New foreclosure defense: Prove I owe you - Mortgage Mess- msnbc.com
New foreclosure defense: Prove I owe you
Homeowners demand lenders produce original documents — some can’t

updated 12:59 p.m. PT, Tues., Feb. 17, 2009
ZEPHYRHILLS, Fla. - Kathy Lovelace lost her job and was about to lose her house, too. But then she made a seemingly simple request of the bank: Show me the original mortgage paperwork.
And just like that, the foreclosure proceedings came to a standstill.
Lovelace and other homeowners around the country are managing to stave off foreclosure by employing a strategy that goes to the heart of the whole nationwide mess.
"I'm going to hang on for dear life until they can prove to me it belongs to them," says Kathy Lovelace, a 50-year-old divorced mother who owns a $200,000 home in Zephyrhills, near Tampa. "I'll try everything I can because it's all I have left."
View related photos
During the real estate frenzy of the past decade, mortgages were sold and resold, bundled into securities and peddled to investors. In many cases, the original note signed by the homeowner was lost, stored away in a distant warehouse or destroyed.
Persuading a judge to compel production of hard-to-find or nonexistent documents can, at the very least, delay foreclosure, buying the homeowner some time and turning up the pressure on the lender to renegotiate the mortgage.
"I'm going to hang on for dear life until they can prove to me it belongs to them," said Lovelace, a 50-year-old divorced mother who owns a $200,000 home in Zephyrhills, near Tampa. "I'll try everything I can because it's all I have left."
In interviews with The Associated Press, lawyers, homeowners and advocates outlined the produce-the-note strategy. Exactly how many homeowners have employed it is unknown. Nor is it clear how successful it has been; some judges are more sympathetic than others.
More than 2.3 million homeowners faced foreclosure proceedings last year and millions more are in danger of losing their homes. On Wednesday, President Obama will unveil a plan to spend at least $50 billion to help homeowners fend off foreclosure.
Chris Hoyer, a Tampa lawyer whose Consumer Warning Network Web site offers the free court documents Lovelace used to file her request, has played a major role in promoting the produce-the-note strategy.
"We knew early on that the only relief that would ever come to people would be to the people who were in their houses," Hoyer said. "Nobody was going to fashion any relief for people who have already lost their houses. So your only hope was to hang on any way you could."
Homeowners striking back.
-
wildhorses
- Posts: 648
- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:08 pm
Homeowners striking back.
Scrat;1138793 wrote: Good to see. I heard about a sheriff out in the midwest that also refused to evict people from their homes. A good man.
New foreclosure defense: Prove I owe you - Mortgage Mess- msnbc.com
Do you not have a central land registry in the states? How would you find out who owned a particular property if you wanted to buy it?
New foreclosure defense: Prove I owe you - Mortgage Mess- msnbc.com
Do you not have a central land registry in the states? How would you find out who owned a particular property if you wanted to buy it?
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Homeowners striking back.
gmc;1138850 wrote: Do you not have a central land registry in the states? How would you find out who owned a particular property if you wanted to buy it? That's a good point 
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Homeowners striking back.
Scrat;1138793 wrote: Good to see.
It's better to see people living within their means. The story gives no indication whatsoever whether she deserves our sympathy.
It's better to see people living within their means. The story gives no indication whatsoever whether she deserves our sympathy.
Homeowners striking back.
Accountable;1138912 wrote: It's better to see people living within their means. The story gives no indication whatsoever whether she deserves our sympathy.
She lost her job which is presumably why she can't pay the mortgage. Since the present economic crisis is caused by the banks giving dodgy loans to high risk customers there's no case at all for feeling sorry for the bank I would have thought.
If they have lost the mortgage papers who owns the property if they can't prove that they do? They've maneged to lose millions a few legal documents missong shouldn't be too big a shock.
She lost her job which is presumably why she can't pay the mortgage. Since the present economic crisis is caused by the banks giving dodgy loans to high risk customers there's no case at all for feeling sorry for the bank I would have thought.
If they have lost the mortgage papers who owns the property if they can't prove that they do? They've maneged to lose millions a few legal documents missong shouldn't be too big a shock.
Homeowners striking back.
Accountable;1138912 wrote: It's better to see people living within their means. The story gives no indication whatsoever whether she deserves our sympathy.
Hubs & I were just talking about this last night and we agree with you there Acc. We are living in a twin house with 3 bedrooms, 2 baths. A nice back yard and deck and is worth about $100,000.00 Hubs bought it for around $21,000 in '86 and refurbished the whole thing. We owe around $4,000 on it now. Never remortgaged it (hubs thought it foolish and he was right). Why do we the responsible homeowners who are living within our means have to bail out stupid peeps who overbought homes they couldn't afford?:mad:
Hubs & I were just talking about this last night and we agree with you there Acc. We are living in a twin house with 3 bedrooms, 2 baths. A nice back yard and deck and is worth about $100,000.00 Hubs bought it for around $21,000 in '86 and refurbished the whole thing. We owe around $4,000 on it now. Never remortgaged it (hubs thought it foolish and he was right). Why do we the responsible homeowners who are living within our means have to bail out stupid peeps who overbought homes they couldn't afford?:mad:
-
scholle-kid
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:53 pm
Homeowners striking back.
gmc;1138850 wrote: Do you not have a central land registry in the states? How would you find out who owned a particular property if you wanted to buy it?
If someone was looking to buy a property they would go to the county court house and see who's name it is recorded in.
We have a property tax we pay yearly. the property is recorded in the county court house and the assess office will asses it in November then the county treasure will send out tax bills in January. The bank holding the loan against the property and the county have no connection at all. When I bought my place i paid it in full one payment so I had a clear deed to record. but when a person uses a bank for financing a place they get what is called a warranty deed and that's what they take to the county to record the property and become responsable for paying the taxes.
If someone was looking to buy a property they would go to the county court house and see who's name it is recorded in.
We have a property tax we pay yearly. the property is recorded in the county court house and the assess office will asses it in November then the county treasure will send out tax bills in January. The bank holding the loan against the property and the county have no connection at all. When I bought my place i paid it in full one payment so I had a clear deed to record. but when a person uses a bank for financing a place they get what is called a warranty deed and that's what they take to the county to record the property and become responsable for paying the taxes.
There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only different cultures.
Homeowners striking back.
gmc;1138850 wrote: Do you not have a central land registry in the states? How would you find out who owned a particular property if you wanted to buy it?
The Land Registry would record the fact that Joe Blogs bought the property, it might even record the fact that it was bought with a mortgage from the Acme Building Society but it would not record the fact that the mortgage was sold on to ABC Investments or that they bundled it with a thousand other risky mortgages and sold that to XYZ Banking Corporation or that they bundled the bundle with a hundred others and sold it to ......
The suggestion is that, whilst the bundles recorded the names and addresses of the mortgagee they did not include the original signed piece of paper without which a judge would have a hard time ruling against the occupant.
The Land Registry would record the fact that Joe Blogs bought the property, it might even record the fact that it was bought with a mortgage from the Acme Building Society but it would not record the fact that the mortgage was sold on to ABC Investments or that they bundled it with a thousand other risky mortgages and sold that to XYZ Banking Corporation or that they bundled the bundle with a hundred others and sold it to ......
The suggestion is that, whilst the bundles recorded the names and addresses of the mortgagee they did not include the original signed piece of paper without which a judge would have a hard time ruling against the occupant.
Homeowners striking back.
Jester;1139337 wrote: One of the compnies I worked for had a saying 'if its not documented it never happened'.
I think the folks who call the loan should have the actual papers the home buyer 'signed', other wise they should be able to walk away from the loan without consequence. If they leave the house, then the debt is null and void.
I agree - let's see if the judge upholds it.
I think the folks who call the loan should have the actual papers the home buyer 'signed', other wise they should be able to walk away from the loan without consequence. If they leave the house, then the debt is null and void.
I agree - let's see if the judge upholds it.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Homeowners striking back.
Accountable;1138912 wrote: It's better to see people living within their means. The story gives no indication whatsoever whether she deserves our sympathy.
gmc;1139136 wrote: She lost her job which is presumably why she can't pay the mortgage. Since the present economic crisis is caused by the banks giving dodgy loans to high risk customers there's no case at all for feeling sorry for the bank I would have thought.
If they have lost the mortgage papers who owns the property if they can't prove that they do? They've maneged to lose millions a few legal documents missong shouldn't be too big a shock.
I understand the story is really about the banks' shoddy record-keeping, but it was clearly slanted to cast a sympathetic light on the homeowners, implying all but actually saying nothing. There's no reason at all to feel sorry for the bank. I'm not sure there's valid reason to root for the homeowner, either.
gmc;1139136 wrote: She lost her job which is presumably why she can't pay the mortgage. Since the present economic crisis is caused by the banks giving dodgy loans to high risk customers there's no case at all for feeling sorry for the bank I would have thought.
If they have lost the mortgage papers who owns the property if they can't prove that they do? They've maneged to lose millions a few legal documents missong shouldn't be too big a shock.
I understand the story is really about the banks' shoddy record-keeping, but it was clearly slanted to cast a sympathetic light on the homeowners, implying all but actually saying nothing. There's no reason at all to feel sorry for the bank. I'm not sure there's valid reason to root for the homeowner, either.
Homeowners striking back.
Scrat;1139605 wrote: I'm rooting for the homeowner. What the hell, if people like Madoff can run 50 billion dollar ponzi schemes and only get confined to their penthouses when they get caught why can't an average american citizen keep their house in times like this?
Too many hard working, honest, good Americans are paying a price for things beyond their control.
What the Hell Scrat, Madoff should be our Treasury Secretary.............
He has the qualifications:
1) he is a democrat
2) he would fit right in with Tim Geithner. (see below)
This what Tim Geithner told congress in his conformation hearings about not paying his taxes (and why couldn't another democrat, Madoff claim the same thing?)
"careless" and "avoidable" mistakes while insisting they were unintentional.
Yah I think Madoff might fill our coffers faster than Geithner will.
Just look at his track record:sneaky::)
Too many hard working, honest, good Americans are paying a price for things beyond their control.
What the Hell Scrat, Madoff should be our Treasury Secretary.............
He has the qualifications:
1) he is a democrat
2) he would fit right in with Tim Geithner. (see below)
This what Tim Geithner told congress in his conformation hearings about not paying his taxes (and why couldn't another democrat, Madoff claim the same thing?)
"careless" and "avoidable" mistakes while insisting they were unintentional.
Yah I think Madoff might fill our coffers faster than Geithner will.
Just look at his track record:sneaky::)
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Homeowners striking back.
Scrat;1139706 wrote: JAB. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Ethics be damned? You sound like a schoolkid.
"Well, HE did it first!!"
Ethics be damned? You sound like a schoolkid.
"Well, HE did it first!!"