I think it would be a perversion of language to describe it as one. It's a lifestyle choice and a chemical addiction. By all means call it an illness though.
The outcome of the transplant's very much influenced by the subsequent behaviour of the patient, as far as I'm aware. I'm sure the criteria for deciding who's offered one and who isn't is based on past outcomes, not on guesswork or prejudice. The same would apply to deciding whether not to revive elderly patients. Every failed transplant is the death not only of the donor and the transplantee but also of the patient who didn't get it.
The ethics were broken in the case of George Best. Surely, they made a precident?
The outcome of the transplant's very much influenced by the subsequent behaviour of the patient, as far as I'm aware. I'm sure the criteria for deciding who's offered one and who isn't is based on past outcomes, not on guesswork or prejudice. The same would apply to deciding whether not to revive elderly patients. Every failed transplant is the death not only of the donor and the transplantee but also of the patient who didn't get it.
The ethics were broken in the case of George Best. Surely, they made a precident?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219466 wrote: The ethics were broken in the case of George Best. Surely, they made a precident?
I'd have thought it was what happened to George Best which made the need for a justifiable policy apparent.
I'd have thought it was what happened to George Best which made the need for a justifiable policy apparent.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Why was he left to die?
spot;1219470 wrote: I'd have thought it was what happened to George Best which made the need for a justifiable policy apparent. This is my point. Descisions are being made in transplant cases due to the antics and dis-regard to his donated liver by George Best. On that occassions, they got it wrong. They could have been equally as wrong about this lad making the most of his new liver and living healthly.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219472 wrote: This is my point. Descisions are being made in transplant cases due to the antics and dis-regard to his donated liver by George Best. On that occassions, they got it wrong. They could have been equally as wrong about this lad making the most of his new liver and living healthly.
So what you're missing at the moment is a proposed policy that you find acceptable, to replace the current one. Perhaps you'd like to outline what you'd prefer?
So what you're missing at the moment is a proposed policy that you find acceptable, to replace the current one. Perhaps you'd like to outline what you'd prefer?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Why was he left to die?
fuzzywuzzy;1219351 wrote: Not sure about this " self inflicted " position you guys keep saying.
How is alcoholism self inflicted?
How would you feel if he had been a drug addict?
Just because drinking alcohol is socially acceptable doesn't make it any less of a drug than say heroin or nicotine. Some people become addicted and go on to be alcoholics. I have as much sympathy for an alcoholic as I do for a heroin addict. It's an addiction in the same way as taking drugs is and both have chosen their lifestyle.
posted by oscar
Ok....... why should the dangerous sport activists, car drivers, horse riders and folk who go out in the snow be treated?
If you decide to climb the south face of the Eiger in a pair of flip flops, your injury is self inflicted.
If you crash your car, your injury is self inflicted as you CHOSE to get in the car.
If you fall off your horse, you CHOSE to get on it in the first place.
hundreds of thousands of people do these things and very few actually end up injured as a consequence. The treatment they receive is of short duration and the odds of them requiring further treatment are very slim. The number of people injured mountain biking or mountaineering compared to those injured playing football or rugby is actually very small since those sports are actually far more dangerous since injury is more often caused by the opposing side over which you have no control.
The likely consequence of indulging in extreme sports or going out in your car in bad weather is not necessarily catastrophic unlike choosing to become an alcoholic or drug addict where the end result is absolutely certain.
Personally I think they should have taken his age in to account when considering his chances of survival. George Best's case was different IMO. If there had been a suitable alternative recipient perhaps he should have been refused the treatment. He had had plenty of time to sort himself out and chose not to. Arguably a 22 year old hasn't had time to sort himself out yet.
How is alcoholism self inflicted?
How would you feel if he had been a drug addict?
Just because drinking alcohol is socially acceptable doesn't make it any less of a drug than say heroin or nicotine. Some people become addicted and go on to be alcoholics. I have as much sympathy for an alcoholic as I do for a heroin addict. It's an addiction in the same way as taking drugs is and both have chosen their lifestyle.
posted by oscar
Ok....... why should the dangerous sport activists, car drivers, horse riders and folk who go out in the snow be treated?
If you decide to climb the south face of the Eiger in a pair of flip flops, your injury is self inflicted.
If you crash your car, your injury is self inflicted as you CHOSE to get in the car.
If you fall off your horse, you CHOSE to get on it in the first place.
hundreds of thousands of people do these things and very few actually end up injured as a consequence. The treatment they receive is of short duration and the odds of them requiring further treatment are very slim. The number of people injured mountain biking or mountaineering compared to those injured playing football or rugby is actually very small since those sports are actually far more dangerous since injury is more often caused by the opposing side over which you have no control.
The likely consequence of indulging in extreme sports or going out in your car in bad weather is not necessarily catastrophic unlike choosing to become an alcoholic or drug addict where the end result is absolutely certain.
Personally I think they should have taken his age in to account when considering his chances of survival. George Best's case was different IMO. If there had been a suitable alternative recipient perhaps he should have been refused the treatment. He had had plenty of time to sort himself out and chose not to. Arguably a 22 year old hasn't had time to sort himself out yet.
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lou lou belle
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Why was he left to die?
Seeing how much the government forks out on people that really do not care about their health this does make me mad.
I believe if you want to drink heavily, smoke, get overweight and not look after yourself then you should have to pay for the treatment.
Why should i fork out for these people?
I am very fit, i run 4 times a week, only have a few glasses of wine a week and the thought of putting ash in your lungs by smoking disgusts me.
If you want to do this to your body, fine but be prepared to pay for the consequences when you body feels the effects and your require medical attention.
People should start taking accountability for their actions, the NHS cannot cope with the demands of these people.
I believe if you want to drink heavily, smoke, get overweight and not look after yourself then you should have to pay for the treatment.
Why should i fork out for these people?
I am very fit, i run 4 times a week, only have a few glasses of wine a week and the thought of putting ash in your lungs by smoking disgusts me.
If you want to do this to your body, fine but be prepared to pay for the consequences when you body feels the effects and your require medical attention.
People should start taking accountability for their actions, the NHS cannot cope with the demands of these people.
Why was he left to die?
lou lou belle;1219521 wrote: Seeing how much the government forks out on people that really do not care about their health this does make me mad.
I believe if you want to drink heavily, smoke, get overweight and not look after yourself then you should have to pay for the treatment.
Why should i fork out for these people?
I am very fit, i run 4 times a week, only have a few glasses of wine a week and the thought of putting ash in your lungs by smoking disgusts me.
If you want to do this to your body, fine but be prepared to pay for the consequences when you body feels the effects and your require medical attention.
People should start taking accountability for their actions, the NHS cannot cope with the demands of these people.
I agree with this. I also think that those who show up in hospitals at 3 am injured to drunkenness related injuries should have to be billed for services.
I believe if you want to drink heavily, smoke, get overweight and not look after yourself then you should have to pay for the treatment.
Why should i fork out for these people?
I am very fit, i run 4 times a week, only have a few glasses of wine a week and the thought of putting ash in your lungs by smoking disgusts me.
If you want to do this to your body, fine but be prepared to pay for the consequences when you body feels the effects and your require medical attention.
People should start taking accountability for their actions, the NHS cannot cope with the demands of these people.
I agree with this. I also think that those who show up in hospitals at 3 am injured to drunkenness related injuries should have to be billed for services.
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lou lou belle
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Why was he left to die?
I know and perhaps this will stop the idiots getting drunk and causing problems at A&E
Why was he left to die?
mikeinie;1219522 wrote: I agree with this. I also think that those who show up in hospitals at 3 am injured to drunkenness related injuries should have to be billed for services.
or showing up at hospitals anytime for drunkenness should be billed.
the alcohol contents here now is .05 that means on one drink, you can blow over.
or showing up at hospitals anytime for drunkenness should be billed.
the alcohol contents here now is .05 that means on one drink, you can blow over.
Life is just to short for drama.
Why was he left to die?
lou lou belle;1219521 wrote: Seeing how much the government forks out on people that really do not care about their health this does make me mad.
I believe if you want to drink heavily, smoke, get overweight and not look after yourself then you should have to pay for the treatment.
Why should i fork out for these people?
I am very fit, i run 4 times a week, only have a few glasses of wine a week and the thought of putting ash in your lungs by smoking disgusts me.
If you want to do this to your body, fine but be prepared to pay for the consequences when you body feels the effects and your require medical attention.
People should start taking accountability for their actions, the NHS cannot cope with the demands of these people.
On the other hand think how much we save on pension costs
I believe if you want to drink heavily, smoke, get overweight and not look after yourself then you should have to pay for the treatment.
Why should i fork out for these people?
I am very fit, i run 4 times a week, only have a few glasses of wine a week and the thought of putting ash in your lungs by smoking disgusts me.
If you want to do this to your body, fine but be prepared to pay for the consequences when you body feels the effects and your require medical attention.
People should start taking accountability for their actions, the NHS cannot cope with the demands of these people.
On the other hand think how much we save on pension costs
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Why was he left to die?
lou lou belle;1219521 wrote: Seeing how much the government forks out on people that really do not care about their health this does make me mad.
I believe if you want to drink heavily, smoke, get overweight and not look after yourself then you should have to pay for the treatment.
Why should i fork out for these people?
I am very fit, i run 4 times a week, only have a few glasses of wine a week and the thought of putting ash in your lungs by smoking disgusts me.
If you want to do this to your body, fine but be prepared to pay for the consequences when you body feels the effects and your require medical attention.
People should start taking accountability for their actions, the NHS cannot cope with the demands of these people.
Sorry, who exactly are 'these' people? How many people are injured and even suffer heart failure from excessive exercise? That is also self inflicted. Should we choose to not treat you?
It is your choice to exercise. It is not as simple to just label anyone as fat, alcoholic, drug taker or smoker. Every case is different on it's own merits.
I believe if you want to drink heavily, smoke, get overweight and not look after yourself then you should have to pay for the treatment.
Why should i fork out for these people?
I am very fit, i run 4 times a week, only have a few glasses of wine a week and the thought of putting ash in your lungs by smoking disgusts me.
If you want to do this to your body, fine but be prepared to pay for the consequences when you body feels the effects and your require medical attention.
People should start taking accountability for their actions, the NHS cannot cope with the demands of these people.
Sorry, who exactly are 'these' people? How many people are injured and even suffer heart failure from excessive exercise? That is also self inflicted. Should we choose to not treat you?
It is your choice to exercise. It is not as simple to just label anyone as fat, alcoholic, drug taker or smoker. Every case is different on it's own merits.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Why was he left to die?
gmc;1219512 wrote:
Personally I think they should have taken his age in to account when considering his chances of survival. George Best's case was different IMO. If there had been a suitable alternative recipient perhaps he should have been refused the treatment. He had had plenty of time to sort himself out and chose not to. Arguably a 22 year old hasn't had time to sort himself out yet.
Totally agree Auld Yin.
Personally I think they should have taken his age in to account when considering his chances of survival. George Best's case was different IMO. If there had been a suitable alternative recipient perhaps he should have been refused the treatment. He had had plenty of time to sort himself out and chose not to. Arguably a 22 year old hasn't had time to sort himself out yet.
Totally agree Auld Yin.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219431 wrote: Yes.
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
withut going looking for links i think its possible people have been and are being refused treatment as in the case of smokers, overweight etc. just vague recollections of articles read, i think.
Also all this about being billed,,, arent we already billed? we pay taxes and national Insurance dont we?
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
withut going looking for links i think its possible people have been and are being refused treatment as in the case of smokers, overweight etc. just vague recollections of articles read, i think.
Also all this about being billed,,, arent we already billed? we pay taxes and national Insurance dont we?
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
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Why was he left to die?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219747 wrote: http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol ... cle2548075.
Should he have been left to die as well?
THE page you requested could not be found.
Should he have been left to die as well?
THE page you requested could not be found.
FOC THREAD PART1
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Why was he left to die?
kazalala;1219746 wrote: withut going looking for links i think its possible people have been and are being refused treatment as in the case of smokers, overweight etc. just vague recollections of articles read, i think.
Also all this about being biled,,, arent we already billed? we pay taxes and national Insurance dont we?
Exactly Kaz.
In many cases, a health problem being treated in a hospital is not related to the person smoking or drinking, so where do they draw the line?
If i crash my car and have head injuries, would i be refused treatment because i smoke? The whole arguement is hypocritical i feel.
In the cases of very young people who drink and take drugs, they may not have contributed to this country in tax and NI contributions at that time, but that is not to say they will never contribute in the future.
Also all this about being biled,,, arent we already billed? we pay taxes and national Insurance dont we?
Exactly Kaz.
In many cases, a health problem being treated in a hospital is not related to the person smoking or drinking, so where do they draw the line?
If i crash my car and have head injuries, would i be refused treatment because i smoke? The whole arguement is hypocritical i feel.
In the cases of very young people who drink and take drugs, they may not have contributed to this country in tax and NI contributions at that time, but that is not to say they will never contribute in the future.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
I think its fair to maybe give people a chance,,, if they take that chance and abuse it and end up in the same situation again,, maybe thats a different story
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Why was he left to die?
If you had a son or daughter die and some of their organs were used to save or change the life oof another,, then that person abused that organ and didnt look after themselves,,, how would that make you feel?
just outting myself in the other persons shoes here
just outting myself in the other persons shoes here
FOC THREAD PART1
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Why was he left to die?
kazalala;1219751 wrote: I think its fair to maybe give people a chance,,, if they take that chance and abuse it and end up in the same situation again,, maybe thats a different story
That's my line also.
That's my line also.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Why was he left to die?
kazalala;1219753 wrote: If you had a son or daughter die and some of their organs were used to save or change the life oof another,, then that person abused that organ and didnt look after themselves,,, how would that make you feel?
just outting myself in the other persons shoes here
It is difficult i agree but i am an organ donor upon my death. I don't ever think about what the person will do once they have my organ, just that it will give some-one a new chance of life.
just outting myself in the other persons shoes here
It is difficult i agree but i am an organ donor upon my death. I don't ever think about what the person will do once they have my organ, just that it will give some-one a new chance of life.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219755 wrote: It is difficult i agree but i am an organ donor upon my death. I don't ever think about what the person will do once they have my organ, just that it will give some-one a new chance of life.
i think its a good thing to donate an organ or two ,,, i would let them take any of mine gladly,,,, dont know how much good they will be mind
i think its a good thing to donate an organ or two ,,, i would let them take any of mine gladly,,,, dont know how much good they will be mind
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
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Why was he left to die?
kazalala;1219760 wrote: i think its a good thing to donate an organ or two ,,, i would let them take any of mine gladly,,,, dont know how much good they will be mind When i had the pulmery embolism, they were astonished at the results of my lung scans. I was on parr with a non smoker which was madness. However, pioneering technology in harvesting means that more parts can now be used other than just organs. I've signed the lot away. They are no use to me when i'm gone. My blood clot was a result of previous surgery and not my smoking. The same with Mr O's cancer. It is totally unrelated to him having been a smoker.
When i had the pulmery embolism, they were astonished at the results of my lung scans. I was on parr with a non smoker which was madness. However, pioneering technology in harvesting means that more parts can now be used other than just organs. I've signed the lot away. They are no use to me when i'm gone. My blood clot was a result of previous surgery and not my smoking. The same with Mr O's cancer. It is totally unrelated to him having been a smoker.At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
spot;1219473 wrote: So what you're missing at the moment is a proposed policy that you find acceptable, to replace the current one. Perhaps you'd like to outline what you'd prefer?
Certainly spot, I'd be delighted to.
Get rid of the assumption that people own dead bodies and reverse the opt-in for organ donation to an opt-out. That caters for those with religious or cultural objections, it provide all the raw transplant material that's needed and (other than training up more surgeons) it's free. Then we can argue about whether the NHS has the financial resources to use them all. At the moment they use all they're given and ration according to the most-successful-outcome-based guidelines.
Certainly spot, I'd be delighted to.
Get rid of the assumption that people own dead bodies and reverse the opt-in for organ donation to an opt-out. That caters for those with religious or cultural objections, it provide all the raw transplant material that's needed and (other than training up more surgeons) it's free. Then we can argue about whether the NHS has the financial resources to use them all. At the moment they use all they're given and ration according to the most-successful-outcome-based guidelines.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Why was he left to die?
spot;1219803 wrote: Certainly spot, I'd be delighted to.
Get rid of the assumption that people own dead bodies and reverse the opt-in for organ donation to an opt-out. That caters for those with religious or cultural objections, it provide all the raw transplant material that's needed and (other than training up more surgeons) it's free. Then we can argue about whether the NHS has the financial resources to use them all. At the moment they use all they're given and ration according to the most-successful-outcome-based guidelines.
I did not deliberately ignore you.
No, people don't own dead bodies unless they are willed to medical science.
Have you seen the Chinese system of harvesting?
Get rid of the assumption that people own dead bodies and reverse the opt-in for organ donation to an opt-out. That caters for those with religious or cultural objections, it provide all the raw transplant material that's needed and (other than training up more surgeons) it's free. Then we can argue about whether the NHS has the financial resources to use them all. At the moment they use all they're given and ration according to the most-successful-outcome-based guidelines.
I did not deliberately ignore you.
No, people don't own dead bodies unless they are willed to medical science.
Have you seen the Chinese system of harvesting?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219903 wrote: I did not deliberately ignore you.
No, people don't own dead bodies unless they are willed to medical science.
Have you seen the Chinese system of harvesting?The current position is that people are invariably assumed to have complete control over the disposal of their own body after death. I think society has more call on the remaining utility the unspecified might provide instead of assuming no permission as the default.
I've seen some pretty vile racist-inspired exaggeration of China's rules which I'd much prefer to leave in the gutter where it belongs. What had you in mind and why do you think it's true?
No, people don't own dead bodies unless they are willed to medical science.
Have you seen the Chinese system of harvesting?The current position is that people are invariably assumed to have complete control over the disposal of their own body after death. I think society has more call on the remaining utility the unspecified might provide instead of assuming no permission as the default.
I've seen some pretty vile racist-inspired exaggeration of China's rules which I'd much prefer to leave in the gutter where it belongs. What had you in mind and why do you think it's true?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Why was he left to die?
spot;1219905 wrote: The current position is that people are invariably assumed to have complete control over the disposal of their own body after death. I think society has more call on the remaining utility the unspecified might provide instead of assuming no permission as the default.
I've seen some pretty vile racist-inspired exaggeration of China's rules which I'd much prefer to leave in the gutter where it belongs. What had you in mind and why do you think it's true? Yes, i agree. It's a hypocritical scenario where un-caring relatives who have had no thought for the deceased in life, suddenly has a consience as to the outcome of their dead corpse.
China........ I was refering to this which made me ill when i read it.
China's hi-tech 'death van' where criminals are executed and then their organs are sold on black market | Mail Online
I've seen some pretty vile racist-inspired exaggeration of China's rules which I'd much prefer to leave in the gutter where it belongs. What had you in mind and why do you think it's true? Yes, i agree. It's a hypocritical scenario where un-caring relatives who have had no thought for the deceased in life, suddenly has a consience as to the outcome of their dead corpse.
China........ I was refering to this which made me ill when i read it.
China's hi-tech 'death van' where criminals are executed and then their organs are sold on black market | Mail Online
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Why was he left to die?
Today's Daily Mail.
There is a photograph of Gary Reinbach that is somehow more startling than the one of him on his hospital deathbed, swollen and yellowed from alcohol abuse at the age of 22.
In it, he is perhaps ten years old, leaping high in his martial arts robes. It's a poignant image of the youngster, frozen for ever in mid-air, his body strong and purposeful and his face a study in determination.
'He loved his Tae Kwon Do,' recalls his mother, Madeline, as she paces the living room in that aimless way of the recently bereaved. 'He was brilliant, too. They said he was nearly ready to do his black belt, and if he'd got it, it would make him the youngest black belt in the country.'
Cut short: Gary Reinbach in hospital with mother Madeline before his death on Monday
Of course, it never quite worked out like that. Gary did make headlines because of his youth, but his 'achievement' was not something to make any mother proud.
He died on Monday of liver failure, denied a potentially life-saving transplant because he was an alcoholic seemingly hell-bent on self-destruction.
Just the day before he died, his mother had gone public about his plight, pleading that the strict rules surrounding transplants for those who abuse alcohol be relaxed, to give him some hope of life.
In the event, it was too little, too late.
'The story of my life,' she shrugs, bitterly.
Her first child, born on her birthday 22 years ago and 'the best present anyone could ever have wanted', passed away as she watched, by his side, in hospital.
His family are now wondering if he was the youngest alcoholic in this country to die from his addiction. Doctors certainly confirm his was one of the worst cases of cirrhosis of the liver in a young person that they have seen.
There is so much that is difficult to stomach about this story. The questions raised about organ transplant policy are certainly complex ones. Gary was turned down because he wasn't able to prove to doctors that he had the drive and determination to stop drinking, simply because he was too ill to actually leave hospital. His mother finds this unacceptable.
Full of hope: Gary at three
'They were playing God, making an example of him,' she cries.
'They had decided to write him off, like so many people did in his life. I know he did this to himself but, my God, if it was their child, they would be talking about second chances. Doesn't everyone deserve a second chance?'
Of course, Madeline won't get a second chance at being Gary's mum, and this is the most difficult subject of all.
The 'beautiful boy' she is today weeping about was just 13 when he started drinking cheap cider in the local park, and 16 when he got to the stage of needing half a bottle of vodka to get out of bed.
The more she details his descent into this madness - she chain-smokes through jaw-dropping stories of his truancy, his problems with authority, his penchant for getting involved with 'a bad crowd' - the more pressing the question becomes: where was she in all this? What sort of a mother allows things to go so far that there is no return?
There is an astonishing moment during our interview when I try to confirm how much Gary was drinking every day. By this point, the room is full of those who knew him best - father, mother, brothers, cousin, friend - but there are shrugs all round.
Then his father, also called Gary, says: 'When he was in hospital he told me he was getting through three bottles of vodka a day, then moving on to Special Brew strong lager.'
Madeline is still in denial.
'He didn't mean three bottles all by himself. He couldn't have. Could he? No one could drink that. It's not physically possible.'
After our interview, Madeline is going to collect Gary's body from the hospital mortuary and get the funeral preparations under way.
She breaks down when she describes how she wanted him to be buried in his favourite trainers - 'You know what lads are like. They love their trainers' - but has been told it is not possible because Gary's feet, like the rest of him, are hideously deformed and swollen.
The whole thing beggars belief. In a little over a decade, the little boy who had the world at his feet, had destroyed his own body. Why? Sadly, it appears that the explanation of why Gary never got his black belt must be where this story begins.
'Not long after that, me and his dad split up,' explains Madeline.
Happy families: Gary with younger brothers Luke and Tyler
'There wasn't the money for the Tae Kwon Do lessons. We had to move, too, and I can't drive. It was two buses then a walk to the classes. I couldn't do it. I said: "Gary, things are going to be different now." '
Was he upset?
'Of course he was. But he never said that much. That was the thing with Gary, right to the end. He kept a lot in and he kept other people out. Even me, I suppose. If he was really down and I said: "Come on, give us a cuddle," he might let me, but mostly he put the barriers up. I don't know why.'
He was the oldest of three boys, all born to Madeline and Gary Snr when they lived in happier times - and better financial circumstances - in East Ham, East London.
Gary Snr worked as an electrician, Madeline was a full-time mum. They bought Gary's parents' modest home, and while life was never affluent, they survived.
When Gary was ten, however, his father started a new life with another woman, whom he hated. Overnight, his life was turned upside-down.
His mother and father debate who he was angrier with, and it seems to have been a close run thing.
Playing dad: Both of Gary's younger brothers tried to reason with him to stop drinking. He refused, often abusively
'He never really forgave me for splitting up the family,' his dad says quietly.
'Maybe I hadn't been the best dad. I'd worked every hour there was and I didn't see enough of the boys. Gary was always sensitive about stuff like that.
'When we split, I tried to see them every other weekend, but Gary didn't want to know.
'For years it was difficult. He shut me out. I had a completely different relationship with the other two. If they were upset, I could talk to them. Gary didn't want to know. We patched it up now and then, but never really properly. Before he died, we hadn't spoken for two years.'
Madeline had her own complex relationship with her son.
'When we split, I moved us out of the family home and away from everything he knew, and he blamed me for that. I wanted to start again, somewhere new. My son didn't understand. He had to leave his friends. It was a step down.'
By the time they settled here in Dagenham, Madeline had secured a full-time job, working in the shop of a London university. In some circles it is a crazy woman who even considers full-time work without organised childcare, but she insists she had no choice but to pretty much let the kids fend for themselves until she came home from work.
Deteriorating: Gary, swollen and yellowed from alcohol abuse at the age of 22
'No, I wasn't there when they came home from school,' she says, defensively. 'But that was because I was working. What was I supposed to do? I needed to keep a roof over our heads. They needed to eat. I guess I could have sat around sponging off the state, but that's never been me.'
That it was hard is clear. That she feels she failed her children is also obvious.
'It was always a treadmill,' Madeline admits, though tears. 'I had no money. State help? You must be joking. I had to work then come home, cook, clean, run after three boys. And do you know how much boys eat? It was hard.
'I could only do it if I was in bed by 10pm, so I was most nights. And my son Gary? Well, he wasn't in himself by that time mostly. He fended for himself a lot.'
A busy mother's lament, for sure, but can she really claim to have been a responsible parent in allowing her son so much freedom at such a vulnerable time in his life? She insists that she didn't know her son was drinking by the age of 13.
'Of course I didn't. He was going to the park to play.'
Vilified: Madeline insists she loved her son and denies any negligence
By the time Gary was 15, though, she did know.
'I remember he came in one day and I knew he was drunk. There was big row. He told me all the kids were doing it and to back off. They were, too. It wasn't just Gary. It was the norm. They'd sit there in the park, the older ones buying drink for the younger ones. I wasn't happy, no, but what can you do?'
Gary Snr shrugs again.
'To be honest, this is drug country. We were more worried about heroin. Alcohol? It's bad, but it's not that bad. When Madeline would say he'd gone off on one again, I thought it was just a matter of time till he calmed down. Boys are boys; they drink a bottle of cider behind the bike sheds. I thought it was nothing more.'
Both parents admit they drink occasionally, but not to excess.
Madeline adds: 'I'd have the odd glass of wine at a party, but nothing on that scale.'
Where did Gary get the money for drink, though? Apart from a short-lived job, he had been on benefits.
'At first, older boys would buy it, I suppose,' says his mum. 'Then, his benefits. I don't know really.'
Gary's slide into alcoholism sounds impossibly quick, even to his mother.
'One minute we were having a shouting match because he was drunk. The next - and this is how it seems to me now - he was needing a drink to get out of bed in the morning.
Out of control: By the age of 16, Gary got to the stage of needing half a bottle of vodka just to get out of bed
'The older he got, the more he refused to listen. He and his friends would drink openly in the living room. I'd come home and it would be a case of, "Oh, hell! Here she comes."'
Again, we come back to her role. Why did she allow it? Why was she not creating merry hell?
'I did try grounding him. Once, I locked him in his bedroom but he climbed out the window and was off.
'He was gone for three days. I nearly went off my head. His dad came down from Yorkshire - where he had moved - to help me look for him.
'We found him eventually, camping out. That was the end of the grounding. I worried that if he ran off next time, we wouldn't get him back.'
He was obviously a child out of control. Gary's brothers nod as she describes how Gary dictated household events. Both of his younger brothers tried to reason with him to stop drinking. He refused, often abusively.
His behaviour sounds almost feral. His 18-year-old brother Liam - also chain-smoking - speaks for the first time.
'I think when Dad went, he thought he was the man of the house and wanted to show us all that he could do whatever he wanted. We'd say: "Gary, enough is enough," but he wouldn't listen.'
If he was lost to his own family, he was also lost in the social system that is supposed to protect boys like him. At one point Madeline tells me she once discovered Gary had not attended school for a time. How long are we talking, I ask? A week?
'Six months,' comes the reply. She insists the school didn't contact her to discuss the matter, which seems impossible, but she is adamant.
'Oh, he'd been in trouble before and I'd be down there. He was suspended once, twice - I can't remember why exactly. Just being disruptive.
'That time with the truancy, I only found out because he told me. We were having a row and he threw it in there, saying: "What do you know? You don't even know that I haven't been going to school."
I went up to the school about it. But nothing changed. It never did.
Failed: Gary skipped school for six months before his mother found out
'They tried a bit. They locked him in one of the rooms they use for kids who play truant all the time, but he got out; he always did. Eventually he was expelled. The school just wanted to be rid of him. They wrote him off as a troublemaker and that was that.'
His father has his own guilt about how much he was there for Gary. 'We have asked ourselves if his drinking was because of us. Maybe it was. I think he drank to escape. But he was just a kid, for God's sake. He needed help.'
Madeline talks about it taking months for her to convince Gary - by then with yellow eyes, swigging vodka openly in the house at all times of the day and night and being physically sick every morning - to go to his GP.
I ask if she discussed her son's problems with the GP. Presumably they had the same doctor?
'Well, you know, you always see different doctors at the practice,' she says vaguely.
'I was in seeing one of them one day and, funnily enough, he did ask how Gary was doing. I reckoned he must have seen him before. By that point Gary was not good at all and in hospital.'
When help came - in the form of a team of liver specialists, who were horrified by how far gone Gary's condition was - it was too late. A transplant was his only hope, but he was denied it.
'The doctors treating him pushed for it, because they could see that underneath it all Gary was a fighter. One of them told us they had written a six-page letter arguing that he should have a transplant.
'They arranged this groundbreaking treatment with an artificial liver from the States. It didn't work. But they pulled out all the stops.
'The pen-pushers stopped it all, though. They said: "No exceptions." Gary was devastated.'
Did Gary know he was going to die?
'Yes,' Madeline sobs. 'He told me: "I don't want to die, Mum." All that bravado of his was gone. He said: "I didn't know I was doing this to myself."
'People say how could he not have known, but he was a child. Like so many other youngsters who drink, he never understood the consequences.'
He was admitted to hospital ten weeks ago, and was, by all accounts, a model patient.
'You see them all, the other patients, outside, smoking fags when they aren't allowed to. Gary asked the doctors if he could smoke. They said no, so he didn't. He did everything they told him.
World at his feet: What is most tragic of all is that the life Gary did have once seemed to have such potential
'By the end he was talking about how he was sick of the life he'd been leading. He was talking college, getting a job, all the things he should've been doing.'
On Saturday, just as she had gone public about the family's dreadful situation, Gary's health deteriorated.
'I rushed up there. Things were bad. They had to get a tube down him to drain the fluid from his lungs and they'd always told me that if that happened, it was near the end.
'Gary knew it, too. He was distressed. I sat with him and held him. I tried to calm him. They had to put him under sedation. I said: "It's OK, Mummy's here." He never came round again. When they turned the machines off...'
She can't get the rest of the words out, so Gary's father takes over. For all their difficulties they are sitting together now, taking comfort in the fact that, at the end, they had their boy back.
'Even with all the bloating and horrible stuff, you could see Gary as he had been when he was little, couldn't you?' asks Gary Snr as his ex-wife nods furiously.
'He was lying there with his little tongue out like he used to do when he was concentrating. I will always remember that. He was our boy back.'
Were they bad parents, who were ultimately responsible for this? The question seems unduly harsh in the circumstances, but people are asking it. On internet postings, Madeline has been particularly vilified, with some even suggesting she was criminally negligent.
'People are so quick to judge,' she retorts. 'Well, let them come and walk in my shoes and see if they could do much better. I loved my son as much as any mum could. He was my first-born, my baby, and he deserved so much more.''
Did she fail him? She nods. 'I did my best, but I got it wrong and here we are.' Her ex-husband looks at the floor.
Frankly, whatever the couple's shortcomings, they are not the only ones who may have failed Gary Reinbach. There are plenty of places to point the finger - his school, his so-called friends, the system that is supposed to catch kids like him before they fall - before you get to the transplant co-ordinators who refused him the chance of a new life.
What is most tragic of all is that the life he did have once seemed to have such potential.
There is a photograph of Gary Reinbach that is somehow more startling than the one of him on his hospital deathbed, swollen and yellowed from alcohol abuse at the age of 22.
In it, he is perhaps ten years old, leaping high in his martial arts robes. It's a poignant image of the youngster, frozen for ever in mid-air, his body strong and purposeful and his face a study in determination.
'He loved his Tae Kwon Do,' recalls his mother, Madeline, as she paces the living room in that aimless way of the recently bereaved. 'He was brilliant, too. They said he was nearly ready to do his black belt, and if he'd got it, it would make him the youngest black belt in the country.'
Cut short: Gary Reinbach in hospital with mother Madeline before his death on Monday
Of course, it never quite worked out like that. Gary did make headlines because of his youth, but his 'achievement' was not something to make any mother proud.
He died on Monday of liver failure, denied a potentially life-saving transplant because he was an alcoholic seemingly hell-bent on self-destruction.
Just the day before he died, his mother had gone public about his plight, pleading that the strict rules surrounding transplants for those who abuse alcohol be relaxed, to give him some hope of life.
In the event, it was too little, too late.
'The story of my life,' she shrugs, bitterly.
Her first child, born on her birthday 22 years ago and 'the best present anyone could ever have wanted', passed away as she watched, by his side, in hospital.
His family are now wondering if he was the youngest alcoholic in this country to die from his addiction. Doctors certainly confirm his was one of the worst cases of cirrhosis of the liver in a young person that they have seen.
There is so much that is difficult to stomach about this story. The questions raised about organ transplant policy are certainly complex ones. Gary was turned down because he wasn't able to prove to doctors that he had the drive and determination to stop drinking, simply because he was too ill to actually leave hospital. His mother finds this unacceptable.
Full of hope: Gary at three
'They were playing God, making an example of him,' she cries.
'They had decided to write him off, like so many people did in his life. I know he did this to himself but, my God, if it was their child, they would be talking about second chances. Doesn't everyone deserve a second chance?'
Of course, Madeline won't get a second chance at being Gary's mum, and this is the most difficult subject of all.
The 'beautiful boy' she is today weeping about was just 13 when he started drinking cheap cider in the local park, and 16 when he got to the stage of needing half a bottle of vodka to get out of bed.
The more she details his descent into this madness - she chain-smokes through jaw-dropping stories of his truancy, his problems with authority, his penchant for getting involved with 'a bad crowd' - the more pressing the question becomes: where was she in all this? What sort of a mother allows things to go so far that there is no return?
There is an astonishing moment during our interview when I try to confirm how much Gary was drinking every day. By this point, the room is full of those who knew him best - father, mother, brothers, cousin, friend - but there are shrugs all round.
Then his father, also called Gary, says: 'When he was in hospital he told me he was getting through three bottles of vodka a day, then moving on to Special Brew strong lager.'
Madeline is still in denial.
'He didn't mean three bottles all by himself. He couldn't have. Could he? No one could drink that. It's not physically possible.'
After our interview, Madeline is going to collect Gary's body from the hospital mortuary and get the funeral preparations under way.
She breaks down when she describes how she wanted him to be buried in his favourite trainers - 'You know what lads are like. They love their trainers' - but has been told it is not possible because Gary's feet, like the rest of him, are hideously deformed and swollen.
The whole thing beggars belief. In a little over a decade, the little boy who had the world at his feet, had destroyed his own body. Why? Sadly, it appears that the explanation of why Gary never got his black belt must be where this story begins.
'Not long after that, me and his dad split up,' explains Madeline.
Happy families: Gary with younger brothers Luke and Tyler
'There wasn't the money for the Tae Kwon Do lessons. We had to move, too, and I can't drive. It was two buses then a walk to the classes. I couldn't do it. I said: "Gary, things are going to be different now." '
Was he upset?
'Of course he was. But he never said that much. That was the thing with Gary, right to the end. He kept a lot in and he kept other people out. Even me, I suppose. If he was really down and I said: "Come on, give us a cuddle," he might let me, but mostly he put the barriers up. I don't know why.'
He was the oldest of three boys, all born to Madeline and Gary Snr when they lived in happier times - and better financial circumstances - in East Ham, East London.
Gary Snr worked as an electrician, Madeline was a full-time mum. They bought Gary's parents' modest home, and while life was never affluent, they survived.
When Gary was ten, however, his father started a new life with another woman, whom he hated. Overnight, his life was turned upside-down.
His mother and father debate who he was angrier with, and it seems to have been a close run thing.
Playing dad: Both of Gary's younger brothers tried to reason with him to stop drinking. He refused, often abusively
'He never really forgave me for splitting up the family,' his dad says quietly.
'Maybe I hadn't been the best dad. I'd worked every hour there was and I didn't see enough of the boys. Gary was always sensitive about stuff like that.
'When we split, I tried to see them every other weekend, but Gary didn't want to know.
'For years it was difficult. He shut me out. I had a completely different relationship with the other two. If they were upset, I could talk to them. Gary didn't want to know. We patched it up now and then, but never really properly. Before he died, we hadn't spoken for two years.'
Madeline had her own complex relationship with her son.
'When we split, I moved us out of the family home and away from everything he knew, and he blamed me for that. I wanted to start again, somewhere new. My son didn't understand. He had to leave his friends. It was a step down.'
By the time they settled here in Dagenham, Madeline had secured a full-time job, working in the shop of a London university. In some circles it is a crazy woman who even considers full-time work without organised childcare, but she insists she had no choice but to pretty much let the kids fend for themselves until she came home from work.
Deteriorating: Gary, swollen and yellowed from alcohol abuse at the age of 22
'No, I wasn't there when they came home from school,' she says, defensively. 'But that was because I was working. What was I supposed to do? I needed to keep a roof over our heads. They needed to eat. I guess I could have sat around sponging off the state, but that's never been me.'
That it was hard is clear. That she feels she failed her children is also obvious.
'It was always a treadmill,' Madeline admits, though tears. 'I had no money. State help? You must be joking. I had to work then come home, cook, clean, run after three boys. And do you know how much boys eat? It was hard.
'I could only do it if I was in bed by 10pm, so I was most nights. And my son Gary? Well, he wasn't in himself by that time mostly. He fended for himself a lot.'
A busy mother's lament, for sure, but can she really claim to have been a responsible parent in allowing her son so much freedom at such a vulnerable time in his life? She insists that she didn't know her son was drinking by the age of 13.
'Of course I didn't. He was going to the park to play.'
Vilified: Madeline insists she loved her son and denies any negligence
By the time Gary was 15, though, she did know.
'I remember he came in one day and I knew he was drunk. There was big row. He told me all the kids were doing it and to back off. They were, too. It wasn't just Gary. It was the norm. They'd sit there in the park, the older ones buying drink for the younger ones. I wasn't happy, no, but what can you do?'
Gary Snr shrugs again.
'To be honest, this is drug country. We were more worried about heroin. Alcohol? It's bad, but it's not that bad. When Madeline would say he'd gone off on one again, I thought it was just a matter of time till he calmed down. Boys are boys; they drink a bottle of cider behind the bike sheds. I thought it was nothing more.'
Both parents admit they drink occasionally, but not to excess.
Madeline adds: 'I'd have the odd glass of wine at a party, but nothing on that scale.'
Where did Gary get the money for drink, though? Apart from a short-lived job, he had been on benefits.
'At first, older boys would buy it, I suppose,' says his mum. 'Then, his benefits. I don't know really.'
Gary's slide into alcoholism sounds impossibly quick, even to his mother.
'One minute we were having a shouting match because he was drunk. The next - and this is how it seems to me now - he was needing a drink to get out of bed in the morning.
Out of control: By the age of 16, Gary got to the stage of needing half a bottle of vodka just to get out of bed
'The older he got, the more he refused to listen. He and his friends would drink openly in the living room. I'd come home and it would be a case of, "Oh, hell! Here she comes."'
Again, we come back to her role. Why did she allow it? Why was she not creating merry hell?
'I did try grounding him. Once, I locked him in his bedroom but he climbed out the window and was off.
'He was gone for three days. I nearly went off my head. His dad came down from Yorkshire - where he had moved - to help me look for him.
'We found him eventually, camping out. That was the end of the grounding. I worried that if he ran off next time, we wouldn't get him back.'
He was obviously a child out of control. Gary's brothers nod as she describes how Gary dictated household events. Both of his younger brothers tried to reason with him to stop drinking. He refused, often abusively.
His behaviour sounds almost feral. His 18-year-old brother Liam - also chain-smoking - speaks for the first time.
'I think when Dad went, he thought he was the man of the house and wanted to show us all that he could do whatever he wanted. We'd say: "Gary, enough is enough," but he wouldn't listen.'
If he was lost to his own family, he was also lost in the social system that is supposed to protect boys like him. At one point Madeline tells me she once discovered Gary had not attended school for a time. How long are we talking, I ask? A week?
'Six months,' comes the reply. She insists the school didn't contact her to discuss the matter, which seems impossible, but she is adamant.
'Oh, he'd been in trouble before and I'd be down there. He was suspended once, twice - I can't remember why exactly. Just being disruptive.
'That time with the truancy, I only found out because he told me. We were having a row and he threw it in there, saying: "What do you know? You don't even know that I haven't been going to school."
I went up to the school about it. But nothing changed. It never did.
Failed: Gary skipped school for six months before his mother found out
'They tried a bit. They locked him in one of the rooms they use for kids who play truant all the time, but he got out; he always did. Eventually he was expelled. The school just wanted to be rid of him. They wrote him off as a troublemaker and that was that.'
His father has his own guilt about how much he was there for Gary. 'We have asked ourselves if his drinking was because of us. Maybe it was. I think he drank to escape. But he was just a kid, for God's sake. He needed help.'
Madeline talks about it taking months for her to convince Gary - by then with yellow eyes, swigging vodka openly in the house at all times of the day and night and being physically sick every morning - to go to his GP.
I ask if she discussed her son's problems with the GP. Presumably they had the same doctor?
'Well, you know, you always see different doctors at the practice,' she says vaguely.
'I was in seeing one of them one day and, funnily enough, he did ask how Gary was doing. I reckoned he must have seen him before. By that point Gary was not good at all and in hospital.'
When help came - in the form of a team of liver specialists, who were horrified by how far gone Gary's condition was - it was too late. A transplant was his only hope, but he was denied it.
'The doctors treating him pushed for it, because they could see that underneath it all Gary was a fighter. One of them told us they had written a six-page letter arguing that he should have a transplant.
'They arranged this groundbreaking treatment with an artificial liver from the States. It didn't work. But they pulled out all the stops.
'The pen-pushers stopped it all, though. They said: "No exceptions." Gary was devastated.'
Did Gary know he was going to die?
'Yes,' Madeline sobs. 'He told me: "I don't want to die, Mum." All that bravado of his was gone. He said: "I didn't know I was doing this to myself."
'People say how could he not have known, but he was a child. Like so many other youngsters who drink, he never understood the consequences.'
He was admitted to hospital ten weeks ago, and was, by all accounts, a model patient.
'You see them all, the other patients, outside, smoking fags when they aren't allowed to. Gary asked the doctors if he could smoke. They said no, so he didn't. He did everything they told him.
World at his feet: What is most tragic of all is that the life Gary did have once seemed to have such potential
'By the end he was talking about how he was sick of the life he'd been leading. He was talking college, getting a job, all the things he should've been doing.'
On Saturday, just as she had gone public about the family's dreadful situation, Gary's health deteriorated.
'I rushed up there. Things were bad. They had to get a tube down him to drain the fluid from his lungs and they'd always told me that if that happened, it was near the end.
'Gary knew it, too. He was distressed. I sat with him and held him. I tried to calm him. They had to put him under sedation. I said: "It's OK, Mummy's here." He never came round again. When they turned the machines off...'
She can't get the rest of the words out, so Gary's father takes over. For all their difficulties they are sitting together now, taking comfort in the fact that, at the end, they had their boy back.
'Even with all the bloating and horrible stuff, you could see Gary as he had been when he was little, couldn't you?' asks Gary Snr as his ex-wife nods furiously.
'He was lying there with his little tongue out like he used to do when he was concentrating. I will always remember that. He was our boy back.'
Were they bad parents, who were ultimately responsible for this? The question seems unduly harsh in the circumstances, but people are asking it. On internet postings, Madeline has been particularly vilified, with some even suggesting she was criminally negligent.
'People are so quick to judge,' she retorts. 'Well, let them come and walk in my shoes and see if they could do much better. I loved my son as much as any mum could. He was my first-born, my baby, and he deserved so much more.''
Did she fail him? She nods. 'I did my best, but I got it wrong and here we are.' Her ex-husband looks at the floor.
Frankly, whatever the couple's shortcomings, they are not the only ones who may have failed Gary Reinbach. There are plenty of places to point the finger - his school, his so-called friends, the system that is supposed to catch kids like him before they fall - before you get to the transplant co-ordinators who refused him the chance of a new life.
What is most tragic of all is that the life he did have once seemed to have such potential.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
BBC NEWS | Health | Private transplants to be banned is relevant.more than 700 transplants, mostly liver transplants, had been carried out on non-UK patients over the past decade. In total, 631 of those transplants used organs from dead donors and, of those, 314 were from outside the EU. It is not clear how many of those paid privately.All organ donations in the UK are freely given, it's reasonable to say that they're for use within the population that's donating and that, being freely given, they have to be freely available.
The new NHS position that none of them can be used in private practice seems fair enough on the face of it but that makes a new departure for the UK health system. Ever since the NHS was created people have had a choice to pay privately if the prefer to. Eliminating all access to any legal organs stops the possibility of going private for a transplant and I can't see that it's a justifiable change, it's tabloid media pressure once again forcing policy decisions.
If the freely-donated organs are unavailable for private operations then perhaps the new position needs to be taken further to one in which the private system can buy organs for transplant which aren't part of the free donor resource.
Personally I prefer the original state of affairs. The number of organs made available from the free donors for private transplants was much in line with the proportion of people opting for private treatment, I see no harm in that. Caving to tabloid headlines has been, as usual, a mistake.
The new NHS position that none of them can be used in private practice seems fair enough on the face of it but that makes a new departure for the UK health system. Ever since the NHS was created people have had a choice to pay privately if the prefer to. Eliminating all access to any legal organs stops the possibility of going private for a transplant and I can't see that it's a justifiable change, it's tabloid media pressure once again forcing policy decisions.
If the freely-donated organs are unavailable for private operations then perhaps the new position needs to be taken further to one in which the private system can buy organs for transplant which aren't part of the free donor resource.
Personally I prefer the original state of affairs. The number of organs made available from the free donors for private transplants was much in line with the proportion of people opting for private treatment, I see no harm in that. Caving to tabloid headlines has been, as usual, a mistake.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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Why was he left to die?
spot;1223440 wrote: BBC NEWS | Health | Private transplants to be banned is relevant.more than 700 transplants, mostly liver transplants, had been carried out on non-UK patients over the past decade. In total, 631 of those transplants used organs from dead donors and, of those, 314 were from outside the EU. It is not clear how many of those paid privately.All organ donations in the UK are freely given, it's reasonable to say that they're for use within the population that's donating and that, being freely given, they have to be freely available.
The new NHS position that none of them can be used in private practice seems fair enough on the face of it but that makes a new departure for the UK health system. Ever since the NHS was created people have had a choice to pay privately if the prefer to. Eliminating all access to any legal organs stops the possibility of going private for a transplant and I can't see that it's a justifiable change, it's tabloid media pressure once again forcing policy decisions.
If the freely-donated organs are unavailable for private operations then perhaps the new position needs to be taken further to one in which the private system can buy organs for transplant which aren't part of the free donor resource.
Personally I prefer the original state of affairs. The number of organs made available from the free donors for private transplants was much in line with the proportion of people opting for private treatment, I see no harm in that. Caving to tabloid headlines has been, as usual, a mistake.
Organ Transplants: Government To Announce Ban On NHS Organs Being Used In Private Operations | UK News | Sky News
I agree with you.
The new NHS position that none of them can be used in private practice seems fair enough on the face of it but that makes a new departure for the UK health system. Ever since the NHS was created people have had a choice to pay privately if the prefer to. Eliminating all access to any legal organs stops the possibility of going private for a transplant and I can't see that it's a justifiable change, it's tabloid media pressure once again forcing policy decisions.
If the freely-donated organs are unavailable for private operations then perhaps the new position needs to be taken further to one in which the private system can buy organs for transplant which aren't part of the free donor resource.
Personally I prefer the original state of affairs. The number of organs made available from the free donors for private transplants was much in line with the proportion of people opting for private treatment, I see no harm in that. Caving to tabloid headlines has been, as usual, a mistake.
Organ Transplants: Government To Announce Ban On NHS Organs Being Used In Private Operations | UK News | Sky News
I agree with you.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Why was he left to die?
spot;1223440 wrote: BBC NEWS | Health | Private transplants to be banned is relevant.more than 700 transplants, mostly liver transplants, had been carried out on non-UK patients over the past decade. In total, 631 of those transplants used organs from dead donors and, of those, 314 were from outside the EU. It is not clear how many of those paid privately.All organ donations in the UK are freely given, it's reasonable to say that they're for use within the population that's donating and that, being freely given, they have to be freely available.
The new NHS position that none of them can be used in private practice seems fair enough on the face of it but that makes a new departure for the UK health system. Ever since the NHS was created people have had a choice to pay privately if the prefer to. Eliminating all access to any legal organs stops the possibility of going private for a transplant and I can't see that it's a justifiable change, it's tabloid media pressure once again forcing policy decisions.
If the freely-donated organs are unavailable for private operations then perhaps the new position needs to be taken further to one in which the private system can buy organs for transplant which aren't part of the free donor resource.
Personally I prefer the original state of affairs. The number of organs made available from the free donors for private transplants was much in line with the proportion of people opting for private treatment, I see no harm in that. Caving to tabloid headlines has been, as usual, a mistake.
You have got to be kidding. People donate their organs to help others-to then have it sold on for profit is obscene especially if there are people on the NHS waiting list. If someone wants to jump the queue by going privately that is up to them but they cannot expect to benefit from the generosity of others. It's even more obscene that they would go to someone from outside the country who has never contributed to the NHS.
It may be a new departure but it's a relatively safe bet that it would not have occurred to anyone donating that their organ would have been used in that way. If asked do you really think those donating would be happy to know their organ would be sold on to the highest bidder?
The new NHS position that none of them can be used in private practice seems fair enough on the face of it but that makes a new departure for the UK health system. Ever since the NHS was created people have had a choice to pay privately if the prefer to. Eliminating all access to any legal organs stops the possibility of going private for a transplant and I can't see that it's a justifiable change, it's tabloid media pressure once again forcing policy decisions.
If the freely-donated organs are unavailable for private operations then perhaps the new position needs to be taken further to one in which the private system can buy organs for transplant which aren't part of the free donor resource.
Personally I prefer the original state of affairs. The number of organs made available from the free donors for private transplants was much in line with the proportion of people opting for private treatment, I see no harm in that. Caving to tabloid headlines has been, as usual, a mistake.
You have got to be kidding. People donate their organs to help others-to then have it sold on for profit is obscene especially if there are people on the NHS waiting list. If someone wants to jump the queue by going privately that is up to them but they cannot expect to benefit from the generosity of others. It's even more obscene that they would go to someone from outside the country who has never contributed to the NHS.
It may be a new departure but it's a relatively safe bet that it would not have occurred to anyone donating that their organ would have been used in that way. If asked do you really think those donating would be happy to know their organ would be sold on to the highest bidder?
Why was he left to die?
gmc;1223654 wrote: You have got to be kidding. People donate their organs to help others-to then have it sold on for profit is obscene especially if there are people on the NHS waiting list. If someone wants to jump the queue by going privately that is up to them but they cannot expect to benefit from the generosity of others. It's even more obscene that they would go to someone from outside the country who has never contributed to the NHS.
It may be a new departure but it's a relatively safe bet that it would not have occurred to anyone donating that their organ would have been used in that way. If asked do you really think those donating would be happy to know their organ would be sold on to the highest bidder?
I thought I'd dealt with that in "perhaps the new position needs to be taken further to one in which the private system can buy organs for transplant which aren't part of the free donor resource". It's a nasty solution for a lot of reasons which is why I'd rather we didn't go down that route. Cutting the private sector off from all access to any legal organs seems Draconian and that's what the new state of affairs seems to have brought in.
It may be a new departure but it's a relatively safe bet that it would not have occurred to anyone donating that their organ would have been used in that way. If asked do you really think those donating would be happy to know their organ would be sold on to the highest bidder?
I thought I'd dealt with that in "perhaps the new position needs to be taken further to one in which the private system can buy organs for transplant which aren't part of the free donor resource". It's a nasty solution for a lot of reasons which is why I'd rather we didn't go down that route. Cutting the private sector off from all access to any legal organs seems Draconian and that's what the new state of affairs seems to have brought in.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Why was he left to die?
spot;1223674 wrote: I thought I'd dealt with that in "perhaps the new position needs to be taken further to one in which the private system can buy organs for transplant which aren't part of the free donor resource". It's a nasty solution for a lot of reasons which is why I'd rather we didn't go down that route. Cutting the private sector off from all access to any legal organs seems Draconian and that's what the new state of affairs seems to have brought in.
Who in their right mind would want to sell their organs? there's already a market with poverty stricken people selling their organs and there are already instances of people being attacked and their organs taken against their will. If people know that there is a possibility that their freely given organs will be sold to the highest bidder then the number giving freely will drop away-at least IMO. I would be an organ donor but if I thought that is what would happen I would object strongly to the possibility. It goes against the whole point of he NHS where all have access and the rich cannot just get preferential treatment. I would find it outrageous.
Mind you I don't have a noce simple solution to the problem to propose.
Who in their right mind would want to sell their organs? there's already a market with poverty stricken people selling their organs and there are already instances of people being attacked and their organs taken against their will. If people know that there is a possibility that their freely given organs will be sold to the highest bidder then the number giving freely will drop away-at least IMO. I would be an organ donor but if I thought that is what would happen I would object strongly to the possibility. It goes against the whole point of he NHS where all have access and the rich cannot just get preferential treatment. I would find it outrageous.
Mind you I don't have a noce simple solution to the problem to propose.
Why was he left to die?
gmc;1223953 wrote: Mind you I don't have a noce simple solution to the problem to propose.What's wrong with opt-out instead of opt-in?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Why was he left to die?
spot;1223954 wrote: What's wrong with opt-out instead of opt-in?
Nothing imo-I have no problem with that but many religious people will just as some find cremation repugnant. One other present day issue is if someone is carrying a donor card there should be no further need for consent from next of kin. (correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is next of kin are still required to give consent.) Many people object and will refuse consent regardless of what the deceased actually wanted. Wouldn't be a problem now but before I was married my next of kin was my mother who found the whole idea repugnant. Never mind my wishes she would have refused consent despite my making clear to her what I wanted.
I suppose there is the fear that some doctors will be tempted to be less than scrupulous in making the decision as to when someone is dead-especially if there additional money to be made.
Nothing imo-I have no problem with that but many religious people will just as some find cremation repugnant. One other present day issue is if someone is carrying a donor card there should be no further need for consent from next of kin. (correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is next of kin are still required to give consent.) Many people object and will refuse consent regardless of what the deceased actually wanted. Wouldn't be a problem now but before I was married my next of kin was my mother who found the whole idea repugnant. Never mind my wishes she would have refused consent despite my making clear to her what I wanted.
I suppose there is the fear that some doctors will be tempted to be less than scrupulous in making the decision as to when someone is dead-especially if there additional money to be made.
Why was he left to die?
oscar;1219431 wrote: Yes.
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
With so few organs available, it is common sense to match the organs to a person where the organ will have the best chance of contining to function. To give the organ to someone who might not survive the transplant operation or who will not follow the necessary procedures after receiving the transplant might be a total waste of organ, time, talent, etc.
If I was donating an organ, either while living or when dead, I want it to count for something. Just look to the animal kingdom. The weak are left to die so that the species remain healthy.
Sad as it is for this mother to lose her child, it would be unjustified for him to receive an organ over someone in better physical/mental health who is already where this other person hopes some day to be. With so few organs, they have to be made to count or else there might be fewer donated in the future.
In this case, i feel that the lad was not beyond all hope. At only 22 yrs old, there was a slim chance he could have become healthy and with help lived a normal life. If he had been 60 years old, then fine. 22 seems very young for someone to basically refuse him the right to live.
Then, where does it lead?
Smokers being refused treatment?
Alcoholics being refused treatment?
Dangerous sport activists being refused treatment when they break a leg?
Horse riders being refused treatment?
Car drivers and passengers being refused treatment.
People who go out in the snow being refused treament when they fall?
Overweight people being refused treatment?
Children born to parents with hereditary diseases being refused treatment.?
With so few organs available, it is common sense to match the organs to a person where the organ will have the best chance of contining to function. To give the organ to someone who might not survive the transplant operation or who will not follow the necessary procedures after receiving the transplant might be a total waste of organ, time, talent, etc.
If I was donating an organ, either while living or when dead, I want it to count for something. Just look to the animal kingdom. The weak are left to die so that the species remain healthy.
Sad as it is for this mother to lose her child, it would be unjustified for him to receive an organ over someone in better physical/mental health who is already where this other person hopes some day to be. With so few organs, they have to be made to count or else there might be fewer donated in the future.
"Out, damned spot! out, I say!"
- William Shakespeare, Macbeth, 5.1