Interesting movie trailer...

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:46 pm

Fascinating trailer! I want to see that film. It displays the true character of the US Christian: Religious terrorists. If only there were a Gitmo to send them all to. But I'd want to send them to a place without 3 meals a day, without religious trinkets and books to cling to, and of course without a Caribbean climate! Gitmo is a resort. Christian, Jewish and Islamic terrorists should be sent to Greenland!

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:51 pm

It displays the true character of the US Christian: Religious terrorists.

Really? That's interesting. I don't remember any US Christians strapping on explosives and blowing up trains and buses or flying crowded planes into commercial skyscrapers. You know something we don't?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:33 pm

No they just shoot abortion doctors.

It was one of the ell know evangelists Robertson or Falwell or someone else who tols a congregation to let a wave of hatred come of them for the non-Christians.

It is the ultra right that ultimately drove Shrubby to invade Iraq.

lIt is Christians who protest at the funderals of young gay men.

It is the ultra right that promote globalization which is contrary to the very life and message of Jesus, at least as it is being carried out.

It is a wonderful Christian nation that will obey the rules it signs on to when things go in its favour but ignore them when it is not in their favour.

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:53 pm

Oh Ted :yh_worshp That was good.

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:13 pm

Ted wrote: No they just shoot abortion doctors.

It was one of the ell know evangelists Robertson or Falwell or someone else who tols a congregation to let a wave of hatred come of them for the non-Christians.

It is the ultra right that ultimately drove Shrubby to invade Iraq.

lIt is Christians who protest at the funderals of young gay men.

It is the ultra right that promote globalization which is contrary to the very life and message of Jesus, at least as it is being carried out.

It is a wonderful Christian nation that will obey the rules it signs on to when things go in its favour but ignore them when it is not in their favour.

Shalom

Ted:-6

I see. So the actions of a few taint the whole. One bad apple spoils the bunch, is that it? I'm fine with those perameters as long as you are willing to extrapolate them to all groups and sections of society.

(1) Exactly 5 people have murdered a total of 8 abortion doctors or providers in, what, 34 years? That's eight too many to be sure but it hardly represents a sustained threat to the general public. More convenience store clerks are killed every month.

1993: David Gunn murdered Micheal Griffin. Gunn is serving a life sentence.

1994: Paul Hill killed Dr. Britton and a security guard. He was executed for his crime.

1995: John Salvi killed two women. He was sentenced to two life terms but committed suicide in prison.

1998: A guard was killed in a bombing committed by Eric Rudolph. He is in custody.

1998: Dr. Sleppian was murdered by James Kopp who was given the maximum penalty. Most abortion violence is committed by one group, The Army of God, which is so underground even its own members have no contact with one another. Hardly the pro-life cabal we read about in the press.

Also seems that society has taken care of these dregs and removed them from our midst. But we'll stick with the original premise - an extreme minority of "pro-life" people have engaged in violent activity therefore all pro-lifers are terrorists. Got it!

(2) "lIt is Christians who protest at the funderals of young gay men."

There is one group from the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kansas that I know of that engages in this dispicable activity. I don't doubt that there may be a handful more but even a handful out of tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of congregations is not indicative of the whole. But that blows our theory, therefore we'll concede that because one, two, or maybe seven congregations protest in hateful, dispicable ways that all Christians are hateful and dispicable. Got it!

(3) As for your other three examples, Ted, I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt as we all know how corrupt and evil the religious right is. I personally know of no fundies who support globalization or any who gathered arms and forced Bush into Iraq. But apparently you are privy to insider info and/or run in some rough circles.

(4) Recently in the news, a former prison nurse shot a correction officer and helped her convict husband escape. I'm sure you remember the story. By the guidelines developed in this thread we can now proclaim that prison nurses, in general mind you, are murderers since prison nurses shoot correction officials.

(5)In local headlines, two homosexual men have been sentenced to prison for abducting a 14-yr old boy and forcing him into repeated sex acts. They took turns sitting on him as the other violated him. Just yesterday another was arrested for murdering his gay lover. So we know that homosexuals rape and murder therefore homosexuals are terrorists. Or so say some in this thread.....

(6) http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7908466/

According to the FBI, not Adam Zapple, the top domestic terrorist threats come not from right wing Christians or abortion opponents but from animal rights activistis and environmentalists. Aren't those guys lefties? Guess that makes Pamela Anderson a terrorist. Oh, and me too cause I'm a member of the National Geographic Society and the National Wildlife Federation. Hurry send me to Gitmo or some other gulag before I terrorize somebody!

After all, we've determined that it is not the exceptional individual or occasional fringe group who commits violent crimes and terror attacks but large generalized groups of people. So we know that Christians (specifically of the rightwing variety), homosexuals, pro-animal rights groups, environmentalist (lest we forget Ted Kozinski), let's not forget blacks, and uh women because they murder children (Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, yada, yada, yada), oh and men because they kill wives (Scott Peterson, Charles Stuart, Mark Hacking, etc), athletes because they kill people (OJ Simpson, Rae Carruthers, etc), and oh how the list goes on. Gosh, I'm not sure anyone is left uncovered. Guess we are all terrorists or so seems to be the conclusion set in this thread.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:33 pm

That is not the conclusion at all. I simply pointed out that no country including Canada is free from such dispicable behaviour.

There are many find American citizens who simply want to live and let live and get on with their lives and enjoy life. In fact that would be most of them.

However, the Government is moving far to close the right and that is not helpful in international trade. Of course Jesus Himself was more then a little left of centre. Many Christians around the world seem to ignore that fact. Speaking theologically that is a betrayal of the very life and teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth.

Of course not going along with the treaties the American Govt. signs is not good for international trade either.

For the 8th time NAFTA has said there is no problem with Canadian lumber and the $5B stolen from Canadians ought to be returned.

The American Govt wants our oil, gas, hydro and water but it has to be on their terms. Hardly what I would call a decent way to treat ones "friends".

Shalom

Ted:-6

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:51 pm

Adam Zapple wrote: Really? That's interesting. I don't remember any US Christians strapping on explosives and blowing up trains and buses or flying crowded planes into commercial skyscrapers. You know something we don't?
I agree with Ted. Yes, the actions of a few speak for ALL in the group. How many Palestinian suicide bombers over the last 5 years and how many Palestinians?? How many Saudis participated in 9/11 and how many Saudis are there total? You have condemned all of them because they aren't Christian. Christian conservatives in this country need to know they Can be held responsible for their terrorist element. This country has coddled them like meek sheep for far too long. They are also more of a threat to America than al-Qaida could EVER be.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:38 pm

MicahLorain wrote: I agree with Ted. Yes, the actions of a few speak for ALL in the group. How many Palestinian suicide bombers over the last 5 years and how many Palestinians?? How many Saudis participated in 9/11 and how many Saudis are there total? You have condemned all of them because they aren't Christian. Christian conservatives in this country need to know they Can be held responsible for their terrorist element. This country has coddled them like meek sheep for far too long. They are also more of a threat to America than al-Qaida could EVER be.

And GOOD Christians SPEAK out about the few bad apples all the tyme, unlike the Palestinian's or Saudis'.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:52 pm

Ted wrote: That is not the conclusion at all. I simply pointed out that no country including Canada is free from such dispicable behaviour.

There are many find American citizens who simply want to live and let live and get on with their lives and enjoy life. In fact that would be most of them.

However, the Government is moving far to close the right and that is not helpful in international trade. Of course Jesus Himself was more then a little left of centre. Many Christians around the world seem to ignore that fact. Speaking theologically that is a betrayal of the very life and teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth.

Of course not going along with the treaties the American Govt. signs is not good for international trade either.

For the 8th time NAFTA has said there is no problem with Canadian lumber and the $5B stolen from Canadians ought to be returned.

The American Govt wants our oil, gas, hydro and water but it has to be on their terms. Hardly what I would call a decent way to treat ones "friends".

Shalom

Ted:-6

Gee wonder why they (US goverment) are moving to the right Ted?

Could it be that is what the majority voted for in the last election?

Don't think the majority was from the left.

Or do you see it different?

About the lumber dispute...... Talk to ol KKK Robert Byrd (DEMORATT). He is the one who hung the admendment around your neck. (see below)

Further complicating the situation is the "Byrd amendment," a U.S. trade law that takes money from duties paid by foreign companies and distributes it to their U.S. competitors. The law has funneled some $4 billion into a pot to which U.S. and Canadian companies are fighting for access.

Canada supports repealing it as I do to.

FULL STORY:

WTO APPELLATE BODY CONDEMNS THE Ã¢â‚¬Å“BYRD AMENDMENTÃ¢â‚¬
THE US MUST NOW REPEAL IT

SHAZAMM

BTS :-6

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:58 pm

BTS wrote: And GOOD Christians SPEAK out about the few bad apples all the tyme, unlike the Palestinian's or Saudis'.

I've never heard a Christian condemn another Christian picketing the funeral of a gay, or a serviceman as the Phelps cult does now. I've never heard any Christian leader condemn anti-Semetic remarks by TV Evangelists and writers. Never heard any criticism at all within Christianity. (At least it's not publicized.) The Palestinians have no state or government as their refugee camps are regularly bulldozed or shelled by the Israelis. They are angry, scattered and powerless just like the US and Israel want them. The Saudis are ruled by the most militant of Islamic factions and always have been. As a religious state you have no right to criticize the Royal family. (Coming Soon to the US!!) Incidentally they are great personal friends of the Bushes. They had a sleepover at the Crawford compound very recently.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:09 pm

MicahLorain wrote: I've never heard a Christian condemn another Christian picketing the funeral of a gay, or a serviceman as the Phelps cult does now. I've never heard any Christian leader condemn anti-Semetic remarks by TV Evangelists and writers. Never heard any criticism at all within Christianity. (At least it's not publicized.) The Palestinians have no state or government as their refugee camps are regularly bulldozed or shelled by the Israelis. They are angry, scattered and powerless just like the US and Israel want them. The Saudis are ruled by the most militant of Islamic factions and always have been. As a religious state you have no right to criticize the Royal family. (Coming Soon to the US!!) Incidentally they are great personal friends of the Bushes. They had a sleepover at the Crawford compound very recently.

Ok hear yea hear yea.............

I condemn all Christian wackos (or cult) that spew hate towards any gay, Muslim, serviceman, black, white, pink, yellow, red, green........

As far as you, you sound a lot like like Osama to me, Same GD speil................

"The Palestinians have no state or government as their refugee camps are regularly bulldozed or shelled by the Israelis. They are angry, scattered and powerless just like the US and Israel want them. The Saudis are ruled by the most militant of Islamic factions and always have been. As a religious state you have no right to criticize the Royal family. (Coming Soon to the US!!) Incidentally they are great personal friends of the Bushes. They had a sleepover at the Crawford compound very recently."

So what was the date of the sleep over? Kind of a jammie party huh?

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:37 pm

BTS wrote: Ok hear yea hear yea.............

I condemn all Christian wackos (or cult) that spew hate towards any gay, Muslim, serviceman, black, white, pink, yellow, red, green........

As far as you, you sound a lot like like Osama to me, Same GD speil................

"The Palestinians have no state or government as their refugee camps are regularly bulldozed or shelled by the Israelis. They are angry, scattered and powerless just like the US and Israel want them. The Saudis are ruled by the most militant of Islamic factions and always have been. As a religious state you have no right to criticize the Royal family. (Coming Soon to the US!!) Incidentally they are great personal friends of the Bushes. They had a sleepover at the Crawford compound very recently."

So what was the date of the sleep over? Kind of a jammie party huh?
The Saudi royals frequently visit the Bushes at the compound. The recent death of their robed leader brought them here yet again. They stayed at the compound. Did Faux News forget to air that?? Yeah, same GD speil; This Micah doesn't flipflop!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:53 pm

MicahLorain wrote: Incidentally they are great personal friends of the Bushes. They had a sleepover at the Crawford compound very recently.
BTS wrote: [...]So what was the date of the sleep over? Kind of a jammie party huh?
MicahLorain wrote: The Saudi royals frequently visit the Bushes at the compound. The recent death of their robed leader brought them here yet again. They stayed at the compound. Did Faux News forget to air that?? Yeah, same GD speil; This Micah doesn't flipflop!
This from FoxNews.com articl titled "Saudi Arabia: No Friend of Ours"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,72684,00.html

In part:

Prince Bandar oils his way across Washington with oil dollars to lobbyists and PR flacks. He treats our capital something like Jakarta or Kiev, where government officials can be bought outright.

Consequently, the Saudi ruler gets the big prize: A visit to the Bush ranch. Even the ambassador gets hours in Crawford, Texas, with the president in blue jeans. Other foreign ambassadors -- whether they're from Britain, Mexico or Russia -- can't get even a 10-minute meeting with the president.

No wonder Secretary of State Colin Powell last week called Saudi Arabia "a great friend to the United States for many, many years and a strategic partner."

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:44 pm

Pfft. Anti-Christian Propaganda. The Christians I know are decent, loving, giving people. They only want to live in peace and enjoy life. This movie is hate speech.

Besides, whether God exists or not (and I believe He does, and I should know, I'm a Mathematician and his handwriting is easy to see if you know where and how to look) believing in a deity makes life more bearable and serene. It makes people happier, and it makes death easier to accept.

So why try to crush that belief?;)

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:49 pm

And speaking of hate, Micah....is there any light in your life at all? Literally every post you make is decrying something, putting something down, mocking values, or a call for destruction.

Doesn't anything make you happy in this life? Do you love anyone? Do you have faith in anything? Do you ever go outside, roll in the grass, swing on a swing, swim in the ocean, and smell the flowers?

The reason I ask is because...that's where you'll find God. :rolleyes:

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:49 pm

Jives wrote: And speaking of hate, Micah....is there any light in your life at all? Literally every post you make is decrying something, putting something down, mocking values, or a call for destruction.

Doesn't anything make you happy in this life? Do you love anyone? Do you have faith in anything? Do you ever go outside, roll in the grass, swing on a swing, swim in the ocean, and smell the flowers?

The reason I ask is because...that's where you'll find God. :rolleyes:
I am a generally happy person. God isn't in my yard or anywhere else I roll in the grass. I just oppose Christian fundamentalists, imperialism and conservatism. There is alot more out there than those three evils. I love everything else!!!

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:02 pm

You have condemned all of them because they aren't Christian.

I have? Would you please quote me if I said such a thing?

Christian conservatives in this country need to know they Can be held responsible for their terrorist element.

What terrorist element?

I've never heard a Christian condemn another Christian picketing the funeral of a gay, or a serviceman as the Phelps cult does now.

Where have you been? To satisfy you, I will have condemn them again. I have condemned them many times in the past.

I've never heard any Christian leader condemn anti-Semetic remarks by TV Evangelists and writers.

Show me an example and I'll condemn anti-Semitism. Haven't you heard? The left is aghast at the budding romance between the Christian right and Jewish organizations. More anti-semitism flows from the left than the right could ever hope to dream. And if you are intertwining skinheads with conservative christians then you are a very confused person who doesn't remotely understand those he hates.

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:31 pm

Adam Zapple wrote: I have? Would you please quote me if I said such a thing?

What terrorist element?

Where have you been? To satisfy you, I will have condemn them again. I have condemned them many times in the past.

Show me an example and I'll condemn anti-Semitism. Haven't you heard? The left is aghast at the budding romance between the Christian right and Jewish organizations. More anti-semitism flows from the left than the right could ever hope to dream. And if you are intertwining skinheads with conservative christians then you are a very confused person who doesn't remotely understand those he hates.
The Christian terrorist elements are clinic bombers, gay bashers and funeral picketers, pundits that endorse the execution of those that don't march in lockstep to religious nuts, anti Jewish pastors and those working to turn America into a religious state, like Iran, intolerant of all outside their belief system. You may well have spoken out against these Holy Warriors but I haven't heard it anywhere else. And I'm a news junkie. As for the budding romance between Christian zealots and ultra orthodox Jews; Old News. The settler, Kahanite legions inside Judaism have always targeted and hated the same people their cross waving bretheren do. With the exception of some virulent anti -Jewish preachers and movements inside Christianity. The overwhelming majority of Jewish people here and in Israel are Lefties. I do know who and what I see as a threat to this country. It's simple really; Conservative Christians, Orthodox Jews (Though low in number.) Islamic extremists, skinheads, the Klan/David Duke/Nationalist militia types and most Republicans. Capitalist domination of our only two viable political parties is a big nasty threat as well.

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:53 pm

I think it's important to remember that the Christian Scriptures, the Bible actually predicted a rift in Christianity where the Church would largely be taken over by deceivers teaching doctrines of demons and bringing persecution. Much of the symbolism in Revelation concerns the adulterous mixture of church and state.

The atrocities of the church in the Middle Ages, and the despicable attitudes of some on the politically overactive religious right do by no means testify to the falsity of Chrsitianity and the Bible- on the contrary- they are the fulfillment of prophecy.

Ho Ho! There is so much to it, that if you only knew, it would blow your mind and give you a greater appreciation of the Bible as the Sure Word of Prophecy. Of course, you have to understand, sharing those things steps on some toes!

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:02 pm

The Christian terrorist elements are clinic bombers, gay bashers and funeral picketers, pundits that endorse the execution of those that don't march in lockstep to religious nuts, anti Jewish pastors and those working to turn America into a religious state, like Iran, intolerant of all outside their belief system.

No offense, Micah but all you're providing to the discussion is innuendo. I'll agree with you that clinic bombing is terrorism but you fail to link those actions to Christianity. I argue that those who bomb clinics aren't Christian. It is an abortion issue, not a Christianity issue. There are Christians who support abortion adn non-Christians who oppose it so your correlation just doesn't work. Perhaps you have widespread evidence of Christian pastors calling for a jihad against abortion clinics, evidence of Christian schools teaching that unbelievers must be killed. I doubt you do, but if you do I would like to see it. You mention "pundits that endorse the execution of those that don't march in lockstep to religious nuts". Again, I ask for references cause I really don't know what you are talking about. I do know of liberals who have wished death on those who don't walk lockstep to radical liberalism and I can provide those for you if you wish. And I'm not refering to never-heard of liberal nutjobs, I'm talking well-known names - celebrities, journalists, etc. Yet, I manage not to accuse all liberals of being terrorists. All your hate-speech amounts to nothing more than another high-dive off the liberal ivory tower of "tolerance". Banzai!

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:06 pm

telaquapacky wrote: I think it's important to remember that the Christian Scriptures, the Bible actually predicted a rift in Christianity where the Church would largely be taken over by deceivers teaching doctrines of demons and bringing persecution. Much of the symbolism in Revelation concerns the adulterous mixture of church and state.

The atrocities of the church in the Middle Ages, and the despicable attitudes of some on the politically overactive religious right do by no means testify to the falsity of Chrsitianity and the Bible- on the contrary- they are the fulfillment of prophecy.

Ho Ho! There is so much to it, that if you only knew, it would blow your mind and give you a greater appreciation of the Bible as the Sure Word of Prophecy. Of course, you have to understand, sharing those things steps on some toes!

Interesting points on the subject. I have a sister that is an evangelical nutjob. They, like other celebrants of Revelation yearn for the day the Chosen Christians are disappeared into Heaven and the rest of humanity is destroyed, along with our world. I think it's sick and perverted to pray for the eternal deaths of ALL that live outside political Christianity, to hope for the world's destruction. How could anyone worship such a violent, murderous, vengeful God?? Many family dinners have been marred by our sibling clashes at the table.

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:12 pm

Adam Zapple wrote: No offense, Micah but all you're providing to the discussion is innuendo. I'll agree with you that clinic bombing is terrorism but you fail to link those actions to Christianity. I argue that those who bomb clinics aren't Christian. It is an abortion issue, not a Christianity issue. There are Christians who support abortion adn non-Christians who oppose it so your correlation just doesn't work. Perhaps you have widespread evidence of Christian pastors calling for a jihad against abortion clinics, evidence of Christian schools teaching that unbelievers must be killed. I doubt you do, but if you do I would like to see it. You mention "pundits that endorse the execution of those that don't march in lockstep to religious nuts". Again, I ask for references cause I really don't know what you are talking about. I do know of liberals who have wished death on those who don't walk lockstep to radical liberalism and I can provide those for you if you wish. And I'm not refering to never-heard of liberal nutjobs, I'm talking well-known names - celebrities, journalists, etc. Yet, I manage not to accuse all liberals of being terrorists. All your hate-speech amounts to nothing more than another high-dive off the liberal ivory tower of "tolerance". Banzai!
The link to Christianity is the hate groups are motivated by GOD. Christian family values and imprinting them on our government and culture. I am not so swift with the computer and do not know how to post links or articles, but if you truly have never heard evangelical hatespeech you are lucky, and living in a bubble. I'm not a liberal by the way. Look at the trailer this thread is all about. A tiny taste of Jesus if you will. This area is infested with ultra rightist churches. Fred Phelps and his Christian conservatives live 50 miles west of my chair.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:57 pm

MicahLorain wrote: The link to Christianity is the hate groups are motivated by GOD. Christian family values and imprinting them on our government and culture. I am not so swift with the computer and do not know how to post links or articles, but if you truly have never heard evangelical hatespeech you are lucky, and living in a bubble. I'm not a liberal by the way. Look at the trailer this thread is all about. A tiny taste of Jesus if you will. This area is infested with ultra rightist churches. Fred Phelps and his Christian conservatives live 50 miles west of my chair.

I have to preface this with the fact I have not read the entire thread. I do not believe in hat egroups and America is chock full of religious diversity. The religious people would care not one whit what you say..... Never mind - this subject so upsets me. I grew up in an extremely religious Bible thumping family. I was hurt.

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:13 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: I have to preface this with the fact I have not read the entire thread. I do not believe in hat egroups and America is chock full of religious diversity. The religious people would care not one whit what you say..... Never mind - this subject so upsets me. I grew up in an extremely religious Bible thumping family. I was hurt.
I am exposed to bible beating family members too. It does hurt knowing how willing they are to see everyone burn forever if they don't bow to their brand of Christianity. To see my sister unchained from this iron cloak and set free to be who she wants is my greatest wish. I believe we should illuminate these forces that devour spirit and self reliance. I care not if they listen to me, I just want them to know they haven't fooled everyone.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:24 pm

Hey Micha - I was beat and raped in the name of the Bible. I think there are several messiahs according to to that specific religion. I also think mankind needs something to believe. I believe our energy goes to a place - not heaven or hell - but according to physics it goes.

I believe we should illuminate these forces that devour spirit and self reliance.

I have written this down and will keep it to tell others. It is the way we make it through our life.

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:11 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: Hey Micha - I was beat and raped in the name of the Bible. I think there are several messiahs according to to that specific religion. I also think mankind needs something to believe. I believe our energy goes to a place - not heaven or hell - but according to physics it goes.

I believe we should illuminate these forces that devour spirit and self reliance.

I have written this down and will keep it to tell others. It is the way we make it through our life.
How absolutely horrible nvalley. Nothing remotely close to my worst experiences. You may be right that we posses a force, life energy of some sort and we return to it upon death. That alone is more logical than 'God' with a big beard, angels and knowledge of everyone's birthdays. We all find out the truth one day as we all have an expiration date. I for one would not want to be a part of such a 'God' as the Christian/Islamic/Jewish worship.

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:14 pm

TW2005 wrote: "It is precisely because Biblical revelation is absoutely authoritative and perspicuous that the scientific facts, rightly interpreted, will give the same testimony as that of Scripture. There is not the slightest possibility that the facts of science can contradict the Bible" (Morris 1974)

The core of the theory of scientific creationism, bodly stated, is that the Word of God has got to be true. Everything in human experience must be explained in such a way that it does not contradict the Word of God, given to us in the Judaeo-Christian Bible and translated for modern Protestant Christians under divine inspiration. Scientific observations are not more privileged than other human experiences: they, too, must conform to what we can read in the Bible. If they do not seem to conform, either they are illusions or they are erroneously interpreted. If they are erroneously interpreted, it may be becuase the Devil, Satan has caused the mistake as part of his strategy to damn mankind FOREVER. The struggle for correct interpretations of human observations, according to many scientific creationists, is no less than the struggle between God and the Devil for the souls of humanity.

Scientific creationism is a modern version of the ageless myth of the battle between Good and Evil. It rests upon the concept that conflict is basic to the world and that everything in the world must take sides in conflicts (the principal of oppositional dualism). Either you are for God, or you are on the side of the Devil; agnosticism will not do, for any denial of knowledge of God automatically puts you in the camp of the other. People who accept the premise that this is a world of oppositional dualism must see the Bilble as true or not true. If the Bible is true, then the message of the Gospels, that human souls can be saved through faith in Jesus Christ id true. If the Bilbe is not true then how will our souls be saved? We will be damned! This is the reasoning that make scientific creationist committed evangelists. In their black and white world, armies are in inevitable battles. To take the Word of God as true without question can lead to a glorious salvation. To question the Bible leads to eternal damnation. Love for fellow humans, Christian love, calls these Christian fundamentalists to try and persuade all men and women of this simple Truth, to win these souls in peril from the machinations of the Devil. Thus, scientific creationism can beam as a lighthouse promising a sercure harbor of faith, sheltered from the horrors and complexities of the modern world.

Morris, Henry M., ed. 1974. Scientific creationism

Godfrey, Laura R. 1983. Scientists Confront Creationism
That's tough to follow but interesting. I do not condone any type of "Creationism." Even if the word "Scientific" precedes it. Science has no part of religious hysteria.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:22 am

TW2005 wrote: Please Jives, show me where to look. I'm dying to see the handwriting of God.

No problem, TW! Let's start with Pi. An irrational number, it never ends and never repeats. It's built into the entire fabric of the Universe. The distance around our Galaxy divided by the distance across it equals 3.14. The distance around our Solar System divided by the distance across it equals 3.14. The distance around the Earth divided by the distance through the center equals 3.14. The distance around one of your atoms, divded by the distance through it equals 3.14. Getting the picture?

Or how about the acceleration of gravity? 32 feet per second per second. If it was higher or lower, planets couldn't form and neither could life. Or maybe Plank's constant or the speed of light...all of these values were set in the first microseconds of the beginning of the Universe. If any of them were changed, even slightly, the entire Universe would've collapsed upon itself. Nothing would work.

But I guess the best place to see the handwriting of God is in your own backyard. Just go out at night, when it's cold and clear, and look up at the night sky. See those quadrillions of points of light? That's God's handywork. Pretty cool, huh?

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:50 pm

Here's one: the extraocular eye muscles. The four recti muscles turn the eyes up, down, left and right. But problem is they tend to rotate the eyeball in the process (torsional movement). Enter the obliques. Inferior oblique controls intorsion, Superior oblique controls extorsion. The obliques grab the eye from behind. The inferior oblique does this by originating in the anterior of the orbit (front of the eye socket). But the superior oblique originates in the back of the orbit, and passes through a pully-like loop of cartilege called the trochlea, and then reflects back to the back of the eye. The rope-pully like mechanism cannot evolve morphologically according to the current concept of evolution. It was a mechanical design by an intelligent designer.

MicahLorain · Post by **MicahLorain** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:00 pm

telaquapacky wrote: Here's one: the extraocular eye muscles. The four recti muscles turn the eyes up, down, left and right. But problem is they tend to rotate the eyeball in the process (torsional movement). Enter the obliques. Inferior oblique controls intorsion, Superior oblique controls extorsion. The obliques grab the eye from behind. The inferior oblique does this by originating in the anterior of the orbit (front of the eye socket). But the superior oblique originates in the back of the orbit, and passes through a pully-like loop of cartilege called the trochlea, and then reflects back to the back of the eye. The rope-pully like mechanism cannot evolve morphologically according to the current concept of evolution. It was a mechanical design by an intelligent designer.
WTF?? You Jesus freaks are REALLY desperate!! Sounds like you need a strong drink.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 pm

Ted at his best.

Full Marks Man

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:06 pm

you guys wanting to debate intelligent design ought to check out this thread too. http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=1

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:33 am

TW, either you are literarily gifted or you are a plagiarist. I loved that post. What I don't understand is its apparent conclusion I inferred: that evolution and ID are mutually exclusive.

Why do ID and evolution have to be mutually exclusive? Why does relying on luck to produce a more functional appendage (a necessary first step for natural selection to select it) make more sense? I don't get it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:58 am

TW2005 wrote: Oops! Sorry I forgot to provide the link when posted. I put it in the original post for you. As for the Conclusion you are having trouble with, i'll have to get back to you on that. I just had a few moments to check the site before I headed out for a while. Sorry but I just don't have the time right now. But I will address your concerns in when I get the chance. Hope thats ok?
Waiting with bait-like breath. (I just love sushi)

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:32 am

Holy Crap...TW2005 and I are defending the same side of an argument. Well, now I've seen everything.

One point, though. I see Evolution as a system that was created, along with everything else in the Universe, by a Creator. You see it as just a sterile process.