CHINA

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CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

Our government has given a travel warning to Australians. If we travel to China Australians are at risk of being "arbitrarily detained". Basically we'll be taken as diplomatic hostages by the Chinese government. Considering they already have an Australian and two Canadians detained in response to the heiwei phone thingy it doesn't surprise me in the least.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-07/ ... a/12431134
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Re: CHINA

Post by Bryn Mawr »

magentaflame wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:34 pm
Our government has given a travel warning to Australians. If we travel to China Australians are at risk of being "arbitrarily detained". Basically we'll be taken as diplomatic hostages by the Chinese government. Considering they already have an Australian and two Canadians detained in response to the heiwei phone thingy it doesn't surprise me in the least.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-07/ ... a/12431134
Sadam Husain used to do things like that, for a supposedly civilised country to use people like political pawns is way out of order.
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

Tit for tat perhaps, given the arbitrary detention the US and Canada have used on Chinese citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou for instance. A total scandal from day 1 and deliberate provocation.
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Re: CHINA

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:57 am
Tit for tat perhaps, given the arbitrary detention the US and Canada have used on Chinese citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou for instance. A total scandal from day 1 and deliberate provocation.
Then target US or Canadian citizens, not Australian. Tit for tat never works anyway, it’s not the way to go.
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

On the other hand you might note that China hasn't threatened to, hasn't done it, the only thing that's happened is that the Australian government has made a bid for a headline.

The US tells the Australian government to jump and the only question is "was that high enough, Sir?"
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Re: CHINA

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:13 am
On the other hand you might note that China hasn't threatened to, hasn't done it, the only thing that's happened is that the Australian government has made a bid for a headline.

The US tells the Australian government to jump and the only question is "was that high enough, Sir?"
From the op :-

Considering they already have an Australian and two Canadians detained
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

Have you looked up the Australian chap? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Hengjun

I'd call him a Chinese Hong Kong activist with subsequent protective Australian nationality, I don't see how his extreme case relates to Australians travelling to China at all. He appears to have been in trouble with the Chinese authorities for decades.
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

Well your government is offering citizenship to Hongkongers and so is ours now, on an industrial scale. China is pissed off with us because our prime minister is leading the call for the enquiry into the pandemic thingy. China is punishing us buy raising tarriffs on all kinds of exports, but mainly our meat. Lets see how long they can go without meat eh? They do this to us all the time. but detaining us? There are a lot of Australians in Hong Kong and quite frankly I'm worried about them.
As far as being Americas bitch I'm not so certain these days but we're certainly Britains.
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Re: CHINA

Post by Bryn Mawr »

magentaflame wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:03 pm
Well your government is offering citizenship to Hongkongers and so is ours now, on an industrial scale. China is pissed off with us because our prime minister is leading the call for the enquiry into the pandemic thingy. China is punishing us buy raising tarriffs on all kinds of exports, but mainly our meat. Lets see how long they can go without meat eh? They do this to us all the time. but detaining us? There are a lot of Australians in Hong Kong and quite frankly I'm worried about them.
As far as being Americas bitch I'm not so certain these days but we're certainly Britains.
With the UK dancing to America’s tune that makes you ...?

As to the meat, they’ve still got a few dogs left!
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Re: CHINA

Post by LarsMac »

The local Republican senator is now running an ad campaign that blames China for COVID-19, and claims China is trying to ruin the American economy.
And the news is telling us that Americans are being targeted by Chinese authorities, too.
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

Bryn Mawr wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:50 pm
magentaflame wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:03 pm
Well your government is offering citizenship to Hongkongers and so is ours now, on an industrial scale. China is pissed off with us because our prime minister is leading the call for the enquiry into the pandemic thingy. China is punishing us buy raising tarriffs on all kinds of exports, but mainly our meat. Lets see how long they can go without meat eh? They do this to us all the time. but detaining us? There are a lot of Australians in Hong Kong and quite frankly I'm worried about them.
As far as being Americas bitch I'm not so certain these days but we're certainly Britains.
With the UK dancing to America’s tune that makes you ...?

As to the meat, they’ve still got a few dogs left!
a sadder poorer cousin?

and Marmots apparently :lol:.........actually that's not funny.
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

LarsMac wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:15 pm
The local Republican senator is now running an ad campaign that blames China for COVID-19, and claims China is trying to ruin the American economy.
And the news is telling us that Americans are being targeted by Chinese authorities, too.
sigh
They aren't to blame for the virus itself, infections can begin anywhere. We eat beef and we have so many viruses that can jump from the bovine line to us ...we still keep eating it though. The Chinese will keep eating what they eat.......their handling of the illness and the cover-up that followed is pretty accurate (in my opinion). Timeline wise we can easily figure that out.(And the suspicious disappearance and death of the doctor who tried to alert everyone) Although China is blaming a Frenchman and American for it if memory serves. If they had of swallowed their pride they could have saved face and had all the help they needed from international experts. but this is what happens when men are full of grandiosity.
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:57 pm
If they had of swallowed their pride they could have saved face and had all the help they needed from international experts. but this is what happens when men are full of grandiosity.
But you don't think the same could be said of the US?

The virus was out in the wild in Europe before the first cases were even recognized in China at the end of 2019. The virus is being found, now people are looking for it, in stored samples from water treatment works in various places dating before anyone recognized an outbreak in Wuhan. I don't see what basis anyone has for saying it could have been kept exclusively within China's borders given that fact. Perhaps you think it's not true, or that it makes no difference.

China is a lot more crowded than either the US or UK but they eliminated the disease and they're stamping on embers very effectively. They dealt so effectively with their outbreak that they've had nine times fewer deaths than the UK despite having twenty times the population. Is that extreme enough to indicate who actually dealt with it better, comparatively? Or that China has so far had thirty times fewer deaths than America?
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

Oh Spot! I adore the psychology you just used in that first paragraph.
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

I'm just puzzled by this tendency in the world to divide people into us and them, that's all.
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

What an absolute nonsense Spot.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.c ... k-evolved/

That link will take you right right back into last year.
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/27 ... gLVavD_BwE

If you still trust these guys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... 9_pandemic

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/07/ ... 20871.html
On December 31 last year, China alerted the WHO to several cases of unusual pneumonia in Wuhan, a city of 11 million people. The virus was unknown.

Several of those infected worked at the city's Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, which was shut down on January 1. As health experts worked to identify the virus amid growing alarm, the number of infections exceeded 40.

On January 5, Chinese officials ruled out the possibility that this was a recurrence of the severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) virus - an illness that originated in China and killed more than 770 people worldwide in 2002-2003.
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:54 pm
What an absolute nonsense Spot.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.c ... k-evolved/

That link will take you right right back into last year.
Let's play fair, shall we. That link has 57,484 words in it, I've known shorter novels than that. What are you looking at in there? If you quote a sentence or paragraph I'll be able to concede your point but at the moment it's obscure. It would take me eight hours to read it all and I'd have a dozen indistinguishable dead ends to explore by the time I finished.

If you want an example about my main point,
LONDON (Reuters) - Scientists in Italy have found traces of the new coronavirus in wastewater collected from Milan and Turin in December 2019 - suggesting COVID-19 was already circulating in northern Italy before China reported the first cases.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN23Q1J9
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

You have to keep scrolling.....der!
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:10 pm
You have to keep scrolling.....der!
To where? To what sentence?

Is my Reuter's article not clear as far as Covid already being in Italy last year? Here's another.
An analysis released on Thursday said samples taken in Milan and Turin on 18 December showed the presence of the SARS-Cov-2 virus.

https://www.firstpost.com/health/sewage ... 04611.html
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

spot wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:04 pm
magentaflame wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:54 pm
What an absolute nonsense Spot.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.c ... k-evolved/

That link will take you right right back into last year.
Let's play fair, shall we. That link has 57,484 words in it, I've known shorter novels than that. What are you looking at in there? If you quote a sentence or paragraph I'll be able to concede your point but at the moment it's obscure. It would take me eight hours to read it all and I'd have a dozen indistinguishable dead ends to explore by the time I finished.

If you want an example about my main point,
LONDON (Reuters) - Scientists in Italy have found traces of the new coronavirus in wastewater collected from Milan and Turin in December 2019 - suggesting COVID-19 was already circulating in northern Italy before China reported the first cases.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN23Q1J9
Just because you say it's obscure doesn't make it obscure. You trust China? I think you'd be the only one .

I"m not surprised they found it in the treatment water in that time period.

"How many Chinese travel abroad each year?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/311 ... stination/

Chinese tourists made 149 million overseas trips in 2018, with total spending amounting to $130 billion, according to a report released by the China Tourism Academy. The data marked a year-on-year increase of 14.7 percent and 13 percent, respectively.Aug 5, 2019"..........I'd be bloody worried about that total.


Number of outbound trips from China to Europe in 2018, by region of destination
Published by S. Lock, Feb 19, 2020
This statistic shows the number of outbound trips from China to Europe in 2018, by region of destination. There were approximately 1.15 million trips from China to Northern Europe in 2018.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/311 ... stination/
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

Undoubtedly all that is true, I have no problem with it. But what you wrote was that "If they had of swallowed their pride they could have saved face and had all the help they needed from international experts. but this is what happens when men are full of grandiosity", and the presence of the virus in Italy well before it had been recognized in the Wuhan outbreak says that it was already abroad, it was already outside of China, and no amount of international expertise was going to keep it from spreading beyond China - it was already out. What did they need help for, given how well they dealt with their outbreak once it was seen.
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Re: CHINA

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There is, at the moment, an international team in Wuhan trying to uncover the history of the outbreak. I'm interested to see the outcome of that. What you wrote about the huge number of Chinese tourists in Europe works both ways. It's as easy for a returning tourist to have introduced the virus into China from an origin in northern Italy as it is for the initial infection to have started in Wuhan. All I know at the moment is that the Wuhan outbreak was the first in the world to be recognized, and publicized, and responded to.

Perhaps it was already spreading in northern Italy by then and a chance was missed to attack the first outbreak in Europe earlier than the one in Wuhan. I've no idea, but more to the point neither does anyone else yet. Pointing fingers of blame at the first people to recognize the new infection could be correct but I'd prefer to wait for some evidence first. Nobody noticed the disease in Italy for months after it started spreading, by the time they did it was a wildfire.
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Re: CHINA

Post by LarsMac »

magentaflame wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:59 pm
https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/27 ... gLVavD_BwE

If you still trust these guys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... 9_pandemic

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/07/ ... 20871.html
On December 31 last year, China alerted the WHO to several cases of unusual pneumonia in Wuhan, a city of 11 million people. The virus was unknown.

Several of those infected worked at the city's Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, which was shut down on January 1. As health experts worked to identify the virus amid growing alarm, the number of infections exceeded 40.

On January 5, Chinese officials ruled out the possibility that this was a recurrence of the severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) virus - an illness that originated in China and killed more than 770 people worldwide in 2002-2003.
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

I think I'm somewhat of a "reasonable person" ....It's a subjective thing but I believe I have the capability to weigh things up.

Dr Li sent out a message to colleagues to start wearing PPE on the 30th of December .....Now I'm not a scientist but I'm pretty sure scientists don't look down a microscope and blurt out the first thing they see. He would have been tracking this along with others. So to be fair this would tell us that the mysterious illness had been around for awhile whilst they worked out what it was. Dr Li believed it was similar to SARS. Then he gets hauled into the authorities and told to essentially shut up. Which again gives the impression they knew about the situation too. ....Now considering this doctor apparently died of the disease and it took over a month to kill him and they already had deaths at that time, wouldn't it indicate that the first of cases were well and trully before the 1st of December at least? If the Chinese people aren't being told about what's happening and they are still travelling around the world then that would explain the cases in which no known communical contact occurred, it was already in circulation in other ways.

No cover up? My arse there was no cover up!And no, China has not eliminated the disease like everywhere else on earth hasn't eliminated the disease. Nowhere on earth can that be said.
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Re: CHINA

Post by Flycatcher »

I like Magenta Flame's terminology. Pandemic thingy.

It looks like we have a new thingy.

A/H1N1pdm09 similar to the swine flu of 2009. Although reported to be in the top disease threats, China say they are watching it.

Don't worry.
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

It never went away, https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resour ... -h1n1.html gives a sketch of its continued presence since it first emerged.

Welcome to ForumGarden.
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Re: CHINA

Post by Flycatcher »

Thank you.

Whilst China is widely misreported as being the origin of Swine flu, it was in fact, Mexico.
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

We would be delighted to see any citation you might care to offer, it provides the grease on which the conversation can slide along with less friction. It has, if you will excuse me, a bearing.

The fact that it was Mexico is something of which I have so far been unaware, but then I'd never heard it asserted that the origin was China either. I am a blank slate. It will take a mere paste to put us both on the same hymn-sheet, after which we can in turns offer variations.

Yes I could search, but we'd then not know what the other is working from. What has informed your position?
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Re: CHINA

Post by LarsMac »

I'm actually quite surprised that the Orange one has not got his cronies trying to hang this on Iran. Though China is easier since his base is convinced that they stole all our jobs.
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

LarsMac wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:00 pm
Though China is easier since his base is convinced that they stole all our jobs.
One can see their point, though I think their jobs had already gone to Japan and Korea and pre-1997 Hong Kong and Indonesia and Taiwan and Malaya already before China created a stack of extra new jobs too. I would contend that most of the earlier countries did most of their economic development undercutting the US marketplace, while most of the later China growth came from servicing the internal market to build infrastructure. Undercutting the US marketplace just comes with the territory, anyone around the Pacific rim who can make anything can make it cheaper than the US because US workers grew accustomed to being comparatively very rich while the entire Pacific rim countries were shredded bare by colonialism (or, in Japan's case, Imperialism).

I'm carefully not mentioning Mexico and the Philippines, did you see that? They would involve Spain too.
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Re: CHINA

Post by LarsMac »

spot wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:42 am
LarsMac wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:00 pm
Though China is easier since his base is convinced that they stole all our jobs.
One can see their point, though I think their jobs had already gone to Japan and Korea and pre-1997 Hong Kong and Indonesia and Taiwan and Malaya already before China created a stack of extra new jobs too. I would contend that most of the earlier countries did most of their economic development undercutting the US marketplace, while most of the later China growth came from servicing the internal market to build infrastructure. Undercutting the US marketplace just comes with the territory, anyone around the Pacific rim who can make anything can make it cheaper than the US because US workers grew accustomed to being comparatively very rich while the entire Pacific rim countries were shredded bare by colonialism (or, in Japan's case, Imperialism).

I'm carefully not mentioning Mexico and the Philippines, did you see that? They would involve Spain too.
And there's the rub. These people did not come here and steal our jobs.
Corporations packed them up and sent them off, and we paid the shipping costs, so we could have cheaper do-dads.
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Re: CHINA

Post by magentaflame »

LarsMac wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:13 am
spot wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:42 am
LarsMac wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:00 pm
Though China is easier since his base is convinced that they stole all our jobs.
One can see their point, though I think their jobs had already gone to Japan and Korea and pre-1997 Hong Kong and Indonesia and Taiwan and Malaya already before China created a stack of extra new jobs too. I would contend that most of the earlier countries did most of their economic development undercutting the US marketplace, while most of the later China growth came from servicing the internal market to build infrastructure. Undercutting the US marketplace just comes with the territory, anyone around the Pacific rim who can make anything can make it cheaper than the US because US workers grew accustomed to being comparatively very rich while the entire Pacific rim countries were shredded bare by colonialism (or, in Japan's case, Imperialism).

I'm carefully not mentioning Mexico and the Philippines, did you see that? They would involve Spain too.
And there's the rub. These people did not come here and steal our jobs.
Corporations packed them up and sent them off, and we paid the shipping costs, so we could have cheaper do-dads.
spot on!
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Re: CHINA

Post by spot »

Here we are. We were wondering which way this second quarter was going to end up.


Image


If sales falter for the rest of the year they have that aforementioned ability to improve their infrastructure to keep the economy active, we could learn a lesson there.

The next couple of years of their space program looks astonishing too. A return sample trip to the moon, a soft lander on Mars and a new large low-orbit space station with a dozen supply launches to get it started.
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Re: CHINA

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:53 pm

The next couple of years of their space program looks astonishing too. A return sample trip to the moon, a soft lander on Mars and a new large low-orbit space station with a dozen supply launches to get it started.
All down to the top NASA guy the Americans deported for the crime of being Chinese.

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