Let's discuss Congress' Healthcare Plan

All items relating to Healthcare: Medical insurance, company policies, insurance coverage, policy costs, and more!
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Accountable;1218361 wrote: The difference is that I can accept or reject the benefits offered by the employer - benefits paid by the employer for services rendered, which can be taken away should I fail to deliver my end of the bargain.



I will not have that option with this new bill. I pay for as long as I have means to pay, whether or not I use, need, or even want the service. Should I need medical care, I have to take what the bureaucracy deems is warranted, regardless of what I want, truly need, or could have afforded had I been allowed to pay my own way.


Nomad;1218474 wrote: Forgive me for being unaware of all the details of the new plan. I dont know how you know all the details when theyre still throwing ideas around. My understanding at one point was if you recieved benefits through your employer nothing would change. Hes not trying to put Blue Cross Blue Shield out of business merely filling in the gaps that too many are falling through.



Could you provide some link to the idea you have that we will have no choices and benefits will be dictated to us as well as mandatory ?
Be as snarky as you wish. If you'll be honest with yourself, you'll see that any claim that "nothing would change" is BS on the face of it. How can it be possible to pick up the health insurance tab on tens of millions, raise taxes only on "the rich" (aka "the employers"), quadruple gov't spending without impacting the deficit, mandate the services an insurance company must offer,lower costs, increase quality, and still claim that the average American will see no change??? It just doesn't add up.



I'll try to get links for you, but you should be interested enough in a quantum change to the way our country operates to find these things out for yourself. It's on TV all the time on all networks.

I saw a video of Obama saying that though he once said that he didn't want to make the national system mandatory, he's since changed his mind.



Employers paying a greater percentage of total compensation to health care benefits - Wichita Business Journal:

Health insurance costs continue to drive up the amount employers pay for benefit plans, according to data from the U.S. Department of Labor.



In March, businesses spent 30 percent of employees’ total compensation on benefits.



Of that, employer costs for life, health, and disability insurance benefits averaged $2.52 per hour worked, or 8.6 percent of total compensation, for nonfarm private and state and local government workers, according to the March data.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/healt ... ealth.html

Employers who do not provide health insurance to workers would generally have to pay a fee or penalty to the government. The fee would be equal to 8 percent of wages for an employer with an annual payroll of more than $400,000.
If employers can save money by paying the gov't to insure their employees, they will do it. Maybe as you say, "if you recieved benefits through your employer nothing would change," but that's a HUGE if.
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Post by Nomad »

:wah:

I wasnt being snarky I simply asked for info, Jesus.

You make bold and vigorous assumptions, I guess the least you could expect would be an opposing view.

Heres the bottom line for me, my perspective focuses on contradictions and priorities.

It appears to me that your priority is geared towards less govt. spending.

Why arent you screaming about the cost of the war ? From beginning to end its been sucking us dry based on extremely questionable tactics and our motives have a huge black cloud bearing down on them.

Its costing us billions and lives are being terminated needlessly.

We pay. We all pay, thats what we do. Id much rather pay for the health and well being of our citizens than pay for the killing machine.

Why in ****s name is spending acceptable to eradicate life but not to protect it ?

Why in ****s name would anyone prioritize death over life ?

Why is your dollar more worthwhile feeding death than it is to make sure families can be assured good health.

Quite frankly I dont give a rats ass about money. Our govt. is criminally negligent with US tax dollars and for once at least the priority is based on basic fundamental human decency.

I can live with that.

Take your paycheck and squirrel it away. I hope that brings you the satisfaction you seek.
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Post by Accountable »

The war. We're wasting billions there, therefore we're justified wasting hundreds of billions everywhere else. Good argument.



The US Constution (yeh, that quaint relic of times past) places the military firmly under the jurisdiction of the federal government. It also places anything not specifically mentioned firmly under the jurisdiction of the states.



It's not the federal government's job to regulate healthcare, B. If you think it should, get an amendment passed.



My arguments against this travesty have never been about money, but liberty. I'm pretty sure that's clear.



___________



You asked for information. I gave you what I can find. It directly addresses your mistaken belief that "if you recieved benefits through your employer nothing would change." Any response along those lines?
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Post by masscraft »

Nomad;1218580 wrote: :wah:

I wasnt being snarky I simply asked for info, Jesus.

You make bold and vigorous assumptions, I guess the least you could expect would be an opposing view.

Heres the bottom line for me, my perspective focuses on contradictions and priorities.

It appears to me that your priority is geared towards less govt. spending.

Why arent you screaming about the cost of the war ? From beginning to end its been sucking us dry based on extremely questionable tactics and our motives have a huge black cloud bearing down on them.

Its costing us billions and lives are being terminated needlessly.

We pay. We all pay, thats what we do. Id much rather pay for the health and well being of our citizens than pay for the killing machine.

Why in ****s name is spending acceptable to eradicate life but not to protect it ?

Why in ****s name would anyone prioritize death over life ?

Why is your dollar more worthwhile feeding death than it is to make sure families can be assured good health.

Quite frankly I dont give a rats ass about money. Our govt. is criminally negligent with US tax dollars and for once at least the priority is based on basic fundamental human decency.

I can live with that.

Take your paycheck and squirrel it away. I hope that brings you the satisfaction you seek.


Given you're so concerned about life, I assume you're against abortion. By the way...love your pic! You are an attractive lady!
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Post by Accountable »

masscraft;1218583 wrote: Given you're so concerned about life, I assume you're against abortion. By the way...love your pic! You're a pretty lady!
Welcome! Please stay on subject. There's plenty of abortion threads to choose from. :)
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Post by masscraft »

Accountable;1218586 wrote: Welcome! Please stay on subject. There's plenty of abortion threads to choose from. :)


Sorry about that. I just get a kick out of those that scream about the needless taking of life one way but then support it another way. Love your forum.
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Post by Accountable »

Thanks. The members make it. What do you think of the nationalized healthcare bill?
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Post by Nomad »

masscraft;1218587 wrote: Sorry about that. I just get a kick out of those that scream about the needless taking of life one way but then support it another way. Love your forum.


You know something about my views on abortion ? Enlighten me.
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Post by masscraft »

Nomad;1218604 wrote: You know something about my views on abortion ? Enlighten me.


No. Just asking. I agree with you about the phenomenal waste in government. The wars have exacted a huge toll. By the way...love the Staind video! Thanks!
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Post by masscraft »

Accountable;1218603 wrote: Thanks. The members make it. What do you think of the nationalized healthcare bill?


As with everything else, Obama and Co. are trying to ram it through quickly. He and his people know they have a honeymoon period and it's coming to an end. The horror stories from Canada and England are enough to make most people hesitate because many people's access to health care will be noticeably degraded. I love the part where Obama insists he's going to do this without adding to the debt but he's not going to tax anyone making under $250,000. Now is when campaign promises start to hurt because he can't do both at the same time. There simply are not enough "rich" people to make it work.
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Post by Nomad »

Accountable;1218582 wrote: The war. We're wasting billions there, therefore we're justified wasting hundreds of billions everywhere else. Good argument.



The US Constution (yeh, that quaint relic of times past) places the military firmly under the jurisdiction of the federal government. It also places anything not specifically mentioned firmly under the jurisdiction of the states.



It's not the federal government's job to regulate healthcare, B. If you think it should, get an amendment passed.



My arguments against this travesty have never been about money, but liberty. I'm pretty sure that's clear.



___________



You asked for information. I gave you what I can find. It directly addresses your mistaken belief that "if you recieved benefits through your employer nothing would change." Any response along those lines?


Ted nugent's ideas about liberty while they sound good to rednecks they arent plausible. We cant shoot everyone that trespasses us. Were well beyond the wild wild west. Same goes for constitutionalism. We dont live in the same world we did 200 years ago. If you cant roll with changes then youre not as grounded as you think you are.

My argument of the cost of the war is dead on because my central point is about priorities. We keep our liberty intact by desecrating the liberties of others ? Is that how it works, the ends justify the means ?

Liberty means the state of being free. Actions going beyond normal limits.

Up until Obama you feel like youve had unimpeded liberty ? That horse ****. Our govt. has and always will do as it sees fit. You get to vote, thats about it. When was the last time the Federal govt. held a referendum on issues ? Never. Your rights arent being stripped your just stuck in the mud. You want what you want but the problem is not everyone wants what you want.

You voted, I voted, so here we are.

Bush was a rabid animal when it came to American liberties. Why werent you screaming about that ?

Look I like you acc but weve always disagreed on some major points.

I dont expect thats ever going to change.

Id prefer tax dollars go towards beneficial endeavors as opposed to better and more efficient ways to explode a mans skull.
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Post by Nomad »

masscraft;1218583 wrote: By the way...love your pic! You are an attractive lady!


Thanks. I an kinda sexy. :-4
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Post by masscraft »

Nomad;1218614 wrote: Thanks. I an kinda sexy. :-4


For sure. ;)
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Post by Nomad »

masscraft;1218619 wrote: For sure. ;)


Im HOT !

:sneaky:
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Post by masscraft »

Nomad;1218611 wrote: Ted nugent's ideas about liberty while they sound good to rednecks they arent plausible. We cant shoot everyone that trespasses us. Were well beyond the wild wild west. Same goes for constitutionalism. We dont live in the same world we did 200 years ago. If you cant roll with changes then youre not as grounded as you think you are.

My argument of the cost of the war is dead on because my central point is about priorities. We keep our liberty intact by desecrating the liberties of others ? Is that how it works, the ends justify the means ?

Liberty means the state of being free. Actions going beyond normal limits.

Up until Obama you feel like youve had unimpeded liberty ? That horse ****. Our govt. has and always will do as it sees fit. You get to vote, thats about it. When was the last time the Federal govt. held a referendum on issues ? Never. Your rights arent being stripped your just stuck in the mud. You want what you want but the problem is not everyone wants what you want.

You voted, I voted, so here we are.

Bush was a rabid animal when it came to American liberties. Why werent you screaming about that ?

Look I like you acc but weve always disagreed on some major points.

I dont expect thats ever going to change.

Id prefer tax dollars go towards beneficial endeavors as opposed to better and more efficient ways to explode a mans skull.


As you say, we are getting exactly what we voted for. Anyone that voted for Obama or any other democrat had to expect they would get in and spend, spend, spend. This is what democrats do. They love centralized government control and programs. I agree with you regarding beneficial endeavors but, unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there that would love to explode our peoples' skulls and this has been true forever. Back to health care, love the idea but the application is scarier than what we have now and will cost trillions more. There is a better solution but we're not seeing it discussed at all.
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Post by Nomad »

masscraft;1218627 wrote: As you say, we are getting exactly what we voted for. Anyone that voted for Obama or any other democrat had to expect they would get in and spend, spend, spend. This is what democrats do. They love centralized government control and programs. I agree with you regarding beneficial endeavors but, unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there that would love to explode our peoples' skulls and this has been true forever. Back to health care, love the idea but the application is scarier than what we have now and will cost trillions more. There is a better solution but we're not seeing it discussed at all.




Your point is a little misguided in that George Bush himself was a Republican and he spent spent spent.

Where does that leave us ?
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Post by masscraft »

Nomad;1218637 wrote: Your point is a little misguided in that George Bush himself was a Republican and he spent spent spent.

Where does that leave us ?


He did. It's just one of the many mistakes he made. But the argument that Obama's spending is justified because Bush and Co. also spent doesn't fly. First, Bush was wrong to do so. Second, Obama's spending, just since January, is more than quadruple Bush's spending during his time in office. We are now at the point that "billions" sounds like pocket change. Trillions is the new standard. The fact that Barack has said he will implement nationalized health care without adding to the national debt shows he's aware that people have had it with spending. He'll never pull it off. How do you suggest we pay for the many trillions being discussed?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

masscraft;1218587 wrote: Sorry about that. I just get a kick out of those that scream about the needless taking of life one way but then support it another way. Love your forum.
Welcome. Where are you posting from?
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Post by masscraft »

oscar;1218660 wrote: Welcome. Where are you posting from?


Hi. I'm in the Chicago area.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Accountable;1218569 wrote:

If employers can save money by paying the gov't to insure their employees, they will do it. Maybe as you say, "if you recieved benefits through your employer nothing would change," but that's a HUGE if.
Out of interest Acc..... May i ask you what you think of the British health care system and could you see your country adopting similar? This plan means that if you have never worked in your life, the tax payer will pay for you to recieve any free health care of your desire.
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Post by kazalala »

oscar;1218662 wrote: Out of interest Acc..... May i ask you what you think of the British health care system and could you see your country adopting similar? This plan means that if you have never worked in your life, the tax payer will pay for you to recieve any free health care of your desire.
:-3oh come on ,,, calm down:rolleyes::wah:




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Post by Oscar Namechange »

masscraft;1218647 wrote: . How do you suggest we pay for the many trillions being discussed? Don't ask Britain for a loan..... we're bankrupt supporting Bush's foriegn policey :sneaky::sneaky:
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

kazalala;1218664 wrote: :-3oh come on ,,, calm down:rolleyes::wah: Come on Kaz..... I have to have at least one whinge a day :wah:
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Post by kazalala »

oscar;1218666 wrote: Come on Kaz..... I have to have at least one whinge a day :wah:


Whinge away ,,, just dont try to make our NHS look like a free candy shop;)




FOC THREAD PART1

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Post by Oscar Namechange »

kazalala;1218667 wrote: Whinge away ,,, just dont try to make our NHS look like a free candy shop;)
It's not ????:lips:
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Post by kazalala »

Sorry Accountable:o *backing out of the thread*:o




FOC THREAD PART1

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Post by Oscar Namechange »

kazalala;1218671 wrote: Sorry Accountable:o *backing out of the thread*:o
Yes, apple logies Acc..... I'm out as well.
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Post by gmc »

You should really stop looking at what other countries do, just for once come up with your own ideas.

It's really quite simple.

Do you believe, that morally it only right that in the 21st century a prosperous country should be providing universal healthcare for all it's citizens regardless of their ability to pay?

If no, then there is nothing to debate.

So how do you provide for the indigent bearing in mind that poverty is not usually a life choice people make but sometimes is forced upon them. What does christian country do to take care of the poor.

If yes then to what level and how do you fund it?

We sorted out what we think two generations ago at the time you sidestepped the same debate confusing universal healthcare with communism and stopping cold any rational debate on the subject. We just don't look at these kind of issues the same way you do for very good reasons but none of which really make any sense to an american since you don't share the same cultural and social history.

Forget other countries it's a debate you need to have in an American context, all else is irrelevant. Anyone pointing at other countries is really saying they have no proper counter arguments and usually don't know what they are talking about anyway.



posted by oscar

Don't ask Britain for a loan..... we're bankrupt supporting Bush's foriegn policey


That's right remind everybody what a bunch of tossers we have elected to government and that thanks to new labour we are bankrupt, a laughing stock and probably won't be able to sustain the welfare state for much longer-introduced by labour destroyed by new labour. What a legacy.
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Post by Accountable »

Nomad;1218611 wrote: Ted nugent's ideas about liberty while they sound good to rednecks they arent plausible. We cant shoot everyone that trespasses us. Never heard Nugent say anything remotely like that. Clean yer ears, Yankee. :p

Nomad wrote: Were well beyond the wild wild west. Same goes for constitutionalism. We dont live in the same world we did 200 years ago. If you cant roll with changes then youre not as grounded as you think you are.So we should abolish the Constitution? (not a rhetorical question)

What would you reckon is the reason nobody has suggested a constitutional amendment giving Congress responsibility for the nation's healthcare?

Nomad wrote: My argument of the cost of the war is dead on because my central point is about priorities. We keep our liberty intact by desecrating the liberties of others ? Is that how it works, the ends justify the means ?

Liberty means the state of being free. Actions going beyond normal limits.

Up until Obama you feel like youve had unimpeded liberty ? That horse ****. Our govt. has and always will do as it sees fit. You get to vote, thats about it. When was the last time the Federal govt. held a referendum on issues ? Never. Your rights arent being stripped your just stuck in the mud. You want what you want but the problem is not everyone wants what you want.

You voted, I voted, so here we are.

Bush was a rabid animal when it came to American liberties. Why werent you screaming about that ?Our rights are absolutely being stripped, and it has been happening to one degree or another by big gov't since the depression. I'm waking up late. You'll wake up later. Maybe we'll both be young enough to do something when enough people wake up.

Nomad wrote: Look I like you acc but weve always disagreed on some major points.

I dont expect thats ever going to change.Thanks, B. The feeling's mutual. Always has been. :-6

Nomad wrote: Id prefer tax dollars go towards beneficial endeavors as opposed to better and more efficient ways to explode a mans skull.Me too.
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Post by Accountable »

oscar;1218662 wrote: Out of interest Acc..... May i ask you what you think of the British health care system and could you see your country adopting similar? This plan means that if you have never worked in your life, the tax payer will pay for you to recieve any free health care of your desire.
Your system is yours. I didn't enjoy my one experience with it. If one or more of our states voted to adopt it word-for-word I wouldn't have a problem with at all (unless it was Texas). It would be constitutional. Federal adoption of a one-size-fits all national system is not.
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Post by Accountable »

gmc;1218735 wrote: You should really stop looking at what other countries do, just for once come up with your own ideas.:yh_clap



gmc wrote: It's really quite simple.



Do you believe, that morally it only right that in the 21st century a prosperous country should be providing universal healthcare for all it's citizens regardless of their ability to pay?



If no, then there is nothing to debate. Then there is nothing to debate.



gmc wrote: So how do you provide for the indigent bearing in mind that poverty is not usually a life choice people make but sometimes is forced upon them. What does christian country do to take care of the poor.We do that in the US, though it could use an upgrade. Nobody's discussing that, though, only that everybody be covered whether they can afford it or not ... whether they want it or not ... whether it goes against our Constitution or not.



How is a right a right when it intrudes on another person?

My right to speak does not require anyone else to agree ... or even listen.

My right to religion does not require anyone else to pray with me.

My right to bear arms does not require anyone to sell me a gun if they so choose.

My right against incriminating myself, to refuse shelter to a soldier, and any other rights acknowledged in our Bill of Rights in no way impinge on others. They do not require anyone else's payment. They do not require anyone else's action. If anything, it requires the inaction of others.

Rights cost nothing.



Healthcare is not a right.

National healthcare is not constitutional.
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Post by AussiePam »

I'm glad you put this thread up here, Accountable. It's better disconnected from other threads. I don't think any country is static, all are works in progress. The massive debate in America now is part of this process, and part of your particular kind of democracy. Your country has suffered since September 11 some almost unbelievable shocks and now you have not only the repercussions of the Wall Street crash, but an actual black President in the White House. We're not in FG as representatives of our respective countries, but as individuals - on equal terms. I'm not going to make any more comments about non-Australian health systems. As gmc says, each country has its own historic and other reasons for doing what it does. Best wishes for a good outcome for America.
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Post by flopstock »

The most bizarre thing I've heard lately is that we are now outsourcing health-care support. My sister-in-law had to spend a month training her replacement through web-ex sessions and conference calls. Yep, moving 50% of operations off shore this year.



Quite the plan, IMO. Good luck getting a claim problem fixed when asking for assistance from Roger (pronounced Rockjeer):rolleyes:



I don't think we should be giving away healthcare. I don't think my employer should be forced to choose between a hire and picking up coverage for Americans who throw their money away on cigarettes, beer and soda pop.



Then again, I can't stand being in line behind folks whose carts are loaded to the gills and watching them whip out the 'let's let Diane pay for this - card' while I'm grabbing cheese and bread and butter to get us through Friday..:mad:



I think that politicians should have their health care coverage pulled and be forced to get by, like the rest of us. Maybe if they had to pay their own freight they wouldn't keep finding it easier and easier to ask others to carry this unjustified load of crap.



Deductibles went to 1500 per person here, 4500 cap for families. Preventative stuff exempt. Not surprisingly, office visits are down. After three days off, you need a doctors clearance to return to work... ta da.. folks who were always sick around the holidays are no longer off as long.. they don't want to pay for that office visit themselves, don't ya know..:rolleyes:
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Post by along-for-the-ride »

The United States has "public education" and "public housing", and I guess the goal now is to have "public health-care". But, sometimes, we can't help but cringe at some of the aspects of anything "public." Because of abuse at times, and because of neglect at times, these programs have been less than successful. JMO
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along-for-the-ride;1218797 wrote: The United States has "public education" and "public housing", and I guess the goal now is to have "public health-care". But, sometimes, we can't help but cringe at some of the aspects of anything "public." Because of abuse at times, and because of neglect at times, these programs have been less than successful. JMO




And do you know I have to buy parts and attempt my own repairs because I can't afford a plumber and yet I pay for public housing repairs every day?
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Post by Accountable »

along-for-the-ride;1218797 wrote: The United States has "public education" and "public housing", and I guess the goal now is to have "public health-care". But, sometimes, we can't help but cringe at some of the aspects of anything "public." Because of abuse at times, and because of neglect at times, these programs have been less than successful. JMO
This is different.



Public education is run each state (or has been until fairly recently) and can easily be justified as investment in our future.

Public housing isn't available to everyone, and we aren't required to get a house even if we don't want one. Employers aren't charged rent for the employees they don't house themselves.
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Post by ZAP »

flopstock;1218799 wrote: And do you know I have to buy parts and attempt my own repairs because I can't afford a plumber and yet I pay for public housing repairs every day?


Well said!!
Patsy Warnick
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

When we stand in line behind those loaded to the gill carts - knowing we're all paying for those loaded carts.

know this

that's the Older women who needed kids at 69 yrs. old..

Patsy
gmc
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Post by gmc »

Accountable;1218766 wrote: :yh_clap



Then there is nothing to debate.



We do that in the US, though it could use an upgrade. Nobody's discussing that, though, only that everybody be covered whether they can afford it or not ... whether they want it or not ... whether it goes against our Constitution or not.



How is a right a right when it intrudes on another person?

My right to speak does not require anyone else to agree ... or even listen.

My right to religion does not require anyone else to pray with me.

My right to bear arms does not require anyone to sell me a gun if they so choose.

My right against incriminating myself, to refuse shelter to a soldier, and any other rights acknowledged in our Bill of Rights in no way impinge on others. They do not require anyone else's payment. They do not require anyone else's action. If anything, it requires the inaction of others.

Rights cost nothing.



Healthcare is not a right.

National healthcare is not constitutional.


To us they are interrelated. at the heart of our welfare state is a fundamentally different attitude to government and what it should do. The Beverley report is what set it all in motion.

When, in 1941, the government commissioned a report into the ways that Britain should be rebuilt after World War Two, Beveridge was an obvious choice to take charge. He published his report in 1942 and recommended that the government should find ways of fighting the five 'Giant Evils' of 'Want, Disease, Ignorance, Squalor and Idleness'.


Yes it was a socialistic (although beveridge was actually a liberal) programme introduced with mass support that is still generally has-bottom up demand for social change. But we have a completely alien perspective to the American one on such matters. One you might grasp intellectually but not really understand. It's the same in reverse, we can understand intellectually your point of view but not really share it.

I think that's why so many british posters chip in a a thread like this where really have no real understanding of the issue from an american perspective. It's fascinating and thought provoking watching the different way of seeing things.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Rather than fighting five 'Giant Evils', which is proving to make citizens dependent and satisfied with mediocrity, I'd prefer to strive for five ideals. Personal excellence, innovation, neighborliness, enlightenment, responsibility, and personal leadership is a good list to start with.
gmc
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Post by gmc »

Accountable;1219165 wrote: Rather than fighting five 'Giant Evils', which is proving to make citizens dependent and satisfied with mediocrity, I'd prefer to strive for five ideals. Personal excellence, innovation, neighborliness, enlightenment, responsibility, and personal leadership is a good list to start with.


Like I said different countries different perspectives. That's why comparisons don't really help.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

gmc;1219032 wrote:



Yes it was a socialistic (although beveridge was actually a liberal) programme introduced with mass support that is still generally has-bottom up demand for social change. But we have a completely alien perspective to the American one on such matters. One you might grasp intellectually but not really understand. It's the same in reverse, we can understand intellectually your point of view but not really share it.

I think that's why so many british posters chip in a a thread like this where really have no real understanding of the issue from an american perspective. It's fascinating and thought provoking watching the different way of seeing things. Look where it got us !!! Maybe the US can look to how our government has systematically destroyed our health system and take a good look at Ireland's also and learn from this countries mistakes. It's time to take the NHS out of the hands of Government and Whitehall and hand it back to the NHS.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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flopstock
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Post by flopstock »

Accountable;1219165 wrote: Rather than fighting five 'Giant Evils', which is proving to make citizens dependent and satisfied with mediocrity, I'd prefer to strive for five ideals. Personal excellence, innovation, neighborliness, enlightenment, responsibility, and personal leadership is a good list to start with.
This falls right in line the the good guy always winning in the end. It's a great concept, but in reality, rarely happens.

Taking CPR certification tonight, EMT next week and you know what my good deed fellow man notion gets my company? another opportunity to be sued by the very folks we look to be there to lend a hand to. So I volunteer on a personal basis, because I'm broke and good luck making a penny off my efforts..lol

First kill the lawyers - is not a bad slogan. Then we can look at fixing things, IMO.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

This is what we're in for.

LINK

"He was admitted to a London hospital in May but died after doctors refused to give him a liver transplant amid fears he would not stay sober for six months after the operation. "

... "The NHS Blood and Transplant service said Mr Reinbach's case highlighted the dilemma faced by doctors because of a shortage of donated organs.

'They have to make tough decisions about who is going to get the benefit and who is going to take best care of this precious gift,' the NHS said.

~~~~

I wonder if anyone else matched the liver. Livers regenerate, so more than one person can benefit from a donor.
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Post by Nomad »

Accountable;1218755 wrote: Never heard Nugent say anything remotely like that. Clean yer ears, Yankee. :p








Ted Nugent
I AM AWESOME MAN
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Nomad;1220225 wrote: Ted Nugent
Thanks! That's good stuff. I'm putting that in my favorites. :-6





I'm really more interested in your answering my other questions, though, if you don't mind.

Accountable;1218755 wrote: So we should abolish the Constitution? (not a rhetorical question)



What would you reckon is the reason nobody has suggested a constitutional amendment giving Congress responsibility for the nation's healthcare?



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flopstock
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Post by flopstock »

Nomad;1220225 wrote: Ted Nugent


That was awesome! Him, I could vote for.. minus the hair drool thing that's happening there, of course..:D
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

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gmc
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Post by gmc »

Accountable;1220161 wrote: This is what we're in for.

LINK

"He was admitted to a London hospital in May but died after doctors refused to give him a liver transplant amid fears he would not stay sober for six months after the operation. "

... "The NHS Blood and Transplant service said Mr Reinbach's case highlighted the dilemma faced by doctors because of a shortage of donated organs.

'They have to make tough decisions about who is going to get the benefit and who is going to take best care of this precious gift,' the NHS said.

~~~~

I wonder if anyone else matched the liver. Livers regenerate, so more than one person can benefit from a donor.


In america he would probably wouldn't have got the transplant either because

A) He had no insurance.

B) His HMO? (is that what you call them) refused treatment because it was an experimental procedure.

C) they spent so long trying to get out of it he died while waiting.

Course his family could have bankrupted themselves in order to pay for his treatment which seems to be a fairly common occurrence in the US-what is it 60% of all bankruptcies in the states are due to medical bills. This guys family had the option to go privately or even abroad but chose not to.

Medical Bills Cause Most Bankruptcies - Well Blog - NYTimes.com

Among families who were bankrupted by illness, those with private insurance reported average medical bills of $17,749 compared to those who were uninsured, who faced an average of $26,971 in medical costs. Those who had health insurance but lost it in the course of their illness reported average medical bills of $22,568.

How do they lose their cover-you're ill can't work presumably, not earning and can't pay. Do they not have a provision so if you are claiming and off work as a consequence of illness premiums are waived.
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Post by Accountable »

gmc;1220793 wrote: In america he would probably wouldn't have got the transplant either because



A) He had no insurance.

B) His HMO? (is that what you call them) refused treatment because it was an experimental procedure.

C) they spent so long trying to get out of it he died while waiting.Not having insurance would likely have increased his chances of getting a transplant. We give life-saving medical care to the poor and indigent.



gmc wrote: Course his family could have bankrupted themselves in order to pay for his treatment which seems to be a fairly common occurrence in the US-what is it 60% of all bankruptcies in the states are due to medical bills. This guys family had the option to go privately or even abroad but chose not to.



Medical Bills Cause Most Bankruptcies - Well Blog - NYTimes.com



.



How do they lose their cover-you're ill can't work presumably, not earning and can't pay. Do they not have a provision so if you are claiming and off work as a consequence of illness premiums are waived.That's a convenient statistic taken in a vacuum. I wonder what the statistics show for families who follow a budget and maintain an emergency fund versus people who don't live within their means.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Man, I'm proud to be a transplanted Texan!



"It really is a state issue, and if there was ever an argument for the 10th Amendment and for letting the states find a solution to their problems, this may be at the top of the class," Perry said. "A government-run healthcare system is financially unstable. It’s not the solution."



Perry raises possibility of states' rights showdown with White House over healthcare | Top Stories | Star-Telegram.com
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