germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

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jimbo;1083778 wrote: oscar sort this out :wah::wah:







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      From Times Online

      December 11, 2008



      Brown hits back at German criticism of his economic rescue plan ahead of summit







      Philip Webster, Political Editor, and David Byers



      div#related-article-links p a, div#related-article-links p a:visited {color:#06c;}Analysis: so is he right? | Profile: Peer Steinbrück | He's Merkel in disguise - Rosemary Righter

      Gordon Brown was this morning forced into a withering dismissal of the German Finance Minister, who described the Prime Minister's economic policies as "depressing" and "crass" ahead of the European summit today.

      Mr Brown said that the attack from Peer Steinbrück was a "matter of internal German politics" — quite a riposte in the normally cautious language of diplomacy.

      Mr Steinbrück's intervention in the affairs of another member state took No 10 and No 11 by surprise last night. In an interview with Newsweek magazine, he derided the headline 2.5 per cent cut in VAT announced by Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, in the Pre-Budget Report, and said that a generation of taxpayers would be saddled with the debt.

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      Analysis: Is Peer Steinbruck right?




      Profile: Peer Steinbrück







      As well as emphasising the divide within Europe — and in Germany — over Mr Brown's policies, the attack gave an open goal to British opposition parties, both of whom used it to attack the Government's bailout.

      In the interview, Mr Steinbrück described the Government’s switch to a "crass Keynesianism" to try to spend its way out of the economic crisis after years of preaching fiscal rectitude as "breathtaking".

      On the VAT cut, he added: "Our British friends are now cutting their value-added tax. We have no idea how much of that stores will pass on to customers. Are you really going to buy a DVD player because it now costs £39.10 instead of £39.90?

      "All this will do is raise Britain’s debt to a level that will take a whole generation to work off.

      "The same people who would never touch deficit spending are now tossing around billions. The switch from decades of supply-side politics all the way to a crass Keynesianism is breathtaking."

      Ministers see his outburst as part of a struggle going on within the German Government between a cautious faction led by Mr Steinbrück and another group that favours an big injection of public cash into the economy.

      Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, is believed by British diplomats to be moving towards the French and British positions of backing a fiscal stimulus. The added complication is that Britain's decision to cut VAT was also seen as embarrassing for Berlin, and Mr Steinbrück, who raised the tax in his country recently.

      The intervention was seized on by the Tories and Liberal Democrats as public proof that Mr Brown's claims that everyone agreed with him did not really stand up.

      George Osborne, the Shadow Chancellor, said that it "totally demolished" Mr Brown’s claim that "only the Conservatives oppose his expensive and ineffective VAT measures".

      Mocking a slip of the tongue by the Prime Minister in the Commons yesterday, he said: "On the day he claimed to be saving the world, the world answered back."

      Vincent Cable, the Liberal Democrat's Treasury spokesman, said that the criticism came about as a result of Mr Brown's previous "lecturing" of the Germans. "The more substantial point is that Steinbrück and his colleagues are really pretty fed up about being lectured by Gordon Brown on how to run their economy," he said.

      "The German Social Democrats have long being telling the British that the City of London and the sort of greed and irresponsibility that took place in the financial market was potentially very unstable. Gordon Brown took the credit and lectured the Germans and they are getting their own back in a serious way."

      Mr Brown, who will head to Brussels later today, reiterated that "every country around the world" agreed with him.

      He told LBC Radio in London: "Actually, the German Government is investing more. They have just announced a fiscal expansion so that they can invest in public works and helping their banks and doing these sorts of things.

      "I do not really want to get involved in what is clearly internal German politics here, because they have a coalition in Germany with different political parties.

      "The important thing is that almost every country around the world is doing what we have been doing." Not taking such actions would mean "failing in the role of Government", he said.

      Mr Steinbrück's interview was a highly unusual intervention by a minister being openly critical of the internal policies of an ally. It promises to cause some interesting exchanges today when Mrs Merkel meets Mr Sarkozy, Mr Brown and others in Brussels.


      First of all, how very typical of the germans to bring up 'Keynesianism'.

      Having read this pile of bollocks, any one with a brain will know that Brown of course has his critics and these are called 'Tory votors, many who write for newspapers and who want a return to pre-Gordon Brown when the money men were the only people a government cared about.

      The entire reason our country got into a mess in the first place is down to two types of people. One, the fat bank chiefs and money men that Gordon Brown has sacked and two, the greedy British consumer living totally beyond their means on the 'buy now pay later' promise. Only, that's what it was.. a promise.. and a promise that a large percentage of greedy selfish bastards in this country have gone back on when they have gone snivelling to the courts to declare them bankrupt because they have over spent without a hope in hell of paying it back and now want the government to pick their bill up at the cost of decent tax payers who do live within their means.

      Even if the government had called a general election when Brown ousted Blair and the Tory's had taken over, make absolutely no mistake, there would be no fairy tale ending and we'd still be in this position exactly the same as conservative governments in other EU countrie's are now.

      The situation we have here is Germany disagreeing with the Brussels proposals to inject £200 billion into the economy, spear-headed by Brown and that's why they are attacking him and not the facist in Italy.

      If you look at the recovery plan that Germany wants to put in place instead, it is just more of the same to keep the bank cheifs and money men in their jobs. Brown's actions against our money men go against the capitalistic ideals of the german government.

      Their proposal is merely to divert the £200 billion proposed by brown back into the banks and not the economy as Brown has down here by slashing bank interest rates and VAT.

      All the German's can come up with to attack Brown's proposals is the pathetic example of VAT savings which is only a fraction to what he has done for this country by getting rid of the money men, slashing interest rates, slashing fuel prices, slashing food prices, injecting millions of £'s into creating new jobs and infrastructure of transport, health service and education that will in turn create more jobs, creating more revenue for this country to repay the fiscal stimulation.

      Yes, i must admit, the 2.5% reduction may seem futile if your buying a sweater but compare it to buying a new german car??? That's why the Germans don't like the Brown VAT cut.. they will have to cut the price off their over-rated cars. The savings of VAT on a car is equivilent to your road tax for two years.

      Let's look at the act that brown passed this week? All immigrants into our country will have to work for at least 2 yrs before getting any benifits and live here for 10 yrs before they can claim a free council house. Isn't that exactly what you have been crying out for for decades??

      The proposals this week by Brown to educate the likes of karen matthews and force them into employment instead of the likes of you and i, the taxpayer, paying for them to spend their live's on benifit bleeding this country dry??? Is that not something else this country has been crying out for for years??

      Labour have gained approx 27% in the polls in just the last few months and the Tory's are sunk. Of course they will come out and support this statement from germany..They want exactly the same as they do.. a return of power to the money men and not the people.

      The Tory's have absolutely nothing to offer except cutbacks in health, transport and education. How many jobs do you think would be lost due to that??

      Anyone who critises Browns borrowing and has a mortgage is a hypocrite. What were you doing when you bought your house?? You were borrowing a massive amount of money far beyond your wage income with extortionate interest rates put there by a conservative government, on the hope that you would live long enough to pay it back and have employment long enough to pay it back. That's exactly what Brown has done.At least for those of you who are now in trouble with your mortgages, Gordon Brown is going to suspend all interst for two years for you. Would you like jam on it as well?

      Finally, i have only one thing to say to Germany.

      TWO WORLD WARS

      AND ONE WORLD CUP

      :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Galbally
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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by Galbally »

I don't think the German finance minister was being anti-British, he has no record of that, and its extremely unusual for any EU political leader to openly criticize one from another EU country in this way, which says more about the pressure all EU countries are under at present than any real animosity.

I think that at the moment, there is a very serious debate going on within the entire EU about how on earth are we all collectively going to deal with this crisis. The Germans are obviously nervous about the idea of anyone printing money to get out of a financial mess, (which if you know anything about the history of Weimar Germany would be obvious), and I actually think the man is making a lot of sense; and he is in general agreement with the Tories, which would negate this just being an attack on "Britain" but more an attack on a specific British Government policy.

I would say its a little undiplomatic, and of course the British Government have the right to rebut the arguments put forth by the German finance minister robustly, (which is precisely what they have done).

But I think you should pay a little heed to what this man is saying then just revert to the slogans of football hooligans as a rebuttal of what are very serious points being made.

Everyone is Europe is nervous at the moment about the stability of Sterling, if it collapses its not just a UK problem, its a problem for all of us, as the UK is a very significant part of the overall European economy and a run on Sterling has implications for everyone in the EU. A badly mauled Sterling is bad for everyone, and we all have a vested interest in making sure that Europe as a whole recovers as quickly, but sustainably, as possible, as we are all interlinked economically and politically.

It may of course turn out that the Germans are being overcautious and Gordon Brown's approach is the right one, but I personally would tend to agree with the German politican rather than the Labour Party at the moment on this issue. I actually hope I am wrong and I mean that sincerely.
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gmc
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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by gmc »

posted by oscar

Yes, i must admit, the 2.5% reduction may seem futile if your buying a sweater but compare it to buying a new german car??? That's why the Germans don't like the Brown VAT cut.. they will have to cut the price off their over-rated cars. The savings of VAT on a car is equivilent to your road tax for two years.


Too bad gordie boy can't get the banks to actually lend all the money he's given them or get credit card companies and car finance companies to cut their rates. Nodody is buying cars because

a) they can't get finance any more

B) they are about to lose their jobs

posted by oscar

The entire reason our country got into a mess in the first place is down to two types of people. One, the fat bank chiefs and money men that Gordon Brown has sacked and two, the greedy British consumer living totally beyond their means on the 'buy now pay later' promise. Only, that's what it was.. a promise.. and a promise that a large percentage of greedy selfish bastards in this country have gone back on when they have gone snivelling to the courts to declare them bankrupt because they have over spent without a hope in hell of paying it back and now want the government to pick their bill up at the cost of decent tax payers who do live within their means.


Don't forget that tosspot of a chancellor that did nothing to regulate those same chancers in the financial sector despite having the means to do so.

posted by oscar

What were you doing when you bought your house?? You were borrowing a massive amount of money far beyond your wage income with extortionate interest rates put there by a conservative government, on the hope that you would live long enough to pay it back and have employment long enough to pay it back. That's exactly what Brown has done.At least for those of you who are now in trouble with your mortgages, Gordon Brown is going to suspend all interst for two years for you. Would you like jam on it as well?


Which ******** of a chancellor decided that letting lenders lend up to 125% of a properties value was a sensible idea? Which ******** of a chancellor allowed the lenders to use higher multiples and encouraged he growth of the sub prime market in this country? You couldn't borrow higher income multiples till labour came along. We didn't have to do what america did you know.

What have you been doing for the last ten years that you are still daft enough to think tony blair and gordon brwon are so wonderful?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Galbally;1083856 wrote: I don't think the German finance minister was being anti-British, he has no record of that, and its extremely unusual for any EU political leader to openly criticize one from another EU country in this way, which says more about the pressure all EU countries are under at present than any real animosity.

I think that at the moment, there is a very serious debate going on within the entire EU about how on earth are we all collectively going to deal with this crisis. The Germans are obviously nervous about the idea of anyone printing money to get out of a financial mess, (which if you know anything about the history of Weimar Germany would be obvious), and I actually think the man is making a lot of sense; and he is in general agreement with the Tories, which would negate this just being an attack on "Britain" but more an attack on a specific British Government policy.

I would say its a little undiplomatic, and of course the British Government have the right to rebut the arguments put forth by the German finance minister robustly, (which is precisely what they have done).

But I think you should pay a little heed to what this man is saying then just revert to the slogans of football hooligans as a rebuttal of what are very serious points being made.

Everyone is Europe is nervous at the moment about the stability of Sterling, if it collapses its not just a UK problem, its a problem for all of us, as the UK is a very significant part of the overall European economy and a run on Sterling has implications for everyone in the EU. A badly mauled Sterling is bad for everyone, and we all have a vested interest in making sure that Europe as a whole recovers as quickly, but sustainably, as possible, as we are all interlinked economically and politically.

It may of course turn out that the Germans are being overcautious and Gordon Brown's approach is the right one, but I personally would tend to agree with the German politican rather than the Labour Party at the moment on this issue. I actually hope I am wrong and I mean that sincerely.


Say's the man who's country has Brussels holding the proverbial gun to their heads to force them into a 2nd referendum.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

gmc;1083872 wrote:



What have you been doing for the last ten years that you are still daft enough to think tony blair and gordon brwon are so wonderful?


Who's brwon?? is he welsh??

You know from my posts on other threads exactly what i think of Tony Blair.

The reson, yes i do, think Brown is so wonderful, is because no-one including galbally can offer any constructive alternative policy to the present economic climate than Brwon has done.

Please tell me.. If Brown is so wrong.. What alternative would you put in place to recover economy without lambasting Brown for the past ten years as Chacellor under Blair??

I suspect that you can not offer an alternative recovery plan because you know that there is not one other than Tory Tosser cut backs within the countrie's infrastructure.





Besides, did you see how sexy Gordon brown looked in that lovely blue suit as he arrived for talks today?? And what a lovely smile he has??
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oscar;1083838 wrote: Having read this pile of bollocks, any one with a brain will know that Brown of course has his critics and these are called 'Tory votors, many who write for newspapers and who want a return to pre-Gordon Brown when the money men were the only people a government cared about.


Oh dear Oscar, you really are deluded aren't you?

Gordon the Gopher has many critics, most of whom are not in fact Tory voters. Damn near everyone in Scotland is justifiably critical of the Gopher and his Darling.



ps: For your information Tories are a protected species in Scotland (we keep them in Zoos).
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Chookie;1083894 wrote: Oh dear Oscar, you really are deluded aren't you?

Gordon the Gopher has many critics, most of whom are not in fact Tory voters. Damn near everyone in Scotland is justifiably critical of the Gopher and his Darling.



ps: For your information Tories are a protected species in Scotland (we keep them in Zoos).


That's why you have repeated failure in obtaining an Independent scotland is it??:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Who are you?? gmc's wife??

I agree with you on the Tory's though, good place for them but you only need one cage as they face extinction.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Chookie;1083894 wrote: Oh dear Oscar, you really are deluded aren't you?

Gordon the Gopher has many critics, most of whom are not in fact Tory voters. Damn near everyone in Scotland is justifiably critical of the Gopher and his Darling.



ps: For your information Tories are a protected species in Scotland (we keep them in Zoos).


Another critic of Brown who has bugger all to offer by way of an alternative solution to maintain the infrastructure and economy.
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Post by Galbally »

oscar;1083881 wrote: Say's the man who's country has Brussels holding the proverbial gun to their heads to force them into a 2nd referendum.


I don't see any guns anywhere, proverbial or otherwise O
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In other words I don't viscerally see the EU as a threat, we are in the EU, like you, not confronted by it. Its a perspective thing.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Galbally;1083937 wrote: In other words I don't viscerally see the EU as a threat, we are in the EU, like you, not confronted by it. Its a perspective thing.


According to Lisbon, your not towing the line though are you?

You want the financial help to get your economy out of the shyte when you voted no to Brussels and now your worried about being asked to hold the 2nd referendum.
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oscar;1084021 wrote: According to Lisbon, your not towing the line though are you?

You want the financial help to get your economy out of the shyte when you voted no to Brussels and now your worried about being asked to hold the 2nd referendum.


Again, your using the language of EU "domination" no one is making us "tow the line" we make the rules up as well as everyone else, we set the line for ourselves. Again, that's just British tabloid talk about the EU, which it posits as something akin to the USSR meets a gay butchers convention, run by Germans (all of which is total nonsense cooked up in the mind of right wing tory nutters and Rupert Murdoch).

I voted Yes to Lisbon, and I will happily do so in the second referendum. The first referendum was held before the real credit and economic crisis hit Ireland, and the reasons 51 percent of people voted no was not clear in any way.

I would say scaremongering about abortion, neutrality, tax harmonization, and a whole raft of more daft stuff got mixed up in it, domestic politics and an unpopular government played a part, and one Mr Declan Ganley whom I distrust with a passion did a master class in rabble rousing with a plummy accent and snake oil salesmanship.

You'll hear more about him in Future I am sure.

However the main reason was that its pointless having referenda about 216 page technical documents written in legalistic jargon. Which is why it should never have been a referendum, it was only necessary because of court decision made in 1996 about the technical passing of European Legislation in Ireland (which I assume could be considered at least as "undemocratic" as no one elects high court judges do they?).

I'll put it this way. The European Union is like a complicated political machine that comprises 27 member states, legal structures, political systems, languages, and everything else that makes up this wonderful continent we all call home.

The EU is an intergovernmental system, which means that the basis of the democracy of the EU is the democratic system of each National Parliament, not the EU itself, which is not a state. Its the member states that want it that way, because Europeans identify with their nations more than their shared civilization.

The Lisbon treaty is an instruction manual for how to make this complicated thing work, its not a simple declaration of a constitution for a European State. Which is why this whole rubbish about "democratic deficits" is mendacious.

I would never have held a referendum on it in the first place, as its essentially impossible to have a simple yes or no answer to all of the complicated issues arising from it. Thats what parliaments are for, to scrutinize this stuff and decide for us. We elect them to do it.

In short, Irish people voted no because they didn't understand what they were voting for, and they were frightened into it by scare tactics by every crank organization in the country, egged on by the British gutter press, which now pollutes our news stands as well (unfortunately).

Its my own belief that as long as the next campaign is run properly and the real agenda of the No campaign is exposed for what it is, which is a bunch of cranks who want us out of the EU, nationalists who want the same, quasi-facists, and the agents of right wing British and US interests (who have never had our interests at heart), the Irish people will vote a resounding YES, and we can get on with making sure that the destiny of 500 million Europeans (including our British cousins) is not decided in Washington, Bejing, or Moscow anymore.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Galbally;1084120 wrote: Again, your using the language of EU "domination" no one is making us "tow the line" we make the rules up as well as everyone else, we set the line for ourselves. Again, that's just British tabloid talk about the EU, which it posits as something akin to the USSR meets a gay butchers convention, run by Germans (all of which is total nonsense cooked up in the mind of right wing tory nutters and Rupert Murdoch).

I voted Yes to Lisbon, and I will happily do so in the second referendum. The first referendum was held before the real credit and economic crisis hit Ireland, and the reasons 51 percent of people voted no was not clear in any way.

I would say scaremongering about abortion, neutrality, tax harmonization, and a whole raft of more daft stuff got mixed up in it, domestic politics and an unpopular government played a part, and one Mr Declan Ganley whom I distrust with a passion did a master class in rabble rousing with a plummy accent and snake oil salesmanship.

You'll hear more about him in Future I am sure.

However the main reason was that its pointless having referenda about 216 page technical documents written in legalistic jargon. Which is why it should never have been a referendum, it was only necessary because of court decision made in 1996 about the technical passing of European Legislation in Ireland (which I assume could be considered at least as "undemocratic" as no one elects high court judges do they?).

I'll put it this way. The European Union is like a complicated political machine that comprises 27 member states, legal structures, political systems, languages, and everything else that makes up this wonderful continent we all call home.

The EU is an intergovernmental system, which means that the basis of the democracy of the EU is the democratic system of each National Parliament, not the EU itself, which is not a state. Its the member states that want it that way, because Europeans identify with their nations more than their shared civilization.

The Lisbon treaty is an instruction manual for how to make this complicated thing work, its not a simple declaration of a constitution for a European State. Which is why this whole rubbish about "democratic deficits" is mendacious.

I would never have held a referendum on it in the first place, as its essentially impossible to have a simple yes or no answer to all of the complicated issues arising from it. Thats what parliaments are for, to scrutinize this stuff and decide for us. We elect them to do it.

In short, Irish people voted no because they didn't understand what they were voting for, and they were frightened into it by scare tactics by every crank organization in the country, egged on by the British gutter press, which now pollutes our news stands as well (unfortunately).

Its my own belief that as long as the next campaign is run properly and the real agenda of the No campaign is exposed for what it is, which is a bunch of cranks who want us out of the EU, nationalists who want the same, quasi-facists, and the agents of right wing British and US interests (who have never had our interests at heart), the Irish people will vote a resounding YES, and we can get on with making sure that the destiny of 500 million Europeans (including our British cousins) is not decided in Washington, Bejing, or Moscow anymore.


Obviously with the 1st referendum at 51%, my theory, that most did not understand the issue's and did not bother voting and i agree, it got very messy with abortion laws etc etc.

I don't see a future for Ireland outside of Brussels so if the Irish would vote a YES, why is Lisbon claiming your country is refusing the 2nd referendum?
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Post by Galbally »

oscar;1084146 wrote: Obviously with the 1st referendum at 51%, my theory, that most did not understand the issue's and did not bother voting and i agree, it got very messy with abortion laws etc etc.

I don't see a future for Ireland outside of Brussels so if the Irish would vote a YES, why is Lisbon claiming your country is refusing the 2nd referendum?


But we are having a second referendum. Its going to be held in October 2009



I will be voting yes, and I hope a majority of other Irish people do so to.

Whether they will or not is another question, but I hope they do. :-6
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



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gmc
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Post by gmc »

posted by galbally

Its my own belief that as long as the next campaign is run properly and the real agenda of the No campaign is exposed for what it is, which is a bunch of cranks who want us out of the EU, nationalists who want the same, quasi-facists, and the agents of right wing British and US interests (who have never had our interests at heart), the Irish people will vote a resounding YES, and we can get on with making sure that the destiny of 500 million Europeans (including our British cousins) is not decided in Washington, Bejing, or Moscow anymore.


Sadly oscar seems to rely on the daily mail for a lot of her info. It's one of the more anti-eu quasi fascist xenophobic papers we have.

posted by oscar

That's why you have repeated failure in obtaining an Independent scotland is it??

Who are you?? gmc's wife??

I agree with you on the Tory's though, good place for them but you only need one cage as they face extinction.


Gordon brown is probably making sure scotland goes for independence. The SNP don't really need to do anything labour are making their case for them.

Like most scots I am ambivalent about it-I actually voted no in that bastardised referendum we had back in the seventies, now I would seriously consider voting yes. Labour made the mistake of saying they would never have a referendum but changed their tune when they got gubbed at the last scottish elections. Telling us we can't have a referendum is the one sure way to make sure we start demanding one. Alex salmond plays a canny game.

Scots detest the tories more than they detest new labour all that was needed was to break the back of the labour mafia and that happened with proportional representation. We could do with that throughout the UK them maybe our politicians would take heed of those who vote for them. The next election will be interesting.

If Gordon Brown loses his seat will you stop reading the daily mail?

Go back to your roots.

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posted by oscar

Another critic of Brown who has bugger all to offer by way of an alternative solution to maintain the infrastructure and economy.




It's so buggered up there is nothing left to maintain, all they are doing is bailing out a colander while pretending the holes aren't really there.
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Chookie
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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by Chookie »

oscar;1083914 wrote: Who are you?? gmc's wife??


That is a foul slander. Chookie skelps Oscar in thr face with a gauntlet.

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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Galbally;1083856 wrote:

I think that at the moment, there is a very serious debate going on within the entire EU about how on earth are we all collectively going to deal with this crisis. The Germans are obviously nervous about the idea of anyone printing money to get out of a financial mess, (which if you know anything about the history of Weimar Germany would be obvious), and I actually think the man is making a lot of sense; and he is in general agreement with the Tories, which would negate this just being an attack on "Britain" but more an attack on a specific British Government policy.

I would say its a little undiplomatic, and of course the British Government have the right to rebut the arguments put forth by the German finance minister robustly, (which is precisely what they have done).

But I think you should pay a little heed to what this man is saying then just revert to the slogans of football hooligans as a rebuttal of what are very serious points being made.

Everyone is Europe is nervous at the moment about the stability of Sterling, if it collapses its not just a UK problem, its a problem for all of us, as the UK is a very significant part of the overall European economy and a run on Sterling has implications for everyone in the EU. A badly mauled Sterling is bad for everyone, and we all have a vested interest in making sure that Europe as a whole recovers as quickly, but sustainably, as possible, as we are all interlinked economically and politically.

It may of course turn out that the Germans are being overcautious and Gordon Brown's approach is the right one, but I personally would tend to agree with the German politican rather than the Labour Party at the moment on this issue. I actually hope I am wrong and I mean that sincerely.


Pay heed??

Germany have been critisized right across Europe because it will not cut taxes and boost public spending to support the economy. Their fiscal stimulus is approx £10 billion or 0.5 % of GDP. The proposals to increase this to 1.3 % of GDP make it more than Britain.

Brown's fiscal stimulus including the 2.5% VAT cut amount to 1 % of GDP.

Germany's un-employment rate is 7.1%

In september Britain's unemployment rate was 5.8%

Even if you take the doom and gloom merchants out-look, British unemployment figures by 2010 would be around 8.2%. That's IF predictions are correct.

Germany's public debt has been one of the highest in decades.. It stands at an astonishing rate of 65% of GDP or £1.1 Trillion. This is the only reason Germany critises Brown's borrowing, they don't want to stand any extra burden.

Compared to other EU countries, Brown borrowed less during his time as Chancellor. At present we stand at only £616 billion gross debt. It is set to rise, granted, but if it did not, more jobs and small bussines would be lost.

Germany's public spending was at 43.8% of GDP last year.

Britain was 44.4 % of GDP last year. Given Germany's greater export market, the difference is significant.

Germany's tax rate is almost the same as Britain. Germany's income tax is 44pc with top levels and Britain 45pc.

Germany has enjoyed lower interest rates than Britain but only until recently. The European Central bank's main rate is 2.5%. They do not want to lower them to keep the money men happy.

Britain currently stands at 2% with further cuts expected.

Take heed from Germany?? Bollocks.. I'd rather take safety lessons from 'Abu Hamza'.
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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by Peter Lake »

I don't like to get drawn into the Labour bashing on here for my own reasons, however, i feel it fair to state that in my humble opinion, since Thatcher, we have not had a Prime Minister who appears to be as strong as Gordon Brown.

We cry out for strong leaders yet fear them greatly when we finally get one.

His policy's may be termed as a gamble but i don't see any other choice but to gamble.

The Conservative's seem to be clueless in what they are actually doing other than attack Brown for everything that he proposes.. naturally.

There is no doubt that that we are in for tough times ahead as is most of the West, i just feel that Brown has made some right choices. I do believe that the only way at this moment in time is to borrow to boost the economy. More jobs would be lost should he not take this route.
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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by Galbally »

oscar;1085164 wrote: Pay heed??

Germany have been critisized right across Europe because it will not cut taxes and boost public spending to support the economy. Their fiscal stimulus is approx £10 billion or 0.5 % of GDP. The proposals to increase this to 1.3 % of GDP make it more than Britain.

Brown's fiscal stimulus including the 2.5% VAT cut amount to 1 % of GDP.

Germany's un-employment rate is 7.1%

In september Britain's unemployment rate was 5.8%

Even if you take the doom and gloom merchants out-look, British unemployment figures by 2010 would be around 8.2%. That's IF predictions are correct.

Germany's public debt has been one of the highest in decades.. It stands at an astonishing rate of 65% of GDP or £1.1 Trillion. This is the only reason Germany critises Brown's borrowing, they don't want to stand any extra burden.

Compared to other EU countries, Brown borrowed less during his time as Chancellor. At present we stand at only £616 billion gross debt. It is set to rise, granted, but if it did not, more jobs and small bussines would be lost.

Germany's public spending was at 43.8% of GDP last year.

Britain was 44.4 % of GDP last year. Given Germany's greater export market, the difference is significant.

Germany's tax rate is almost the same as Britain. Germany's income tax is 44pc with top levels and Britain 45pc.

Germany has enjoyed lower interest rates than Britain but only until recently. The European Central bank's main rate is 2.5%. They do not want to lower them to keep the money men happy.

Britain currently stands at 2% with further cuts expected.

Take heed from Germany?? Bollocks.. I'd rather take safety lessons from 'Abu Hamza'.


Oscar, all I am saying is that you listen to what the German Finance minister is saying, and think about why he is saying it, not that you have to change your policies. Just to think about it, instead of listing off figures and sneering at the Germany economy, which remains Europe's largest economy and the only Western nation that is able to maintain a trade surplus with China (in other words they can't be that stupid).

I am not saying that Britain should follow exactly the German policy or be lectured to by the German Finance Minister as they are in slightly different economic positions. Its understandable why the Germans are a little annoyed with the British as they have had to endure many economic lectures for the last 20 years from Britain about how wonderful deregulated markets are. Its not the time for lectures though, but cooperation, and the German intervention was probably a case of bad diplomacy, so if the British Government are annoyed thats fair enough.

But the criticisms have some validity and do require to be thought about, instead of just dismissing as Euro guffle.

We (the Irish) could also be accused of being very foolish over the past few years, in allowing our property boom to turn into a unsustainable bubble and stimulating consumer spending through borrowing to a point where it could only end in trouble. Now in response I could also list off loads of stats about why the Irish economy is fantastic and we have and have that, but thats not going to help trying to understand why in reality we are actually we are in the s*its economically. It would just be bluster and arrogance, instead some honesty and acceptance that we don't always get things right is more constructive.

Its obvious that for Europe to get through this crisis we need Britain, France, and Germany the big 3 economies and political leaders to co-operate and do their best to work together, obviously there are going to be differences of opinion and policy, thats fine, we are all entitled to find our own way, but working together is going to make it much easier than trying to go it alone.

In any case, happily at the moment, the EU has agreed a stimulus package, which seems to be a mix of the British and German approaches. I agree with the British in terms of the fact that you can't just do nothing in such circumstances, and normal rules are not completely applicable in this situation.

But I also agree generally with the opinion that using public money to just try and boost consumer spending is not the way to prime the pump, and the VAT cut in particular isn't going to make people buy more, its just taking money out of the government coffers, and will required increased borrowing for not much gain.

As for the Abu Hamsa slur, that says more about you than about Germany my dear. You are not at war with the Germans any more, they are you allies and friends. :)
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Oscar Namechange
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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Galbally, i am very aware of Germany's export. (Why do you think I left that one out?)

gmc answered my question, so how about you?

What's the alternative solution to save jobs and business other than The Brown Policy??
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by gmc »

Oh dear. Now he's throwing the toys out the pram.

Anglo-German rift deepens as UK envoy issues formal protest - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

Does anyone believe the ambassador would do that without gordie boy's approval?
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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by Oscar Namechange »

gmc;1085635 wrote: Oh dear. Now he's throwing the toys out the pram.

Anglo-German rift deepens as UK envoy issues formal protest - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

Does anyone believe the ambassador would do that without gordie boy's approval?


There is no statement or proof that the Embassador formally protested with Gordonlicious knowing.

Quite right he should throw his toys out of his pram , if, he knew of the protest.

'Steinbruck' is an idiot. He did not attack the British Government or Darling, he lauched a personal attack on Gordon Brown.

The proof that he is an idiot is the fact that 27 memeber states including Germany agreed to Gordon browns proposals and backed the £175 billion European injection of Finance.

The Tory's have done nothing more than i would expect of them. Short of coming up with a alternative solution and constant critisism of Gordon Brown, they have just exploited 'Steinbruk's' attack.... Pathetic!
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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germans hit out at gordon brown ..brown hits back

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Gordonlicious toys are back in the pram... He beats Germany.

Gordon Brown claims victory in credit crunch row with Germany - mirror.co.uk
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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