700 Billion Dollar Bill Passed. Good or Bad?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:31 am

Now that it's passed, do you approve or disapprove?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:37 am

Not being american i shall not vote but this isn't bringing you closer to socialism or anything like it. You're being conned. The language of politics in the states seems so corrupted you don't even know what socialism is. If you're goingb to re-distribute wealth at least socialism makes a pretence of taking from the rich to give to the poor.

Found this site-know nothing about it's origins- probably left wing but it sums it up nicely.

http://www.corporatism.org/

symptomsof corporatism

* Fervent nationalism/patriotism - the country is more important than the individual!

* Public agencies being run like businesses, segregated and less accountable.

* Monopolies and Oligopolies

* Large corporations successfully lobbying Governments.

* The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

* Favours given to campaign contributors.

* People in power receiving perks or freebies from large corporations

* Limited sources of media.

* Governments pressuring other Governments to make legislation which benefits corporations, but not citizens

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:43 am

I selected approved but still sit the fence and will wait and see how long it takes to make a difference. Something had to be done but was it to little to late ??

My son-in-law lost his job yesterday he is a electrician not much building going on here, or contract being signed for work now or in the future. Hopefully with this he can go back to work.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:11 am

gmc;1008269 wrote: Not being american i shall not vote but this isn't bringing you closer to socialism or anything like it. You're being conned. The language of politics in the states seems so corrupted you don't even know what socialism is. If you're goingb to re-distribute wealth at least socialism makes a pretence of taking from the rich to give to the poor.

Found this site-know nothing about it's origins- probably left wing but it sums it up nicely.

http://www.corporatism.org/
Step out of your box for a moment, G. Who's conning us and what's the motive?

Just because it's not developing in textbook fashion doesn't mean it's not happening.

From www.dictionary.co.uk Socialism:

Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Power has been systemically and stystematically transferring from our states to centralized federal gov't for generations. The centralized gov't now owns controlling share in the world's largest insurance company. It has purchased a major share of the nation's real estate mortgages, and is moving toward or is already dictating rates and even adjusting principles of existing mortgages.

Centralized control by centralized gov't. I predict that energy is next.

Don't forget that we're dealing with a gov't who thinks it can force democracy on a theocratic people repressed by a US-sponsored dictatorship. Why would they not decide to impose socialism (calling it a different rose of course)?

southern yankee · Post by **southern yankee** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:12 am

My state voted NO. the same way i feel too.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:39 pm

Accountable;1008305 wrote: Step out of your box for a moment, G. Who's conning us and what's the motive?

Just because it's not developing in textbook fashion doesn't mean it's not happening.

From www.dictionary.co.uk Socialism:

Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Power has been systemically and stystematically transferring from our states to centralized federal gov't for generations. The centralized gov't now owns controlling share in the world's largest insurance company. It has purchased a major share of the nation's real estate mortgages, and is moving toward or is already dictating rates and even adjusting principles of existing mortgages.

Centralized control by centralized gov't. I predict that energy is next.

Don't forget that we're dealing with a gov't who thinks it can force democracy on a theocratic people repressed by a US-sponsored dictatorship. Why would they not decide to impose socialism (calling it a different rose of course)?

Interestingly enough your people's dictionary does not have the words fascist or fascism on the data base.

The key is perhaps in the second definition given

The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

Doesn't have communism either but at least gives a dictionary definition

Noun - A scheme of equalizing the social conditions of life; specifically, a scheme which contemplates the abolition of inequalities in the possession of property, as by distributing all wealth equally to all, or by holding all wealth in common for the equal use and advantage of all.

This isn't the proles taking control of the economy and the mean of production is it? Or indeed distributing wealth equally to all. Communism and fascism both end up meeting in the middle and are pretty miserable political systems to live under.

If this buy out was socialist in nature at least there would be the pretence about re-distributing the wealth for the benefit of all. It's not though is it? If you brought in universal healthcare that would be a socialist type policy where all have access to healthcare regardless of ability to pay-at the point where care was being received, that is. If you have universal access to university education regardless of ability to pay but based on intellectual ability that would be a socialist measure. If general motors workers took over running the corporation and did away with shareholders and distributed all profit to the workforce instead of shareholders that would be a socialist measure. If you take over power generation and do away with private shareholders and ran it for the benefit of consumers that would be socialism (whether it would work or not is another question)

State control isn't necessarily socialist in nature, sometimes it's state control for the benefit of an elite.

fascism

A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.

If you recall your history fascism was a response to communism as the ruling elite were **** scared there was going to be a revolution. In germany it morphed in to nazism but at it's heart is a ruling elite wanting to keep control of government. (that's why so many industrialists supported the nazis financially, including many jews ironically enough, by the ome they realised the mistake it was too late)

I'm Not suggesting the US is about to become a fascist state-I don't think americans would let it happen but you can sleepwalk in to it with the best of intentions and find you no longer have any real say in government. Next thing you know they will be suggesting only those with money get to vote or those with money get a greater say since they have to pay more in taxes.

When they set up the electoral college the purpose was to curtail the likelihood of a populist candidate getting in. Without proportional representation in the democratic primaries would Obama have got to be presidential candidate? (I don't know-so correct me if I'm wrong I read it somewhere that on simple first past the post he would have lost). How many presidents have won because they have won more electoral college seats but in reality have actually had a lesser percentage of the votes cast? Did GW Bush have the majority of votes cast in his favour?

Liberal democracy will win in the end I hope-mind you liberal and democracy seem to be words Americans seem convinced don't belong in the same sentence.

Whatever this buy out is socialism it is not. Hopefully you can read the above without getting offended.

Post by **spot** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:14 pm

What gmc said. It's nothing to do with socialism. Socialism benefits the masses.

I'm not voting either but you asked whether I was in favour or not. Yes, I'm in favour, I want the capitalist machine to break and this bill will go a long way to breaking the machine. Extended credit allows consumers to commit their future earnings into current survival, which is what the US has just bought another three or four years of. Pile on enough weight and things will finally reach a point where the mass of the people have no way back to solvency and you'll have no consumers left to oil the works. Capitalism is fuelled by mass consumption.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:37 pm

A lot of non American opinion here. I don't know about supporting it, because I really have no idea whether it will work or not, I imagine that it should do something to improve the fairly disasterous situation with the money supply, but whether it will fix the real problem, which is that the US, UK, and other economies are now based on buying and selling houses to each other other, and constructing all sorts of elaborate financial sandcastles based on unsustainable property prices, I sincerely doubt it.

As for the thing about socialism. Its not socialism to bail out the richest 5 percent of society by taking even more money off the 80 percent beneath them. Thats oligarchy or corporatist statism, your country is being run in the interests of your financial aristocracy (who of course are not called as such they simply control all access to capital, the media, and high office), who have cleverly gained such a stranglehold on fundamental public debate, that they can pass of this crap as somehow all being part of the meritocracy that these people claim they are part of.

Ask the 40 million people with no healthcare in the US, or people outside big cities that rely on public services (such as buses) to get by say to day, whether they live in a "Socialist Workers Republic", I think you will get your answer fairly sharpish. I am not saying that the Capitalist system is wrong, just that its absurd to portray this massive bailout of big business using public money as some sort of socialist conspiracy; its corporatist or even something like the National Socialists might have done. (i.e. Nazis, and I am not suggesting that America is now run by Nazis; just that the state doing everything to protect corporate and organized capital interests is very reminiscent of certain aspects of German economic policy in the 1930s), but its not socialist in the left-wing interpretation of that word.

I think that the long of short of the question is that, I wouldn't start here, and its a damning indictment of the financial sector and the US Administration that the country has been brought to this point, but you are here, and something positive needed to be done as the problem is an extremely serious one. Whether this is the answer, sorry just too big and complex a question for me to answer. What I will say is that I certainly hope its the right answer, as I don't want America to go down the tubes, more out of my own national self-interest than of huge feelings of altruism.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:43 pm

spot;1008425 wrote: What gmc said. It's nothing to do with socialism. Socialism benefits the masses.

I'm not voting either but you asked whether I was in favour or not. Yes, I'm in favour, I want the capitalist machine to break and this bill will go a long way to breaking the machine. Extended credit allows consumers to commit their future earnings into current survival, which is what the US has just bought another three or four years of. Pile on enough weight and things will finally reach a point where the mass of the people have no way back to solvency and you'll have no consumers left to oil the works. Capitalism is fuelled by mass consumption.

It's not going to break though is it? arguably the demented monetarist apes that got control have made a real mess of things and need a good spanking. But the end of capitalism? nah, But maybe now Americans will have a proper debate about what government is for and kick the **** out of those responsible at the polls.

In olden days druids would cut open chickens and look at the entrails deluding themselves they could see patterns , and people believed in them until they realised it was a load of cobblers. Nowadays we have economists with spreadsheets that delude themselves the same way and anyone that points out it's a load of rubbish is dismissed as being too thick to understand. Maybe now economists will be seen for what they are and not taken so seriously.

Never mind we've got GB and the prince of darkness on our side with the boy david waiting in the wings. oh joy.

Post by **spot** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:48 pm

Yes, it's going to break. Each year the average number of months net income needed to pay off personal debt increases in the US, that's one indicator I'd look at to see how close people are to panic.

I note that all the European Union countries - including the UK - voted tonight not to bail out banks any longer, unlike the US decision. Now we have both ways being used, one on each side of the Atlantic, we can watch how each unfolds.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:07 pm

This will give the American economy a chance to restart and even maybe heal itself. Taxpayers should get their money back - Aussies did when the Reserve Bank did a bail out here yonks ago. A few restraints on some of the extremes of capitalism won't hurt the ordinary people one bit either.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:34 pm

gmc;1008365 wrote: Interestingly enough your people's dictionary does not have the words fascist or fascism on the data base.

The key is perhaps in the second definition given

Doesn't have communism either but at least gives a dictionary definition

This isn't the proles taking control of the economy and the mean of production is it? Or indeed distributing wealth equally to all. Communism and fascism both end up meeting in the middle and are pretty miserable political systems to live under.

If this buy out was socialist in nature at least there would be the pretence about re-distributing the wealth for the benefit of all. It's not though is it? If you brought in universal healthcare that would be a socialist type policy where all have access to healthcare regardless of ability to pay-at the point where care was being received, that is. If you have universal access to university education regardless of ability to pay but based on intellectual ability that would be a socialist measure. If general motors workers took over running the corporation and did away with shareholders and distributed all profit to the workforce instead of shareholders that would be a socialist measure. If you take over power generation and do away with private shareholders and ran it for the benefit of consumers that would be socialism (whether it would work or not is another question)

State control isn't necessarily socialist in nature, sometimes it's state control for the benefit of an elite.

fascism

If you recall your history fascism was a response to communism as the ruling elite were **** scared there was going to be a revolution. In germany it morphed in to nazism but at it's heart is a ruling elite wanting to keep control of government. (that's why so many industrialists supported the nazis financially, including many jews ironically enough, by the ome they realised the mistake it was too late)

I'm Not suggesting the US is about to become a fascist state-I don't think americans would let it happen but you can sleepwalk in to it with the best of intentions and find you no longer have any real say in government. Next thing you know they will be suggesting only those with money get to vote or those with money get a greater say since they have to pay more in taxes.

When they set up the electoral college the purpose was to curtail the likelihood of a populist candidate getting in. Without proportional representation in the democratic primaries would Obama have got to be presidential candidate? (I don't know-so correct me if I'm wrong I read it somewhere that on simple first past the post he would have lost). How many presidents have won because they have won more electoral college seats but in reality have actually had a lesser percentage of the votes cast? Did GW Bush have the majority of votes cast in his favour?

Liberal democracy will win in the end I hope-mind you liberal and democracy seem to be words Americans seem convinced don't belong in the same sentence.

Whatever this buy out is socialism it is not. Hopefully you can read the above without getting offended.Argh! I don't have time to give this the attention it deserves, so I hope you'll forgive me. Redistribution of wealth hasn't happened yet because there hasn't been time since the takeover. It starts with forgiving the people's mortgage debts, in whole or in part. The next administration will nationalize the insurance company it bought. It won't fit neatly in your definition because the people would be incensed that their cushy riskless, permanently mediocre existence couldn't have its own name - but it will still be a welfare state, nanny state, wealth-leveling (among the masses) state. It will be socialist.

That is, unless I and people like me can wake others up! :yh_flag

You didn't tell me - Who's conning us (that this is socialism when it's really not) and what's the motive?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm

Accountable;1008574 wrote: Argh! I don't have time to give this the attention it deserves, so I hope you'll forgive me. Redistribution of wealth hasn't happened yet because there hasn't been time since the takeover. It starts with forgiving the people's mortgage debts, in whole or in part. The next administration will nationalize the insurance company it bought. It won't fit neatly in your definition because the people would be incensed that their cushy riskless, permanently mediocre existence couldn't have its own name - but it will still be a welfare state, nanny state, wealth-leveling (among the masses) state. It will be socialist.

That is, unless I and people like me can wake others up! :yh_flag

You didn't tell me - Who's conning us (that this is socialism when it's really not) and what's the motive?

From what I can see you're conning yourself.

This is so far from socialism that to mistake the two is silly - I think you misunderstand the term.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:55 pm

Bryn Mawr;1008578 wrote: From what I can see you're conning yourself.

This is so far from socialism that to mistake the two is silly - I think you misunderstand the term.
Are the semantics that important? I don't like what's happening. I don't think you like what's happening. Getting wrapped around the axel naming the thing is a distraction I personally can do without. Yes, I know I started it. :yh_frustr

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:55 pm

What are the effects of it being passed????

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:03 pm

Omni_Skittles;1008676 wrote: What are the effects of it being passed????

No one really knows for sure.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:03 pm

Omni_Skittles;1008676 wrote: What are the effects of it being passed????
Beyond stretching out the pain for years if not decades more than it would last otherwise, it sends the message that no risk is too great that the goverment will not come in and fix it. Risk is a thing of the past. Without risk there is no responsibility. Without responsibility there is no discipline. Without these negatives, there is no positive. True Freedom is lost, because good ol' Unc Sam will take care of everything.

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:08 pm

Accountable;1008686 wrote: Beyond stretching out the pain for years if not decades more than it would last otherwise, it sends the message that no risk is too great that the goverment will not come in and fix it. Risk is a thing of the past. Without risk there is no responsibility. Without responsibility there is no discipline. Without these negatives, there is no positive. True Freedom is lost, because good ol' Unc Sam will take care of everything.Do I sense sarcasm?

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:34 pm

Accountable;1008686 wrote: Beyond stretching out the pain for years if not decades more than it would last otherwise, it sends the message that no risk is too great that the goverment will not come in and fix it. Risk is a thing of the past. Without risk there is no responsibility. Without responsibility there is no discipline. Without these negatives, there is no positive. True Freedom is lost, because good ol' Unc Sam will take care of everything.

Accountable - you are an educated man. You're a teacher!!!! Please do open your mind to the commentaries of financial experts all over the world, and in your own country. In the current economic climate, America is not an island. What has happened in your country is flowing on to all of us. The bail out may be too late to save America from recession - but at least you still do have an economy - and hopefully it will now have a chance to start operating again.

Think of it this way - if a majority of your lawmakers - of both parties - support the bail out, they must seriously think there is something in it. When a current, extremely unpopular President makes such a proposal to not only his future successor but also to the future losing leader - and both men go along with him !!! - don't you seriously think there could be something in it???

Post by **spot** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:56 am

Accountable;1008582 wrote: Are the semantics that important?No, it's just a trigger-word that causes patriotic Americans to reach for their guns, there've been a lot of words like it over the years. The only good Arab is one that's dead. The only good commie is one that's dead. The only good gook is one that's dead. The only good Jap is one that's dead. Where did it start? The only good Native American is one that's dead? There's probably a Presidential Proclamation to that effect. Americans don't have a lot to do with compromise.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:01 am

Accountable;1008574 wrote: Argh! I don't have time to give this the attention it deserves, so I hope you'll forgive me. Redistribution of wealth hasn't happened yet because there hasn't been time since the takeover. It starts with forgiving the people's mortgage debts, in whole or in part. The next administration will nationalize the insurance company it bought. It won't fit neatly in your definition because the people would be incensed that their cushy riskless, permanently mediocre existence couldn't have its own name - but it will still be a welfare state, nanny state, wealth-leveling (among the masses) state. It will be socialist.

That is, unless I and people like me can wake others up! :yh_flag

You didn't tell me - Who's conning us (that this is socialism when it's really not) and what's the motive?

Sadly work gets in my way as well, this forum is a lot more fun that that believe me. apart from that the time difference gets in the way. it's 9.35 on Sunday morning as I post this.

accountable

Are the semantics that important? I don't like what's happening. I don't think you like what's happening. Getting wrapped around the axel naming the thing is a distraction I personally can do without. Yes, I know I started it

semantics matter a great deal, it can stultify political debate if words can be conflated with each other, take liberal/socialist/communist, it seems sometimes that many americans (judging by the posts here) think they are all basically he same yet they are vastly different. Big government is synonymous with socialism in the states yet big government exists in the US in your financial institutions, corporations and the tie in with government. Yet you can only see it as socialism not as anything else when it's anything but socialist.

To most europeans socialism is but one political strand in a tapestry of social change over the 400 years or so. We take bits that we think work and add in bits from elsewhere and see nothing mutually exclusive about any of it looking at the overall pattern and disposing of no colours. We know what fascism is as well and are wary of hubristic nationalism in our leaders.

If the people's mortgage debts are forgiven I will be surprised-the poor don't get away with not paying their debts or paying the consequences of spendthrift. They might be stupid enough not to see it coming but the truck still hits them.

I haven't looked at the text of the bill-is there provision to let people stay in their homes even if they can't pay?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:19 am

You know, I don't want to sound alarmist here, but I think that these debates on the meanings of the bill and all of that are going to sound fairly academic in the coming months. I really don't think most of us realize how serious and profound this thing is, I think that the main problem with the bailout is not that its the start of a new "socialist" America, I think that the problem is simply that its not going to solve the real problem that is there now, which is that the global financial system has essentially collapsed and that the full impact of that is now going to devastate our very credit-driven economies.

I think you should watch the markets on monday for an indication of where we are heading, and watch what is happening in Europe this week, we already have one of the largest German Banks, (Germany being the economic powerhouse of Europe) called Hypo Real Estate stating bluntly that its now on the verge of insolvency, if the pretty conservative and sober German banking system starts to fail then Europe's financial system will be thrown into complete disarray, and the US bailout won't do anything to solve that problem, which let me tell you is not an event that America will be able to ignore as you are just as dependent on European Prosperity as we are on American prosperity.

I don't know where all this is leading, but I know that its big, too big to see from the perspective of here and now, but its certainly going to trigger profound changes in all our lives from here on in. This is much worse than any of us could really have guessed even a couple of months ago, and its about to get a lot worse.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:30 am

AussiePam;1008763 wrote: Accountable - you are an educated man. You're a teacher!!!! Please do open your mind to the commentaries of financial experts all over the world, and in your own country. In the current economic climate, America is not an island. What has happened in your country is flowing on to all of us. The bail out may be too late to save America from recession - but at least you still do have an economy - and hopefully it will now have a chance to start operating again.

Think of it this way - if a majority of your lawmakers - of both parties - support the bail out, they must seriously think there is something in it. When a current, extremely unpopular President makes such a proposal to not only his future successor but also to the future losing leader - and both men go along with him !!! - don't you seriously think there could be something in it???
There's alot in it. An extra couple hundred billion in pork is in it, now that the Senate has had their go at it.

The extremely unpopular president and both candidates are all on the same page when it comes to growing our government larger and ever larger. Most in the legislature are, as well. That is not how it was designed to be. It is the opposite of how it was designed to be. It's unfortunate that the rest of the world has become over-dependent on our economy, but nothing lasts forever.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:31 am

Omni_Skittles;1008689 wrote: Do I sense sarcasm?

Only in the last sentence.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:53 am

Accountable;1008582 wrote: Are the semantics that important? I don't like what's happening. I don't think you like what's happening. Getting wrapped around the axel naming the thing is a distraction I personally can do without. Yes, I know I started it. :yh_frustr

You're right - when you're standing up to your neck in the cess pit it doesn't matter what you call it

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:01 am

gmc;1008839 wrote: To most europeans socialism is but one political strand in a tapestry of social change over the 400 years or so. We take bits that we think work and add in bits from elsewhere and see nothing mutually exclusive about any of it looking at the overall pattern and disposing of no colours. We know what fascism is as well and are wary of hubristic nationalism in our leaders.

If the people's mortgage debts are forgiven I will be surprised-the poor don't get away with not paying their debts or paying the consequences of spendthrift. They might be stupid enough not to see it coming but the truck still hits them.

I haven't looked at the text of the bill-is there provision to let people stay in their homes even if they can't pay?
Text of the Bill

From Pg 26

(c) CONSENT TO REASONABLE LOAN MODIFICATION REQUESTS.

—Upon any request arising under existing investment contracts, the Secretary shall consent, where appropriate, and considering net present value to the taxpayer, to reasonable requests for loss mitigation measures, including term extensions, rate reductions, principal write downs, increases in the proportion of loans within a trust or other structure allowed to be modified, or removal of other limitation on modifications.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:42 am

Pure capitalism in itself does not work, just look at the great depression where there was no government intervention when the collapse happened, and how did it recover? Government intervention, the creation of government ‘make work’ projects, WW2 etc.

In order for capitalism to work it relies on one very important factor, consumerism, they go hand in hand. For money to work, it needs to move. Money sitting still does nothing.

I reluctantly agree with the intervention of the US government, as well as the intervention of the Irish government here in Ireland. What I do not agree with is the lack of accountability in this situation.

Here in Ireland the CEO’s of our banks are walking away scott free after poor judgment in their business practices.

The head of the Bank of Ireland earned â‚¬23.5M in 4 years.

Anglo Irish: â‚¬21.4M since 2005

Allied Irish Bank: â‚¬11.4M in three years

Thay haven’t been fired, charged, investigated and continue running our banks after leading them to almost collapse. They should be forced to give back their bonuses from last year as they reported profits when in fact they were hiding their debts. They should be held personally accountable, investigated, and jailed if necessary.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:41 am

Accountable;1008930 wrote: Text of the Bill

From Pg 26

(c) CONSENT TO REASONABLE LOAN MODIFICATION REQUESTS.

—Upon any request arising under existing investment contracts, the Secretary shall consent, where appropriate, and considering net present value to the taxpayer, to reasonable requests for loss mitigation measures, including term extensions, rate reductions, principal write downs, increases in the proportion of loans within a trust or other structure allowed to be modified, or removal of other limitation on modifications.

What is reasonable? be interesting to see in practice. I'm rather cynical about plliticians.

posted by balbally

I don't know where all this is leading, but I know that its big, too big to see from the perspective of here and now, but its certainly going to trigger profound changes in all our lives from here on in. This is much worse than any of us could really have guessed even a couple of months ago, and its about to get a lot worse.

Inclined to agree with you there. Real wealth is in stock, what you can grow what you can make and sell. Lack of operating capital is going to hit those sectors first- no working overdraft for business, for farmers, small businesses will get hit first as an easy target. Our financial geniuses have been generating money out of thin air and selling it to each other in neat bundles tied up with imaginary string. A south sea bubble for the 21st century.

One good thing though is it will get more people a lot more interested in politics and what politicians do. less gullible in believing the likes of bush and blair. We have grown a culture where it is acceptable for politicians to lie, get caught, and then stay in office.

southern yankee · Post by **southern yankee** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:20 am

looking at how McCain voted i just feel. He has handed the election to Ali-Obama. CNN today was saying the same thing. No new taxes to the middle class. We all know better then that. I feel our Great grandchildren will be paying for this. maybe even their off spring. The light at the end of the tunnel. has blown out. don't know if it can be re lit or not. probably will never burn bright again.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:29 am

Accountable;1008901 wrote: There's alot in it. An extra couple hundred billion in pork is in it, now that the Senate has had their go at it.

The extremely unpopular president and both candidates are all on the same page when it comes to growing our government larger and ever larger. Most in the legislature are, as well. That is not how it was designed to be. It is the opposite of how it was designed to be. It's unfortunate that the rest of the world has become over-dependent on our economy, but nothing lasts forever.

I think we all realize how horribly we have allowed ourselves in the rest of the world to be exposed to this, and the upshot will be that it won't happen again. Your government is going to shrink significantly accountable, simply because foreigners are not going to bankroll the US state and its insane budget policies anymore, particularly given the amount of money that is now going to be thrown at propping up big business on wall street. However, the bit that government will continue to control will probably become a lot more draconian, because there is going to be a lot of social unrest coming along the way, and the the main task facing the state both over where you are, and here, is to remain in control of events on the ground.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:36 am

mikeinie;1008955 wrote: Pure capitalism in itself does not work, just look at the great depression where there was no government intervention when the collapse happened, and how did it recover? Government intervention, the creation of government ‘make work’ projects, WW2 etc.

In order for capitalism to work it relies on one very important factor, consumerism, they go hand in hand. For money to work, it needs to move. Money sitting still does nothing.

I reluctantly agree with the intervention of the US government, as well as the intervention of the Irish government here in Ireland. What I do not agree with is the lack of accountability in this situation.

Here in Ireland the CEO’s of our banks are walking away scott free after poor judgment in their business practices.

The head of the Bank of Ireland earned â‚¬23.5M in 4 years.

Anglo Irish: â‚¬21.4M since 2005

Allied Irish Bank: â‚¬11.4M in three years

Thay haven’t been fired, charged, investigated and continue running our banks after leading them to almost collapse. They should be forced to give back their bonuses from last year as they reported profits when in fact they were hiding their debts. They should be held personally accountable, investigated, and jailed if necessary.

I think, like you milkennie that given what was about to happen last monday our government had little choice. That said, I think that the long term consequences are going to be very significant, and of course should the situation outside Ireland contine to deteriorate, we are going to be in a serious political situation as well, as the State is now underwriting the housing market and the banking system. I am not sure what way to think about it until a couple of more weeks pass, then we will know whether we have saved ourselves, or destabilized the state completely. Its a given that the people in charge of the countries main banks need to be replaced, in fact everyone at the top of the financial system needs to be replaced, of course whether that will actually happen, or whether it becomes an academic question remains open to question.

Post by **spot** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:36 am

southern yankee;1009345 wrote: The light at the end of the tunnel. has blown out. don't know if it can be re lit or not. probably will never burn bright again.That has nothing to do with the already existing size of the US national debt? This intervention's around 7% of the already existing debt which future US taxation was already committed to paying off, it's minor. Why are you only suddenly noticing that residents in the US are committed to repaying loans which the US government has incurred on their behalf? Just so you know, each and every one of you owed slightly more than 12 months of your average US national income, before tax, including all the pre-school children and the centenarians (though their liability to pay it expires with them when they pass over). For every hundred dollars you already owed in additional taxes, you now owe an extra seven. It doesn't seem that much of a millstone, granted what you already had around your necks.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:40 am

gmc;1009030 wrote: What is reasonable? be interesting to see in practice. I'm rather cynical about plliticians.

posted by balbally

Inclined to agree with you there. Real wealth is in stock, what you can grow what you can make and sell. Lack of operating capital is going to hit those sectors first- no working overdraft for business, for farmers, small businesses will get hit first as an easy target. Our financial geniuses have been generating money out of thin air and selling it to each other in neat bundles tied up with imaginary string. A south sea bubble for the 21st century.

One good thing though is it will get more people a lot more interested in politics and what politicians do. less gullible in believing the likes of bush and blair. We have grown a culture where it is acceptable for politicians to lie, get caught, and then stay in office.

I agree that a lot more people are going to get interested in the more serious questions of society and politics from here on in, the downside is that maybe some of those people would not be the kind of people that you might want to get interested in politics.

The latest news from Europe is that today (Sunday) the German Government has had to guarentee all private deposites in German banks, effective immeadiately. This is similar to what happened in Ireland last weekend, and its been brought upon the Germans because they also now face a general collapse of their banking system and the State has decided to underwrite private deposits.

southern yankee · Post by **southern yankee** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:49 am

the american people were 9 to 1 against this bill.

anyone who was running for election. would have voted for what their voters feel. not because JOE BLOW congressmen voted for this. This will be the end for many in office when the election is less then a month away. I am suprised this was not settled until after the election.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:52 am

Galbally;1009351 wrote: I think we all realize how horribly we have allowed ourselves in the rest of the world to be exposed to this, and the upshot will be that it won't happen again. Your government is going to shrink significantly accountable, simply because foreigners are not going to bankroll the US state and its insane budget policies anymore, particularly given the amount of money that is now going to be thrown at propping up big business on wall street. However, the bit that government will continue to control will probably become a lot more draconian, because there is going to be a lot of social unrest coming along the way, and the the main task facing the state both over where you are, and here, is to remain in control of events on the ground.
That's all good news to me, except the draconian measures, but we can deal with that quickly enough.

Post by **spot** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:52 am

southern yankee;1009360 wrote: the american people were 9 to 1 against this bill.:mad:Is there a poll which quotes this figure?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:01 pm

My concern about the current bailout fiasco has to do with the sheer size of the U.S. government. The size alone does not lend it's self well to simplicity. & efficiency. A smaller country with a similar bailout has the ability to dodge and weave and adapt much more quickly. Our lumbering bureauacracy has great difficulty with a change of momentum. I for one have grave concerns for the future. With or without the bailout, I think we are headed for some very lean times. When I think about the Bailout Procedure I think of the old American saying "if you can't give em the facts, razzle dazzle them with bullshit".

Post by **spot** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:09 pm

Lon;1009365 wrote: With or without the bailout, I think we are headed for some very lean times.Is that something to deplore? Life is life whether it's lived on a tight belt or on a blowout. Which is healthier for body and soul?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:19 pm

spot;1009374 wrote: Is that something to deplore? Life is life whether it's lived on a tight belt or on a blowout. Which is healthier for body and soul?

For me Spot, no problem, I'm 74 and have always been able to adapt. My concern is for those that I saw yesterday at the mall, still shopping and charging like there is no tomorrow, and for things that they in all probability don't really need. I don't think these poor souls are adaptable. They, like the government, think they can charge their way out of misery.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:55 pm

Accountable;1008901 wrote: It's unfortunate that the rest of the world has become over-dependent on our economy, but nothing lasts forever.

Everything's interrelated these days. I don't usually comment on matters that are the business of some other country, but got involved in this thread because the current mess in America does affect all of us. But it affects America the most. Nothing lasts forever, as you say, but I hope America can now recover.

Post by **spot** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:14 pm

Jester;1009444 wrote: Ya'll have to handle this stuff for me, so make good decisions and do a good job.Send me your absentee proxy vote form - don't forget to sign it - and I promise to send it in. That way I'll be able to follow the campaigns on your behalf. You can't say fairer than that.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:18 pm

Southern Yankee

are you asking was this Bailout urgent?

"I'm surprised this was not settled until after the election".

Lon

I've asked the same question - How can these Families keep charging?

we recently were out to dinner - Families, Families at a Steak House and charging.

It's only the 2 of us, I'll tell ya, I never entered a Steak House when I was 6.

So, again I shake my head & ask - how, what are they thinking, and with the Holiday's around the corner - Charging will increase. :-5

Patsy

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:32 pm

Patsy Warnick;1009460 wrote: Southern Yankee

are you asking was this Bailout urgent?

"I'm surprised this was not settled until after the election".

Lon

I've asked the same question - How can these Families keep charging?

we recently were out to dinner - Families, Families at a Steak House and charging.

It's only the 2 of us, I'll tell ya, I never entered a Steak House when I was 6.

So, again I shake my head & ask - how, what are they thinking, and with the Holiday's around the corner - Charging will increase. :-5

Patsy
No problem. I'm sure they'll try to find a zero-interest card to roll their debts into so they can string the payments out.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:56 pm

Galbally;1009354 wrote: I think, like you milkennie that given what was about to happen last monday our government had little choice. That said, I think that the long term consequences are going to be very significant, and of course should the situation outside Ireland contine to deteriorate, we are going to be in a serious political situation as well, as the State is now underwriting the housing market and the banking system. I am not sure what way to think about it until a couple of more weeks pass, then we will know whether we have saved ourselves, or destabilized the state completely. Its a given that the people in charge of the countries main banks need to be replaced, in fact everyone at the top of the financial system needs to be replaced, of course whether that will actually happen, or whether it becomes an academic question remains open to question.

I just heard that and nearly fell out of my chair laughing. First Ireland was chastised for our action, and only yesterday GB, France, Spain and Germany met to discuss a common united approach to the issue, then as soon as one of Germany’s major banks are about to go under, they do what Ireland did the very next day after their meeting with the other large EU countries.

When it comes to a major bank in a country about to collapse, it is definitely every man for themselves. The only difference is that Germany has stated that they will hold those responsible accountable. I like that.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:45 pm

Accountable;1009361 wrote: That's all good news to me, except the draconian measures, but we can deal with that quickly enough.

Oh great, thinking about reaching for the 9mm already then I see.

I'd imagine you won't be the only one thinking about that kinda thing, thats kinda what I mean about social unrest.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:04 pm

mikeinie;1009509 wrote: I just heard that and nearly fell out of my chair laughing. First Ireland was chastised for our action, and only yesterday GB, France, Spain and Germany met to discuss a common united approach to the issue, then as soon as one of Germany’s major banks are about to go under, they do what Ireland did the very next day after their meeting with the other large EU countries.

When it comes to a major bank in a country about to collapse, it is definitely every man for themselves. The only difference is that Germany has stated that they will hold those responsible accountable. I like that.

Actually don't laugh, it kinda saves our arses, we are really out on a limb with this you realize? I am still not sure people realize how much is riding on the next few weeks for Ireland, we could end up finding ourselves in a failed state by 2010 if things went wrong, and I kid you not.

Its actually dizzying how quickly these events have overtaken us, and I don't think we in Europe have really felt the full impact yet at all, but that is coming next. Its real backs to the wall time now, and certainly you can forget about us getting out of this without there being serious economic hardship in Ireland now, and I mean serious. The country is probably in its biggest crisis since WWII (definetly since the Arms trial), the fact that the Germans have gone in for the same thing takes a lot of the heat off us politically in Europe, we have not made ourselves very popular lately.

This German move (particularly if its widely copied) should improve our rep with the rest of the member states as being the instigators of a new policy that has helped Europe, not a bunch of irresponsible "me feiners", and trust me, we are going to need all the friends we can get.

hoxtonchris · Post by **hoxtonchris** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:11 pm

yep its needed ,the bail outs im talking about,we may not like it ,taxpayers giving money to fat cats but at least here in englang we are used to it remember this,,,,,,,,,before toney blair was pm the interest rates in england were set by the government,they used it to control inflation,,yeh right,,,,,nothing to do with the fact that most if not all tories are very rich therefore each rise in interest rates sends their bank accounts ets soaring!!!!could that be why they put it up to 15 percent!!!!!could that be why labour took control and gave the bank of england sole responsibilty of future rate settings???aint rocket science is it!

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:32 pm

Accountable;1009361 wrote: That's all good news to me, except the draconian measures, but we can deal with that quickly enough.

The real danger of inaction at Federal Government level is that non-American interests will end up owning America. Maybe Middle Eastern conglomerates, maybe Indians, maybe Chinese, maybe Russians or all of the foregoing and their business partners, but with the international financial system working the way it does, you won't know who owns your land. There won't be an enemy in your street that you can shoot down, and no even vaguely clear target to nuke.

Tough times is coming. I'm going to tighten my belt and plant potatoes in my garden. And take a break from FG. Too depressing.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:15 pm

CARLA;1008278 wrote: I selected approved but still sit the fence and will wait and see how long it takes to make a difference. Something had to be done but was it to little to late ??

My son-in-law lost his job yesterday he is a electrician not much building going on here, or contract being signed for work now or in the future. Hopefully with this he can go back to work.

Can he set up on his own if he's has all the qualifications?

Now is the time to under-cut the businesses. Get some business cards done, invest in some leaflets, get the kids delivering them.

Cut his price but make sure he can meet all over-heads.

The man in the street will be cutting his own budget so will not be looking to the big companie's as much for work.

It will be a struggle but no more than being laid off.

Once he has done some good jobs -- word of mouth will do some of the rest.