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As many know, Tom Cruise recently went on a rambling, in-your-face rant regarding psychiatry, depression, anti-depressants, and mental health in general. he posed that 'there's no such thing as a chemical imbalance', which is flat out silly, but he used his bully-pulpit of celebrity to condemn another celebrity - Brooke Shields - who wrote a book about her experience with postpartum depression and how anti-depressants saved her from killing herself.



Mr. Cruise is a vocal scientologist - scientology being a bizarre cult that thrives on having celebrity adherents (along with cruise, nicole kidman, kirstie alley,john travolta, priscilla and lisa marie presley, etc). it was started by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard.



it strikes me as ironic that a palpably extroverted, incredibly successful since his teenage years, handsome, and wealthy fellow like tom cruise would take it upon himself to condemn those who have suffered with depression, when i would hazard he's never suffered from it a day in his life.



just for the hell of it, i've created a one page website, in tribute - and in mocking - of the stance scientology has on depression - http://scientology.anastrophe.com .



whee!

Anastrophe , all i can say is your website, while complex, is BRILLIANT! :yh_laugh

There is, I suspect, a level of meaning at which "It's all in your head!" is an accurate statement. I can imagine circumstances in which it would be a positive starting-off point toward improvement. As an entire analysis, I would agree that it lacks depth. I'm not totally happy with my earlier comment on the article, but that's true of every post I ever make.

On balance, it's arguable that psychiatry has done more harm to people who get caught up as patients than it's done good. I know there are damaged people who need treatment, I know there can be a measure of respite, but I doubt the arguments relating to mechanisms. To some extent I doubt the goodwill of some of the practitioners. I think making a good living has far more impact on treatment within the profession than the expectation of a beneficial outcome.

Anastrophe, I work for a mental health charity in the uk and the website sometimes has quite interesting reports on various aspects of mental health plus details of other written literature. Being new, I'm not sure if I can post links here but if I can and you'd like it, please let me know.

My own view is that psychiatry is a very inexact branch of medicine and that the professionals do not always know the causes of any mental illness, let alone the right treatment. And so I cringe when a celebrity pretends s/he does. Such views can do damage to and undermine the confidence of people who are using the services and who, quite rightly, know better than anyone what works for them.

theia

theia, you're welcome to post links to information.

brambling, i don't know scientology's ideology. i know that they are violently against psychiatry and any use of 'brain' drugs, whether recreational or therapeutic. there's tons of information on the web, though it's generally polarized - either wildly for scientology, or wildly against it.



i'm also a person who has suffered with "real" depression. one of the things that rubs me the wrong way is how the word "depression" has been co-opted to mean 'the blues, moody, feeling down, unhappy' - which completely trivializes something that is so far from being 'moody' as to be laughable - if it weren't so serious.



while i can't know of course, i do believe i'd have killed myself years ago if not for anti-depressants. depression feeds on itself, and can rapidly take one down the vortex. it is *not* a trivial condition.



it has always bothered me that i have to take a drug just to bring myself up to the level of *not* loathing myself - but not even necessarily 'happy' or 'cheerful'. but having been near the bottom of that vortex - and on a couple of occasions, having run out of the anti-depressants - i willingly take them rather than go there again.



and amazingly enough, vitamins and exercise don't cure it, as mr. cruise, and a certain poster here on FG who will remain nameless, contend.

It's funny how people who use mind altering drugs-the most familiar being alcohol-find it hard to accept that chemical imbalance can cause mental illness.

I've had to live with someone suffering from depression, (well i didn't have to but I did guess I realised something was actually wrong) now we have worked out the cause it's like a totally new person.

I also know two people where doctors reckon it was cannabis use that sparked it off.

www.mind.org.uk

National Mind is mainly a campaigning organisation but the local Mind associations around the country all run different projects.

I too have experienced depression alongside the dreaded anxiety states and that is the main reason I chose to work in mental health. I can't expect to know how another person is feeling but I can have some kind of idea about the hell they might be experiencing.

*peeks in*

have suffered bouts of depression, still do on occasion, take anti depressents when i have to, they help

some damage will always be there, loose connections in brain, induced i believe by a wild youth (lots of mind altering drugs) dident just go to the edge, jumped right off, no-one gets to be that high without consequences

probably fair to say if youve never had depression you just dont understand it, best leaving it to those of us who do mr cruise

I was thinking about his statements this morning.

His thoughts are perpetuated by his individual experiences (as is with all of us)

His error I think arises when he failed to realize his reality doesnt nessacarily fit into all the molds of humanity.

My world is a result of my experiences and the methods I use, that Ive found are suitable and acceptable for me. Luckily they fit into accepted standards of society.

I think when you fail to allow for others perceptions, that it just might not be possible for me to understand that because another has had seperate life experiences than my own doesnt make them any less valid.

His lack of understanding and tolerance for a plethora of human conditions speaks volumes about his growth as a thinking human being but also as his ability to act as a compassionate man.

His statements would also raise questions in my mind concerning the intent of his "religion" ?

Tolerance is the key issue facing the world today in all forms regarding everything from politics to religions to the ability for the allowance that even though we may not see eye to eye it doesnt exclude you as my brother or my sister. Were all traveling the Earth in the same time frame and even though our paths may be different ones our beginnings and endings are identical. If I allow you your freedom in mind, thought and spirit and you pay me the same sensible respect then we will travel together well and as companions.

Maybe Im making a mountain out of a molehill but his intolerance is just the tip of the iceberg in ignorance and ignorance is what keeps us all from being united.

thought this may be of interest to this thread

By BROOKE SHIELDS

Published: July 1, 2005

London

I WAS hoping it wouldn't come to this, but after Tom Cruise's interview with Matt Lauer on the NBC show "Today" last week, I feel compelled to speak not just for myself but also for the hundreds of thousands of women who have suffered from postpartum depression. While Mr. Cruise says that Mr. Lauer and I do not "understand the history of psychiatry," I'm going to take a wild guess and say that Mr. Cruise has never suffered from postpartum depression.

Postpartum depression is caused by the hormonal shifts that occur after childbirth. During pregnancy, a woman's level of estrogen and progesterone greatly increases; then, in the first 24 hours after childbirth, the amount of these hormones rapidly drops to normal, nonpregnant levels. This change in hormone levels can lead to reactions that range from restlessness and irritability to feelings of sadness and hopelessness.

I never thought I would have postpartum depression. After two years of trying to conceive and several attempts at in vitro fertilization, I thought I would be overjoyed when my daughter, Rowan Francis, was born in the spring of 2003. But instead I felt completely overwhelmed. This baby was a stranger to me. I didn't know what to do with her. I didn't feel at all joyful. I attributed feelings of doom to simple fatigue and figured that they would eventually go away. But they didn't; in fact, they got worse.

I couldn't bear the sound of Rowan crying, and I dreaded the moments my husband would bring her to me. I wanted her to disappear. I wanted to disappear. At my lowest points, I thought of swallowing a bottle of pills or jumping out the window of my apartment.

I couldn't believe it when my doctor told me that I was suffering from postpartum depression and gave me a prescription for the antidepressant Paxil. I wasn't thrilled to be taking drugs. In fact, I prematurely stopped taking them and had a relapse that almost led me to drive my car into a wall with Rowan in the backseat. But the drugs, along with weekly therapy sessions, are what saved me - and my family.

Since writing about my experiences with the disease, I have been approached by many women who have told me their stories and thanked me for opening up about a topic that is often not discussed because of fear, shame or lack of support and information. Experts estimate that one in 10 women suffer, usually in silence, with this treatable disease. We are living in an era of so-called family values, yet because almost all of the postnatal focus is on the baby, mothers are overlooked and left behind to endure what can be very dark times.

And comments like those made by Tom Cruise are a disservice to mothers everywhere. To suggest that I was wrong to take drugs to deal with my depression, and that instead I should have taken vitamins and exercised shows an utter lack of understanding about postpartum depression and childbirth in general.

If any good can come of Mr. Cruise's ridiculous rant, let's hope that it gives much-needed attention to a serious disease. Perhaps now is the time to call on doctors, particularly obstetricians and pediatricians, to screen for postpartum depression. After all, during the first three months after childbirth, you see a pediatrician at least three times. While pediatricians are trained to take care of children, it would make sense for them to talk with new mothers, ask questions and inform them of the symptoms and treatment should they show signs of postpartum depression.

In a strange way, it was comforting to me when my obstetrician told me that my feelings of extreme despair and my suicidal thoughts were directly tied to a biochemical shift in my body. Once we admit that postpartum is a serious medical condition, then the treatment becomes more available and socially acceptable. With a doctor's care, I have since tapered off the medication, but without it, I wouldn't have become the loving parent I am today.

So, there you have it. It's not the history of psychiatry, but it is my history, personal and real.

Brooke Shields, the author of "Down Came the Rain: My Journey Through Postpartum Depression," is starring in the musical "Chicago" in London.

Well done Brooke.

Ive lived with depression most of my life & only in the last 3 yrs have I found relief.

My anxiety coupled with a rather long bout with alcohol through sobriety and with the help of Paxil for the 1st in my life I actually enjoy being me. Exercise & vitamins were not the essential ingredient for my mental, spiritual and general well being although common sense dictates exrecise & nutrition are beneficial chemical imbalances will do a serious number on your demeanor if not attended to.

look at the last line, that was a crafted PR release. brooke shields didn't write that. i am certain PPD exists. but i am also sick of people like the mother in texas, andrea nutjob yates and her stupid lying husband, who drowned her 5 children and used it as an excuse. get a grip ladies. you had a baby. if you think you want to kill it, give it to someone else.

valid points lc

thanks Buttercup. i'm a cynic. i just don't buy it. so after i gave birth to a 12 pound baby i cried a bit. BFD. i know a female who took a gun to her twin sons' heads. boo hoo, PPD made her do it. but i saw those babies with their brains blown out. quite a scene. screw her. she can hang.

Your right lady cop the bottom line is the bottom line yet concerning Cruises statements regarding the validity of the condition indicates his naivety.

i just dont know how you can do that job hun, glad we have people like you to protect us, i'd be a blubbering wreck in that situation

That would certainly do it wouldnt it ?

buttercup wrote: i just dont know how you can do that job hun, glad we have people like you to protect us, i'd be a blubbering wreck in that situationi went on that helicopter/lifeflight. when we went in the house we discovered her dead drunk and two babies with their brains blown out all over the walls. one had been sleeping when sbot, one ran and she chased him down. nope, nothing can get to me anymore. i don't want to hear the twinkie defense or the paxil defense, or any of it. and it's not because i am some knee-jerk cop, i believe in our system of justice. i taught law at our academy. i am simply done with bullshit.

Our system of justice has a few flaws, namely Michael Jackson & OJ Simpson.

If you can afford a high priced lawyer your chances of beating the system increase dramatically !

lady cop wrote: i went on that helicopter/lifeflight. when we went in the house we discovered her dead drunk and two babies with their brains blown out all over the walls. one had been sleeping when sbot, one ran and she chased him down. nope, nothing can get to me anymore. i don't want to hear the twinkie defense or the paxil defense, or any of it. and it's not because i am some knee-jerk cop, i believe in our system of justice. i taught law at our academy. i am simply done with bullshit.
Lady Cop, you remind me of a friend of mine who went from college to Vietnam as a corpsman with the Marines. After that he became a physician’s assistant then, finally had a career as paramedic. He saw so much, it hardened him toward everybody including his kids. He didn’t have sympathy for anyone. Everything was a result of personal choices and you had just better learn to live with it. Life isn’t that cut and dried but it helps people in your line of work get through the day.

I just found out I have an autoimmune disease. I have pushed myself hard for the past twelve years, thinking I was I was worn out just just because I'm lazy and that everybody experienced continuous pain. It finally caused me to lose vision in my left eye and I had a mild stroke. It is a relief to know that my lack of energy wasn’t my attitude and the pain wasn’t in my head. I am looking for a natural remedy because I don’t like the side effects of prednisone. In spite of the constant pain, I don’t take any prescription drugs at this time. If the natural remedies don’t work I will take a prescription.

I think it a balance issue. I don’t think we can accept what doctors feed us without examining it and looking for alternatives. If, though, we can’t come up with something better, we should listen to the doctors.

I’m headed to the coast for a couple of days. See you all later.

far rider i feel so much for your friend, its so cruel that all that happened to him in such a short space of time, he must be such a strong person to have survived it, at least he has supportive frinds like yourself, thats probably what keeps him going

clint - quote - Lady Cop, you remind me of a friend of mine who went from college to Vietnam as a corpsman with the Marines. After that he became a physician’s assistant then, finally had a career as paramedic. He saw so much, it hardened him toward everybody including his kids. He didn’t have sympathy for anyone. Everything was a result of personal choices and you had just better learn to live with it. Life isn’t that cut and dried but it helps people in your line of work get through the day

its not fair or true to say that just because of the job people do that they dont have sympathy, lc has been more than helpful/sympathetic to me when i was having trouble & i know she would help anyone both here on the board & out there on the street, i suffer from depression myself & even i can see the points she is making, they are valid

im just thankfull that her & others like her are out there dealing with the scum of society, i know i couldent

i dont think she's hardened just realistic, i respect what she says, many people do use depression as a scape goat, in all my years of suffering from this illness i have never wanted to kill my children, thats not depression thats something else alltogether

Tom Cruise should keep his comments to himself, blow heart, self righteous pompous(sp) big mouth.. I don't care what your religious beliefs are, that doesn't give you the right to insult, or degrade others because they don't think like you.

GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE MR. CRUISE "YOU AIN'T SO MUCKIN FUTCH"

Clint I feel for you, it's a rough up hill battle to make physicians listen to you... Pain is totally subjective to the Medical world. If they can't see the pain your not in pain.. ie: broken leg etc.. I broke my neck in 1987 I was disabled for 10 year, I finally got most of myself back and went back to work. That doesn't mean every flippin day I'm not in pain, I am, and like you I'm tired of doctor's telling me it's all in my head, Well you idiot it's not in my head the flippin pain is in my neck. I took charge of myself and developed methods that allow me to be mostly functional without taking drugs, mind you if I need them I take them pronto tonto.. Suffering is not my game, and doctors need to stop making people suffer.

AS I LEARNED IN MY 5 YEARS IN PAIN MANAGEMENT IF YOUR TRULY IN PAIN YOU CAN NEVER BECOME ADDICTED, PAIN IS PAIN.. I TAKE DRUG AS NEEDED SOME DAYS MORE THAN OTHERS

As for the mentally ill, or depressed they are the most missunderstood portion of our population period. They aren't taken care, they aren't believed and the crisis is just growing... I hope this bring to light what a stigma it is to have a mental problem of anykind in this country... the old saying "it mind of matter" doesn't work for a schizophrenic now does it.

SHAME ON US FOR TREATING THE MENTALLY ILL ON ANY LEVELS SO BADLY..

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.

WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"

I like this..............every second counts !

i'm very appreciative of the kind words, and i don't think Clint meant anything in a negative way. believe me, i still shed tears! i think being a woman in this field lends a softness that may not otherwise be present. however, one must develop a wall of defense to remain effective. it can appear to be a hardness.

lady cop wrote: i'm very appreciative of the kind words, and i don't think Clint meant anything in a negative way. believe me, i still shed tears! i think being a woman in this field lends a softness that may not otherwise be present. however, one must develop a wall of defense to remain effective. it can appear to be a hardness.
For certain Lady Cop, you are right, I meant no harm. I only wanted to point out how seeing what you see day in and day out can result in a way of looking at things that you probably wouldn’t have otherwise. I used to remind my friend frequently that his hard line views were a result if his working environment.

Another friend of mine, an ex-Marine, retired after 30 years in law enforcement. When we first met he was still working and had that protective shield up all the time. After he retired, I was there when the shield melted. He is a totally different person today.

I guess I was just trying to remind you that the people you deal with have stuff in their lives that cause them to react the way they do, just like you do. Maybe I stepped over the line. I didn’t mean to.

Clint, what you said makes perfect sense to me! i knew you meant no harm. i have to hide my soft side, but it's there. when i first became a cop my FTO...field training officer...used to laugh at me because i was too kind. well that didn't last long! but who a person really is does not go away. i have written people up for unnecessary cruelty. some people , a very few, become cops because they are bullies. and most because they want to do some good.

I have treated kids who chewed through their clothes, growled, bit, hit, and clenched their jaws so tightly I thought their teeth would explode. These are just a few of the behaviors I have seen. I would love for Tom to come and teach one student behaving in this manner...with 25 other students in the room.

The ADHD/ADD/ODD student's behavior does not simply impact his/her educational process, but the process of many other students. THANK GOD FOR MEDICINE!!!! I have seen it work wonders. I would certainly walk a day in Tom's shoes...if he would trade with me.

i went on that helicopter/lifeflight. when we went in the house we discovered her dead drunk and two babies with their brains blown out all over the walls. one had been sleeping when sbot, one ran and she chased him down. nope, nothing can get to me anymore. i don't want to hear the twinkie defense or the paxil defense, or any of it. and it's not because i am some knee-jerk cop, i believe in our system of justice. i taught law at our academy. i am simply done with bullshit.

The absurd, irrelevant technicalties that keep spinning the criminals back out through the revolving door must frustrate and anger you and your crew beyond belief, LC. And it may sound funny, but those reactions certainly DO mean you care about proper justice being served. You never cease to amaze me, LC. I tip my "weekend getaway" cap to you!!

hotsauce wrote: I have treated kids who chewed through their clothes, growled, bit, hit, and clenched their jaws so tightly I thought their teeth would explode. These are just a few of the behaviors I have seen. I would love for Tom to come and teach one student behaving in this manner...with 25 other students in the room.

The ADHD/ADD/ODD student's behavior does not simply impact his/her educational process, but the process of many other students. THANK GOD FOR MEDICINE!!!! I have seen it work wonders. I would certainly walk a day in Tom's shoes...if he would trade with me.
I know this might sound corny but where were all the ADD and ADHD kids when I was in school? I didn’t ask about “ODD” because I was the odd one. Why have things changed so much?

When I started school one teacher (no assistant) had the first and second grade in one room. Later, I was in a school where grades 1-8 were in two rooms. There were two teachers and one of them was the principal. How did they do it? These were schools in rural communities and money was real scarce.

What has changed schools so much in the past 30 years?

Has anyone here actually read "Dianetics"? It merely uses a time-proven psychological concept, self-fulfilling prophecy, to teach people how to program their own behavior. You call it, "The Power of Positive Thinking" and that's not a bad thing.

From the home website of Scientology: http://www.scientology.org/en_US/religion/index.html

What is Scientology?

The aims of Scientology are a world without insanity, without criminals, without war, where the able can prosper and where Man is free to rise to greater heights.

And if you were to ask any Scientologist they would tell you it is a practical religion, with practical answers ” tools that can be applied to achieve greater awareness and purpose in the here and now.

Or, as we say it, when you have the answers to life's questions ” there is virtually no part of existence it cannot be applied to for the betterment of life itself.

What people need are real solutions, real tools to deal with and effectively overcome human problems.

Every one of us has experienced it.

Think back yourself and you'll remember when you tried to help a grieving loved one, a struggling child, a friend overcome by addiction.

And where you have failed, it's only because you lacked effective answers to accomplish what you desired.

I don't see what you're so worked up about, Anastrophe, these guys seem to be more valuable and practical than most of the Catholic Religion.

Clint wrote: I know this might sound corny but where were all the ADD and ADHD kids when I was in school? I didn’t ask about “ODD” because I was the odd one. Why have things changed so much?



When I started school one teacher (no assistant) had the first and second grade in one room. Later, I was in a school where grades 1-8 were in two rooms. There were two teachers and one of them was the principal. How did they do it? These were schools in rural communities and money was real scarce.



What has changed schools so much in the past 30 years?
is it the schools that have changed? or is it the students that have changed?





and i'm not talking about kids looking out the window too much.

Clint wrote: What has changed schools so much in the past 30 years?That's as relevant a question as any in the thread, Clint. Television content, for one thing. Blockbuster videos with gore and an inherent lack of respect for the way you were raised. Computer games that award points for successful in-your-face attitude. All commercial influences, all corrosive, all avoidable by any responsible parent, all able to reduce a child's ability to resist the mindsets under discussion.

Jives wrote: ... these guys seem to be more valuable and practical than most of the Catholic Religion. :oThe Catholics aren't so set on bleeding their adherents of their worldly possessions. Scientology is at heart a profit center for its principals, a money magnet.

spot wrote: That's as relevant a question as any in the thread, Clint. Television content, for one thing. Blockbuster videos with gore and an inherent lack of respect for the way you were raised. Computer games that award points for successful in-your-face attitude. All commercial influences, all corrosive, all avoidable by any responsible parent, all able to reduce a child's ability to resist the mindsets under discussion.


This could be a thread of its own, so I'll start it.

Scientology

Actually, jives, you're right on the mark about Dianetics. My ex-roommate had about forty copies of it!!, and it was common sense sort of axioms and suggestions, not any different than the top 40 self-help books at your corner bookstore.

But.....there IS more to it than meets the eye. Scratch below the surface, for example go to the above link, and you will learn about the VERY cultish group that Scientology is. Not all who are into it become "zombies" or something, but there are many nasty tactics and methods used by them. My ex-roomie and his stepfather were right into this crap - they use an "e-meter" to get rid of your "negative engrams" on your way to becoming a "clear". Then you become a second level "clear", so on and so on.. It's true - and neither of them ever worked more than a week every five months, they were both so damned lazy (and let's just say a little "odd"). But hey! They were becoming "clear"!! :wah:

[QUOTE=Far RiderIt angers me when celebrities think their fame intitles them to hold their opinions over that of a common person. Tom Cruise is a washed up has been who continues to be a legend in his own mind.

He should keep his mouth shut.




That's it right there, 'nuff said!

For some reason this country thinks that movie stars, even though those that speak out the most never graduated high school or college, seem to know it all. Just because they get on TV and spout out a bunch of jargon we should rally around them and hold them up on their pedestal. We must keep in mind that the last job they had was waiting tables or parading around in animal suits.

Frankly, I think Mr. Cruise is suffering from some sort of manic handicap. So, he has a girlfriend, big deal, so does my next door neighbors kid and you don't see him jumping up and down on a couch! In the immortal words of that great Alabama football coach Bear Bryant on making it to the end zone and making a touchdown, "Act like you've been there before." In other words, don't make a monkey of yourself and jump up and down and do cartwheels, throw kisses heavenward or dance. Give it a little dignity and act like you've done it a thousand times before.

I saw the interview and in my opinion, he never backed up any of his reasoning with good solid facts, just name calling. He is sooo last decade!

Yeah, it's kind of too bad that Scientologists took L. Ron Hubbard's book and turned it into a twisted, black shadow of it's former self. I know a lot about L. Ron Hubbard, and believe me, he never intended to set himself up as a Messiah and is probably spinning in his grave right now to see what they have done with his work.

L. Ron was one of the original Masters of Science Fiction from the Golden Age of the 40's and 50's. A contemporary of Isaac Asimov.

Anastrophe has a point about the difference between real depression and just having a bad week. I've had bad weeks before - every time I miscarried - but I was never can't get out of bed depressed for any length of time. I can't even pretend to understand what true depression feels like so I can't judge what might be best for people concerning drug therapies. If it works - it works.

Onehuman being: I read your thoughts on Tom Cruise and tolereance of our fellow citizens and I wholeheartedly agree with every word you said. I have strong opinions on how we should treat our countrymen and although I can't put them down as eloquently as you have doesn't mean I don't believe them.

As far as mental health being a farce as TC kind of put it, is sad as our family has suffered through a relative who is manic depressive. While she stays on her meds, she is fine but when she is off them she makes our lives a living hell. The next time she goes off them I'm going to buy her a ticket to his front door. After a week with her I want him to stand up and say there is no mental illness.

I thinks they are all nots. And if kirsty Ally is in the religion why is on Jenny craig. She should pray to whatever god they worship and pray for the pounds to be off. They are nuts!

But each to their own.

I just read an article about all the perks that Cruise receives as a "special" member - it would knock your socks off!! No wonder he flogs it in the media so much!!

er...does anyone give a shite?