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Russian civilian deaths during WW 2 were 19 million, Chinese civilian deaths were 9 million, 2.5 million Polish civilians, 2 million German civilians. These deaths were a direct result of bombing and shelling and the after effects. Atomic weapons just do the job quicker and have no more long term enviormental effect than what exists in the German cities of Cologne, Essen, Berlin etc., today. Hiroshima today is alive and well, as is Nagasaki.

THE EARTH ABIDES

The atomic bomb is an evil weapon . The people who dropped the bomb should have been up for war crimes ...if it had been Japan who dropped it or Germany they would have been.

All those human beings obliterated in split seconds ,and all the suffering afterwards for years and years is terrible.

Was it necessary? was there really no other solution?

Some say it was necessary and saved more lives than it took if we'd had to do a land invasion .while others say Japan were on the verge of total collapse . Also what about a demonstration of its power ? and was it really necessary to drop a second one on Nagasaki ?

What is it though except 'collateral damage' . and just foreigners too....../sarcasm

Some nasty statistics on this, I am just posting the link if you wants to pull up the deaths statistics. (never could find a definition for hemoclysm, it is the author's self-defined word) But what is the solution to such numbers of people dying? The U.N. is not a workable solution, it is not stopping ongoing aggression in numerous areas of the world, or the oppression of basic human rights.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

XeroGirl wrote: The atomic bomb is an evil weapon .


An evil weapon for an evil people. The Japanese committed murder, rape, and atrocities too numerous to mention in China and to our POWs. They got what was coming to them...in spades. So end all brutal totalitarian dictatorships.

The people who dropped the bomb should have been up for war crimes


Sorry... only the losers in the war get charged with war crimes.

...if it had been Japan who dropped it or Germany they would have been.


ROFLMAO! Get some perspective young lady! If the Germans had gotten the atomic bomb first (and they nearly did!) you and all your relatives would be at the bottom of a massive ash-pit, burned alive in furnaces or gassed. Who would've been left if Hitler had gotten the bomb? Nobody without blonde hair and blue eyes, that's for sure, so who would have charged them?

Right there is the fundamental difference between America dn the rest of the world. We had the bomb and the military, and no one else had it We could have taken over the entire planet right then if we'd wanted to. But we didn't. Why? Because we're the good guys.

All those human beings obliterated in split seconds ,and all the suffering afterwards for years and years is terrible.


Yes, it was terrible, the bombs dropping on the ships where the sleeping sailors lay, unaware. The devastation of the unsuspecting city. Oh... I thought you were talking about Pearl Harbor.

Was it necessary? was there really no other solution?


It was estimated that the number of American dead would be close to 1,000,000 if we had invaded the Japanese homeland. They had armed every man, woman, and child and heavily fortified everything. Which would you rather have...60,000 enemy dead or 1,000,000 American dead? Again, get some perspective.

and was it really necessary to drop a second one on Nagasaki ?


No, it wouldn't have been necessary if the Japanese Government had surrendered, but they didn't. In a fight, when you hit an enemy, if they don't give up, you hit them again until you win.

What about a display of power?


Just what do you think Hiroshima was? :rolleyes:

and just foreigners too....../sarcasm


Foreigners who responsible for the Bataan Death March. You seem like one of those "oh the poor Japanese didn't deserve it" people. Let's get this straight, that empire was an evil blight on humanity. Left unchecked, you would have seen massacres that would have made the Holocaust look like a day in the wading pool.

If you don't believe me, ask some of the survivors of China and the Solomon Islands.

The Japanese got exactly what they deserved.

just my opinion.not the same as yours .But im allowed it . Not sure I need to laughed at though guess im too soft for this place should keep my mouth shut and not try and say my opinion. Not sure its as simple as The good guys and The bad guys. If it was a movie maybe .

This is real life though and at the minute The Good Guys are invading other countries .

bye

XeroGirl wrote: just my opinion.not the same as yours .But im allowed it .


Well of course you are! I just tried to point out that you're not considering the larger picture of history. You look at Hiroshima as if it happened on a Spring Day in Iowa.

Not sure I need to laughed at


I wsn't laughing at you, personally, just the illogic of your opinion.

though guess im too soft for this place


If you think you are too soft, then you're right, posting in highly volitile topics like "Hiroshima" is a bad idea. In political threads (especially around here) people hit hard and heavy and don't back off their opinions. (See BR's post "I say what I feel, I mean what I say, and other people's opinions be damned!")

should keep my mouth shut and not try and say my opinion.


Absolutely not. A forum is about expressing your opinion, but you'd better be ready to take some flak, and back up your opinion. Don't wear your heart on your sleeve around here, unless you only plan on entering the uncontroversial threads like "Bothwell's".

Not sure its as simple as The good guys and The bad guys.


And maybe it's not. I tend to oversimplify. But right is right, and wrong is wrong, and I've convinced myself I know which is which.

This is real life though and at the minute The Good Guys are invading other countries .


Weell, there you go! That's a pretty controversial opinion. Why not start a thread on it? Scrat and Spot will support your side right off the bat. But beware. Don't get hurt if others express opposite opinions.

bye


Here's hoping you show some assertiveness.

Hiroshima Today

The Earth does indeed Abide



http://www.japan-101.com/photos/files/1 ... ay_002.jpg

http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/kids/K ... e/17_1.jpg

There were more people killed in the firestorms started in Tokyo than horoshima and Nagasaki. It wasn't the deaths but the shock of the kind of power demonstrated that persuaded the Japanese surrender. The second one was necessary to make the point that more would come. If we had had to invade there would have been even more casualties.

WW2 was total war with nothing nice about it. If you go to war then the intention is to destroy your enemy the most effective way you can. Do you really think any soldier at the time who was not now going to have to invade Japan was sorry for the Japanese.

Just remember these nice Japanese were the same ones that were testing biological weapons on the Chinese and would have used them if they could have. Would be nice if they finally faced up to the facts of what was done in their name.

Hitler came within a hair's breadth of having nuclear weapons if he could have done the ballistic missiles dropped on England would have carried nuclear warheads. One of the last acts of the german high command was to sent Uranium to the Japanese luckily the German sub carrying the stuff surrendered before getting there. We were lucky in having better nuclear scientists.

XeroGirl wrote: The atomic bomb is an evil weapon . The people who dropped the bomb should have been up for war crimes ...if it had been Japan who dropped it or Germany they would have been.



All those human beings obliterated in split seconds ,and all the suffering afterwards for years and years is terrible.



Was it necessary? was there really no other solution?



Some say it was necessary and saved more lives than it took if we'd had to do a land invasion .while others say Japan were on the verge of total collapse . Also what about a demonstration of its power ? and was it really necessary to drop a second one on Nagasaki ?



What is it though except 'collateral damage' . and just foreigners too....../sarcasm


Here try this point of view of a veteran of the times, Market Observer, Richard Russell who flew over 30 combat missions in Europe in a B-25. Today, politically speaking, he is a fiscal conservative, but quite a bit left of center on a host of other issues...not that this is bad, nor am I making judgement one way or the other. That's not my point. I am just sick and tired of "revisionist" historians (so called) joining the "blame America" gang for everything America does, and has done in the past. The commentary below is from a guy who WAS THERE!!







The bomb resulted in 140,000 Japanese dead. And the belated arguments go on as to whether the US should have dropped the bomb. At the time, the war was over in Europe. The US had suffered massive casualties and with tens of thousands dead. The war in the Pacific continued, and it was horrendous. The US had taken 27,000 casualties in seizing the 8 square miles of Iwo Jima from a garrison of 21,000 Japanese troops. The US learned that the Japanese don't surrender, they were willing to die almost to the last man. Roughly 6,000 Japanese stood ready (all volunteers) to fly the certain-death Kamikaze missions. The US had taken 49,000 casualties to capture Okinawa during three unbelievable months of fighting. Supporting the Okinawa battle, the US navy lost or suffered damage to 350 ships, while 10,000 US sailors had been wounded or killed.



Meanwhile, the US military was working on plans to attack Japan itself. At the time Japan had 4 million well-trained soldiers, 2.4 million of them stationed in Japan. The US military believed an attack on Japan could cost as many as 250,000 casualties with at least 60,000 US dead. Some estimated a lot more, possibly as many as a million US casualties and dead.



I had just returned from combat in Europe and was scheduled to transfer from the B-25 Mitchell bomber to the faster Douglas A-26 "Invader" bomber. I was on a 30-day leave, following which I would be heading for the Pacific. My thought was -- "I got through Europe, but is it possible that I could get out alive from the Pacific too? Could any bombardier be that lucky?" I consoled my frightened parents by telling them what a great plane the A-26 was, "much faster and safer" than the B-25 (I loved the B-25, it could take a fearful beating and return home).



And then the news of Hiroshima and Nagasaki came out and shocked the world, including the US military, who had no hint of the atomic bomb. Against the wishes of the Japanese military (who would have fought to the bitter end, they didn't believe in surrender), Japan's emperor announced that Japan would surrender.



Every guy in the military that I knew was elated. And millions of American mothers and fathers looked to the heavens and thanked God that their kids were still alive. I went down to Time Square, and it was a total mad house. People were kissing each other, hugging each other, kissing strangers -- some were crying, others were drinking, hysteria reigned. I doubt if anything like that had ever been seen in New York before or since.



A few weeks later I got my discharge papers. Next day I went down to Washington Square and registered at NYU under the GI Bill.



Should we have dropped the bomb, or should we have invaded Japan the hard way? Don't even ask me that question. When I hear young people or academics arguing that to drop the bomb was inhuman and immoral I simply ask them where they were in 1945. I didn't know where they were, but I damn well knew where they weren't. They weren't in the military in that fateful year 1945.

can you not edit your own posts on here?

If a mod or someone can kindly delete my post I would be greatful thankyou

XeroGirl wrote: can you not edit your own posts on here?



If a mod or someone can kindly delete my post I would be greatful thankyou


There is a edit button to the right of your post. I am not sure if being a non supporter if you can edit or not but I think you can........

Hope that helps:yh_flag