ForumGarden

Germany is an official disaster zone.

In the recent past it was hailed as the 'Strong Man of Europe' with its robust economic growth rates, low employment, low inflation, a strong currency and a standard of living envied by other European states.

So what happened?

Well - in a word - 'Socialism'

The German people, lulled into a false sense of security by their seemingly endless run of prosperity, elected a left-wing Chancellor to run the country.

The result has been disasterous if predictable.

They now suffer with an economy in recession, high inflation, labor strikes, unemployment at all time highs (+9%) and a reduced standard of living.

They even gave up their prized currency - the Deutschmark- for the uncertain Euro.

The German population are reported to be 'sick and tired' of their country's flirtation with socialism and want a return, not surprisingly, to their former #1 position in Europe.

They are particularly fed up with seeing their leader - Chancellor Schroeder - acting as a sidekick to President Chirac of France.

Now, I thought that I read somewhere on this forum about a person who flies the German flag, says they are an American citizen, tried to go to Iraq to fight with the terrorists and complained about the U.S.A.

But I must have been dreaming.

No one could be that screwed up - could they?

So baling out East Germany has nothing to do with this? Germany lost it's competitive edge just as we had when the german economy was booming, the world is changing all the time, economies wax and wane. Nowadays economists use spreadsheets and computer models to work out what is going to happen, whereas in ancient times priests would cut open chickens and study the entrails to do the same thing. Both are equally accurate.

In a ne w global economy how will the US react to hinese companies taking over American ones? Not trying to wind you up, that was actually a serious question-looks like a chonese oil company may be taking over an american one.

I agree that economies go up and down with changing times but surely the German example is much to do with a quite dramatic change in political philosophy there?

If you compare the present performances of the two economies it tells a tale.



USA Germany

GDP (last quarter) 3.6% zero

Unemployment 5.9% 9.1%

Inflation (annualized) 2.9% 6.0%

Bringing East Germany back in was a substantial cost of course but that was several years ago now and their situation seems to be getting worse rather than better.

What I hear on the European front is that the Deutschmark is about to return. And as the Germans are proudly saying ''We shall Rise Again''

posted by philadelphia eagle

I agree that economies go up and down with changing times but surely the German example is much to do with a quite dramatic change in political philosophy there?

If you compare the present performances of the two economies it tells a tale.



USA Germany

GDP (last quarter) 3.6% zero

Unemployment 5.9% 9.1%

Inflation (annualized) 2.9% 6.0%

Bringing East Germany back in was a substantial cost of course but that was several years ago now and their situation seems to be getting worse rather than better.


Not entirely-it's more akin to the way the british economy was in the 70,s Germany restructured after the war and ended uop with a competitive age with all new factories etc, we limped on with what we had and an attitude that the world owed us a living (sweeping generalisation here) since then we have wiped out all the old indistries and rebuilt and now have an edge whereas gernmany are building factoreies in eastern europe that outperform the older ones at home. Skoda etc.

East germany has cost a lot more than they expected higher taxation less going in to the economy.

Same story with japan-set out to rebuild a devastated economy ended up outperforming the victors but now having to face competition from their near neighbours like China.

It would be a mistake to assume that things will decline the way they have in the past, most european economies are a lot more diverse than they used to be with most economic growth coming from small to medium growth enterprises. Pundits still look at the big numbers

I reckon the american economy is about to go through similar throes-you've already seen it with some of the heavy industries like steel, textiles and computer manufacture will take similar hits and more and more companies will locate in cheaper countries.

Have a look round Walmart. How much is actually made in the US nowadays?

Like many in the UK used to do they criticise countries like China rather than the people who buy the goods and the companies that move abroad for cheap labour.

Protectionist policies ultimately stop companies facing up to reality and facing competition. That in essence is the debate in europe within the EU.

In a european context left wing does does not equate to socialism in quite the way as it seems to in america. Actually it gets confusing-in one post someone was prattling on about liberal socialists which is an oxymoron.

Even social democrats no longer want to see state control of everything but the basic from each according to his means to each according to his needs sentiment is still there, but no one likes scroungers. In the UK for instance politicians muck about with the basic principle of the NHS at their peril.

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: Now, I thought that I read somewhere on this forum about a person who flies the German flag, says they are an American citizen, tried to go to Iraq to fight with the terrorists and complained about the U.S.A.

But I must have been dreaming.

No one could be that screwed up - could they?


ROFL.....subtle, Eagle, verrrrry subtle.

I find it fascinating that Germany could take such a terrible dive so quickly, I thought they were still a manufacturing and engineering powerhouse.

I also find it slightly chilling, as I know their propensity to fall into inconism and cult worship when times are bad and they have their self-confidence broken.

Ah, the truth does sometimes hurt, TW.

Let me answer your questions as best I can.

1. Yes, I am American and will fly my country's flag on the Fourth. Will you?

2. Yes, I have visited Germany on several occasions and have a number of German aquaintances whom I like and admire. Most of my travel there involved doing business in Hamburg and the Norddeutschland region but I also have pleasant memories (if slightly hazy) of the Octoberfest in Meunchen. (Please excuse the spelling - no 'umlaut' on my keyboard).

3. Without wishing to boast or play at 'oneupmanship' I would say that I'm probably a little more widely traveled than yourself. Due to the nature of my work, I can list 81 countries that I've either visited or lived in.

I have friends in many countries all over the world. None of them would consider living in one country, taking its hospitality and benefits and then flying another nation's flag. They would consider that action to be extremly ungrateful if not rude.

I don't know whether you are American or German. The people I know in both countries are polite and well-mannered.

So in essence, America is the 'Land of the Free', insofar as you 'do as your supposed to?'

He's an Iggles fan TW, they tend to be a touch sensitive.

BuckTurgidson wrote: He's an Iggles fan TW, they tend to be a touch sensitive.


Just wait until the next Superbowl!

posted by jives

ROFL.....subtle, Eagle, verrrrry subtle.

I find it fascinating that Germany could take such a terrible dive so quickly, I thought they were still a manufacturing and engineering powerhouse.

I also find it slightly chilling, as I know their propensity to fall into inconism and cult worship when times are bad and they have their self-confidence broken


Not that quick you could not see it coming. You have similar problems in the US with the decline in traditional heavy industries such as steel and coal, also you. car manufacturers have the same problem of overcapacity as european ones, even mighty ford and GM are struggling, protecting your car industry from foreign imports will just ensure they remain uncompetitive.

The US blocked steel imports to protect their steel industry and got GW votes in Pennsylvania, arguably it did little to help those bits of US industry that bought steel having to pay higher prices for steel than their competitors

There is a shift to new industries and new ways of working which is painful to those imbedded in old style industries. Ask those in the big industrial cities what they think about the decline of US industry. Socialism has nothing to do with it.

Think what you are doing just now as you read this. Twenty years ago the internet was a science fiction fantasy now more and more people use it and businesses are springing off the back of it and having knock on effects. Those who can't cope with change tend to try and hold it back.

Enonomic change, development and innovation seldom come from govt, economic pundits know little and couldn't run a shop never mind an industry. You can always tell a company is in deep **** when they appoint an accountant as chief executive who more often than not acts to preserve what there is rather than being innovative, Business schools produce accountants not entrpreneurs. Most of the IT innovation and new business has come from people following an interest not trying to make money per se.

Forget the socialism angle it's irrelevant and a red herring, have a look at US industry you will see surprising parallels.

Alvin Toffler, The Third Wave, an American sociologist I suspect you have probably read, The american centric attitude I find irritating but then I'm not american

http://www.skypoint.com/members/mfinley/toffler.htm

If you have time-assuming you have not already seen it ( I am conscious of the erudition amongst forum posters despite the odd numpty showing up) have a look for war and anti war by the same author.

http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/inde ... t_id=10145

The trouble with most americans is that they so busy contemplating their own belly buttons they sometimes don't notice the rest of the world is doing something else. Also when looking at socialism in a european context socialism you need to appreciate it has also changed and moved with the times, socialism does not equate to communism. State ownership of everything is no longer on the agenda, but social responsibility is.

It's a bit like analysing somebody's wardrobe by labels-this one good, that one bad, it tells you very little about the person if you can't look beyond the label.

Tell you what. How about you stop assuming all europeans are left wing american hating communists ruining their economies with socialist policies imposed on us by nasty government that have taken away our guns, and We stop assuming you are right wing gun-toting christian fundamentalist nutters convinced everybody hates them out to start a new empire.

As to the flags-well none of you are scots so you have my sympathy and understanding.

posted by TW2005

Maybe the 5th year's the charm for the Eagles.


I'm confused. Were they not a folk group with hits such as Hotel California? have they reformed or something? :yh_rotfl