Being excommunicated...

[minks]

Far Rider wrote: Being excommunicated.... I read an article by a non-denominational church about the doctrine of excommunicating individuals that have known sin or purposely defy this churches general doctinal statement...

I must say it made sense to me. And does have an impact on a congregation.

The article gave an example of a man who openly commited sin, enjoyed it, and tried to draw a number of folks in his church into it as well. He was confronted, he refused to repent on three seperate occasions... and he was written out of the membership of this church.



The main reason stated by the church council for ecxommunicating this man was so that anyone without the church would know he was not a memeber in good standing while he went his own way.

In affect it cut off his association with that church so that no body could blame the church for his error and sin.

It dawned on me that, as harsh as excommunication seems, its a protective measure to limit the harm to a churches/denominations reputation.

Im sure this might open up some conversation... hopefully not argument, but good discussion.


If you wanna belong you had better set a good example and display what the church stands for.

Much like being a sales person, you cant sell a product if ya don't believe in it.

[gmc]

Times change, in olden days it was a vicious method of social control as it used also to mean that those still in the church could not associate with him or her. It also condemned them to hell-assuming you believed in such a thing in the first place. In a secular society it is no big deal.

[SOJOURNER]

Far Rider wrote: Being excommunicated.... I read an article by a non-denominational church about the doctrine of excommunicating individuals that have known sin or purposely defy this churches general doctinal statement...

I must say it made sense to me. And does have an impact on a congregation.

The article gave an example of a man who openly commited sin, enjoyed it, and tried to draw a number of folks in his church into it as well. He was confronted, he refused to repent on three seperate occasions... and he was written out of the membership of this church.



The main reason stated by the church council for ecxommunicating this man was so that anyone without the church would know he was not a memeber in good standing while he went his own way.

In affect it cut off his association with that church so that no body could blame the church for his error and sin.

It dawned on me that, as harsh as excommunication seems, its a protective measure to limit the harm to a churches/denominations reputation.

Im sure this might open up some conversation... hopefully not argument, but good discussion.


That's an interesting interpretation.

I have always looked at excommunication like "shunning" in the Amish way of life. It's a way of control. If you are shut out of the life of all the people you know, you will want to return to it, toe the line and, hopefully, not get kicked out again.

Point to Ponder: If excommunication is to keep harm from a denomination's reputation, why aren't a lot more priest excommunicated?

[chonsigirl]

JAB wrote: Valid point. I think though that the Catholic Church reserves excommunication to those who willfully and publicly defy official church doctrine and teachings. Even then, it takes a long involved process before they start proceedings in order to give the 'sinner' a chance to repent and redeem themselves.

DC is the home of Catholic University. A few months ago, there was a story in the paper about how a Professor was barred from teaching anything pertaining to religious doctrine because some of the views he held and shared in class were contradictory to the official Church stance. This individual could still teach other courses like mathematics or chemistry but was not allowed to teach religious courses unless he agreed to toe the line.
Boy, that's good to know JAB! I put in an application to that University, and I don't think they would like my more evangelical beliefs.

[BabyRider]

I don't have a lot of tolerance for organized religion of any sort, but this point here:



Point to Ponder: If excommunication is to keep harm from a denomination's reputation, why aren't a lot more priest excommunicated?
makes LOADS of sense to me. The way you put it, Far, a member is excommunicated to protect the church, and not allow blame to lie with the church, correct? So how is it that more priests aren't excommunicated at the least, and prosecuted at worst? Sounds to me like this practice, and a few others are designed to protect the church, and the "flock" is left to fend for itself. The total opposite of what a church is supposed to be for, as far as I've been led to believe.

[SOJOURNER]

There is a Bible verse that says a person should do nothing which would hinder another to come into a relationship with God.

To follow this, we really need to be aware of the person we present to people so that we do not lead them astray and then are held accountable for that deed.

[BabyRider]

Far Rider wrote: Oops, BR let me clear somthing up, properly it is designed to portect the flock from those that would prey upon them.
Hmm...from what I've seen and read, it's their own clergy and leaders they need to be protected from.



I probably shouldn't even be involved in this discussion at all. My view of any religion, small or otherwise, is not exactly unbiased. It is equal opportunity, though: I despise them all the same.



Sorry....I'm out. :yh_blush

[Clint]

I have a little different view of this. I think “excommunication” is a too often abused tool that really doesn’t have a Biblical leg to stand on. The most commonly used reference in the Bible is Matt. 18: 15-17. Those three verses are taken out of context with everything else Jesus was saying in the whole of Matt. 18. In Matt. 18 Jesus made a very strong case for restoration, love and forgiveness. The verse excommunicators love is verse 17 where Jesus says to let the unrepentant sinner be as a Tax Collector and a Gentile to the one he sinned against. The excommunicators forget that Matthew himself was a Tax Collector and that Jesus was well known for associating with Gentiles. Additionally, I read 19 translations and only one of the 19 said in verse 15; “if your brother sins”, the rest said; “if your brother sins against you”.

No one has the power to remove one of God’s children from God’s flock. However, I’ve seen Him do it. We have to show discernment and we certainly don’t follow those who assume leadership roles while they continue in sinful lifestyles. Jesus said in Matt. 18 that it would be better for one who creates stumbling blocks to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around his neck. It is the leaders He will deal with and He will deal with them harshly.

[Accountable]

I understand booting somebody who harms the integrity & continuity of the group. Call it excommunicating, dropping, or firing. I excommunicated somebody from my new team just Saturday. It sends several messages:

* It says "Our team and the spirit of that team is important.

* It rewards those who adopt and adapt by removing the cancer. Those that remain are generally greatful, which raises morale.

* It tells everyone, especially the one who refuses to conform, that there are limits to the group's patience.



Heck [edited], didn't God excommunicate Lucifer?

[Clint]

Accountable wrote: I understand booting somebody who harms the integrity & continuity of the group. Call it excommunicating, dropping, or firing. I excommunicated somebody from my new team just Saturday. It sends several messages:

* It says "Our team and the spirit of that team is important.

* It rewards those who adopt and adapt by removing the cancer. Those that remain are generally greatful, which raises morale.

* It tells everyone, especially the one who refuses to conform, that there are limits to the group's patience.



Heck [edited], didn't God excommunicate Lucifer?
There is a difference between a "team" and a "family". I agree that a team can't abide a cancer in its midst. A family has to go to work on healing. God can remove anyone He pleases. That's part of His job description.

[BabyRider]

Far Rider wrote: BR I value your view very much in this discussion. It brings up an important point...



If your view against religion was influenced negatively by someone that should not be associated with a religious group, maybe you would not hold the view you have?



My point is... if the religions guarded thier membership better and let those lead who have the right abilities and qualifications to lead, then maybe the church might not look so bad to you?
I suppose it's possible, but probably not likely. While the leaders that end up being in the positions they are in does have a negative affect on my opinion of chuches, it's also the hypocritical attitude that goes along with any religion. The "christian attitude" that seems to go right down the crapper when a stiff breeze blows. The acceptance, love, patience and generosity of spirit that is preached is very seldom practiced and that kind of hypocrisy goes against my nature. I believe a person's walk with God is a highly personal one and I can worship and talk to God just as easily as many so-called christians without ever having to set foot in a church or be told how and when I should worship.

[BabyRider]

Far Rider wrote: BR! hehehe.... good then! I think its important for the church to hear that we are hypocritical. All of us are at one time or another. I have been. It honestly bugs me, but I can tell you when I am a hypocrite, its ME, not God being that way.



I'd like to be judged according to how I am mostly, wish some folks just didnt meet me the day I was a hypocrite, but knew me all my life! But thats just not reality.



Thanks for coming back here and posting.
I was stumped at the comment, "it's important for the church to hear that WE are hypocritical..."

You refer to yourself as if you are the church, when that's not what I mean at all. When I did attend church on a regular basis and listened to what was preached and extolled and considered righteous and then saw the same people on a daily basis in their everyday lives acting NOTHING like what they professed to be at church, it began to make me a tad disillusioned.

People seem to go to church on their Sabbath and act the way they think the church or God expects them to act that day and then the rest of the week be however they want. I talk to God 10 times more than church-going "Christians" ever do. And it means something to me, it's not just a ceremony or a weekly tradition to me.

It's a tough position to explain, I just don't have the tolerance for church or people thinking their way of talking to God is better than mine. Why does it have to be better at all? Why can't it just be different, and still right?

[Clint]

BR you have a more level head than most. I don't know how many people I've talked to who refuse to believe in God because of the way some Christian treated them. They turn the Christian into God and reject them both in one package.

You can't get a group of people together around any ideal without someone who is acting getting into the mix. In my case, I sometimes feel like a hypocrite myself. I know what I should be doing and thinking and I end up doing just the opposite. We can't stop gathering around what we believe just because of the human condition. If we do, the hypocrites among us and within us will win.

[Accountable]

Clint, could you share your view of why going to church is so important? I stopped going years ago because a mix of not agreeing with the catholic-influenced interpretation of God's word and not feeling as if I "belonged" in any given church I've attended.

[Clint]

Accountable wrote: Clint, could you share your view of why going to church is so important? I stopped going years ago because a mix of not agreeing with the catholic-influenced interpretation of God's word and not feeling as if I "belonged" in any given church I've attended.
I have had a life long struggle with “church”. It is a mess. It is also something I believe we should be a part of. When Jesus was teaching in Matt. 18 He indicated the church was important. I was baptized by sprinkling in the Lutheran Church when I was 8. I was confirmed in the Lutheran Church when I was 12. I’ve been a Baptist and a Nazarene since then. I have gained spiritually from all three denominations and experiences.

I think church is important because we need the support of other believers to stay strong. Jesus said that if one wonders from the flock we are to bring the wonderer back and celebrate when we do. He said that the one who is separated is vulnerable to the “roaming lion”. It is true. People who don’t participate with the church are more likely to spiral into a troubled state.

There is lot of confusion about what “church” is. The word itself merely means a body of believers or a group of people getting together for anything. During the time Jesus was teaching on earth it was, and had been people coming together for the practice of Judaism. Jesus did absolutely nothing to change that. He did however, do a lot to get the false teachings and practices out of Judaism. One of His pet peeves was the use of the law to get an advantage by some over others. He taught that the law was to be applied in spirit and not by the letter as the leaders of the day were requiring of others but not themselves.

Jesus was an observant Jew and so were the Apostles. The “church” as we know it today is the result of Roman rulers trying to deal with a reenergized church after the ascension of Christ. Constantine for one, imposed his belief in a sun god on the people. They adopted some of what he imposed to save their lives. The church today is a mixture of Judaism and a bunch of man made stuff that has no place in our beliefs or practices.

I think one of the first things that made me scratch my head about “church” was the use of the word “church” for both the building and the people. How confusing. Judaism uses the word "congregation" or "church" for the people and "synagogue" for the building. As I have learned more about our heritage in Judaism I have seen more and more of these confusing churchisms put to rest.

I worship with other Messianic Believers. Some of us are Jews and many aren’t. We have our problems as any group of people does when they get together and we have some practices that arguably don’t belong. Where I worship we love and accept our fellow believers in Jesus no matter what denomination they are a part of. We believe there are two kinds of people. There are those who believe and there are those who don’t. If there wasn’t a Messianic congregation for me to be a part of, I would be in a modern day church and making the best of it.

We had a Sukkah party at our house last Friday night to celebrate Sukkot. It was a blast. People brought food, wine, and other refreshments. We ate, drank, danced and one guy even brought his shofar and blew it so the neighbors wouldn’t go to bed too early.

Church can and should be fun. It should be something you look forward to doing. If it is a drag, I think it is time to do some research and find a group of people who are like minded and Christ minded to associate with. I look forward to the Shabbot as I am positive Jesus and his followers did. It is a time of rest and worship like I never experienced before. We sing, dance (practiced and choreographed), we praise and we learn. In my opinion it is good. It is what resonates with my spirit. It is very different from what others experience but it works for me and my wife.

Being separated from other believers is not a good thing. I believe it is dangerous. Being joined with believers who don’t practice their faith as you believe your faith should be practiced is a difficult thing. There are enough different styles of worship and approaches to faith in Jesus these days that I think everyone should have a group of believers they are a part of.

[Valerie100]

My mother was 20-years-old when she was about to marry my father. She belonged to the Catholic Church. At that time, the Catholic Church didn't believe in divorce. My father was divorced from a previous marriage. A priest told my mother that she couldn't marry my father and remain a part of the Catholic faith. She was told that since he was divorced that he was still considered married in the eyes of God and the Church. My mother was ex-communicated because she decided to marry my father. My mom became Presbyterian and found a great church to raise her family in. My parents were married for 46 years, until my father passed away three years ago. This just goes to show that sometimes you have to do the right thing for yourself, irregardless of whether it pleases anyone else or not.

[BabyRider]

Valerie100 wrote: My mother was 20-years-old when she was about to marry my father. She belonged to the Catholic Church. At that time, the Catholic Church didn't believe in divorce. My father was divorced from a previous marriage. A priest told my mother that she couldn't marry my father and remain a part of the Catholic faith. She was told that since he was divorced that he was still considered married in the eyes of God and the Church. My mother was ex-communicated because she decided to marry my father. My mom became Presbyterian and found a great church to raise her family in. My parents were married for 46 years, until my father passed away three years ago. This just goes to show that sometimes you have to do the right thing for yourself, irregardless of whether it pleases anyone else or not.
Bingo. There ya go. Right there.

Who are these other people to say that that man or that woman isn't worthy of the church? Isn't there a passage in the bible about "Whoever among you is without sin, cast the first stone"?? I will never, EVER accept another person, of any religion, standing, or station in life to tell me that they are any better for any reason, and ESPECIALLY not because of the church they attend or their belief in God. Let's leave the judging to God. I'm pretty sure he'd be the only one with the right to do so.

[BTS]

Far Rider wrote: Being excommunicated....


Can I ask what church ex-ed you............?

Don't care about the particulars....

I was excommunicated once too....

[BTS]

BabyRider wrote: Bingo. Who are these other people to say that that man or that woman isn't worthy of the church? Isn't there a passage in the bible about "Whoever among you is without sin, cast the first stone"??


OR...............

Judge NOT and yee shall not be judged............

Think this is the same difference?

[Accountable]

Clint wrote: [...]

Church can and should be fun. It should be something you look forward to doing. If it is a drag, I think it is time to do some research and find a group of people who are like minded and Christ minded to associate with. I look forward to the Shabbot as I am positive Jesus and his followers did. It is a time of rest and worship like I never experienced before. We sing, dance (practiced and choreographed), we praise and we learn. In my opinion it is good. It is what resonates with my spirit. It is very different from what others experience but it works for me and my wife.



Being separated from other believers is not a good thing. I believe it is dangerous. Being joined with believers who don’t practice their faith as you believe your faith should be practiced is a difficult thing. There are enough different styles of worship and approaches to faith in Jesus these days that I think everyone should have a group of believers they are a part of.
Maybe I just haven't found a church that resonates with me. :yh_sigh



Thanks, Clint. That helps alot.

[BTS]

Far Rider wrote: BTS I was asked to leave a church once, I left without argument, I didnt make any waves and I didnt try to take anybody with me.

I attended a non denominational church that I found out later was associated wih the Assemblies of God Church, I do not believe in the speaking of tongues for our day and age, when it occured in front of me out of the proper biblical context. I walked out and left for home. A few days later I was asked by one of the board member about it, I gave him my bilical reasons fro not supporting the incident, he became angry and asked that I not return to the church anymore. I never went back.

That is the closest Ive come to being excommunicated.
Thanks Far............. I think I would have done the same.

My Grandmother told a story of her Irish born Grandmother who was a devout Catholic and in the late 1800 hundreds the Catholic fathers would travel from ranch to ranch and ask for thithes. She always gave what she could.

One tough year he came and she told him she had nothing for him this year........

WELL he looks around and says...........

"Hmmm Mrs. Palmer that milk cow looks mighty fine to me".............

She told him to get off her ranch and be-Jesus if she was going to take food out of her 13 childrens mouth.....

That was the end of religion on that side of my family.....