The Worst President in History

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:03 pm

In another recent post I made, Galbally replied:

I think that either man (Obama/McCain) is going to have extreme difficulty getting over Bush's legacy of a ruinous, politically divisive, and extremely expensive war; a real collapse in American influence and diplomacy across the world; total denial about the climatic catastrophe that is unfolding in front of us; a completely devastated financial system; an economy in recession (at least); a massive budget deficit; enormous national debt; a now furious population; and a weakened political establishment.

That got me to thinking. I voted for Bush twice, in my 40 plus years of voting I have never voted for a Democrat, I am conservative believing that personal responsibility and limited government is essential, but..

I have to say that I think George Bush is very likely the worst president in the history of the United States. The status of the US in the world is at an all time low, and yes that matters. He allowed his gunslinger advisers to act without thinking and in the process did irreparable damage to reasonable conservative thinking, he failed to act to limit spending and enforce a prudent government, he failed to lead Congress toward solutions for our most pressing problems, our foreign policy is in disarray with Russia and China increasing their influence in South America and with foreign governments owning an increasing amount of the monstrous US debt.

But most of all, his legacy is going to have long term dire consequences on my children and grandchildren and that very much matters to me.

:mad::mad:

And for good measure, he sounds like a dufus when he speaks.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:11 pm

You said it, Uncle Quinn.

And, for the record, I did not vote for Bush, either time.

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:21 pm

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1004429 wrote: But most of all, his legacy is going to have long term dire consequences on my children and grandchildren and that very much matters to me.Damn right it will. The problem of the last two terms is that I spent my entire life giving the US government the benefit of the doubt, assuming it had an essential underlying goodwill toward the world at large, that its motives were pure even when it occasionally messed up its implementation, that there was a net benefit to humanity that America was powerful and influential.

The Bush White House has entirely destroyed those assumptions and I can't imagine my views will ever again get remotely close to what I've described. That my opinions have shifted so markedly is a minor matter. What counts is that I'm quite likely more representative of most people, the 95% who aren't Americans, than any other point of view.

It's no longer a question of making up ground and getting back to where you were, it's surviving as a first world nation. Fewer people want that to happen any longer than want the reverse: an America so neutered that it can never again do what it's done over the last eight years. You're too dangerous.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:58 pm

spot;406353 wrote: I have a great love and admiration for America and have always said as much.

........

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:04 pm

I don't see a contradiction, your government is a minor part of your country. It's shameful that the American people have allowed those crooks to do what they did. The consequence is that the country as a whole can't be trusted to prevent a recurrence, hence the need for you to be stopped. The cost of what's happened in these last two terms overwhelms any possible attraction of America Triumphant. I have a great love and admiration for America and have always said as much. Your ability to wreak havoc for the selfish gain of a few blood-soaked plutocrats has to be taken away from you, that's all.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:13 pm

spot;1004623 wrote: Your ability to wreak havoc for the selfish gain of a few blood-soaked plutocrats has to be taken away from you, that's all.

Mmhm.

On that dire note, I would like to redirect everyone's attention back to this thread posted by JJ:

Why America Sucks

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:16 pm

Ditto to Quinn's post.

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:58 pm

I suggested, when it happened, that the announcement of the President's Bail-out Bill was the death of classic capitalism.

Here is the BBC's view of the matter. It discusses the area covered by the opening post.

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:28 pm

JAB;1004711 wrote: Thank-you; I was thinking the same thing.

I'd be interested to know why you think it.

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:35 pm

JAB;1004718 wrote: What's to explain? I agreed with Red referring folks back to Jj's thread.

But what is there about JJ's thread that you find attractive? Do you believe it paints a fair picture of Iraq at the moment?

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:48 pm

JAB;1004732 wrote: I believe it reminds us that good has been accomplished despite all the negative propaganda you relish posting here.

What single good do you think has been accomplished in Iraq as a result of the Bush Administration's 2003 invasion that you believe is real? Just pick one, so I have something to chew at. I don't know of any at all.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:47 pm

I think as an outsider that Bush has undoubtedly been one of the worst Presidents in America's history, and (just like the credit crunch itself) he has left a fairly toxic legacy to the next couple of presidents. I do also think that America seems to have changed somehow as a country over the last decade, and not for the better. That makes me sad, as the American story has always been a hopeful one for me, being Irish.

However, I think that underestimating the ability of Americans to re-invent and re-juvenate themselves should never be underestimated. There does seem to have been a lot of complete self-delusion (and there is still a lot of wishful thinking and navel gazing going on it seems) in the States in recent years, but what is happening now is that big fat reality check that the west has been storing up for itself for a while, and particularly in America.

I really do think that things have changed and it won't be back to business as usual once this is over, its just going to take a while for the full consequences of that to roll out. But America will recover and simply adopt a new position and role in the world again (but that is going to take quite a while), it won't quite be as powerful or as influential as it was in the last few decades, but its hardly not going to be important or at the centre of world events, it remains a massively powerful and important nation.

To be honest I am equally as worried about my own continent Europe, as we also have our own issues to deal with and we also need to wake up and stop kidding ourselves that we live in a no-consequences world, where we can do what we want with no price tag attached. The current problems in America have left us with a lot of problems and some hard choices now about what we do next, also we are a big part of the system that has just fallen apart so it doesn't serve us to get too judgemental of any other country right now.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:55 pm

Spot

Your comment- The problem is: you spent your entire life giving the US Gov't the benefit of the doubt... I had to chuckle, the thought of wasted energy..

Your opinion shifted, So Has OUR'S.

Spot, Your admired too -Thank You

Patsy

Post by **spot** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:39 am

Patsy Warnick;1004787 wrote: Your opinion shifted, So Has OUR'S.Now that's something I've never seen said before. Thank you Patsy, that helps, that's very constructive.

Post by **spot** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:10 am

Galbally;1004785 wrote: I really do think that things have changed and it won't be back to business as usual once this is overCan we think about that for a moment? The intention of the bail-out is to allow the banks to extend credit to the people again, something they've stopped doing because they had to tighten their credit availability in the current conditions. The reason it's so essential to make credit available again is to bring back consumer confidence and put retail sales back to their previous levels, thereby allowing all those Main Street businesses to trade.

Have I got that right? The bail-out is to re-ignite credit spending? That's it's function?

So where does " things have changed and it won't be back to business as usual once this is over" come from?

el guapo · Post by **el guapo** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:27 am

spot;1005330 wrote: Can we think about that for a moment? The intention of the bail-out is to allow the banks to extend credit to the people again, something they've stopped doing because they had to tighten their credit availability in the current conditions. The reason it's so essential to make credit available again is to bring back consumer confidence and put retail sales back to their previous levels, thereby allowing all those Main Street businesses to trade.

Have I got that right? The bail-out is to re-ignite credit spending? That's it's function?

So where does " things have changed and it won't be back to business as usual once this is over" come from?

blah blah blah ya are boring and smell of cabbage

the hit man

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:24 pm

spot;1004666 wrote: I suggested, when it happened, that the announcement of the President's Bail-out Bill was the death of classic capitalism.

Here is the BBC's view of the matter. It discusses the area covered by the opening post.

I think it is a misnomer to call that action a bail out, it is rather a buyout. Nobody is being given anything without something in return, namely the obligations on mortgages which may eventually be paid off or the value of the homes backing them increased to create value. This is what happened in the Savings and Loan "bail out" several years ago, the government actually made money (what happened to it is another question.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:31 pm

Galbally;1004785 wrote: I think as an outsider that Bush has undoubtedly been one of the worst Presidents in America's history, and (just like the credit crunch itself) he has left a fairly toxic legacy to the next couple of presidents. I do also think that America seems to have changed somehow as a country over the last decade, and not for the better. That makes me sad, as the American story has always been a hopeful one for me, being Irish.

However, I think that underestimating the ability of Americans to re-invent and re-juvenate themselves should never be underestimated. There does seem to have been a lot of complete self-delusion (and there is still a lot of wishful thinking and navel gazing going on it seems) in the States in recent years, but what is happening now is that big fat reality check that the west has been storing up for itself for a while, and particularly in America.

I really do think that things have changed and it won't be back to business as usual once this is over, its just going to take a while for the full consequences of that to roll out. But America will recover and simply adopt a new position and role in the world again (but that is going to take quite a while), it won't quite be as powerful or as influential as it was in the last few decades, but its hardly not going to be important or at the centre of world events, it remains a massively powerful and important nation.

To be honest I am equally as worried about my own continent Europe, as we also have our own issues to deal with and we also need to wake up and stop kidding ourselves that we live in a no-consequences world, where we can do what we want with no price tag attached. The current problems in America have left us with a lot of problems and some hard choices now about what we do next, also we are a big part of the system that has just fallen apart so it doesn't serve us to get too judgemental of any other country right now.

America has changed and not for the better, that I deeply regret. From my perspective of age 65 being raised by parents of the great depression, the downward spiral began in the late 1960s and from that point forward we have focused on material wealth at the expense of family and in some cases values.

We forgot that the essence of America was in its value and political system and not in military or even economic might. Granted things never were close to perfect even from the start in the 18th century, but there was an essence in a system that was able to do extraordinary things with ordinary people. To put is simply, we became fat, dumb and happy and now we lost the happy part.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:11 pm

Quinn

which all goes back to greed.

Oh, Thank God I'm not high maintinence, I don't insist on only Granite in my kitchen, insist my closet is professionally customized to my perfection,, all on my piece of plastic.. I'm so glad to be simple at this time of crisis in the financial situation. Because, If I mentioned I'd like or want, my husband would see I/we had it. I saw this when we dated...

I was brought up very, very simple - or we were poor...

I think Bush has been the worst Pres.

and his legacy is a sespool, thrown into a lap of uncertainly.

I'm very worried

Patsy

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:54 pm

Patsy Warnick;1006256 wrote: Quinn

which all goes back to greed.

Oh, Thank God I'm not high maintenance, I don't insist on only Granite in my kitchen, insist my closet is professionally customized to my perfection,, all on my piece of plastic.. I'm so glad to be simple at this time of crisis in the financial situation. Because, If I mentioned I'd like or want, my husband would see I/we had it. I saw this when we dated...

I was brought up very, very simple - or we were poor...

I think Bush has been the worst Pres.

and his legacy is a sespool, thrown into a lap of uncertainly.

I'm very worried

Patsy
I have to agree. Bush is the worst. Luckily me and my wife are not high maintenance God I love her. My friends are always asking why I don't act like, No way to put this but. " A wealthy business owner"

Dumb asses.

Post by **spot** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:51 pm

Patsy Warnick;1006256 wrote: his legacy is a sespool, thrown into a lap of uncertainty.Ah. I must remember not to read FG while eating breakfast in future.

Post by **spot** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:52 pm

YZGI;1006369 wrote: My friends are always asking why I don't act like, No way to put this but. " A wealthy business owner"

Dumb asses.

You sold the Learjet???

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:42 am

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1004429 wrote: In another recent post I made, Galbally replied:

I think that either man (Obama/McCain) is going to have extreme difficulty getting over Bush's legacy of a ruinous, politically divisive, and extremely expensive war; a real collapse in American influence and diplomacy across the world; total denial about the climatic catastrophe that is unfolding in front of us; a completely devastated financial system; an economy in recession (at least); a massive budget deficit; enormous national debt; a now furious population; and a weakened political establishment.

That got me to thinking. I voted for Bush twice, in my 40 plus years of voting I have never voted for a Democrat, I am conservative believing that personal responsibility and limited government is essential, but..

I have to say that I think George Bush is very likely the worst president in the history of the United States. The status of the US in the world is at an all time low, and yes that matters. He allowed his gunslinger advisers to act without thinking and in the process did irreparable damage to reasonable conservative thinking, he failed to act to limit spending and enforce a prudent government, he failed to lead Congress toward solutions for our most pressing problems, our foreign policy is in disarray with Russia and China increasing their influence in South America and with foreign governments owning an increasing amount of the monstrous US debt.

But most of all, his legacy is going to have long term dire consequences on my children and grandchildren and that very much matters to me.

:mad::mad:

And for good measure, he sounds like a dufus when he speaks.

Finally !

Something we agree on.

And that doesnt make you question voting party because thats what you always do ?

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:48 pm

Nomad;1006572 wrote: Finally !

Something we agree on.

And that doesnt make you question voting party because thats what you always do ?

John Adams had an interesting view on political parties

Voting by political party is ridiculous, but in America there is not much choice. With few exceptions Democrats follow one philosophy and Republicans another. I have never had a choice where a Democrat did not represent those things that I disagree with, mainly more and more government and less and less respect for the individual and his personal potential and responsibility. I am not thrilled with Republicans of the 21st century either.

I guess the real truth is I am disgusted with all politicians and with the blind allegiance to political parties rather than on what is right.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:05 pm

Quin,

I guess the question that I have is when you came to the conclusion that Bush is the worst President in the history of the country? Wasn't it obvious in his first term?

I have no loyalty to either party but vote for the candidate that represents (or seems to) what I believe in and what I want.

I am sorry to say that this year, for the first time since I turned 18, I will not be voting. I don't feel good about McCain and his agreement with the Bush Whitehouse and Obama flat out scares the crap out of me.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:16 pm

LilacDragon;1016622 wrote: Quin,

I guess the question that I have is when you came to the conclusion that Bush is the worst President in the history of the country? Wasn't it obvious in his first term?

I have no loyalty to either party but vote for the candidate that represents (or seems to) what I believe in and what I want.

I am sorry to say that this year, for the first time since I turned 18, I will not be voting. I don't feel good about McCain and his agreement with the Bush Whitehouse and Obama flat out scares the crap out of me.

No, I don't think it was, at least not to me. I was disturbed by the gunslinger attitude and arrogance of many of those surrounding him, but as the spending increased, the failure to veto more and more spending and the alienation of the rest of the world I became more and more disillusioned.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:34 pm

LilacDragon;1016622 wrote: Quin,

I guess the question that I have is when you came to the conclusion that Bush is the worst President in the history of the country? Wasn't it obvious in his first term?

I have no loyalty to either party but vote for the candidate that represents (or seems to) what I believe in and what I want.

I am sorry to say that this year, for the first time since I turned 18, I will not be voting. I don't feel good about McCain and his agreement with the Bush Whitehouse and Obama flat out scares the crap out of me.
Don't not vote. They need to know people are angry, not apathetic.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:36 pm

spot;1004443 wrote: Damn right it will. The problem of the last two terms is that I spent my entire life giving the US government the benefit of the doubt, assuming it had an essential underlying goodwill toward the world at large, that its motives were pure even when it occasionally messed up its implementation, that there was a net benefit to humanity that America was powerful and influential.

The Bush White House has entirely destroyed those assumptions and I can't imagine my views will ever again get remotely close to what I've described. That my opinions have shifted so markedly is a minor matter. What counts is that I'm quite likely more representative of most people, the 95% who aren't Americans, than any other point of view.

It's no longer a question of making up ground and getting back to where you were, it's surviving as a first world nation. Fewer people want that to happen any longer than want the reverse: an America so neutered that it can never again do what it's done over the last eight years. You're too dangerous.

gmc, i have just reached the point with Bush that Spot did.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:41 pm

Accountable;1016656 wrote: Don't not vote. They need to know people are angry, not apathetic.

Honey - if I really thought they gave a rat's ass about my opinion - I would be first in line at the poll booth! As was shown to me at the Michigan Primary, my vote is the least important part of the system.

I have watched enough t.v. to see the ads by both Presidential candidates (and most of the local Congressional ones). I have yet to see an ad that actually talks about issues in any real manner, but have been inundated with trash talk and name calling.

Post by **spot** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:42 pm

LilacDragon;1016622 wrote: I am sorry to say that this year, for the first time since I turned 18, I will not be voting. I don't feel good about McCain and his agreement with the Bush Whitehouse and Obama flat out scares the crap out of me.That's fine. Turn up and write in a name you prefer. It's a legal vote. It'll make your point better than staying uninvolved.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:48 pm

spot;1005330 wrote: Can we think about that for a moment? The intention of the bail-out is to allow the banks to extend credit to the people again, something they've stopped doing because they had to tighten their credit availability in the current conditions. The reason it's so essential to make credit available again is to bring back consumer confidence and put retail sales back to their previous levels, thereby allowing all those Main Street businesses to trade.

Have I got that right? The bail-out is to re-ignite credit spending? That's it's function?

So where does " things have changed and it won't be back to business as usual once this is over" come from?

I can't see it changing either.

As soon as the bailout went through, consolodation loan companie's were re-making their old adverts. People will fall for them, consolodate their debts leaving them with false money to spend. They will then be gullible eough to go out and hit the plastic again or take out more plastic, thinking that the monthly amount they have saved consolidating their debts will pay the credit card bill.

I don't think it will.

The only one's to really benifit will be the consolodation companie's and the banks lending to idiots again.

The whole thing will start up again.

One way for it to stop would be for banks etc to get tough on greedy people who want to buy now pay later. get them to pay before the courts have to declare them bankrupt and find out they have no assets to take.

This will happen because therer are greedy people out there and always will be.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:50 pm

LilacDragon;1016670 wrote: Honey - if I really thought they gave a rat's ass about my opinion - I would be first in line at the poll booth! As was shown to me at the Michigan Primary, my vote is the least important part of the system.

I have watched enough t.v. to see the ads by both Presidential candidates (and most of the local Congressional ones). I have yet to see an ad that actually talks about issues in any real manner, but have been inundated with trash talk and name calling.

In Obama's case, your right -- and you can add postering and posing for the camera's to that.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:51 pm

spot;1004443 wrote: Damn right it will. The problem of the last two terms is that I spent my entire life giving the US government the benefit of the doubt, assuming it had an essential underlying goodwill toward the world at large, that its motives were pure even when it occasionally messed up its implementation, that there was a net benefit to humanity that America was powerful and influential.

The Bush White House has entirely destroyed those assumptions and I can't imagine my views will ever again get remotely close to what I've described. That my opinions have shifted so markedly is a minor matter. What counts is that I'm quite likely more representative of most people, the 95% who aren't Americans, than any other point of view.

It's no longer a question of making up ground and getting back to where you were, it's surviving as a first world nation. Fewer people want that to happen any longer than want the reverse: an America so neutered that it can never again do what it's done over the last eight years. You're too dangerous.

Point well taken spot although you are giving yourself a little (ok a lot) too much leniency on your statement about giving the good ol USA the benefit of the doubt. You run her down every chance you can. That aside, your last paragraph perks my attention in that the progressive left has worked for years to run this country back to a third world country and I think they just might get their wish sooner than later.

Flamethrower · Post by **Flamethrower** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:26 am

Bear in mind that the most damage was done in the last 2 years.....wait a minute.....Bush had HELP....the do-nothing yapping members of the DEMOCRAT controlled congress and senate! Where were these "white knights" when "Bush was messing things up"?

Look deeply here.....don't blame just GWB but rather ALL involved.

Pelosi...Reid...Dodd...Waters et.al.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:44 am

Flamethrower;1017265 wrote: Bear in mind that the most damage was done in the last 2 years.....wait a minute.....Bush had HELP....the do-nothing yapping members of the DEMOCRAT controlled congress and senate! Where were these "white knights" when "Bush was messing things up"?

Look deeply here.....don't blame just GWB but rather ALL involved.

Pelosi...Reid...Dodd...Waters et.al.
Yup. And Sheen didn't help the situation one bit.

Flamethrower · Post by **Flamethrower** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:52 am

Oh....I omitted one VERY guilty person in the entire economic mess. Barney Frank.

Just do a bit of research into Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac with respect to congressman Frank and the facts will scream at you.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:46 pm

Hoss;1016887 wrote: Martin Sheen.

That sure was a crap film. :wah:

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:21 am

BTS;1016688 wrote: Point well taken spot although you are giving yourself a little (ok a lot) too much leniency on your statement about giving the good ol USA the benefit of the doubt. You run her down every chance you can. That aside, your last paragraph perks my attention in that the progressive left has worked for years to run this country back to a third world country and I think they just might get their wish sooner than later.

Why do you think the progressive left has got anything to do with this?