Britain walks out of UN summit after Iran calls Israel Racist

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:31 am

Britain and EU diplomats walk out as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calls Israel 'racist' - Telegraph

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:08 am

Good, its about time.

I really, really dislike the attitudes of this smirking little Islamic supremicist, he may be fawned on in his own country (people don't have much choice), but at least in other parts of the world, people are free to express themselves as they see fit. His sub-facist views about Jews and Israel are vile, and should be seen for what they are. Certainly Israel has done things it needs to be held accountable for in relation to its unacceptable treatment of Palestinians, but what this man wants is not peace, he wants war, be under no illusion.

Its a shame that men such as this are in charge of the Islamic Republic, but its indicative of the nature of revolutions and the kind of people they throw up. Iran is an amazing country with a proud history, but its governance leaves a lot to be desired.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:34 am

Galbally;1178121 wrote: Good, its about time.

I really, really dislike the attitudes of this smirking little Islamic supremicist, he may be fawned on in his own country (people don't have much choice), but at least in other parts of the world, people are free to express themselves as they see fit. His sub-facist views about Jews and Israel are vile, and should be seen for what they are. Certainly Israel has done things it needs to be held accountable for in relation to its unacceptable treatment of Palestinians, but what this man wants is not peace, he wants war, be under no illusion.

Its a shame that men such as this are in charge of the Islamic Republic, but its indicative of the nature of revolutions and the kind of people they throw up. Iran is an amazing country with a proud history, but its governance leaves a lot to be desired. Oh come on!!!!! Israel is getting a taste of their own medicine. For decades they have bullied and threatened and of late especially Iran. Sorry but who is it actually threatening to wipe Iran off the face of the earth right now?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:21 pm

oscar;1178350 wrote: Oh come on!!!!! Israel is getting a taste of their own medicine. For decades they have bullied and threatened and of late especially Iran. Sorry but who is it actually threatening to wipe Iran off the face of the earth right now?

Oscar, you think that Israel (which remains a democracy in which all citizens; regardless of race, creed, or gender; are given protection and rights under the rule of law) "deserves" to be threatened with destruction by a totalitarian despot who runs a government that facilitates propaganda declaring jews to be be pigs and sub-human; and is developing nuclear weapons?

An interesting viewpoint, but I am afraid I do not share it.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:02 am

Galbally;1178655 wrote: Oscar, you think that Israel (which remains a democracy in which all citizens; regardless of race, creed, or gender; are given protection and rights under the rule of law) "deserves" to be threatened with destruction by a totalitarian despot who runs a government that facilitates propaganda declaring jews to be be pigs and sub-human; and is developing nuclear weapons?

An interesting viewpoint, but I am afraid I do not share it. What bollocks.

Israel are and always have been the aggressor. They have repeatedly threatened Iran as they have with the Palistinians. I actually agree with the guy. Britian should not have walked out of the UN summit, they should have cheered him.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:56 pm

oscar;1178800 wrote: What bollocks.

Yup.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:12 pm

Galbally;1178655 wrote: Oscar, you think that Israel (which remains a democracy in which all citizens; regardless of race, creed, or gender; are given protection and rights under the rule of law) "deserves" to be threatened with destruction by a totalitarian despot who runs a government that facilitates propaganda declaring jews to be be pigs and sub-human; and is developing nuclear weapons?

An interesting viewpoint, but I am afraid I do not share it.

I would suggest that you ask Israel's Palestinian citizens if your italicised text is correct - it might well say that in their constitution but it is far from true in reality.

Post by **Ally** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:29 am

Galbally;1178655 wrote: Oscar, you think that Israel (which remains a democracy in which all citizens; regardless of race, creed, or gender; are given protection and rights under the rule of law) "deserves" to be threatened with destruction by a totalitarian despot who runs a government that facilitates propaganda declaring jews to be be pigs and sub-human; and is developing nuclear weapons?

An interesting viewpoint, but I am afraid I do not share it.

I dont get into these threads normally and may never get into this one again,buti agree with galbally.Iran is the most unstable country at the moment their president is a tyrant, this man is a loose cannon.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:50 am

Ally;1179106 wrote: Iran is the most unstable country at the moment their president is a tyrant, this man is a loose cannon.

I refer you to the comment mnade by Mr. Mawr.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:01 am

Ally;1179106 wrote: I dont get into these threads normally and may never get into this one again,buti agree with galbally.Iran is the most unstable country at the moment their president is a tyrant, this man is a loose cannon.
Iran is a problem to the US right now true yet is an ally of Britain and Europe. As soon as Obama was elected, Israel were warning him with the same bully boy tactics they have used for decades. Obama has a tricky situation here. He wants to offer the hand of friendship to Iran but can not all the time the US back and fund the Israeli military. The way i see it is that Israel has always been the aggressor constantly threatening to wipe Iran off the face of the earth until Iran has also developed nucleur deterents. Now Israel are worried that Iran has the power to launch a missile and do to them what they have been threatening themselves.

I do not see Iran as a threat and i totally agree with the guy that Israel are racist against Arabs.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:45 pm

Ally;1179106 wrote: I dont get into these threads normally and may never get into this one again,buti agree with galbally.Iran is the most unstable country at the moment their president is a tyrant, this man is a loose cannon.

Compare Iran and their history over the past thirty years with North Korea, Uganda, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Sudan, Ethiopia, Myanmar, etc, etc and you will find that Iran is the perfect example of sanity and stability - the big difference is the way the country has been reported in the media.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:54 pm

oscar;1178800 wrote: What bollocks.

Israel are and always have been the aggressor. They have repeatedly threatened Iran as they have with the Palistinians. I actually agree with the guy. Britian should not have walked out of the UN summit, they should have cheered him.

Yes, indeed well I hope that makes you feel good about yourself in that "right on" feeling people get when talking about "nasty" Israel; however, I can assure you that it's not I who is talking "bollocks", as you so eloquently put it.

Which side started the 1948 conflict, or the 1967 conflict, or the 1973 conflict? Just because they lost so badly, its easy for the Arabs of Jordan and Syria and Egypt to cry and pretend to be the victims, they were not, there was always a possibilty that the Jews could be accommodated with a territory in the levant, but war was chosen as a means of policy following the declaration of the State of Israel, and so be it.

Also the concept that any honourable British diplomat would get up and applaud a man who has called for another sovereign state to be anilhilated, who refuses to accept that homosexuality is a Iranian phenomenon, that allows a court system that executes 17 year old girls (for the honour of being raped) to exist, that heads a state that once gave young children plastic keys "as a means to enter paradise" before sending them into minefields in order to clear them by stepping on the mines is truly chilling.

I suggest that you learn a little bit more about the reality of the history and politics of the region, particularly the last 50 years or so of it, before launching another gauche diatribe.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:56 pm

Bryn Mawr;1179376 wrote: Compare Iran and their history over the past thirty years with North Korea, Uganda, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Sudan, Ethiopia, Myanmar, etc, etc and you will find that Iran is the perfect example of sanity and stability - the big difference is the way the country has been reported in the media.

Bryn, I suggest you read Robert Fisk's account of what life is like in the Islamic Republic since 1979, the type of people that run it, and what goes on there. You may find that its not just a western Media bias about Iran that makes the Iranian government a very, very unpleasant bunch.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:27 am

Galbally;1179509 wrote: Bryn, I suggest you read Robert Fisk's account of what life is like in the Islamic Republic since 1979, the type of people that run it, and what goes on there. You may find that its not just a western Media bias about Iran that makes the Iranian government a very, very unpleasant bunch.

Might I recommend his "The Great War For Civilisation" about the history of the region. He describes in great detail the formation of the Islamic Republic and the fall of the Shah - he also describes in equal detail the horrific ten years of war that followed it. You might also find his many descriptions of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, there and elsewhere, instructive.

The answer is yes, I have read a lot about what is happening in Iran and elsewhere in the region. Might I ask you what you would expect life to be like in a country that was invaded by Western backed forces within a year of being born and which lost the majority of its young men to that war over the next ten years? This is exactly the period you are referring to - 1980 to 1989.

Can you imagine what that war did to the psyche of the people who were just coming out of one of the most brutal regimes imaginable - a regieme re-imposed on them by the West after they had successfully thrown him out once and that survived by a rule of terror far worse than the killings that happend during the change of power in 1979.

Then tell me what Iran have done to deserve the destruction threatened to them by both Israel and the USA - not the scare stories of immanent nuclear weapons or the rhetoric of defiance that is the only power that they have to wield but real actions that have harmed their neighbours.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:34 am

Perhaps you will address the point in post#8:

Galbally;1179508 wrote: before launching another gauche diatribe.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:51 am

If you look at what is happening in Pakistan I think you are worrying about the wrong area now.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:21 am

Galbally;1179508 wrote: Yes, indeed well I hope that makes you feel good about yourself in that "right on" feeling people get when talking about "nasty" Israel; however, I can assure you that it's not I who is talking "bollocks", as you so eloquently put it.

Which side started the 1948 conflict, or the 1967 conflict, or the 1973 conflict? Just because they lost so badly, its easy for the Arabs of Jordan and Syria and Egypt to cry and pretend to be the victims, they were not, there was always a possibilty that the Jews could be accommodated with a territory in the levant, but war was chosen as a means of policy following the declaration of the State of Israel, and so be it.

Also the concept that any honourable British diplomat would get up and applaud a man who has called for another sovereign state to be anilhilated, who refuses to accept that homosexuality is a Iranian phenomenon, that allows a court system that executes 17 year old girls (for the honour of being raped) to exist, that heads a state that once gave young children plastic keys "as a means to enter paradise" before sending them into minefields in order to clear them by stepping on the mines is truly chilling.

I suggest that you learn a little bit more about the reality of the history and politics of the region, particularly the last 50 years or so of it, before launching another gauche diatribe.

Why quote me and not the other members who dis-agree with you?

How dare you tell me to learn a little more about the reality? Who do you think you are?

I may not be the worlds greatest historian and i never profess to being so....... However, you know nothing of my education or what i have read...... but then, i forgot, I'm a woman arn't I? I'm far too busy making cakes and reading knitting patterns.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:33 am

oscar;1179588 wrote: Why quote me and not the other members who dis-agree with you?

How dare you tell me to learn a little more about the reality? Who do you think you are?

I may not be the worlds greatest historian and i never profess to being so....... However, you know nothing of my education or what i have read...... but then, i forgot, I'm a woman arn't I? I'm far too busy making cakes and reading knitting patterns.

There's no need for the high horse Oscar.

It is nothing to do with the fact you are a woman - he also told me to read up on the history of the area.

Best argument is to quote the history back at him and show that there is a reality that he's not seeing.

gaiusjulii · Post by **gaiusjulii** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:38 am

I think People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.

Iran and Israel will always be at each others throat. I dont think its gonna change our childrens lifetimes let alone ours.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:09 am

Bryn Mawr;1179595 wrote: There's no need for the high horse Oscar.

It is nothing to do with the fact you are a woman - he also told me to read up on the history of the area.

Best argument is to quote the history back at him and show that there is a reality that he's not seeing. True Bryn but i remember bashing my head against a brick wall with galbally over the attack on Gaza. If i remember correctly, galbally does not recognise Hamas or the plight of the Palistinians thinking the un-proportionate attack on Gaza as acceptable.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:18 am

oscar;1179612 wrote: True Bryn but i remember bashing my head against a brick wall with galbally over the attack on Gaza. If i remember correctly, galbally does not recognise Hamas or the plight of the Palistinians thinking the un-proportionate attack on Gaza as acceptable.

Then it's up to us to prove him wrong - facts, logic and direct comparisons, cause and effect, leave not a standing leg available to him :wah:

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:21 am

Bryn Mawr;1179615 wrote: Then it's up to us to prove him wrong - facts, logic and direct comparisons, cause and effect, leave not a standing leg available to him :wah:
Will do although very short of time right now with Mr O away. I need make sure i have my imformation correct also or the Irish one will go into one of his 'diatribes'. :wah:

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:10 am

Bryn Mawr;1179517 wrote: Might I recommend his "The Great War For Civilisation" about the history of the region. He describes in great detail the formation of the Islamic Republic and the fall of the Shah - he also describes in equal detail the horrific ten years of war that followed it. You might also find his many descriptions of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, there and elsewhere, instructive.

The answer is yes, I have read a lot about what is happening in Iran and elsewhere in the region. Might I ask you what you would expect life to be like in a country that was invaded by Western backed forces within a year of being born and which lost the majority of its young men to that war over the next ten years? This is exactly the period you are referring to - 1980 to 1989.

Can you imagine what that war did to the psyche of the people who were just coming out of one of the most brutal regimes imaginable - a regieme re-imposed on them by the West after they had successfully thrown him out once and that survived by a rule of terror far worse than the killings that happend during the change of power in 1979.

Then tell me what Iran have done to deserve the destruction threatened to them by both Israel and the USA - not the scare stories of immanent nuclear weapons or the rhetoric of defiance that is the only power that they have to wield but real actions that have harmed their neighbours.

I have read it, its an excellent book, sad and chilling.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:10 am

Bill Sikes;1179532 wrote: Perhaps you will address the point in post#8:

In which way would you like me to address it?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:15 am

oscar;1179588 wrote: Why quote me and not the other members who dis-agree with you?

How dare you tell me to learn a little more about the reality? Who do you think you are?

I may not be the worlds greatest historian and i never profess to being so....... However, you know nothing of my education or what i have read...... but then, i forgot, I'm a woman arn't I? I'm far too busy making cakes and reading knitting patterns.

I think I am myself, and I am perfectly entitled to speak my mind, as are you. You are also quite capable of throwing glib insults around so your protestations are ringing a little hollow, also I don't recall making any comment about the fact your a woman, thats your own issue.

You are perfectly entitled to hold your views, I happen to disagree with you on this one, but if you think that I will be cowed by being told I am talking "bollocks" or the passive-agressive stuff following my response, you are quite mistaken.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:24 am

oscar;1179612 wrote: True Bryn but i remember bashing my head against a brick wall with galbally over the attack on Gaza. If i remember correctly, galbally does not recognise Hamas or the plight of the Palistinians thinking the un-proportionate attack on Gaza as acceptable.

I don't actually think that Israel's policies toward the Palestinians are acceptable, also it occurs to me, that it makes no different whether I "recognize" Hamas or not, I'm just some eegit in Ireland. I also don't think that the Iranian Presidents views on Jews or Israel are acceptable.

I also don't think that a nation such as Britain should be "applauding" such men when they make speeches such as he made in Geneva, which was one of your ridiculous assertions.

I simply don't buy into the anti-Israeli hysteria we get over here all the time, I think its got more to do with our own left and right politics than it has anything to do with what happens in the Levant. It interesting that trying to perhaps question some of the way that the Israel-Palestine story is interpreted in Europe tends to illicit a very negative response, thats the way it goes I suppose.

That doesn't mean that I think Israeli policy is great, or that there are not very serious problems and injustices with what is happening and has been happening, of course I can see that. But that's just one side of the story, and this is not a simple story.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:56 pm

Scrat;1179858 wrote: Galbally I think you are dead wrong about the situation in Iran. With all due respect I think you have a way of letting your emotions carry you away when it comes to subjects such as this.

Who has been meddling in Irans affairs for the last century? Who installed the Shah? Who promised (and largely delivered) military and monetary aid to Iraqs for its aggression in the 80s? That war was not started by Iran, it was started by Iraq with the blessing of the west. It cost millions of Iranian lives, there were few families in Iran that didn't lose someone in that war.

Who has been meddling with Iran?

You better believe it, the west and mainly the US and we are still seeking to subvert that country, to destroy the most important things that country has, peace and stability. Do you really think that the US wouldn't destroy that country like they did Iraq if they could? I don't think that they would hesitate, there is only one reason the US has not, there are no resources for it.

Since when did Ahmad call for the destruction of Israel? He called for the destruction of the Israeli government. Correct yourself.

Make no mistake, one of my first steps in solving the Israel/Arab crisis involves a wall, a trench, a machine gun and every Israeli politician.

Let Iran alone, they will change with time. Russia will change with time as Belarussia will change with time. Get out of their lives, quit threatening them.

Very well said Scrat and i totally agree with you. Let's not forget years of genocide against the Palistinians from Israel also.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:21 am

Scrat;1179858 wrote: Galbally I think you are dead wrong about the situation in Iran. With all due respect I think you have a way of letting your emotions carry you away when it comes to subjects such as this.

Who has been meddling in Irans affairs for the last century? Who installed the Shah? Who promised (and largely delivered) military and monetary aid to Iraqs for its aggression in the 80s? That war was not started by Iran, it was started by Iraq with the blessing of the west. It cost millions of Iranian lives, there were few families in Iran that didn't lose someone in that war.

Who has been meddling with Iran?

You better believe it, the west and mainly the US and we are still seeking to subvert that country, to destroy the most important things that country has, peace and stability. Do you really think that the US wouldn't destroy that country like they did Iraq if they could? I don't think that they would hesitate, there is only one reason the US has not, there are no resources for it.

Since when did Ahmad call for the destruction of Israel? He called for the destruction of the Israeli government. Correct yourself.

Make no mistake, one of my first steps in solving the Israel/Arab crisis involves a wall, a trench, a machine gun and every Israeli politician.

Let Iran alone, they will change with time. Russia will change with time as Belarussia will change with time. Get out of their lives, quit threatening them.

Scrat I know about the history of Iran, about its time as a part of the British possessions in that area, and then its struggle for independence and the subversion of that independence movement by Mi5 in the 1950s (aided by the CIA). My own country was part of that same global empire run from London, and remains divided since our own struggle for independence, so I am well aware of the realities of power politics as well as the politics of professional victimhood. Decades after its time to grow up and manage your own affairs.

That history doesn't make the current views of the President of Iran correct. He wasn't born when the coup that put the Shah in power in 57 happened. He leads a soverieign country and he can choose whether to act whichever way he wishes. Its also important to point out that Israel has nothing to do with Iran, its not Iran's business what happens in Israel, if they want peace here is my suggestion, leave Israel alone, stop provoking the Jews and their Leaders, also stop antagonizing the Arabs and the Sunni Muslims of the region, and stop trying to build a nuclear weapon program. That might take some heat of Iran, and perhaps the leadership could then focus on dealing with their own problems instead of other people's.

If the US has been so "keen" to destroy Iran, why hasn't it already done so? The Islamic revolution was 1979, the Iran-Iraq war was 1980 to 1988, desert storm was 1990, its not like they couldn't have already done it if they really wanted, and trust me I am not backing up idiotic US foriegn policy in the Persian gulf either I am just debating the point your making.

In terms of some of the other points, I haven't even mentioned Russia or Belorussia, or threatened to machine gun any nation's collective leadership in a ditch. My fundamental point was that the speech the Iran President made at the UN Anti-racism meeting expressed vile views about Israel, (and implicitly about Jews and that old Nazi bugbear "zionism"), and that the British and other Western nations were perfectly right to walk out and not listen to the smirking little religious homophobic, mysoginistic facist.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:32 am

Galbally;1179882 wrote: Scrat I know about the history of Iran, about its time as a part of the British possessions in that area, and then its struggle for independence and the subversion of that independence movement by Mi5 in the 1950s (aided by the CIA). My own country was part of that same global empire run from London, and remains divided since our own struggle for independence, so I am well aware of the realities of power politics as well as the politics of professional victimhood. Decades after its time to grow up and manage your own affairs.

That history doesn't make the current views of the President of Iran correct. He wasn't born when the coup that put the Shah in power in 57 happened. He leads a soverieign country and he can choose whether to act whichever way he wishes. Its also important to point out that Israel has nothing to do with Iran, its not Iran's business what happens in Israel, if they want peace here is my suggestion, leave Israel alone, stop provoking the Jews and their Leaders, also stop antagonizing the Arabs and the Sunni Muslims of the region, and stop trying to build a nuclear weapon program. That might take some heat of Iran, and perhaps the leadership could then focus on dealing with their own problems instead of other people's.

If the US has been so "keen" to destroy Iran, why hasn't it already done so? The Islamic revolution was 1979, the Iran-Iraq war was 1980 to 1988, desert storm was 1990, its not like they couldn't have already done it if they really wanted, and trust me I am not backing up idiotic US foriegn policy in the Persian gulf either I am just debating the point your making.

In terms of some of the other points, I haven't even mentioned Russia or Belorussia, or threatened to machine gun any nation's collective leadership in a ditch. My fundamental point was that the speech the Iran President made at the UN Anti-racism meeting expressed vile views about Israel, (and implicitly about Jews and that old Nazi bugbear "zionism"), and that the British and other Western nations were perfectly right to walk out and not listen to the smirking little religious homophobic, mysoginistic facist.

Ahmadinejad might not have been born in 1957 but his life and the life of everyone else in Iran has been moulded by the events that occured then and have occurred since.

The US have done everything they can, short of invasion by their own forces, to destroy Iran since the fall of the US / British installed puppet leader. They have not sent in the US Army because at no point would that have been politically acceptable but they are currently doing a damn'd good job of demonising the country sufficiently (using the same sort of lies that were used to make the invasion of Iraq acceptable) in an attempt to change that.

Iran has been controlled, attacked or threatened with attack by the West or forces controled by the West continuously since 1957. In that time they have attacked no-one yet you portray them as the bogeyman.

You will need to make more telling points than those to show that Iran is the agressor rather than the victim - yes, Ahmadinejad points out that the Israeli government's policies are racist (as they are) and that the actions of the Israeli government are a primary block to peace in the Middle East (as they are and in a way that directly affects the future of Iran) but this does not make Iran a danger to the world that must be stopped by force as Israel is threatening to do.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:53 pm

You said that "Israel .. (which remains a democracy in which all citizens; regardless of race, creed, or gender; are given protection and rights under the rule of law)

Mr. Mawr said: I would suggest that you ask Israel's Palestinian citizens if your italicised text is correct - it might well say that in their constitution but it is far from true in reality.

Do you really maintain that everyone in Israel is protected equally "under the rule of law"?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:40 pm

Bill Sikes;1180272 wrote: You said that "Israel .. (which remains a democracy in which all citizens; regardless of race, creed, or gender; are given protection and rights under the rule of law)

Mr. Mawr said: I would suggest that you ask Israel's Palestinian citizens if your italicised text is correct - it might well say that in their constitution but it is far from true in reality.

Do you really maintain that everyone in Israel is protected equally "under the rule of law"?

If you read carefully what I wrote, I said everyone receives protection and rights under the law, I didn't say everyone was treated equally in practice. No more than in Ireland, North or South, or the UK for that matter.

For the record, I totally reject that Israel is a racist state, certainly there are plenty of Israeli Racists, just like there are plenty of Saudi, or Syrian or Iranian racists, or Palestinian racists for that matter, no one has a monopoly on hatred and bigotry unfortunately.

Jews and Arabs are all semetic people, so racism is not even applicable in this situation anyway, its religious bigotry and supremacy that's at issue. its not apartheid era South Africa, or Nazi Germany, or Imperial Britain, its Israel-Palestine now, today, and they are not analogous situations. Both sides have their narrative, their propaganda, and their version of events, its wise not to become too emotionally involved in either if your going to look critically at the reality.

Being Irish I am well aware of the conceit that weak people who have suffered or who are suffering victimization and brutality to be blind to their own moral failings and put everything down to the evil of their oppressors, we, the Irish, did it for years with the British, and much of it may have been justified; however, that didn't negate our moral culpability for our own actions in any way. Unfortunately when you get into the mindset that you have a free pass because you've been victimized yourself, that can lead to a self-defeating descent into brutality.

Which is why I am very wary about getting on moral high horses about situations that are not ones I am directly responsible for or involved in. Everyone seems to do that with Israel-Palestine though, its a cipher for a lot of other things like US foreign policy, left-right European politics, militarism versus constitutionality etc etc. Israel-Palestine has become other people's poster child for almost everything else, other than the actual issue which is Israel-Palestine and the people who live there.

I have experienced Irish people who have never been in Israel, or Palestine, have only the flimsiest notion of post-war ME history, become almost apoplectic with rage when you suggest that perhaps there are two sides to this story, I honestly don't know why, it doesn't happen with other conflicts, only this one. No one in Ireland gets too much on their high-horse about Khasmir, or Eritrea, or Kosovo, or Chechyna, yet with Israel-Palestine its open season, one way or the other.

Why is that?

The truth is that the Palestinians are weak and have been totally victimized by the Israelis (of course they have); however, (despite the myth of omnipotent Israeli power), the Israelis are actually terrified about their own security because they are in reality, a tiny, mostly unloved country, with a population most of whom are the children of survivors of a policy of total ethnic extermination (carried out largely successfully against them) by one of the true powers of this world, still surrounded by many enemies who are not actually weak only disunited.

So therefore, they will not give an inch without quid pro quos that the Palestinians cannot give because the Palestinians have needs that are mutually exclusive of those of the Israelis. Based on their shared experience, history and belief that they own the land both live on, it now makes total sense that they fear and despise, and hate each other, I think its misguided, but who am I to tell them?

I don't walk in their shoes or know what it feels like to be a Jew, a descendent of Jews, now living in a Jewish state (the only one on the Planet) that has survived only and because of its military ability to defend itself and its much criticized support from a rapidly weakening superpower. Or a Palestinian in Gaza living under the constant humiliation of Israeli military blockade, the abject treatment of Palestinians for decades, or the fear of Hamas secret police thugs do I?

Thats the tragedy of the situation, I don't see a resolution to be honest, other than perhaps one day, the sheer exhaustion of hate on both sides leading to a workable political settlement, or the actual military destruction of Israel by a combination of its rivals-enemies, a full-scale Israeli total war against the West Bank and Gaza and the Arab countries around it, and/or a general nuclear exchange between regional powers that will lead to a radically different situation on the ground in the near east (i.e. everyone being dead).

None of the last three are very desirable, so I genuinely hope that both sides (and the sides that have to make peace are just Israelis and Palestinians, not Iranians, not Libyans, not Americans, not Europeans, not Saudis, not Russians) see that ultimately they share a tiny strip of land, that they will either live on together, or be buried in. I wouldn't be optimistic that this will happen any time soon, not given the meddling by so many other powers, the true hatred both sides feel for each other, and the influence of world opinion on this intractable conflict.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:48 pm

I said everyone receives protection and rights under the law

Sorry Gall, you are wrong.

The treatment of the Palestinian citizens of Israel is so far from being equal within the law that it is a joke that even many Israelis object to.

There is one law for the Jewish Israelis and a totally different law for the Palestinian Israelis.

This is documented by the UN, Amnesty International and by many Israeli organisations who are looking for justice and a basis for peace.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:29 am

Bryn Mawr;1180390 wrote: Sorry Gall, you are wrong.

The treatment of the Palestinian citizens of Israel is so far from being equal within the law that it is a joke that even many Israelis object to.

There is one law for the Jewish Israelis and a totally different law for the Palestinian Israelis.

This is documented by the UN, Amnesty International and by many Israeli organisations who are looking for justice and a basis for peace.

Again, I didn't say everyone was treated equally under the law, simply that there are recognized, and given protection and rights.

That is not the same thing.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:36 am

Galbally;1180485 wrote: Again, I didn't say everyone was treated equally under the law, simply that there are recognized, and given protection and rights.

That is not the same thing.

I dispute that they are given protection and that their rights are upheld.

The people they need protection from are the very people who should be protecting them - their government.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:55 pm

Bryn Mawr;1180624 wrote: I dispute that they are given protection and that their rights are upheld.

The people they need protection from are the very people who should be protecting them - their government.

Okay, examples please.

We also have people who hate the government here by the way, it doesn't mean my country is a racist one, just that the government is crap.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:59 am

Galbally;1180385 wrote: If you read carefully what I wrote, I said everyone receives protection and rights under the law, I didn't say everyone was treated equally in practice.

You neen to choose your words more carefully, then, to avoid confusion.

Galbally;1180385 wrote: No more than in Ireland, North or South, or the UK for that matter.

You actually equate the treatment dished out to Arab citizens of Israel with members of the UK population?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:37 am

Scrat;1180919 wrote: I don't think there is a comparison that can be made. I have been to Israel many times, I have seen who is the dishwashers and janitors of that society, the untouchables. Even 27 years ago.

There is an ordnance in Jerusalem that does not allow Arabs or Palastinians to obtain building permits in Jerusalem. Why? It is because Israelis want to drive the Arabs and Palastinians out of the city. It is after all a Jewish city is it not? If that's not discrimination I don't know what is.

Ahmadinejahd is correct in his statement, the evidence is there. The evidence of the unfair and unconstructive stance towards Israel and Iran in the west is abundant. Israel can do no wrong, Iran can do no right. White is black. I totally agree with you Scrat and i notice that the news that Israel may face war crimes over the illegal use of WP on Gaza has been well buried by the media.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:59 am

Galbally;1180768 wrote: Okay, examples please.

We also have people who hate the government here by the way, it doesn't mean my country is a racist one, just that the government is crap.

Sorry for the delay - work intervened.

The most obvious example is in the housing laws - the demolition of homes that can have been in the same family since before the formation of the state of Israel on the grounds that the owner has no permit because it is almost impossible for an Arab to obtain one.

Couple with this the fact that no new Arab settlements have been sanctioned within Israel since its inception despite the increasing size of the Arab population and you can predict the conditions under which those Arabs are living - especially when you add in the denial of services to the large number of Arab settlements that the Israeli refuse to recognise, again despite having existed since before the formation of the state of Israel.

Another aspect involves the mass detention of Arabs without charge - cited by Amnesty International as a major human rights abuse along with the conditions under which those prisoners are held and ill treatment amounting to torture.

This is without going into "inequalities" that in themself are cited as being human rights abuses.

This is nothing to do with people hating their government, this is a case of outside observers citing that government for the abuse of a section of their own citizens.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:06 pm

Bryn Mawr;1181167 wrote: Sorry for the delay - work intervened.

The most obvious example is in the housing laws - the demolition of homes that can have been in the same family since before the formation of the state of Israel on the grounds that the owner has no permit because it is almost impossible for an Arab to obtain one.

Couple with this the fact that no new Arab settlements have been sanctioned within Israel since its inception despite the increasing size of the Arab population and you can predict the conditions under which those Arabs are living - especially when you add in the denial of services to the large number of Arab settlements that the Israeli refuse to recognise, again despite having existed since before the formation of the state of Israel.

Another aspect involves the mass detention of Arabs without charge - cited by Amnesty International as a major human rights abuse along with the conditions under which those prisoners are held and ill treatment amounting to torture.

This is without going into "inequalities" that in themself are cited as being human rights abuses.

This is nothing to do with people hating their government, this is a case of outside observers citing that government for the abuse of a section of their own citizens.

Are you talking about Israeli Arabs, or Palestinians living in the occupied territories, sorry its not clear.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:10 pm

Bill Sikes;1180902 wrote: You neen to choose your words more carefully, then, to avoid confusion.

You actually equate the treatment dished out to Arab citizens of Israel with members of the UK population?

You will find that, in general, I always choose my words carefully.

No, I don't equate Israel and the U.K. at all, they are different, and have different sets of problems.

However, people tend to have the same basic flaws, prejudices, and virtues across the world.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:12 pm

Galbally;1181233 wrote: Are you talking about Israeli Arabs, or Palestinians living in the occupied territories, sorry its not clear.

Arab citizens of Israel / Israeli Arabs - whatever you want to call them.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:23 pm

Galbally;1181235 wrote: I don't equate Israel and the U.K. at all, they are different, and have different sets of problems.

That's not what I asked. I asked

Sikes wrote:

You actually equate the treatment dished out to Arab citizens of Israel with members of the UK population?

And you actually said previously:

Galbally wrote: If you read carefully what I wrote, I said everyone receives protection and rights under the law, I didn't say everyone was treated equally in practice. No more than in Ireland, North or South, or the UK for that matter.

So, to clarify, do you really suggest the the treatment dished out to Arab citizens of Israel is the same as that given to members of the UK population?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:52 pm

Scrat;1180919 wrote: I don't think there is a comparison that can be made. I have been to Israel many times, I have seen who is the dishwashers and janitors of that society, the untouchables. Even 27 years ago.

There is an ordnance in Jerusalem that does not allow Arabs or Palastinians to obtain building permits in Jerusalem. Why? It is because Israelis want to drive the Arabs and Palastinians out of the city. It is after all a Jewish city is it not? If that's not discrimination I don't know what is.

Ahmadinejahd is correct in his statement, the evidence is there. The evidence of the unfair and unconstructive stance towards Israel and Iran in the west is abundant. Israel can do no wrong, Iran can do no right. White is black.

Sorry, how many Christian "settlements" are there in Tehran? Or Buddist ones? Or Atheist societies, or Homosexual Bars, what is the status of Women in Tehran? Do they have equal status with their male counterparts, what's their legal "status" in relation to property. Iranians would say that they have their own ways, and their own way of organizing things and to suggest they should rethink that, is based on White European Imperialist Christian attitudes, good for them, thats their business, what the Israelis do in Israel is also "their business" based on the same rational reversed. Black is white eh?

So,how many Iranian Jews are in the Government of the "Islamic Republic" of Iran anyway then (hint, the clue is in the word "Islamic Republic"). Of course the largest population of Jews in the ME outside of Israel are in Iran, which used to be a pluralist, tolerant society back in the day, Ironic eh? Then again, it wouldn't be hard to have the largest population of Jews in the ME, as there are virtually no Jews in any other ME Muslim Country, funny that, I wonder why?

This is a nonsense, sorry Scrat I am Western, and I don't do the moral universalist thing. Israel was founded as a Jewish homeland, so what? Do you have a problem with the Jews having a homeland? Ireland is the homeland of Irish people, who happen to be mostly Catholics, so what?

Iranians are welcome to Iran, its their country, but to me its a despotic dictatorship, its a theocracy run by a bunch of hate-filled old clerics, with a dead hand on every aspect of the ordinary lives of Iranians, (who are a well-educated nation of people with a proud history and culture, governed by a bad government), it's roving buffoon of a President denies the existence of homosexuality (for starters), even in front of incredulous educated global audiences.

Which is not surprising seeing as he runs a country that has an entire code of law and system of governance based on a narrow vision of a medival religious text, it has no free press, allows no dissent, no independent judiciary, no seperation of Church and State (it is a theocracy after all) it runs National conferences on why the Nazi Holocaust was a myth, releases advice pamphlets on why America is "the great Satan" (please), it has the death penalty for what are essentially "lifestyle" crimes, it brooks zero criticism of its own brand of Islam or its own governance, and you accuse other people of orwellian double speak?

The Iranian President brought the UN into disrepute the other week, he made a mockery of the whole concept of the UN, its not there as a platform for expressing bigoted hate-filled rhetoric at Jews (though many Muslim countries want it to be precisely that). It was set up post WW II by the Allied Powers in the aftermath of a European Nazi Tyranny that did its best to exterminate the Jewish race and destroy Western Civilization and Christianity for good, it would be a grim Irony if it does indeed become a new platform (paid for by Western taxpayers BTW) for the new Nazi's in our midst, the religiously minded ones why have roughly the same agenda.

What would you consider a "constructive" position on Israel? The EU supports all UN resolutions in relation to Israel-Palestine, it provides the PA with the money that sustains it, it asks Hamas to desist from political violence and offers to aid the Gaza once more if it does, it criticizes Israel for its militarist approach to what is a poltical problem.

So what do you suggest? Let me guess, that Israel be condemned as an Imperialist, Zionist, Running-Dog, Capitalist Lackey State, and that it be destroyed as a historical act of "Justice" I suppose?

Count me out on that one.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:54 pm

Bill Sikes;1181240 wrote: That's not what I asked. I asked

And you actually said previously:

So, to clarify, do you really suggest the the treatment dished out to Arab citizens of Israel is the same as that given to members of the UK population?

No, I didn't suggest that, you are simply implying that I did. The modern U.K. is a far more equality-oriented country than Israel. That doesn't mean that there is no discrimination in the U.K., but no more than anywhere else.

In general, in the Republic of Ireland or the U.K. your treatment under the law will depend upon your access to money, patronage, and social status, (essentially middle-class people don't do time, poor people do). Generally your treatment will not be based on your religion (and we have lots of anti-discrimination laws, apparently), unless of course your Catholic and you want to be the Monarch or some other constitutional position in the U.K. (look up the act of Supremacy and Settlement for Clarification). Also, I can't recall when we had Protestant President of the ROI, or Taoiseach, because of course we never have had one, it would be nice one day to have an Irish Protestant for President.

Also, of course, if your a Catholic in Northern Ireland (which of course is an "integral" part of the U.K. so they are also U.K. citizens) who lived through the 1920s to the 1980s, experiencing gerrymandering, one party Protestant State, housing quotas, B-Specials, state collusion with Protestant Paramilitaries, State Internment, British Army occupation of Catholic "ghettos", judicial murder, shoot-to-kill policies, you might have a interesting opinion on the equity of U.K. law. What was that old British saying again? "Innocent until proven Irish", or some such?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:05 pm

Galbally;1181247 wrote: Sorry, how many Christian "settlements" are there in Tehran? Or Buddist ones? Or Atheist societies, or Homosexual Bars, what is the status of Women in Tehran? Do they have equal status with their male counterparts, what's their legal "status" in relation to property. Iranians would say that they have their own ways, and their own way of organizing things and to suggest they should rethink that, is based on White European Imperialist Christian attitudes, good for them, thats their business, what the Israelis do in Israel is also "their business" based on the same rational reversed. Black is white eh?

So,how many Jews are in the Government of the "Islamic Republic" of Iran anyway then (hint, the clue is in the word "Islamic Republic").

This is a nonsense, sorry Scrat I am Western, and I don't do the moral universalist thing. Israel was founded as a Jewish homeland, so what? Ireland is the homeland of Irish people, who happen to be mostly Catholics, so what?

Iranians are welcome to Iran, its their country, but to me its a despotic dictatorship, its a theocracy run by a bunch of hate-filled old clerics, with a dead hand on every aspect of the ordinary lives of Iranians, (who are a well-educated nation of people with a proud history and culture, governed by a bad government), it's roving buffoon of a President denies the existence of homosexuality (for starters), even in front of incredulous educated global audiences.

Which is not surprising seeing as he runs a country that has an entire code of law and system of governance based on a narrow vision of a medival religious text, it has no free press, allows no dissent, no independent judiciary, no seperation of Church and State (it is a theocracy after all) it runs National conferences on why the Nazi Holocaust was a myth, releases advice pamphlets on why America is "the great Satan" (please), it has the death penalty for what are essentially "lifestyle" crimes, it brooks zero criticism of its own brand of Islam or its own governance, and you accuse other people of orwellian double speak?

The Iranian President brought the UN into disrepute the other week, he made a mockery of the whole concept of the UN, its not there as a platform for expressing bigoted hate-filled rhetoric at Jews (though many Muslim countries want it to be precisely that). It was set up post WW II by the Allied Powers in the aftermath of a European Nazi Tyranny that did its best to exterminate the Jewish race and destroy Western Civilization and Christianity for good, it would be a grim Irony if it does indeed become a new platform (paid for by Western taxpayers BTW) for the new Nazi's in our midst, the religiously minded ones why have roughly the same agenda.

What would you consider a "constructive" position on Israel? The EU supports all UN resolutions in relation to Israel-Palestine, it provides the PA with the money that sustains it, it asks Hamas to desist from political violence and offers to aid the Gaza once more if it does, it criticizes Israel for its militarist approach to what is a poltical problem.

So what do you suggest? Let me guess, that Israel be condemned as an Imperialist, Zionist, Running-Dog, Capitalist Lackey State, and that it be destroyed as a historical act of "Justice" I suppose?

Count me out on that one.

I do not dispute the current situation, I only ask what the situation would have been had the West not done their damnedest for the last fifty years and more to destroy Iran and her people?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:13 pm

Bryn Mawr;1181238 wrote: Arab citizens of Israel / Israeli Arabs - whatever you want to call them.

Thank you for clarifying Bryn.