12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death

[Oscar Namechange]

Odie;1033598 wrote: so sorry this happened, how awful!

but your right, its kids, and until something is legally done to them....it will carry on as it has for decades!


To be absolutely sure, our cat was examined by the head vet who believed that because the hole in the top of his head was a perfect circle and his claws were not shredded(Consistent of a car injury), it was not a car. Also, we live down a private lane only used by a handfull of cars a day who crawl along because of children playing in the lane.

We had an autopsy done by the head of the pet cremetorium who has seen thousands of hit and run by cars. He was certain that this was a blunt instument alike to a hammer or the end of a baseball bat.

The Sergeant knows who did it. They sent a p.c. into the school to ask kids to report if any kid was bragging about it. problem is, as the police and i full well know, the kid is a liar and even if brought in for questioning, he'd deny it.

Also, it's most likely that our cat was taken from the garden. He was 18 yrs old, in ill health and unable to scale the fencing we have.

At least i can say that the police did put a bit of efforet into it.

[Oscar Namechange]

fuzzy butt;1033585 wrote: I've just read through this on Mary bell. what's tragic is that her behaviour is alarmingly normal for her age group and experience. sometimes that's too hard for people to comprehend.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/noto ... dex_1.html


A lot of the Mary Bell case has come back to me now i have read through the site.

If it was indeed Norma, the friend, i wonder why Mary has never appealed against her conviction. Instead she live's her life as an anon.

I think there is two sides to each arguement here. Her mother almost certainly abused her with the bed-wetting and showed a lack of emotion. However, i know kids that were brought up similar and they don't all go on to murder, infact we'd be awash with murderers if they did. Society has called a halt on child abuse but back then, it was far more prevelent.

[Oscar Namechange]

The question is..... what do you do with the kids who beat this kangaroo to death??

I don't think fining the parents hurts the kids in any form.

[Odie]

oscar;1033612 wrote: To be absolutely sure, our cat was examined by the head vet who believed that because the hole in the top of his head was a perfect circle and his claws were not shredded(Consistent of a car injury), it was not a car. Also, we live down a private lane only used by a handfull of cars a day who crawl along because of children playing in the lane.

We had an autopsy done by the head of the pet cremetorium who has seen thousands of hit and run by cars. He was certain that this was a blunt instument alike to a hammer or the end of a baseball bat.

The Sergeant knows who did it. They sent a p.c. into the school to ask kids to report if any kid was bragging about it. problem is, as the police and i full well know, the kid is a liar and even if brought in for questioning, he'd deny it.

Also, it's most likely that our cat was taken from the garden. He was 18 yrs old, in ill health and unable to scale the fencing we have.

At least i can say that the police did put a bit of efforet into it.


oh god, this had to be earth shattering to you guys...........

what's really sicker is when adults do this, friend of mine, her neighbour hated her cat............one morning she got up, went on to her deck and saw her cat on he steps.............its neck had been snapped.

she knew full well it was her neighbour, but again, no proof!

[RedGlitter]

abbey;1033426 wrote: What should I get over,yet another child killing thread ?

You are so bloody predictable.


And you are so rude.

[RedGlitter]

I think this nonsense of blaming parents 100% for their kids' actions is just that, nonsense. Until we make kids/people take responsibilty for their actions, we will never teach them correctly. Th enotion that they're free and clear until they're 18 is ridiculous and frankly, dangerous.

[Oscar Namechange]

Odie;1033668 wrote: oh god, this had to be earth shattering to you guys...........

what's really sicker is when adults do this, friend of mine, her neighbour hated her cat............one morning she got up, went on to her deck and saw her cat on he steps.............its neck had been snapped.

she knew full well it was her neighbour, but again, no proof!


The main suspect of our cat is 15 yrs old. All the local plod's know it was him or his pals but like your neighbour, no proof. He will trip up eventually, i am sure.

We just hope that if it was a hammer, he went quickly and didn't suffer. The police were very good, i'll give them that.

Your poor neighbour.

What hope have any kids got when they see adults behave like it??

[Oscar Namechange]

RedGlitter;1033678 wrote: I think this nonsense of blaming parents 100% for their kids' actions is just that, nonsense. Until we make kids/people take responsibilty for their actions, we will never teach them correctly. Th enotion that they're free and clear until they're 18 is ridiculous and frankly, dangerous.


This is what i find different to the last thread.

The last kid was 7 yrs old and we can put the blame on the parents and the zoo, but this one is 12 years old. They are between that age of blaming the parents and being entirely responsible for their own actions.

The kids have to be made accountable as well as the parents. How else do they learn that they have destroyed a life in the most ghastly way and disressed probably millions of people. I do believe in at least a spell in prison and hard labour for a few months.

If anyone gets upset at what Red glitter has said on here, you should have gone on line to The Sun newspaper yesterday. They were calling for his death.

[Pheasy]

I have not read the rest of the posts here, so sorry if I am saying the same as others! But WTF! If one of my children could do this I would seriously worry about where I went wrong! If a child can do this, then they are 'beasts" and I would worry about what they would do in the future! If they can do this to a living, breathing life that feels pain, then they have no respect for life! no feelings! Watch your family around these killers! :mad::mad:

[wildhorses]

Unfortunately, these kids are already criminals. They should be tried as adults and be sent to jail. Many adult criminals were raised in less than adequate environments too....but they are still criminals. They must be dealt with as criminals. And these kids are criminals already. It really is very sad, but I don't think that kids who torture animals are headed towards any normal life. If they were stealing hub caps...that is kid stuff. But killing an animal is murder and should be dealt with as such. They are junior murderers.

[Odie]

wildhorses;1033755 wrote: Unfortunately, these kids are already criminals. They should be tried as adults and be sent to jail. Many adult criminals were raised in less than adequate environments too....but they are still criminals. They must be dealt with as criminals. And these kids are criminals already. It really is very sad, but I don't think that kids who torture animals are headed towards any normal life. If they were stealing hub caps...that is kid stuff. But killing an animal is murder and should be dealt with as such. They are junior murderers.


I agree as earlier said, they need to learn now what the consequences are like, not just a grounding by their parents.

[CARLA]

Yet another senseless brutal beating of a helpless animal. I have no words for the sadness I feel when I read these stories. Where and how are we failing our children?? Is it neglect, violence in the home that brings out this behavior?? I'm just stunned when I read these stories sends chills up my spine.

Once again I wonder how do we save these kids??? 12 is old enough to know better, 12 is old enough to know the pain your causes a defenseless animal that your beating to death, 12 is old enough for some sort of punishment that involves the parent as well. There has to be consequences for their actions, and then I'm not sure they won't do it again.

[wildhorses]

CARLA;1033758 wrote: Yet another senseless brutal beating of a helpless animal. I have no words for the sadness I feel when I read these stories. Where and how are we failing our children?? Is it neglect, violence in the home that brings out this behavior?? I'm just stunned when I read these stories sends chills up my spine.

Once again I wonder how do we save these kids??? 12 is old enough to know better, 12 is old enough to know the pain your causes a defenseless animal that your beating to death, 12 is old enough for some sort of punishment that involves the parent as well. There has to be consequences for their actions, and then I'm not sure they won't do it again.


Parents learn their parenting skills from their own parents. That is really the only training they have. So I don't see it as their fault that they don't know how to parent. Do we have parenting classes in school? No we don't. So we can't really blame them if they have never had resources on how to parent. We send kids to school for many years....and yet there are no parenting classes. This is one of the most important undertakings that a person takes in their life. Why is it that math and science are so important...but not parenting?

[wildhorses]

fuzzy butt;1033765 wrote: Who the hell are any of you to determine how a twelve year old thinks, and who of you can determine the nuerological capacity of every single twelve year old around the world? ?

What twelve year old do you measure this 10 and 12 year old by? who's twelve year old do you know in which to measure? do you personally know this twelve year old?

Some of you think more highly of lower species than your own and that to me says a darn more about yourselves than it does about this twelve year old.!!!!!

or, hang on. If you lot put as much time and effort into human children as you do your bloody animals maybe you wouldn't be complaining about the behaviours of children within your own society !!!

Stop going on about animal shelters and how poor and defenceless animals are and put your time into orphanages and shelters and institutions for children!!!!!!

SAVE A BLOODY KID FOR ONCE!!!!!

and FFS "killing an animal is murder? " WTF? Do you eat meat ? then you should be tried as a criminal for murder and cannibalism............Christ if this is your logic how come they havent put you to death already?

You'll give every bloody chance and blame everything and everyone else for a dog who bites, but if a child is mistreated so badly that it does the same thing you're all out for blood ..................makes me sick.

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH go give ya bloody animals a kiss and a pat, and feel all good about yourselves . Cause your no good or use for anything else!!!!!

CHRIST I DON'T BELIEVE WHAT I'M READING HERE. hope your all bloody happy with yourselves.:-5:-5:-5:-5


Beating an animal to death for the pleasure of seeing it suffer is not the same thing as killing an animal for food. It is murder. senseless inhumane murder. These kids will grow up to kill people for the fun of it. They enjoy killing. If you think it is the same thing then you are seriously mistaken. They should be put in jail to protect society against them.

[spot]

oscar;1033538 wrote: I also don't remember reading anything about her being abused. Infact, i seem to remember that she was brought up in a poor area, but decently by a good mother. Having said that, the mother was investigated and found to have a string of 'male visitor's' so maybe Mary Bell saw things she shouldn't have.It's probably easier for society to "believe in" evil children than to unravel cause and effect.Mary Bell was the product of a most heinously abusive mother -- a young (16 when Mary was born), volatile prostitute who not only "tried repeatedly to rid herself of this unwanted child" but forced her young daughter to service her clientele in the most despicable, unimaginable, horrific fashion. While Mary's physical life was saved by a concerned posse of nearby relatives, the sexual abuse went undetected, sending her emotional life into a tailspin. No one heard Mary cry out.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1999/0 ... print.html



The entire article's very relevant to the thread, you might like to read it.

[spot]

wildhorses;1033772 wrote: Beating an animal to death for the pleasure of seeing it suffer is not the same thing as killing an animal for food. It is murder. senseless inhumane murder. Well, no, not unless you rewrite the dictionary. Beating an animal to death for the pleasure of seeing it suffer is beating an animal to death for the pleasure of seeing it suffer. Murder is killing people unlawfully and with intention. I do wish people could all agree on a vocabulary, preferably one that can be substantiated with authority.

[Nomad]

Wow.

What a cozy little household some of you one of you must have.

Brrrrrrr

[Odie]

RedGlitter;1033367 wrote: I'm telling you, eliminate kids like that and we'll have better adults and a better world. Instead we mollycoddle them and blame their parents. They're just born evil and have no place in the world. Some of you wont like that and you don't have to. So their parents were fined, big deal. That does nothing. Unless the parents are so mad they beat the kids senseless in which case "maybe" they feel some of that kangaroo's pain but I doubt it.


Treat them like adults, throw them in prison, if they had of killed a human being............they'd dam well be in jail!

and stop blaming the parents, parents can only be with their kids a certain amount of hours in the day, we all try to raise our kids best we can, but all kids, like adults have a mind of their own, they dam well enjoyed doing this, kids do the crime, they should pay the fine and jail time, like any adult would have to!

sick of hearing all of these poor kids are from bad upbringings, does this include my son who at the age of 14 OD'd on cocaine? He well knew about drugs from me and his dad, we preached it and gave him examples, he chose to do this on his own with his friends!.........both my sons were taught at early ages the what not to do stuff.

and sick of hearing, all of these kids need help, spare the children!

yes they need help alright, straight to jail and they can get programs right there to help them!

when I was a kid, some of the kids used sling-shots to kill birds, they're parents were awesome people, these kids knew also what they were doing and enjoyed it as well!

THEN BB GUNS were invented, well the kids sure had a great time then, birds, raccoons, squirrels, neighbours cats!:-5:-5

so give it a dam good rest on always blaming upbringings and oh poor kid needs help and gets off scott free!

[Oscar Namechange]

I do agree with Odie.

I said earlier on a post that i do work the local police and am the spokesperson at local police/resident forums.

When you have police officers shaking their heads in despair at what some of these kids do, there is a world out there that some you are un-aware of.

Do you all talk to police officers at least once a week about anti-social behaviour by kids as young as 6? Because i do.

I do not make it up to spice up a thread, this is what i am imformed of on a weekly basis by a beat manager.

One of things that has been said to me by the police before is that this crime by children is not always kids from the stero-type single mothers on drugs, in a council house with men in and out.

They often come from the most wealthy family's with hard working, moral parents.

In reply to fuzzy. I do desperately care about kids and i also spend alot of my spare time working with local councillors to get them off the streets. Only recently, after a year of planning, did we open a boxing club in Cadbury Heath where volunteer ex boxers come in to train the kids.

At a recent police meeting, they were praising our efforts as we already had a waiting list but officers said, "What a shame none of them are the persistent trouble-makers". We went round the trouble spots handing out leaflets and talking to kids about the club and they were not interested. It appeared that they were far happier hanging around the streets drinking. One young kid actually said to me, he would attend the club providing police were kept out. That says a lot to me.

Another example is that we have a bus come to the village twice a week that is full of computer games, p.c's etc, again all organised by volunteers and yet we don't get any kids over 12 years old attend.

Another councillor started up a youth centre in Emerson Green. That was full of pool tables, darts etc. Again, none of the persistent trouble makers joined.

It's all very well to assume that because some of us defend an animal-- then we hate kids.

That is not the case, we are simply being realistic. It is the violence used against that animal that i question so harshly.

I live smack bang next door to a large primary school and nursery. Again, we are always helping the kids raise funds for various projects voluntarily.

For some-one to say i and others have a problem and put an animal first when no-one knows the effort that myself and Mr Oscar put in to get these kids off the street and give them an interest is un-fair.

I also Chair two resident groups and one of the things we are always discussing is more nurserys, play area's erc for kids.

When you put your heart and soul into arranging a club for them to take part in and they sneer and don't want to know, it can be soul destroying. Then, when they find them-selves nicked by the local bobby, their first cry is, "There's nothing to do".

I happen to regard all life, be it child, adult, animal or mineral.

We may be the superior race in some eyes, but all our creatures are living, breathing forms of life.

If they haven't got the iota of respect for another animal then they certainly have none for anything else.

We are not talking about a child crushing a cockroach or swatting a fly. There is a heck of a difference between that and a very large mammel.

We can express our dis-taste and disgust without being accused of being anti-kid.

I said it before on the other thread about the 7 yr old. Hands up all those of you who would be quite happy for your child to bring these kids home to your place for tea??

Hands up all those who would be quite happy if these kids were playing with yours in the playground?

The truth is, none of you would be happy.

[Oscar Namechange]

Very often, the parents have no idea of what their kid is up to.

I looked after a take-away for my husbands boss earlier this year. A group of kids gathere at approx 4 in the afternoon and by midnight, i'd had enough and phoned the police. It was raining and they just went back and forwards from the take-away, to the war memorial next door, then to the entrance of the little supermarket where they were being abusive for no reason to any-one who happened to be there.

It took me hours to finally give up with these kids and call the police.

When the y arrived, the worst of the offenders, they took him home.

The following day, the local Sergeant sent two plods down to view the take-away's cctv camera's. After two hours, they had seen enough.

The Sergeant rang us the next day and told Mr Oscar that the two officers were so horrified at what they saw, they visited the parents of this lad who was no more than 12 yrs old.

In two hours of cctv footage, the Sergeant said they had seen 4 SERIOUS offences towards innocent members of the public. The offences were Public oreder offences, incitement, threatening behaviour, breach of the peace, drinking and smoking under age etc.

When the beat manager visited these parents, he said he believed them in that they were truely horrified to hear what their kid was doing when he said he was just going out with his mates. The kid couldn't lie, it was all there on cctv.

We have not seen that kid since, so we assume, his parents took the reins, but they had absolutely no idea of what he was up to.

Most parents are not with their kids 14/7 and don't have a clue.

At least, on this occassion, the parents did not make excuses for him.

[Kathy Ellen]

originally posted by Oscar...



said it before on the other thread about the 7 yr old. Hands up all those of you who would be quite happy for your child to bring these kids home to your place for tea??

Hands up all those who would be quite happy if these kids were playing with yours in the playground?

The truth is, none of you would be happy.





Oscar, I believe that many people said or inferred that this child has severe mental problems and needed help.



I don't think many people would want this child to play with their children or come to their homes. To my knowledge, no one posted that this child was normal. Believe that we agreed that what he did was absolutely awful and that he needed psychological help and not death.



But, I think we'll never agree so I won't post again. I will though, when I have time, read the responses of everyone again.

[Oscar Namechange]

Kathy Ellen;1034298 wrote: originally posted by Oscar...



said it before on the other thread about the 7 yr old. Hands up all those of you who would be quite happy for your child to bring these kids home to your place for tea??

Hands up all those who would be quite happy if these kids were playing with yours in the playground?

The truth is, none of you would be happy.





Oscar, I believe that many people said or inferred that this child has severe mental problems and needed help.



I don't think many people would want this child to play with their children or come to their homes. To my knowledge, no one posted that this child was normal. Believe that we agreed that what he did was absolutely awful and that he needed psychological help and not death.

The "Sun" newspaper readers who were commenting on line about doing the same to the kids, are being totally stupid of course.

When these cases are reported, we never hear enough about the parents to make a fair judgement. If they did report on the sort of home life these kids had, it would be easier to make a more balanced decision.

I think the truth of it is, any-one with kids, feels extremely un-comfortable when anything like this comes to light. They know the act of these children is barbaric but the question is "If we condemn one child for such an act, are we saying that all children are capable of such an act"? The hostility comes from the suggestion that all children are capable of this and we are suggesting that every-one's children who posts on here, are also capable.

We all know, that any kid in our familie's could not and would not do this, so it's difficult to understand some-one else's child doing it.

I do agree with Redglitter that some-times there is a time when it's not o.k. to keep blaming the parents.

How would anyone feel if it were a kid in their family and they had no idea of what their kid was up to, no idea of what they were capable of, and they had brought them up decently with morals to all life form, only to be blames un-mercifully when their kid did this?



But, I think we'll never agree so I won't post again. I will though, when I have time, read the responses of everyone again.


Don't feel like that Kathy, we all try to see every one's feelings and point of view. Just because we don't all agree on the same thing, it doesn't mean we shouldn't post

[Oscar Namechange]

Sorry Kathy, i edited that one in the wrong places. The bit about "Sun" readers on line onwards is my view and not Kathy's folks.

[Kathy Ellen]

oscar;1034327 wrote: Sorry Kathy, i edited that one in the wrong places. The bit about "Sun" readers on line onwards is my view and not Kathy's folks.


:wah::wah: Wondered what you meant.



I would never tell someone not to post their opinions. I used to get upset with some post, but grew up a little and realized that everyone is entitled to their opinion whether I agree with it or not;)

[Kathy Ellen]

Oh, forgot to add Oscar....



When I said that I wasn't going to post anymore about the 7 yr. old child, I didn't mean to infer that I was upset. I just meant that there's no sense in going round and round....just want to agree to disagree;)

[koan]

I'm pondering whether these children may have felt like killing a kangaroo because they live in a world where adults wish kids were dead.

[Oscar Namechange]

koan;1034443 wrote: I'm pondering whether these children may have felt like killing a kangaroo because they live in a world where adults wish kids were dead.


No-one wished them dead BEFORE they beat an innocent animal to death for a laugh.

Have you actually read all the posts on this thread? You may see that it has been said that "The Sun Newspapers" readers comments were stupid.

We all have children. In my family, i have them coming out of my ears. Also, did you read some posts back, the amount of my time i give up voluntarily to helping kids in our community?

I have never said i wished them dead. I said 20 years in a goolag.

[RedGlitter]

Stop your baiting koan. You're as transparent as saran wrap.

[Oscar Namechange]

koan;1034443 wrote: I'm pondering whether these children may have felt like killing a kangaroo because they live in a world where adults wish kids were dead.


I can understand some-one beating a grisley bear to death if his life was in danger but these kids did it for fun?? The Kangaroo was in a zoo not in the wild, it was certainly no threat to these kids. They went there with intent. That in it'self is a crime.

That's o.k. in your book is it??

Shall we just keep making excuses for them??

[Oscar Namechange]

RedGlitter;1034460 wrote: Stop your baiting koan. You're as transparent as saran wrap.


Nice one glitter :wah::wah::wah::wah:

[Betty Boop]

oscar;1034461 wrote: I can understand some-one beating a grisley bear to death if his life was in danger but these kids did it for fun?? The Kangaroo was in a zoo not in the wild, it was certainly no threat to these kids. They went there with intent. That in it'self is a crime.

That's o.k. in your book is it??

Shall we just keep making excuses for them??


No we can't make excuses for them, they need to do their time and punishment and be re-educated how to treat every other 'living thing'.

What we don't need is to respond to these children by lowering ourselves to their level.

[Chezzie]

Lets all play Nice please...:rolleyes:

Back to the topic:D

So realistically does anyone have a reasonable answer to this problem and we already did Labour Camp, Elimination and Jail?:D

[Oscar Namechange]

Betty Boop;1034468 wrote: No we can't make excuses for them, they need to do their time and punishment and be re-educated how to treat every other 'living thing'.

What we don't need is to respond to these children by lowering ourselves to their level.


Well said.

We also said a way back Koan that fining the parents was not the answer. Yes, it might make the parents wonder where their kids are and what they are doing for fear of another fine. The children have to be punished..... How else do they learn???

[Oscar Namechange]

Chezzie;1034469 wrote: Lets all play Nice please...:rolleyes:

Back to the topic:D

So realistically does anyone have a reasonable answer to this problem and we already did Labour Camp, Elimination and Jail?:D


I don't think the answer in this case is working in the zoo. At 12 years old, it's not like the 7 year old who may not of realised the conseqences. I don't think they should ever be allowed near another animal again.

I agree with some of which Spot said, in that taking them away from their home enviroment and the parents would help.

It has to surely be a custodial sentance, even for a few months. They'll remember that.

[Betty Boop]

oscar;1034471 wrote: Well said.

We also said a way back Koan that fining the parents was not the answer. Yes, it might make the parents wonder where their kids are and what they are doing for fear of another fine. The children have to be punished..... How else do they learn???


I don't think you can pigeon-hole the children either, some of them will have come from horrific backgrounds that include abuse, some won't. Whatever has happened that 'society' has made them behave that way needs to be corrected.

[koan]

RedGlitter;1034460 wrote: Stop your baiting koan. You're as transparent as saran wrap.


I'm not baiting. I'm stating my opinion.

Stop putting yourself in charge of who is or isn't allowed to express opinions.

It's my opinion that children are becoming more despondent and cruel because they grow up in a world that does not support their sense of safety and security. Taking a life is the desperate act of a person who feels a lack of control. It gives them a sense of power. We live in a world that creates children with such deficiencies.

Killing the children who make us aware of our shortcomings as a society is like cutting off the surface of a tumor and expecting the rest of the tumor to disappear out of fear. It's ass-backwards thinking.

[spot]

oscar;1034459 wrote: I have never said i wished them dead. I said 20 years in a goolag.
Half the battle is sharing a common vocabulary. What that means to me is a roughly one in three chance of surviving the sentence.

I even have a graph.

I even have a more accurate estimate based on it. 34% survival. I was pretty close, wasn't I.







What I'd like is one of those thought experiments. Like saying, if Iran or Syria or another bogey-state did what you're suggesting, would you consider them barbaric and criticize their appalling human rights record. Make it "they do this" instead of "we ought to do this" and decide honestly how you'd react. Iran sentencing twelve year olds to 20 years forced labour in concentration camps with high death rates? No hackles raised? And yet this is what you want in England?

[CARLA]

I agree well said.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Betty Boop

No we can't make excuses for them, they need to do their time and punishment and be re-educated how to treat every other 'living thing'.

What we don't need is to respond to these children by lowering ourselves to their level.


I agree also well said.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Betty Boop I don't think you can pigeon-hole the children either, some of them will have come from horrific backgrounds that include abuse, some won't. Whatever has happened that 'society' has made them behave that way needs to be corrected.[/QUOTE]

[spot]

Chezzie;1034469 wrote: Lets all play Nice please...:rolleyes:

Back to the topic:D

So realistically does anyone have a reasonable answer to this problem and we already did Labour Camp, Elimination and Jail?:D


Me Miss please Miss.

Commercial residential rehabilitation and upbringing units, legally assigned parental responsibility for every child of any age which offends or fails tests or whatever it is that puts a child into the category of needing rehabilitation. Take the child away from the failed parents permanently, give it to experts with a track record of bringing children up to a high standard.

My own preference, once they've incontrovertibly demonstrated their expertise, would be to hand every child in at birth. If parents can be demonstrated to invariably be less competent than an expert system like that then no parent has any excuse to be bringing up children.

In what way am I unreasonable?

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1034522 wrote: Half the battle is sharing a common vocabulary. What that means to me is a roughly one in three chance of surviving the sentence.

I even have a graph.

I even have a more accurate estimate based on it. 34% survival. I was pretty close, wasn't I.







What I'd like is one of those thought experiments. Like saying, if Iran or Syria or another bogey-state did what you're suggesting, would you consider them barbaric and criticize their appalling human rights record. Make it "they do this" instead of "we ought to do this" and decide honestly how you'd react. Iran sentencing twelve year olds to 20 years forced labour in concentration camps with high death rates? No hackles raised? And yet this is what you want in England?


I looked at your graph with interest Spot.... The statistics end in 1953... a long way from where we are now.

No, i would not consider Iran or Syria barbaric if they did such a thing... I'd applaud them.

The problem i have with those bogey states is that they still stone women to death, chop hands off for stealing etc. They are human rights issue's.

One of the reasons i said 'goolag' was because the children are Russian. We can not bring them over here, to sit in a comfy cell with a gym, p.c, day's out and anything else they want.

Another reason i said goolag is alike to some American Prisons, they have a system of hard labour, i.e. breaking rocks. I just happen to think punishment of that kind would be long remembered by the kids and not having their parents pay a fine for them.

[spot]

oscar;1034543 wrote: The problem i have with those bogey states is that they still stone women to death, chop hands off for stealing etc.
No they don't and no they don't. That's as uninformed as your previous post about Mary Bell's childhood.

[spot]

oscar;1034543 wrote: I looked at your graph with interest Spot.... The statistics end in 1953... a long way from where we are now.To all intents and purposes what people normally understand by GULAG ended in the 1950s: "By the end of the 1950s, virtually all "corrective labor camps" were dissolved. Colonies, however, continued to exist. Officially the GULAG was liquidated by the MVD order 20 of 1960-01-25".

[koan]

oscar;1034543 wrote: I looked at your graph with interest Spot.... The statistics end in 1953... a long way from where we are now.

No, i would not consider Iran or Syria barbaric if they did such a thing... I'd applaud them.

The problem i have with those bogey states is that they still stone women to death, chop hands off for stealing etc. They are human rights issue's.

One of the reasons i said 'goolag' was because the children are Russian. We can not bring them over here, to sit in a comfy cell with a gym, p.c, day's out and anything else they want.

Another reason i said goolag is alike to some American Prisons, they have a system of hard labour, i.e. breaking rocks. I just happen to think punishment of that kind would be long remembered by the kids and not having their parents pay a fine for them.


The gulags were dismantled by the end of the 50s... hence the statistics being from the time period.

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1034563 wrote: No they don't and no they don't. That's as uninformed as your previous post about Mary Bell's childhood.


Then what is the answer Spot.

It is all well saying take the child away from the parents. We don't know for sure what these parents are like.

Training in raising children by text book is not always the correct way. Have we not seen enough of incompetant child care facilitie's to say they do not have their faults?

Who is to say that some child-care 'Expert' is better eqiped that some of our youth offender institutions or the work prisons put in to re-habilitating such problem kids?

My apologie's i was going by memory of the press reports at the time of Mary Bell's trial and not what experts have written since.

The case of Mary Bell is over 40 years old. Society changes a great deal over 40 years.

[spot]

oscar;1034572 wrote: Then what is the answer Spot.

It is all well saying take the child away from the parents. We don't know for sure what these parents are like.

Training in raising children by text book is not always the correct way. Have we not seen enough of incompetant child care facilitie's to say they do not have their faults?

Who is to say that some child-care 'Expert' is better eqiped that some of our youth offender institutions or the work prisons put in to re-habilitating such problem kids?


That's why it has to be a private facility getting paid solely by results. One fixed child, one hefty payment. Once still-screwed-up child, no payment. Out of a dozen start-ups with different policies the ones with policies that work stay in business and expand. They continually improve because otherwise they eventually fail to pay dividends. All you've ever seen up until now are state-run reformatories which have nothing at all to do with what I'm talking about. It's a very simple matter to run a pilot scale test of whether what I'm discussing works, it needn't even involve any courts as a pilot, it can be purely a voluntary arrangement with problem families looking for a solution.

We know what the parents are like because of the screwed-up state their children are in. They're demonstrably failed parents. Leaving them in charge of the child any longer is just asking for more trouble.

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1034579 wrote: That's why it has to be a private facility getting paid solely by results. One fixed child, one hefty payment. Once still-screwed-up child, no payment. Out of a dozen start-ups with different policies the ones with policies that work stay in business and expand. They continually improve because otherwise they eventually fail to pay dividends. All you've ever seen up until now are state-run reformatories which have nothing at all to do with what I'm talking about. It's a very simple matter to run a pilot scale test of whether what I'm discussing works, it needn't even involve any courts, it can be purely a voluntary arrangement with problem families looking for a solution.

We know what the parents are like because of the screwed-up state their children are in. They're demonstrably failed parents. Leaving them in charge of the child any longer is just asking for more trouble.


And do you think it fair that parents lose the child they love to other institutions because they're kid may have screwed up once?

[spot]

oscar;1034588 wrote: And do you think it fair that parents lose the child they love to other institutions because they're kid may have screwed up once?


Quite definitely. The interests of the child are paramount, isn't that basis of all child law?

All I see in sentencing them to twenty years hard labour is punishment, not fixing. Do you seriously think they'd come out of twenty years hard labour improved in any way?