Imternational Middle East envoy Tony Blair flie's out to ME to call for a cease-fire. Downing Street is 'Horrified' by the violence shown by Israel.
Blair visits Middle East amid pressure to broker ceasefire - World Politics, World - The Independent
The Whitehouse blames Hamas for Gaza violence.
White House blames Hamas for Gaza violence - Americas, World - The Independent
The Whitehouse is blaming hamas for breaking a cease-fire by launching rocket attacks.
Oh yes, and who supplied Israel with their military capability???
Israel bombs Gaza.
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Oscar Namechange
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Israel bombs Gaza.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Israel bombs Gaza.
Scrat;1096198 wrote: That's what the politicians thought in Iraq and Afghanistan too. Look where we are now. Ever hear of the term "troop surge"? I wonder if it has anything to do with NOT DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!!
What's unthinkable is the cost of a war machine like the one we have that can't even subdue 3rd world countries. Gimme a break.
I guess that's they way the nutcase Zionists look at it. The world doesn't need them, they're terrorists in their own right. Maybe we should bomb them. The world wouldn't miss them I would guess. Seems to me they are both the same people too.
Don't worry, we'll be getting the bill. Israel couldn't afford it without the welfare check.
The Jews were far from the majority of Europeans that died in that war, it seems to me that they play the victim card for all it is worth. And more. Pathetic.
Wish 'em luck. They'll have to do better than they did in 2006. Considering the state of the Gaza strip they might have actually beat them down enough to finally solve the "Palestinian Question". I suspect they might pay a heavy toll doing it though. I wonder if they have the balls to go into those cities. We'll see. They'll see the best and I hope it costs them dearly.
I have just read on-line that Obama is refusing to comment after being briefed by Rice. he says 'One President at a time'. That's code for 'Oh *****, what the hell do i do now?'
What's unthinkable is the cost of a war machine like the one we have that can't even subdue 3rd world countries. Gimme a break.
I guess that's they way the nutcase Zionists look at it. The world doesn't need them, they're terrorists in their own right. Maybe we should bomb them. The world wouldn't miss them I would guess. Seems to me they are both the same people too.
Don't worry, we'll be getting the bill. Israel couldn't afford it without the welfare check.
The Jews were far from the majority of Europeans that died in that war, it seems to me that they play the victim card for all it is worth. And more. Pathetic.
Wish 'em luck. They'll have to do better than they did in 2006. Considering the state of the Gaza strip they might have actually beat them down enough to finally solve the "Palestinian Question". I suspect they might pay a heavy toll doing it though. I wonder if they have the balls to go into those cities. We'll see. They'll see the best and I hope it costs them dearly.
I have just read on-line that Obama is refusing to comment after being briefed by Rice. he says 'One President at a time'. That's code for 'Oh *****, what the hell do i do now?'
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Israel bombs Gaza.
Scrat;1096205 wrote: He's letting Bush finish his term is all. As he said, one president at a time. Maybe he does have the guts to put an end to our support of these Zionist terrorists. I doubt it though.
Here's the stats on WWII, 42 million people died in that war. All we hear is Israeli propaganda.
World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks, i put a thread on for Jester on Page 5 with a link for the Polish, Russian and Catholic's that were in the Holocaust as well. As you said, It's all propoganda for the Israeli's to claim is was only Jews massacered by the nazi regime.
Here's the stats on WWII, 42 million people died in that war. All we hear is Israeli propaganda.
World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks, i put a thread on for Jester on Page 5 with a link for the Polish, Russian and Catholic's that were in the Holocaust as well. As you said, It's all propoganda for the Israeli's to claim is was only Jews massacered by the nazi regime.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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freetobeme
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Israel bombs Gaza.
How many Muslim/Arab, Jewish, Christians or Hindu children do you think will have to die before the Muslim/Arab world decides that it is better to live at peace with other religions and races, rather than in hatred, racism, misery and violence?
The Civilian deaths and the fact that Israel must go to war in Gaza lie directly and squarely with Hamas. They are the ones who bring their children near to weapons factories, and set up their infrastructure near civilians, they are the ones who, in 2005, decided to breakup the greenhouses for military supplies instead of using them for more productive means. They are the ones who have rained down rockets upon Israel during the cease fire, let me see, thousands of them lobbed in Israel on a daily basis.
Maybe Israel should simply lob rockets indiscriminately every day into Palestine, or maybe Israel should offer proportionate response to the Palestinian wish to exterminate all Israel/Jews, but they don't.
The Civilian deaths and the fact that Israel must go to war in Gaza lie directly and squarely with Hamas. They are the ones who bring their children near to weapons factories, and set up their infrastructure near civilians, they are the ones who, in 2005, decided to breakup the greenhouses for military supplies instead of using them for more productive means. They are the ones who have rained down rockets upon Israel during the cease fire, let me see, thousands of them lobbed in Israel on a daily basis.
Maybe Israel should simply lob rockets indiscriminately every day into Palestine, or maybe Israel should offer proportionate response to the Palestinian wish to exterminate all Israel/Jews, but they don't.
senior's politics and discussion
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Oscar Namechange
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Israel bombs Gaza.
freetobeme;1096214 wrote: How many Muslim/Arab, Jewish, Christians or Hindu children do you think will have to die before the Muslim/Arab world decides that it is better to live at peace with other religions and races, rather than in hatred, racism, misery and violence?
The Civilian deaths and the fact that Israel must go to war in Gaza lie directly and squarely with Hamas. They are the ones who bring their children near to weapons factories, and set up their infrastructure near civilians, they are the ones who, in 2005, decided to breakup the greenhouses for military supplies instead of using them for more productive means. They are the ones who have rained down rockets upon Israel during the cease fire, let me see, thousands of them lobbed in Israel on a daily basis.
Maybe Israel should simply lob rockets indiscriminately every day into Palestine, or maybe Israel should offer proportionate response to the Palestinian wish to exterminate all Israel/Jews, but they don't.
The whole issue of the violence shown by Israel to Hamas is 'proportion'.
Israel is a country fueled by hatred and will never be satisfied until they have broken all borders and reclaimed land that they 'believe' is rightfully theirs dispit admitting that they have acquired land illegally in the past.
Israel is the country that rules American politicians and to a certain extent, American money. In return, America supports, funds and is responsible for the past and present violence of Israel. If you took away American military aid, they would be in the same position as Hamas and then at least, the war in Gaza would be equally matched.
Hamas do not have the military capability to launch a full scale attack on Israel and never have had.
The proportion you need to google is how many Israeli dead and wounded from Hamas rocket attacks and how many innocents dead and wounded by Israel's violence now and in the past.
To threaten a land invasion is nothing more than to threaten a blood-bath and massacre of Hamas.
I hope to hell the US withdraws their military aid and leaves Israel at the mercy of Hamas in a land battle with no American fighting machines. I hope the British bombs the **** out of all military bases in Israel.
The Civilian deaths and the fact that Israel must go to war in Gaza lie directly and squarely with Hamas. They are the ones who bring their children near to weapons factories, and set up their infrastructure near civilians, they are the ones who, in 2005, decided to breakup the greenhouses for military supplies instead of using them for more productive means. They are the ones who have rained down rockets upon Israel during the cease fire, let me see, thousands of them lobbed in Israel on a daily basis.
Maybe Israel should simply lob rockets indiscriminately every day into Palestine, or maybe Israel should offer proportionate response to the Palestinian wish to exterminate all Israel/Jews, but they don't.
The whole issue of the violence shown by Israel to Hamas is 'proportion'.
Israel is a country fueled by hatred and will never be satisfied until they have broken all borders and reclaimed land that they 'believe' is rightfully theirs dispit admitting that they have acquired land illegally in the past.
Israel is the country that rules American politicians and to a certain extent, American money. In return, America supports, funds and is responsible for the past and present violence of Israel. If you took away American military aid, they would be in the same position as Hamas and then at least, the war in Gaza would be equally matched.
Hamas do not have the military capability to launch a full scale attack on Israel and never have had.
The proportion you need to google is how many Israeli dead and wounded from Hamas rocket attacks and how many innocents dead and wounded by Israel's violence now and in the past.
To threaten a land invasion is nothing more than to threaten a blood-bath and massacre of Hamas.
I hope to hell the US withdraws their military aid and leaves Israel at the mercy of Hamas in a land battle with no American fighting machines. I hope the British bombs the **** out of all military bases in Israel.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Israel bombs Gaza.
Scrat;1096234 wrote: I want to say that in the past Jews have always lived there in the "promised land". They lived under the Romans the Ottomans and many others side by side with Arabs. It was not until the Zionists came along that things went to hell in just the last century or so.
Zionists want to have a state of only Jewish people or at best everyone else second class citizens. This is the goal of the Zionists. It's racist it's immoral and inhuman. Look it up.
Well said.
Zionists want to have a state of only Jewish people or at best everyone else second class citizens. This is the goal of the Zionists. It's racist it's immoral and inhuman. Look it up.
Well said.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Israel bombs Gaza.
Okay. my turn to wade into this intermiable debate about Israel/Palestine
In terms of what's happening now.
Israel has decided that it has until January 21st 2009 to destroy Hamas militarily. They perceive Hamas as an implacable enemy and have decided that the most effective way of dealing with Hamas is to totally destroy them militarily. They have a short window of opportunity to achieve this, so they have decided to take it. This is a war and the Israelis intend on prosecuting it to the finish. The fact that President Elect Obama has so far made no comment regarding this, indicates that he realizes what the policy is, he is aquiescing in it for now, and we will have to wait until he is President before we see what he intends to do.
They will most likely invade Gaza, occupy it for a short period, and essentially destroy it, killing as many Hamas people as they can find. They will ignore any overtures from Hamas about ceasefires and peace, and will also ignore all outside pressure, until Obama takes office in the US. Once they have destroyed Hamas they intend on handing control of the re-occupied Gaza strip back to the Fatah people on the West Bank.
Undoubtedly there are going to be very high numbers of civilian deaths, but they have already decided that they will pay this price for their long-term security. Israel is essentially going for broke, and have decided that peace in the region is unobtainable at present, given the current actors involved in the middle east, and that all-out war is option they are taking, as they percieve that they are in a defacto war on several fronts anyway, they are just upping the temperature of it and prosecuting it on their own terms.
In terms of what's happening I can understand what the Israeli strategy is, and from their perspective it may make sense, though I am not saying I agree with it, just that there is a logic to it. The problem is that this may backfire, obviously what is happening to ordinary Palestinians caught under the bombs its a terrifying and horrific situation, and it is going to provoke reaction from the enemies and friends of Israel because of the suffering and death this is creating. Israel may end up finding itself back in a wider war before too long if this goes on for any length of time. Also, if Hamas are not completely destroyed then they will have done this for nothing.
Also, the longer this goes on, and the more innocent people get killed, the greater the reaction against Israel from the outside world is going to get. Even Israel's staunchest allies in the US may start to get qualms about supporting this if it turns into a complete bloodbath, and it will generate a huge backlash against Israel.
To be honest the Israelis already consider themselves at war with much of the Islamic world anyway, they don't really give a damn what Europeans think, and don't see Europeans as their friends but as weak appeasers, they also refuse to take lectures from Europeans about the horrors of war and genocide (which is understandable if your a Jew) but they do care about what the US thinks, and thats where they may run into problems, as there may end up being a serious backlash against Israel in the US if this situation gets any worse.
I think also its important to realize that this also probably represents a significant change in overall Israeli policy in regards to its relations within the Middle East, they have obviously been shaken by recent military failures in Lebanon with Hezbollah and also against Hamas in Gaza, and they are demonstrating that they are no longer going to allow themselves to appear weak to whom they percieve as their enemies.
For the coming year, that may be worrying, there are increasing signs that Iran is going to be soon at the point of being able to produce a nuclear weapon, given the Israelis new very hardline doctrine, and go-for-broke mentality its very likely that if the outside world doesn't come up with a coherent policy on what to do about Iranian nuclear ambitions, then the Israelis will attack Iran within the year, what the consequences would be, one can only guess at this stage. Though general regional war would certainly be one of them possibly.
If that were to happen, and Israel was to start losing a conventional war, then its important to point out that many Arab organizations proclaimed goal is to drive all the jews of the levant into the sea and remove Israel from the map, and those Jews have several hundred Nuclear Weapons and the means to deliver them on every major city in the middle east. Given Jewish history, I have no doubt that should Israel ever be faced with military defeat and invasion by Arab soliders, they would launch those weapons.
Joe Liberman remarked during the Presidential campaign that President Obama was going to have to deal with a major international crisis within 6 months of his taking of office. I think what's happening now in Gaza are the opening shots of what that Crisis will be, which in my opinion is going to be a high possibility of a general war between Israel and Iran, and maybe several other involved countries.
2009 is already shaping up to be a very uncomfortable year in many ways.
In terms of what's happening now.
Israel has decided that it has until January 21st 2009 to destroy Hamas militarily. They perceive Hamas as an implacable enemy and have decided that the most effective way of dealing with Hamas is to totally destroy them militarily. They have a short window of opportunity to achieve this, so they have decided to take it. This is a war and the Israelis intend on prosecuting it to the finish. The fact that President Elect Obama has so far made no comment regarding this, indicates that he realizes what the policy is, he is aquiescing in it for now, and we will have to wait until he is President before we see what he intends to do.
They will most likely invade Gaza, occupy it for a short period, and essentially destroy it, killing as many Hamas people as they can find. They will ignore any overtures from Hamas about ceasefires and peace, and will also ignore all outside pressure, until Obama takes office in the US. Once they have destroyed Hamas they intend on handing control of the re-occupied Gaza strip back to the Fatah people on the West Bank.
Undoubtedly there are going to be very high numbers of civilian deaths, but they have already decided that they will pay this price for their long-term security. Israel is essentially going for broke, and have decided that peace in the region is unobtainable at present, given the current actors involved in the middle east, and that all-out war is option they are taking, as they percieve that they are in a defacto war on several fronts anyway, they are just upping the temperature of it and prosecuting it on their own terms.
In terms of what's happening I can understand what the Israeli strategy is, and from their perspective it may make sense, though I am not saying I agree with it, just that there is a logic to it. The problem is that this may backfire, obviously what is happening to ordinary Palestinians caught under the bombs its a terrifying and horrific situation, and it is going to provoke reaction from the enemies and friends of Israel because of the suffering and death this is creating. Israel may end up finding itself back in a wider war before too long if this goes on for any length of time. Also, if Hamas are not completely destroyed then they will have done this for nothing.
Also, the longer this goes on, and the more innocent people get killed, the greater the reaction against Israel from the outside world is going to get. Even Israel's staunchest allies in the US may start to get qualms about supporting this if it turns into a complete bloodbath, and it will generate a huge backlash against Israel.
To be honest the Israelis already consider themselves at war with much of the Islamic world anyway, they don't really give a damn what Europeans think, and don't see Europeans as their friends but as weak appeasers, they also refuse to take lectures from Europeans about the horrors of war and genocide (which is understandable if your a Jew) but they do care about what the US thinks, and thats where they may run into problems, as there may end up being a serious backlash against Israel in the US if this situation gets any worse.
I think also its important to realize that this also probably represents a significant change in overall Israeli policy in regards to its relations within the Middle East, they have obviously been shaken by recent military failures in Lebanon with Hezbollah and also against Hamas in Gaza, and they are demonstrating that they are no longer going to allow themselves to appear weak to whom they percieve as their enemies.
For the coming year, that may be worrying, there are increasing signs that Iran is going to be soon at the point of being able to produce a nuclear weapon, given the Israelis new very hardline doctrine, and go-for-broke mentality its very likely that if the outside world doesn't come up with a coherent policy on what to do about Iranian nuclear ambitions, then the Israelis will attack Iran within the year, what the consequences would be, one can only guess at this stage. Though general regional war would certainly be one of them possibly.
If that were to happen, and Israel was to start losing a conventional war, then its important to point out that many Arab organizations proclaimed goal is to drive all the jews of the levant into the sea and remove Israel from the map, and those Jews have several hundred Nuclear Weapons and the means to deliver them on every major city in the middle east. Given Jewish history, I have no doubt that should Israel ever be faced with military defeat and invasion by Arab soliders, they would launch those weapons.
Joe Liberman remarked during the Presidential campaign that President Obama was going to have to deal with a major international crisis within 6 months of his taking of office. I think what's happening now in Gaza are the opening shots of what that Crisis will be, which in my opinion is going to be a high possibility of a general war between Israel and Iran, and maybe several other involved countries.
2009 is already shaping up to be a very uncomfortable year in many ways.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Israel bombs Gaza.
If what you describe were possible then perhaps that would account for the killings. Hamas has as much presence in the Lebanon as it does in the Gaza Strip, the most the Israelis can aim for is killing those at hand and that's futile. At the same time it'll involve deaths on a far larger scale than the "mere" 350 so far.
What has to happen, eventually, is a judicial calling to account for all these civilian deaths. It means no Israeli involved will be able to travel in, for example, Europe, without diplomatic immunity because it would result in personal criminal proceedings. That's fine by me.
It's folly to call this a war. The Palestinians have nothing to fight with, the Israelis have entire tank divisions not to mention personnel carriers. When one side is immune to danger and the other dies indiscriminately it's not a war, it's a massacre.
What has to happen, eventually, is a judicial calling to account for all these civilian deaths. It means no Israeli involved will be able to travel in, for example, Europe, without diplomatic immunity because it would result in personal criminal proceedings. That's fine by me.
It's folly to call this a war. The Palestinians have nothing to fight with, the Israelis have entire tank divisions not to mention personnel carriers. When one side is immune to danger and the other dies indiscriminately it's not a war, it's a massacre.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Israel bombs Gaza.
spot;1096359 wrote: If what you describe were possible then perhaps that would account for the killings. Hamas has as much presence in the Lebanon as it does in the Gaza Strip, the most the Israelis can aim for is killing those at hand and that's futile. At the same time it'll involve deaths on a far larger scale than the "mere" 350 so far.
What has to happen, eventually, is a judicial calling to account for all these civilian deaths. It means no Israeli involved will be able to travel in, for example, Europe, without diplomatic immunity because it would result in personal criminal proceedings. That's fine by me.
It's folly to call this a war. The Palestinians have nothing to fight with, the Israelis have entire tank divisions not to mention personnel carriers. When one side is immune to danger and the other dies indiscriminately it's not a war, it's a massacre.
No, its a war alright, and it has been for years. Its just a war where one side has total military superiority. Its similar to the way that what happened in Northern Ireland between 1968 and 1994 was also actually a civil war between Unionists and Nationalists, and a war between the IRA much of the Catholic population, and Britain; but it was understandably publicized in Britain as a "police action against terrorists", and in the Republic as "The Troubles" as we like to use euphemisms to make things sound better.
Thankfully the British government decided to simply contain that war by reoccupying Northern Ireland with mainland British Army units, bringing in internment without trial, and keeping as much of a lid on the IRA as possible, while also shooting the odd civilian who got in the way. They never quite got to the point of using aerial RAF bombardments against Derry or Dublin for that matter, though of course they did blow the crap out of Dublin in 1974 to teach the southerners to stay out of the North if they knew what was good for them (it worked by the way).
This is because to use such naked military force would have been politically unacceptable in Britain, and the British were wise enough not to go down that route. The Israelis are much more militaristic in their approach to their problems, which is probably as a result of their racial history, their own sense of vunerability and being surrounded by enemies on all sides, and the general culture of the region and its unhappy history.
I am not making any moral judgements on the Israeli-Arab thing, its too depressing, and just seems so intractable. I just hope that some day the people of that war-torn place can learn to live in peace with each other on their little bit of land. I won't hold out much hope for that though, not in the short term anyway.
What has to happen, eventually, is a judicial calling to account for all these civilian deaths. It means no Israeli involved will be able to travel in, for example, Europe, without diplomatic immunity because it would result in personal criminal proceedings. That's fine by me.
It's folly to call this a war. The Palestinians have nothing to fight with, the Israelis have entire tank divisions not to mention personnel carriers. When one side is immune to danger and the other dies indiscriminately it's not a war, it's a massacre.
No, its a war alright, and it has been for years. Its just a war where one side has total military superiority. Its similar to the way that what happened in Northern Ireland between 1968 and 1994 was also actually a civil war between Unionists and Nationalists, and a war between the IRA much of the Catholic population, and Britain; but it was understandably publicized in Britain as a "police action against terrorists", and in the Republic as "The Troubles" as we like to use euphemisms to make things sound better.
Thankfully the British government decided to simply contain that war by reoccupying Northern Ireland with mainland British Army units, bringing in internment without trial, and keeping as much of a lid on the IRA as possible, while also shooting the odd civilian who got in the way. They never quite got to the point of using aerial RAF bombardments against Derry or Dublin for that matter, though of course they did blow the crap out of Dublin in 1974 to teach the southerners to stay out of the North if they knew what was good for them (it worked by the way).
This is because to use such naked military force would have been politically unacceptable in Britain, and the British were wise enough not to go down that route. The Israelis are much more militaristic in their approach to their problems, which is probably as a result of their racial history, their own sense of vunerability and being surrounded by enemies on all sides, and the general culture of the region and its unhappy history.
I am not making any moral judgements on the Israeli-Arab thing, its too depressing, and just seems so intractable. I just hope that some day the people of that war-torn place can learn to live in peace with each other on their little bit of land. I won't hold out much hope for that though, not in the short term anyway.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Israel bombs Gaza.
spot;1096359 wrote: If what you describe were possible then perhaps that would account for the killings. Hamas has as much presence in the Lebanon as it does in the Gaza Strip, the most the Israelis can aim for is killing those at hand and that's futile. At the same time it'll involve deaths on a far larger scale than the "mere" 350 so far.
What has to happen, eventually, is a judicial calling to account for all these civilian deaths. It means no Israeli involved will be able to travel in, for example, Europe, without diplomatic immunity because it would result in personal criminal proceedings. That's fine by me.
It's folly to call this a war. The Palestinians have nothing to fight with, the Israelis have entire tank divisions not to mention personnel carriers. When one side is immune to danger and the other dies indiscriminately it's not a war, it's a massacre.
I agree Spot.
It reminds me of The Zulu's.
I'd also like to see no Israeli immune to prosecution within Britain.
For Jester and galbally. If Israel had their way and drove Hamas out of Gaza.... Then what?? Peace for ever more??? I don't think so!
What has to happen, eventually, is a judicial calling to account for all these civilian deaths. It means no Israeli involved will be able to travel in, for example, Europe, without diplomatic immunity because it would result in personal criminal proceedings. That's fine by me.
It's folly to call this a war. The Palestinians have nothing to fight with, the Israelis have entire tank divisions not to mention personnel carriers. When one side is immune to danger and the other dies indiscriminately it's not a war, it's a massacre.
I agree Spot.
It reminds me of The Zulu's.
I'd also like to see no Israeli immune to prosecution within Britain.
For Jester and galbally. If Israel had their way and drove Hamas out of Gaza.... Then what?? Peace for ever more??? I don't think so!
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Israel bombs Gaza.
Jester;1096291 wrote: You guys kill me... (oscar,scrat,spot)
Israel is sitting on land that has traditionally been thiers for centuries upon centuries, the 1920-1948 sanctions gave them the right to posess it and now that they have it they are fighting for it saying never again will we be beat back inot submission and yer dang right they will fight for it after all they have been through, I know I would. Isreal has built up that land out of the desert and made it what it is today with hard work by god.
Of course its a blood bath remember its called WAR and people die in war.
If you google 'palestine' under maps you get one return and its Palestine Texas USA. There is no palestine in the ME.
Britan or the USA is never going to attack Israel, or bomb thier military bases, thats just crazy, to do so would go back on scores of years of acknowledged support for the people of Isreal.
Isreal has a geographical border which they have a right to defend- if I were the people living in Gaza, i'd be thinking abotu denoucning Hamas and doing it fast and pointing out the hamas bastards that brought this on Gaza.
If britan were being rocketed say by germany, would you just take it? Try to negotiate maybe? or Hey, how about just move to the furthest side of the island? Heck no you wouldn't, you'd fight for all your worth and with everything you had. Just like you did once before.
If the hamas never fired first, Israel would never need to attack.
Israel has admited in the past that they have taken land illegally.
Israel is no different to any other third world country who has built their land up from nothing.
It is not going to be a war if Israel attacks Hamas by land.. it is murder.
Yes, you are right in that if Britain came under attack from Germany, we would defend our country naturally. It would be completely different though as we are an Island and Germany is not part of Britain as Hamas is part of the ME.
I appreciate that Britain is never going to bomb Israel.... I's still like to see them attack out Israel's military bases and render them powerless as Hamas are.
Bush pledged 10 years of military aid for Israel and Bush said he would back an Israeli attack on Iran. That's another sore point with the US, Iran gaining nucleur power. The US would be condemned world wide for an all out attack on Iran so let the Jews do it for you eh? And just supply the funding and the means. America gets what it wants and so does Israel.
Israel needs to take a long hard look at the alliegence of America. Who funded Sadam against Iran? Who turned on Sadam when it didn't suit?
Israel is sitting on land that has traditionally been thiers for centuries upon centuries, the 1920-1948 sanctions gave them the right to posess it and now that they have it they are fighting for it saying never again will we be beat back inot submission and yer dang right they will fight for it after all they have been through, I know I would. Isreal has built up that land out of the desert and made it what it is today with hard work by god.
Of course its a blood bath remember its called WAR and people die in war.
If you google 'palestine' under maps you get one return and its Palestine Texas USA. There is no palestine in the ME.
Britan or the USA is never going to attack Israel, or bomb thier military bases, thats just crazy, to do so would go back on scores of years of acknowledged support for the people of Isreal.
Isreal has a geographical border which they have a right to defend- if I were the people living in Gaza, i'd be thinking abotu denoucning Hamas and doing it fast and pointing out the hamas bastards that brought this on Gaza.
If britan were being rocketed say by germany, would you just take it? Try to negotiate maybe? or Hey, how about just move to the furthest side of the island? Heck no you wouldn't, you'd fight for all your worth and with everything you had. Just like you did once before.
If the hamas never fired first, Israel would never need to attack.
Israel has admited in the past that they have taken land illegally.
Israel is no different to any other third world country who has built their land up from nothing.
It is not going to be a war if Israel attacks Hamas by land.. it is murder.
Yes, you are right in that if Britain came under attack from Germany, we would defend our country naturally. It would be completely different though as we are an Island and Germany is not part of Britain as Hamas is part of the ME.
I appreciate that Britain is never going to bomb Israel.... I's still like to see them attack out Israel's military bases and render them powerless as Hamas are.
Bush pledged 10 years of military aid for Israel and Bush said he would back an Israeli attack on Iran. That's another sore point with the US, Iran gaining nucleur power. The US would be condemned world wide for an all out attack on Iran so let the Jews do it for you eh? And just supply the funding and the means. America gets what it wants and so does Israel.
Israel needs to take a long hard look at the alliegence of America. Who funded Sadam against Iran? Who turned on Sadam when it didn't suit?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Israel bombs Gaza.
oscar;1096574 wrote: I agree Spot.
It reminds me of The Zulu's.
I'd also like to see no Israeli immune to prosecution within Britain.
For Jester and galbally. If Israel had their way and drove Hamas out of Gaza.... Then what?? Peace for ever more??? I don't think so!
I am not advocating the Israeli strategy Oscar, I am just outlining what I think the strategy is. There seems to be no solution to it to be honest, and I have no idea how to solve the crisis.
Like most neutral observers I believe that the Palestinian people have a right to their own homeland, and state; and I also believe that despite what happened in 1948, that Israel has a right to exist and have security. Neither side has those things at present and how they are achieved I have little idea.
Israel does need to stop building settlements in the West Bank, and remove the ones that are already there thats for certain, and Hamas need to somehow come to terms with the reality that Israel exists and they are not going to be able to destroy it. Neither side is listening at present, and the mutual hatred is so deep that its hard to see there being any resolution any time soon.
It reminds me of The Zulu's.
I'd also like to see no Israeli immune to prosecution within Britain.
For Jester and galbally. If Israel had their way and drove Hamas out of Gaza.... Then what?? Peace for ever more??? I don't think so!
I am not advocating the Israeli strategy Oscar, I am just outlining what I think the strategy is. There seems to be no solution to it to be honest, and I have no idea how to solve the crisis.
Like most neutral observers I believe that the Palestinian people have a right to their own homeland, and state; and I also believe that despite what happened in 1948, that Israel has a right to exist and have security. Neither side has those things at present and how they are achieved I have little idea.
Israel does need to stop building settlements in the West Bank, and remove the ones that are already there thats for certain, and Hamas need to somehow come to terms with the reality that Israel exists and they are not going to be able to destroy it. Neither side is listening at present, and the mutual hatred is so deep that its hard to see there being any resolution any time soon.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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Oscar Namechange
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Israel bombs Gaza.
Galbally;1096654 wrote: I am not advocating the Israeli strategy Oscar, I am just outlining what I think the strategy is. There seems to be no solution to it to be honest, and I have no idea how to solve the crisis.
Like most neutral observers I believe that the Palestinian people have a right to their own homeland, and state; and I also believe that despite what happened in 1948, that Israel has a right to exist and have security. Neither side has those things at present and how they are achieved I have little idea.
Israel does need to stop building settlements in the West Bank, and remove the ones that are already there thats for certain, and Hamas need to somehow come to terms with the reality that Israel exists and they are not going to be able to destroy it. Neither side is listening at present, and the mutual hatred is so deep that its hard to see there being any resolution any time soon.
Absolutely right they do. And yes your right that Israel needs it's own security, however they have an appalling record of going about securing it and i'm sure i'm not alone in being sick to death of the israeli ideal that they govern the ME.
this latest threat of land invasion on Hamas only shows the world once again of their warped policy's.
The solution is simple. Israel needs to understand that the Palestinian people have a right to their land. When they recognise that, there may be a chance.
I notice that as soon as Obama was elected, the first country to send out a warning to him was Israel again.
Like most neutral observers I believe that the Palestinian people have a right to their own homeland, and state; and I also believe that despite what happened in 1948, that Israel has a right to exist and have security. Neither side has those things at present and how they are achieved I have little idea.
Israel does need to stop building settlements in the West Bank, and remove the ones that are already there thats for certain, and Hamas need to somehow come to terms with the reality that Israel exists and they are not going to be able to destroy it. Neither side is listening at present, and the mutual hatred is so deep that its hard to see there being any resolution any time soon.
Absolutely right they do. And yes your right that Israel needs it's own security, however they have an appalling record of going about securing it and i'm sure i'm not alone in being sick to death of the israeli ideal that they govern the ME.
this latest threat of land invasion on Hamas only shows the world once again of their warped policy's.
The solution is simple. Israel needs to understand that the Palestinian people have a right to their land. When they recognise that, there may be a chance.
I notice that as soon as Obama was elected, the first country to send out a warning to him was Israel again.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Israel bombs Gaza.
Scrat;1096684 wrote: A big part of the problem is 2 words both used by Jester, philosophy and tradition.
Neither word is concrete, neither word is a home for people to live in, a tree that bears fruit or a cow that produces milk and meat. Tradition and philosophy hold no solutions. Hell, they're the problem.
Spot on again Scrat.
Tradition has no place in warfare.
Neither word is concrete, neither word is a home for people to live in, a tree that bears fruit or a cow that produces milk and meat. Tradition and philosophy hold no solutions. Hell, they're the problem.
Spot on again Scrat.
Tradition has no place in warfare.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Israel bombs Gaza.
What the Israelis are doing in Gaza is a simple rerun of what they learned from their paymasters. This is Fallujah 2.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Peter Lake
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Israel bombs Gaza.
If the Palestinian people do not have the right to a country of their own because they have never had a state, why should the people of Salvador, Guatemala, Congo, Algeria etc have the right to self determination?
It's well remembered that none of these country's had a state prior to gaining independence, nor a language or culture that set them apart from neighbouring states.
If indeed, it were true that the Palestinian people had no state, culture or language of their own, does it give Israel the right to confiscate their homes, land and businesses? Or, to block their return to their homes and family's?
To nullify their citizenship in the country of their birth is akin to the Nazi idealology
against the Jews.
Palestinian people have been deemed to have no political rights or voice in the Middle East arena. Any rights they do have are deemed to be confined to their place of residence.
The right which the Arabs in Palestine have, is the right due to any citizen of any country --- because they live there and not because they are Arabs.
The Arab inhabititants of Palestine should enjoy all rights of citizens and all political rights, not only as individuals, but as a national community ---- Just the same as the Jews enjoy now.
It's well remembered that none of these country's had a state prior to gaining independence, nor a language or culture that set them apart from neighbouring states.
If indeed, it were true that the Palestinian people had no state, culture or language of their own, does it give Israel the right to confiscate their homes, land and businesses? Or, to block their return to their homes and family's?
To nullify their citizenship in the country of their birth is akin to the Nazi idealology
against the Jews.
Palestinian people have been deemed to have no political rights or voice in the Middle East arena. Any rights they do have are deemed to be confined to their place of residence.
The right which the Arabs in Palestine have, is the right due to any citizen of any country --- because they live there and not because they are Arabs.
The Arab inhabititants of Palestine should enjoy all rights of citizens and all political rights, not only as individuals, but as a national community ---- Just the same as the Jews enjoy now.
Israel bombs Gaza.
It is unfortunate that current Israeli foreign policy is reminiscent of that of Nazi Germany. Before you call this BS, just look at the similarities:- the monitoring of checkpoints, the production of identity cards, the continual marshalling from place to place - the intent it seems to ensure insecurity of domicile for the Palestinians. The occupied territories themselves often have the feel of a liminal ghost-like state within international law. Much like the inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto must have felt like when they were being coralled and herded like cattle.
Nazi Germany was not allowed to exist. Why should Nazi Israel be condoned?
Nazi Germany was not allowed to exist. Why should Nazi Israel be condoned?
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Israel bombs Gaza.
[QUOTE=Chookie;1096764]It is unfortunate that current Israeli foreign policy is reminiscent of that of Nazi Germany. Before you call this BS, just look at the similarities:- the monitoring of checkpoints, the production of identity cards, the continual marshalling from place to place - the intent it seems to ensure insecurity of domicile for the Palestinians. The occupied territories themselves often have the feel of a liminal ghost-like state within international law. Much like the inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto must have felt like when they were being coralled and herded like cattle.
Nazi Germany was not allowed to exist. Why should Nazi Israel be condoned?[/QUOTE]
Because America lets it, funds it and backs it's terrorism.
Nazi Germany was not allowed to exist. Why should Nazi Israel be condoned?[/QUOTE]
Because America lets it, funds it and backs it's terrorism.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Israel bombs Gaza.
Scrat;1096767 wrote: It's a philosophical tradition.
:yh_rotfl
Besides, it'd be rude not to :yh_rotfl
:yh_rotfl
Besides, it'd be rude not to :yh_rotfl
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Israel bombs Gaza.
Jester;1096772 wrote: Nope, but so long as there was no rockets flying into thier terriritory it would be much harder to justify invading gaza, or syria, or jordan or Iran for that matter.
Hamas gave them the excuse they need if you want to look at it that way, Hamas gave them the international right to pursue them across borders (even illegally held borders).
The principle of proportianlity is over as far as Israel is concerned. And I don't blame them one bit. NONE of us would stand for another country lobbing rockets into sachool children, we'd stop it and do anything necessary to do so.
That's my main arguement in all of this Jester... Illegally held borders.
What next? Mexico shifts it's borders into the US illegally?
Hamas gave them the excuse they need if you want to look at it that way, Hamas gave them the international right to pursue them across borders (even illegally held borders).
The principle of proportianlity is over as far as Israel is concerned. And I don't blame them one bit. NONE of us would stand for another country lobbing rockets into sachool children, we'd stop it and do anything necessary to do so.
That's my main arguement in all of this Jester... Illegally held borders.
What next? Mexico shifts it's borders into the US illegally?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Israel bombs Gaza.
Jester;1096774 wrote: Any and all Hamas deserve nothing but death, they are sicko terrorists that thrive on TARGETING innocent civilians.
If I were Isarael I'd take help form whoever I could garner help from.
I am absolutly proud as an American to give my full support to Israel in this matter. They need to occupy, control, police and kill any one with a gun in Gaza.
Americans took exactly the same position over apartheid South Africa and Nelson Mandela's African National Congress once as well. Israel will end up in exactly the same outcome and people will wince when they remember the support that was given, just like they do now about past errors of judgement. There's not much to choose between the Boers and the Zionists.
If I were Isarael I'd take help form whoever I could garner help from.
I am absolutly proud as an American to give my full support to Israel in this matter. They need to occupy, control, police and kill any one with a gun in Gaza.
Americans took exactly the same position over apartheid South Africa and Nelson Mandela's African National Congress once as well. Israel will end up in exactly the same outcome and people will wince when they remember the support that was given, just like they do now about past errors of judgement. There's not much to choose between the Boers and the Zionists.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Israel bombs Gaza.
Jester;1096790 wrote: All of the land up to Jordans current borders belongs to Israel, who they let live there is up to them.
If mexico tries it we'd defend our borders.
I belive that if the inhabitants of said area behaved Israel would allow them to eventually assimilate, but they elected Hamas to rule them, and now they are paying the price.
Hey, lets bring this down a notch eh? We elected GW and we've been given grief form it sense, are you telling me we dont deserve the anti-american sentiment around the world because of who we elected? Now we elected a pro socialist president (Ilegally I might add but thats another thread) And ya'll are holding out hope he denounces Isarael as soon as he takes office!
The palistinians are getting the horrible consequence of the choice they made- bet they wish they never let hamas speak for them now eh?
Scrat:
Now, lest this 'zionist' attitude gets attached to me let me tell you why I side with Israel. I do not belive that Israel- defined as that nation occupying the area known today as 'Israel' proper exists as the true nation mentioned in so many biblical texts. That nation of Israel which will certainly and surely occupy every stretch of ground across the entire middle east will not occur until after the re-creation of the world. I am not a zionist under the terms you used earlier. I just wanted to make that clear.
I'm a 'sovorienist' and Israel has a right to do whatever they think is necessary to secure thier safety period. And to do it as harshly as necessary to any military or terrorist target that stand in thier way up to and including attacking the United States. (then my alligience will change of course)...
It's not anti-Americanism, it's a critism of Bush striking a 10 year deal for military aid for Israel.
IMHO i think Obama will come to a big fat nothing once he's in the Oval Office. he showed weakness when Russia went into Georgia and i predict he will be as equally as weak in the ME conflicts. This is going to be his big test in the global foriegn affairs arena. He'll probably just let Bush take the can.
If Israel were left to there own military capabilities, there would be a lot less blood shed.
As i said earlier, Israel needs to look to America's alliegence. I remember Sadam striking similar deals.
If mexico tries it we'd defend our borders.
I belive that if the inhabitants of said area behaved Israel would allow them to eventually assimilate, but they elected Hamas to rule them, and now they are paying the price.
Hey, lets bring this down a notch eh? We elected GW and we've been given grief form it sense, are you telling me we dont deserve the anti-american sentiment around the world because of who we elected? Now we elected a pro socialist president (Ilegally I might add but thats another thread) And ya'll are holding out hope he denounces Isarael as soon as he takes office!
The palistinians are getting the horrible consequence of the choice they made- bet they wish they never let hamas speak for them now eh?
Scrat:
Now, lest this 'zionist' attitude gets attached to me let me tell you why I side with Israel. I do not belive that Israel- defined as that nation occupying the area known today as 'Israel' proper exists as the true nation mentioned in so many biblical texts. That nation of Israel which will certainly and surely occupy every stretch of ground across the entire middle east will not occur until after the re-creation of the world. I am not a zionist under the terms you used earlier. I just wanted to make that clear.
I'm a 'sovorienist' and Israel has a right to do whatever they think is necessary to secure thier safety period. And to do it as harshly as necessary to any military or terrorist target that stand in thier way up to and including attacking the United States. (then my alligience will change of course)...
It's not anti-Americanism, it's a critism of Bush striking a 10 year deal for military aid for Israel.
IMHO i think Obama will come to a big fat nothing once he's in the Oval Office. he showed weakness when Russia went into Georgia and i predict he will be as equally as weak in the ME conflicts. This is going to be his big test in the global foriegn affairs arena. He'll probably just let Bush take the can.
If Israel were left to there own military capabilities, there would be a lot less blood shed.
As i said earlier, Israel needs to look to America's alliegence. I remember Sadam striking similar deals.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Israel bombs Gaza.
Jester;1096790 wrote: I'm a 'sovorienist' and Israel has a right to do whatever they think is necessary to secure thier safety period. And to do it as harshly as necessary to any military or terrorist target that stand in thier way up to and including attacking the United States. (then my alligience will change of course)...
I'd agree with you entirely. What they can't do is continue to have laws that discriminate between Jews and non-Jews.
I'd agree with you entirely. What they can't do is continue to have laws that discriminate between Jews and non-Jews.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Israel bombs Gaza.
Jester;1096808 wrote: You greatly under estimate the will of the Israeli people.
I think the will of Hamas is greatly under-estimated.
I just heard on the news that Hamas have fired more rockets into Southern Israel.
I think the will of Hamas is greatly under-estimated.
I just heard on the news that Hamas have fired more rockets into Southern Israel.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Israel bombs Gaza.
Jester;1096808 wrote: You greatly under estimate the will of the Israeli people.
And you, in turn, underestimate the will of the Palestinians.
No Nation or People will tamely accept the wishes, demands or orders of another. Aggression and intolerance only begets justified resistance and causes even more hatred and intolerance.
And you, in turn, underestimate the will of the Palestinians.
No Nation or People will tamely accept the wishes, demands or orders of another. Aggression and intolerance only begets justified resistance and causes even more hatred and intolerance.
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Israel bombs Gaza.
Jester;1096847 wrote: I very seldom if ever have underestimated the enemy. And I realize this is but one battle of many to come and that this conflict will be ongoing.
They result of accepting agression while bending over and exposing yer ass to the enemy never stopped the agressive violence. It is not hatred to defend yourself againtt an attacker.
Israel can't win either way if they are too harsh they will be condemned, if they turn cheek they will be systemaically attacked till there is nothign left, they certainly wont win in the court of public opinion anyway- so they might as well beat the hell out of them and have some level of security for a while.
You are right in many ways my little gunslinger but maybe hamas latest rocket attack into Southern Israel today is a political move more than aggression as they know that their rockets bring little damage. Hamas maybe trying to force the west into a showdown with israel and withdraw support. interesting that Britain has condemned Israel and the US still backs them.
They result of accepting agression while bending over and exposing yer ass to the enemy never stopped the agressive violence. It is not hatred to defend yourself againtt an attacker.
Israel can't win either way if they are too harsh they will be condemned, if they turn cheek they will be systemaically attacked till there is nothign left, they certainly wont win in the court of public opinion anyway- so they might as well beat the hell out of them and have some level of security for a while.
You are right in many ways my little gunslinger but maybe hamas latest rocket attack into Southern Israel today is a political move more than aggression as they know that their rockets bring little damage. Hamas maybe trying to force the west into a showdown with israel and withdraw support. interesting that Britain has condemned Israel and the US still backs them.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Israel bombs Gaza.
You know what? This has been going on for so many years that I am getting sick of it. I say let the feckers fight it out, everyone back off and let the last man standing be the winner. No intervention, no sanctions, no alliances, let their hatred consume themselves until they are all dust.
Then we can turn all into one big theme park.
Then we can turn all into one big theme park.