Do you find it rather curious that a few months ago we were agonizing over what we spend in Iraq, and the counter in Times Square had to add another digit to keep track of the national debt and now we (the federal government that is) are throwing money around like we have a printing press (yikes we do), and the government is working its way into one private business after another? Even Obama is saying now that trying to deal with the “economic crisis will delay for at least two years and attempt to deal with the ever growing problem of Medicare and Social Security; forget about expanding health care.
Has anyone stopped to think of the long term consequences of all this on us, our children and grandchildren? Taxes, the debt burden and inflation will go thought the roof and if you think there is no money for socially nice stuff, just wait for ten years or so. But no matter, the politicians causing all this will have moved on by then and those in power tens years hence will simply blame those who have moved on. :mad:
Argentina is about to confiscate all the money in private pension funds so it does not default, hopefully that is beyond reality in the US, but it is a good indication of how radical the left can get.
And for those of you who will say, what is happening now is all necessary and the price we have to pay, I say nonsense. :-5 That is the same logic that prolonged the great depression. The only thing that will help us now is for the economy and all of us part of it working our way back gradually and prudently and in an affordable manner without sticking it to the next generation.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Yes, paying off some of the 10 trillion that the US has borrowed on behalf of its citizens, (much of it it seems to give tax breaks to already hugely profitable companies, and fight wonderfully self-defeating wars) would be a start.
Cutting budget spending somehow, without further eroding the very shakey real economy by impoverishing the soon to be unemployed people at the bottom even further, perhaps increasing taxes just a teeny weeny little bit on the extremely wealthy, on ridiculous private borrowing and consumption of luxuries and using the money to pay off a bit of the national debt and get the tax burden off the next generation for the complete profligacy of this one.
Of course the problem is that the US economy and several other leading Western economies are actually almost completely built on personal and business debt, extremely dodgy financing, and a ludicrous asset bubble in the mortgage market. Britain and my own country Ireland have followed the American way and we are now in exactly the same trouble.
By the way, in terms of the Great Depression, the credit bubble in 2008 is much bigger than the credit bubble in 1929, as is public debt and government borrowing; also alarmingly the credit is owed in a large part to foreigners who at some point will want their money back. When that starts happening, then its lights out time. Taxes will have to increase, and government spending on things like the military, infrastructure, basic healthcare, and the criminal justice system will have to be radically cut back.
In essence our countries are almost broke, the hall of smoke and mirrors that was Anglo-Saxon high finance has been exposed for what it is, manufacturing has been moved to Asia, and consumers are living on debts that are all being called in. Its a very bad situation for all of us. Also its important to note, its completely self-inflicted and was completely avoidable. All it took was for governments to stand up to big money interests and stop allowing such massive levels of borrowing and the creation of the biggest asset bubble in financial history.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1030994 wrote: Do you find it rather curious that a few months ago we were agonizing over what we spend in Iraq, and the counter in Times Square had to add another digit to keep track of the national debt and now we (the federal government that is) are throwing money around like we have a printing press (yikes we do), and the government is working its way into one private business after another? Even Obama is saying now that trying to deal with the “economic crisis will delay for at least two years and attempt to deal with the ever growing problem of Medicare and Social Security; forget about expanding health care.
Has anyone stopped to think of the long term consequences of all this on us, our children and grandchildren? Taxes, the debt burden and inflation will go thought the roof and if you think there is no money for socially nice stuff, just wait for ten years or so. But no matter, the politicians causing all this will have moved on by then and those in power tens years hence will simply blame those who have moved on. :mad:
Argentina is about to confiscate all the money in private pension funds so it does not default, hopefully that is beyond reality in the US, but it is a good indication of how radical the left can get.
And for those of you who will say, what is happening now is all necessary and the price we have to pay, I say nonsense. :-5 That is the same logic that prolonged the great depression. The only thing that will help us now is for the economy and all of us part of it working our way back gradually and prudently and in an affordable manner without sticking it to the next generation.
I don't know if you have the same thing over in the State's Quinn but here, if your a struggling small business man or woman, the larger companie's that you sell to, have the right to not pay your invoice for 28 days. Then you have to send them a reminder etc etc and it can be up to 56 days before payment for goods is recieved.
This is one thing that has crippled the cash flow with the smaller business-man.
I am relieved to see in our press today that our Prime Minister is bringing in new laws that they must be paid within 7 days. He has also asked that small business's can pay their rent monthly instead of weekly.
I think that will get the cash flow going for the smaller people.
It is criminal that they have had to wait so long to be paid by customers in the first place. I'm sure many would have gone under because of this.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
oscar;1031026 wrote: I don't know if you have the same thing over in the State's Quinn but here, if your a struggling small business man or woman, the larger companie's that you sell to, have the right to not pay your invoice for 28 days. Then you have to send them a reminder etc etc and it can be up to 56 days before payment for goods is recieved.
This is one thing that has crippled the cash flow with the smaller business-man.
I am relieved to see in our press today that our Prime Minister is bringing in new laws that they must be paid within 7 days. He has also asked that small business's can pay their rent monthly instead of weekly.
I think that will get the cash flow going for the smaller people.
It is criminal that they have had to wait so long to be paid by customers in the first place. I'm sure many would have gone under because of this.
Hey, thats a good idea. Maybe Gordon is nearly as wonderful as you say he is Oscar!
Our lot brought in a budget last week, they tried to take universal healthcare off the over 70s (no one else has it), and there was almost a revolution led by the crinklies, by god they have put the wind up the government, who have had to completely back down the feckers.
Unfortunately, the problem remains that our government managed somehow to turn one of the richest countries in the world, with massive budget surpluses and 7-8 percent growth into one which will have to borrow 13.5 billion next year just to run the bloody place, what a shower of wasters. :-5
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
Galbally;1031034 wrote: Hey, thats a good idea. Maybe Gordon is nearly as wonderful as you say he is Oscar!
Our lot brought in a budget last week, they tried to take universal healthcare off the over 70s (no one else has it), and there was almost a revolution led by the crinklies, by god they have put the wind up the government, who have had to completely back down the feckers.
Unfortunately, the problem remains that our government managed somehow to turn one of the richest countries in the world, with massive budget surpluses and 7-8 percent growth into one which will have to borrow 13.5 billion next year just to run the bloody place, what a shower of wasters. :-5
What do yer mean Gordon is NEARLY as wonderful??? What have i been telling you for weeks man??
He doe's seem to be doing and saying the right things here at the moment.
I had a sleepless night a few nights ago and i googled the Irish Times. I read all about your government and the over 70's healthcare. I was bloody furious.
I think any joker who proposed that here would lose the Election now.
Rather than tax the high earners more, take it off the very people who have toiled all their live's paying the damn tax in the first place.
That's shocking
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
oscar;1031047 wrote: What do yer mean Gordon is NEARLY as wonderful??? What have i been telling you for weeks man??
He doe's seem to be doing and saying the right things here at the moment.
I had a sleepless night a few nights ago and i googled the Irish Times. I read all about your government and the over 70's healthcare. I was bloody furious.
I think any joker who proposed that here would lose the Election now.
Rather than tax the high earners more, take it off the very people who have toiled all their live's paying the damn tax in the first place.
That's shocking
It is quite shocking, but its produced such public anger that the politicans are literally running scared from their own constituents. Its unusual in Irish society, which is usually quite deferential when it comes down to it. However, I think attitudes have changed fairly dramatically, and there isn't a hope in hell this government is going to get re-elected, in fact its likely that it will fall within the next few months. Their political authority has been destroyed by this ludicrous measure, I am delighted that Irish people are finally re-discovering their flipping humanity after so many years of greedy aquistiveness and political apathy.
Unfortunately, we are still broke so something is going to have to be cut, and taxes are going to have to be increased, and the same thing is going to happen in the UK. Thank the boys in the city. Don't forget, 16 billion in bonuses handed out this year. Maybe Marx was right after all, the greedy b*stards.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
Also its important to note, its completely self-inflicted and was completely avoidable. All it took was for governments to stand up to big money interests and stop allowing such massive levels of borrowing and the creation of the biggest asset bubble in financial history.
I was with you up until the last sentence. In the US the government virtually forced lending institutions to provide mortgages to those who could not afford it is some misguided idea that everyone should own a home. We actually had a well known professor writing articles that people were saving too much for retirement (when there was negative savings rates) on the theory that the growth in home equity was actually savings...so much for that theory.
Self-inflicted yes, largely by the baby boom generation who thought they could have it all and deserved it all, but also financed it all.
If I and my family weren't getting burned in the process of this comeuppance, I would be sitting back and laughing at those with overwhelming debt, rather I am just mad as hell.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
oscar;1031026 wrote: I don't know if you have the same thing over in the State's Quinn but here, if your a struggling small business man or woman, the larger companie's that you sell to, have the right to not pay your invoice for 28 days. Then you have to send them a reminder etc etc and it can be up to 56 days before payment for goods is recieved.
This is one thing that has crippled the cash flow with the smaller business-man.
I am relieved to see in our press today that our Prime Minister is bringing in new laws that they must be paid within 7 days. He has also asked that small business's can pay their rent monthly instead of weekly.
I think that will get the cash flow going for the smaller people.
It is criminal that they have had to wait so long to be paid by customers in the first place. I'm sure many would have gone under because of this.
We have no such laws that I am aware of, it is all by contract, but I know for sure that companies of all sizes delay payment as long as they can, all the time.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1031328 wrote: I was with you up until the last sentence. In the US the government virtually forced lending institutions to provide mortgages to those who could not afford it is some misguided idea that everyone should own a home. We actually had a well known professor writing articles that people were saving too much for retirement (when there was negative savings rates) on the theory that the growth in home equity was actually savings...so much for that theory.
Self-inflicted yes, largely by the baby boom generation who thought they could have it all and deserved it all, but also financed it all.
If I and my family weren't getting burned in the process of this comeuppance, I would be sitting back and laughing at those with overwhelming debt, rather I am just mad as hell.
Sure, I have no issue with that, you should only be able to afford a home if you earn enough money to pay for it, but I think you are missing something.
Banks borrow massive amounts of capital from overseas on the overnight markets. The banks lend massive amounts of money to everyone to compete with each other in a property market bidding war, the banks lend property developers massive amounts to build more houses and commerical property, houses, shops, and fancy buildings spring up everywhere, the prices of houses and commercials goes up and up and up.
The banks now need to lend more money to everyone because the prices are so high, so they borrow more money and use their ever increasing mortgage books as collateral, (its all highly profitable in the short term of course), they relax mortgage conditions to ensure that people can continue borrowing, they give more money to property devleopers, more money to people to complete in the market, prices go up.
Even normal companies like Boeing and GE notice how much money is being made on property and decide to get in on the gravy train, building up massive property divisions and neglecting their primary businesses as they are difficult and under competition from Asian and European manufacturers, and property is so much more lucrative for ever hungry shareholders.
Anyway, despite the risks, Investment banks and hedge funds had come up with a brilliant model for coping with such risky lending, using things called derivatives and credit default swaps, which allowed American banking institutions to sell little packages of their increasing mortgage books to each other, and to foreigners. The market for CDS is estimated to be worth 60 trillion now, thats the entire economy of planet earth.
So, things go on, People's equity is massive, banks and credit card companies start trying to get a piece of the equity action by offering them buy to let 100 percent mortgages on second homes and rental "investments", and credit cards to people who have no visible means of paying for them. They further lower the bar and get rid of the rule book, using the derivitization of their dodgy debts to justify the now almost insane lending they are engaged in long term.
But they need to keep bringing in pond life at the bottom to prop up the first time buyers market, (because property bubbles are essentially pyramid schemes based on first time buyers being idiots and paying ridiculous prices for houses) so they start giving mortages to people whose personal circumstances also mean they are unlikely to be able to pay more than 3 or 6 months of their mortgages, as they are just happy to have a house, screw the valuation or the price of the loan.
Hey! what the hell, property always increases in value right, you can reposess and sell a now more valuable house to some other lowlife on food stamps. Its a win-win for the bank, as long as you have more suckers coming forward to take on more debt. Anyway companies have got financial bets placed on people defaulting now, so having bad debts is a good thing, a profitable thing, no? No one can lose, except the pond-life and the sucker Chinese who keep handing over their savings to American banks.
The government look at the situation, they think, "hmmn, this is a tricky situation this could create problems, I know, lets lower interest rates and get rid of those pesky rules on finance to make it easier for banks and financial institutions to do their wonderfully clever business", because (of course) keeping it going is essential, and these rich guys are cleverer than us, they are the captains of the shiny free market! They know everything, don't annoy them by asking questions. So it goes on and on, up and up, until one day the price of oil starts rising rapidly, oh dear.
This effects the economy, espsecially at ground level, a lot of sub prime people start defaulting at the same time, just enough, and house prices decrease a little. That was the trigger that pushed the boulder perched on the hill just a little bit over, then the boulder started rolling, now we are here. This is a classic failure of the free market to appreciate the risks involved in the irrational exuberance and erosion of intitutional trustworthiness being created around a massive credit and concurrent property bubble, everyone had their noses so deep in the trough they stopped caring about the consequences, well for us out in the real world its consequence time.
Even if government policy had a lend in that bubble, why did "the market" not stop it before it got out of hand, after all free markets are supposed to be much cleverer than everyone else at working out what's good and bad aren't they? Thats the market religion, markets know best, governments are bad, markets are good, so why have the markets done this to their own? To the people who so much needed to believe in them that they handed over their detinies to the markets, which are now destorying those same people's futures. Its simple, this is a massive failure of market capitalism, its not Obama's fault, or the French President's fault, or British Trade Unions, or even the Russians.
Its the institutions that have been running the system, they have been engaged in a decade of lying and profiteering, creating the biggest credit and asset bubble in history, and undermining the rules that are supposed to stop them doing it, now its blown up in everyone's face and they come running to tax payers to bail their very pampered asses out, of course their lap-dog governments oblige with billions, but people start noticing, and now they are very very angry and soon there is going to be a whole new set of politics, such is the price of hubris.
Ultimately they have undermined confidence in the entire financial system, as its been built on dishonest accounting, banking, and business practices; and the fact that governments just went along with what they were being told by big money interests, shows how spineless and useless governments have been in not safeguarding the long-term interests of the actual nations (i.e. ordinary people) that they claim to govern for.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1031328 wrote: I was with you up until the last sentence. In the US the government virtually forced lending institutions to provide mortgages to those who could not afford it is some misguided idea that everyone should own a home. We actually had a well known professor writing articles that people were saving too much for retirement (when there was negative savings rates) on the theory that the growth in home equity was actually savings...so much for that theory.
Self-inflicted yes, largely by the baby boom generation who thought they could have it all and deserved it all, but also financed it all.
If I and my family weren't getting burned in the process of this comeuppance, I would be sitting back and laughing at those with overwhelming debt, rather I am just mad as hell.I'm debt-free and still mad as hell.
oscar;1031026 wrote: I don't know if you have the same thing over in the State's Quinn but here, if your a struggling small business man or woman, the larger companie's that you sell to, have the right to not pay your invoice for 28 days. Then you have to send them a reminder etc etc and it can be up to 56 days before payment for goods is recieved.
This is one thing that has crippled the cash flow with the smaller business-man.
I am relieved to see in our press today that our Prime Minister is bringing in new laws that they must be paid within 7 days. He has also asked that small business's can pay their rent monthly instead of weekly.
I think that will get the cash flow going for the smaller people.
It is criminal that they have had to wait so long to be paid by customers in the first place. I'm sure many would have gone under because of this.
The daily mail again I take it. He's not bringing new laws he's merely asking that government agencies pay their bills in a reasonable time rather than delaying as much as possible like they usually do. Local government are notoriously bad payers.
* Work with English NHS trusts and Regional Development Agencies, local authorities and other public sector employers commitment to pay firms within 10 days.
He's still not applying a windfall tax on the energy companies either or forcing them to cut prices. He's also allowed-or rather our wonderful MP's have pushed through the merger of hbos and lloyds TSB no doubt the daily mail thinks that's a good thing as well. That is going to lead to 100,000 plus redundancies.
posted by accountable
This effects the economy, espsecially at ground level, a lot of sub prime people start defaulting, and house prices decrease a little. That was the trigger that pushed the boulder perched on the hill just a little bit over, then the boulder started rolling, now we are here. This is a classic failure of the free market to appreciate the risks involved in the irrational exuberance being created around a massive credit and concurrent property bubble.
Even if government policy had a lend in that bubble, why did "the market" not stop it before it got out of hand, after all free markets are supposed to be much cleverer than everyone else at working out what's good and bad aren't they?
That's the thing you see. You can put a good case that the free market wasn't allowed to operate. Instead all the regulation was changed to allow things to keep going when otherwise there would have been bank failures earlier on. Corporate greed given free licence and basic common sense out the window. Interference in the free market but not in any way inspired by the bete noir of americans-socialism. They can't seem to grasp you get right wing inspired government interference as well as left.
The thing that buggered us up in europe was british and european banks allowing American subsidiaries to get involved in it. UK lenders were involved to a far lesser extent here and most of the ones that cropped up that relied on resecuritised loans went bust very early on. It's losses in america and us copying some of the financial practices here and for that we can't blame the americans entirely can we. Even the french banks were caught out with foreign subsidiaries involved in mickey mouse lending and senior bank officers that didn't understand what was going on. Binch of tossers the lot of them. Now the FSA here wants to increase the levy so they can pay big salaries to attract these wide boys to help them regulate better.
If it was a film script you would reject it as being too far fetched. Even now the bankers are worried about preserving their bonuses when they should be terrified of being unemployed and unemployable.
gmc;1031772 wrote: The daily mail again I take it. He's not bringing new laws he's merely asking that government agencies pay their bills in a reasonable time rather than delaying as much as possible like they usually do. Local government are notoriously bad payers.
He's still not applying a windfall tax on the energy companies either or forcing them to cut prices. He's also allowed-or rather our wonderful MP's have pushed through the merger of hbos and lloyds TSB no doubt the daily mail thinks that's a good thing as well. That is going to lead to 100,000 plus redundancies.
posted by accountable
That's the thing you see. You can put a good case that the free market wasn't allowed to operate. Instead all the regulation was changed to allow things to keep going when otherwise there would have been bank failures earlier on. Corporate greed given free licence and basic common sense out the window. Interference in the free market but not in any way inspired by the bete noir of americans-socialism. They can't seem to grasp you get right wing inspired government interference as well as left.
The thing that buggered us up in europe was british and european banks allowing American subsidiaries to get involved in it. UK lenders were involved to a far lesser extent here and most of the ones that cropped up that relied on resecuritised loans went bust very early on. It's losses in america and us copying some of the financial practices here and for that we can't blame the americans entirely can we. Even the french banks were caught out with foreign subsidiaries involved in mickey mouse lending and senior bank officers that didn't understand what was going on. Binch of tossers the lot of them. Now the FSA here wants to increase the levy so they can pay big salaries to attract these wide boys to help them regulate better.
If it was a film script you would reject it as being too far fetched. Even now the bankers are worried about preserving their bonuses when they should be terrified of being unemployed and unemployable.
Yes, but don't forget it was the banks and the free marketeers who kept insisting that the regulations were a "straightjacket" that stopped them from "creating wealth" and governments were stupid enough to allow them to dictate events. Go and read the volumous rants from right wing types for years in British and American newpapers and on TV, in fact they are still at it, only now they are blaming Obama (man I love that, its Obama fault and those invisible socialists, the banks and hedge-funds are just innocent victimes as they walk away with billions) and they try to pass the buck onto government for allowing the things that they wanted done.
No one trusts the system now, and thats because big business and high finance has totally corroded the independence of the US political system and essentially owns it, while they have made good inroads into the European system as well, though its not as bad outside of London (the City). My own lot are just as bad, basically the errand boys of the big banks who have got us here. It has to change, governments need to start legislating business in the interest of citizens and not just "profit" as if short term profits were the only thing that matters.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
Galbally;1031787 wrote: Yes, but don't forget it was the banks and the free marketeers who kept insisting that the regulations were a "straightjacket" that stopped them from "creating wealth" and governments were stupid enough to allow them to dictate events. Go and read the volumous rants from right wing types for years in British and American newpapers and on TV, in fact they are still at it, only now they are blaming Obama (man I love that, its Obama fault and those invisible socialists, the banks and hedge-funds are just innocent victimes as they walk away with billions) and they try to pass the buck onto government for allowing the things that they wanted done.
No one trusts the system now, and thats because big business and high finance has totally corroded the independence of the US political system and essentially owns it, while they have made good inroads into the European system as well, though its not as bad outside of London (the City). My own lot are just as bad, basically the errand boys of the big banks who have got us here. It has to change, governments need to start legislating business in the interest of citizens and not just "profit" as if short term profits were the only thing that matters.
Yep we are in agreement there. Demented right wing free market (as in let us do what we want ) economics gone mad. I remember Thatcher claiming that Britain could be a purely service economy it was stupid then and it is now.
Now Gordon Brown is going along with it as well. Take over the banks and fire all the senior management for gross incompetence, but no he has to help them out and ley them get their bonuses-poor dears. The taking over of hbos by LLoyds TSB is not going down well here. That is going to cost thousands of jobs and wreck the scottish economy. I think you are looking at the last days of the labour party as a viable political party for some years to come.
The power to create money is the most ominous power ever bestowed on any human being. This power is rightly criminalized when it is exercised by private individuals, and even today, everyone knows why counterfeiting is wrong and knavish. Far fewer are aware of the role of the federal government, the Fed, and the fiat dollar in making possible the largest counterfeiting operation in human history, which is called the world dollar standard. Fewer still understand the connection between this officially sanctioned criminality and the business cycle, the rise and collapse of the stock market, and the continued erosion of the value of the dollar.
:mad:
