Not sure "Sir" is warranted anymore.
It has come to light that if he was alive today he would be questioned and charged (not necsesaryly convicted) over child sexual crimes dating from 1961 to 1992.....thats a long time to do a hell of a lot of damage.
But is anyone surprised?
Sir Edward Heath
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Sir Edward Heath
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Sir Edward Heath
magentaflame;1513184 wrote: Not sure "Sir" is warranted anymore.
It has come to light that if he was alive today he would be questioned and charged (not necsesaryly convicted) over child sexual crimes dating from 1961 to 1992.....thats a long time to do a hell of a lot of damage.
But is anyone surprised?
Your facts are wrong. Nobody has said he would have been charged. Were he not twelve years in his grave he would, on the basis of seven of the allegations made against him either before or after what was acknowledged today by the police to have been a tainted appeal to the public, have been interviewed under caution.
I have always been repelled by this witless proverb that there's no smoke without fire.
It has come to light that if he was alive today he would be questioned and charged (not necsesaryly convicted) over child sexual crimes dating from 1961 to 1992.....thats a long time to do a hell of a lot of damage.
But is anyone surprised?
Your facts are wrong. Nobody has said he would have been charged. Were he not twelve years in his grave he would, on the basis of seven of the allegations made against him either before or after what was acknowledged today by the police to have been a tainted appeal to the public, have been interviewed under caution.
I have always been repelled by this witless proverb that there's no smoke without fire.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Sir Edward Heath
Are we to now expect a regular procession of dead bodies to be exhumed in order to blacken their reputation once they cannot defend themselves.
It has always been, once they are in their grave, they are allowed to rest in peace.
It has always been, once they are in their grave, they are allowed to rest in peace.
Sir Edward Heath
I don't mind what they do so long as they keep it to themselves instead of notifying the press. I'm not in favour of naming anyone before conviction, not for any reason whatever. I'd say being named in any sex-related context is a direct equivalent of being convicted.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Sir Edward Heath
Bryn Mawr;1513186 wrote: Are we to now expect a regular procession of dead bodies to be exhumed in order to blacken their reputation once they cannot defend themselves.
It has always been, once they are in their grave, they are allowed to rest in peace.
Honestly Bryn, if it takes that?...yes! Why should history be quashed because someone is dead. PIE had 2000 members from organisations, big business and politicians who backed them. So why not call them out?
And its quite common for people to come forward with allegations after someone is dead, because they fear reprisal and hounding threats whilst that person is alive.
It has always been, once they are in their grave, they are allowed to rest in peace.
Honestly Bryn, if it takes that?...yes! Why should history be quashed because someone is dead. PIE had 2000 members from organisations, big business and politicians who backed them. So why not call them out?
And its quite common for people to come forward with allegations after someone is dead, because they fear reprisal and hounding threats whilst that person is alive.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Sir Edward Heath
Actually, perfect example...George Pell.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Sir Edward Heath
magentaflame;1513191 wrote: Actually, perfect example...George Pell.
You already had an example - Edward Heath. And Edward Heath is an extremely poor example. Had your thread been about George Pell I'd not have posted in it. What has been published about Edward Heath carries as much conviction as an account of the doings of the Tooth Fairy whom he would have sadly resembled had he worn a tutu and carried a wand. He cannot be blamed for his freakish appearance or the incompetent social skills drummed into him at Oxford any more than so-called David Cameron can.
Anyone who wants to may "come forward" as you put it, after a person's dead. That's fine. It's not possible to slander the dead, they have no recourse. I can announce here as fact that Les Dawson worked for ten years as a London hit man for the Kray Twins and nobody, absolutely nobody, can bring me to account for it, because Les Dawson is dead. I could not safely say the same about Barry Humphries because if I did, Barry Humphries could sue the hide off me. I take no exception to what people could say in public of Les Dawson.
What I take exception to is the police, or any other part of the judicial system, saying it, because the police saying it carries overtones of authoritative impartial truth. Allegedly. Especially when the police become the source of the news event as they did with, for example, the subsequently exonerated Cliff Richard. And when it's the police doing it I don't care whether the person is dead or alive, I still think such an act by the police would be overstepping their territory until they get a guilty verdict under their belt. When they have a guilty verdict under their belt they're welcome to their press conference and an after-work party but not before.
I would argue this even if every denunciation of a public figure were accurate and true. It is a secondary consideration that the majority of these historical sexual accusations against public figures are, for all anyone can tell, false, baseless inventions made by fantasists seeking publicity, excitement and financial gain. Tens of thousands of pounds in civil damages against someone's estate is a powerful incentive.
You already had an example - Edward Heath. And Edward Heath is an extremely poor example. Had your thread been about George Pell I'd not have posted in it. What has been published about Edward Heath carries as much conviction as an account of the doings of the Tooth Fairy whom he would have sadly resembled had he worn a tutu and carried a wand. He cannot be blamed for his freakish appearance or the incompetent social skills drummed into him at Oxford any more than so-called David Cameron can.
Anyone who wants to may "come forward" as you put it, after a person's dead. That's fine. It's not possible to slander the dead, they have no recourse. I can announce here as fact that Les Dawson worked for ten years as a London hit man for the Kray Twins and nobody, absolutely nobody, can bring me to account for it, because Les Dawson is dead. I could not safely say the same about Barry Humphries because if I did, Barry Humphries could sue the hide off me. I take no exception to what people could say in public of Les Dawson.
What I take exception to is the police, or any other part of the judicial system, saying it, because the police saying it carries overtones of authoritative impartial truth. Allegedly. Especially when the police become the source of the news event as they did with, for example, the subsequently exonerated Cliff Richard. And when it's the police doing it I don't care whether the person is dead or alive, I still think such an act by the police would be overstepping their territory until they get a guilty verdict under their belt. When they have a guilty verdict under their belt they're welcome to their press conference and an after-work party but not before.
I would argue this even if every denunciation of a public figure were accurate and true. It is a secondary consideration that the majority of these historical sexual accusations against public figures are, for all anyone can tell, false, baseless inventions made by fantasists seeking publicity, excitement and financial gain. Tens of thousands of pounds in civil damages against someone's estate is a powerful incentive.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Sir Edward Heath
magentaflame;1513189 wrote: Honestly Bryn, if it takes that?...yes! Why should history be quashed because someone is dead. PIE had 2000 members from organisations, big business and politicians who backed them. So why not call them out?
And its quite common for people to come forward with allegations after someone is dead, because they fear reprisal and hounding threats whilst that person is alive.
Because it is all too easy to make an accusation forty years after the alleged event, no proof needed, the more famous the better and, in the public's eye, the allegation is equal to the truth.
If PIE has two thousand members then go after them, prove a person was part of PIE, do not invite all an sundry to make accusations against a dead man who cannot defend himself or his reputation.
And its quite common for people to come forward with allegations after someone is dead, because they fear reprisal and hounding threats whilst that person is alive.
Because it is all too easy to make an accusation forty years after the alleged event, no proof needed, the more famous the better and, in the public's eye, the allegation is equal to the truth.
If PIE has two thousand members then go after them, prove a person was part of PIE, do not invite all an sundry to make accusations against a dead man who cannot defend himself or his reputation.
Sir Edward Heath
Even when someone comes forward when the person or persons are still alive and they are serving jail time there are still those who think the victims were asking for it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -consented
Sammy Woodhouse was told by the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority (CICA) that she was not “manipulated†despite her evidence helping to convict a ringleader of the gang last year.
She said: [QUOTE]“If an adult can privately think that it’s a child’s fault for being abused, beaten, raped, abducted, I think you’re in the wrong job.â€
Woodhouse, one of the most prominent survivors of the Rotherham sex-grooming scandal, is one of nearly 700 child victims of sexual abuse who have been refused payments by CICA.
It's hard in our times for a victim to feel able to make a complaint how much harder was in in a time when people refused to believe such things went on and that children lied to get attention.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -consented
Sammy Woodhouse was told by the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority (CICA) that she was not “manipulated†despite her evidence helping to convict a ringleader of the gang last year.
She said: [QUOTE]“If an adult can privately think that it’s a child’s fault for being abused, beaten, raped, abducted, I think you’re in the wrong job.â€
Woodhouse, one of the most prominent survivors of the Rotherham sex-grooming scandal, is one of nearly 700 child victims of sexual abuse who have been refused payments by CICA.
It's hard in our times for a victim to feel able to make a complaint how much harder was in in a time when people refused to believe such things went on and that children lied to get attention.
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Sir Edward Heath
spot;1513198 wrote: You already had an example - Edward Heath. And Edward Heath is an extremely poor example. Had your thread been about George Pell I'd not have posted in it. What has been published about Edward Heath carries as much conviction as an account of the doings of the Tooth Fairy whom he would have sadly resembled had he worn a tutu and carried a wand. He cannot be blamed for his freakish appearance or the incompetent social skills drummed into him at Oxford any more than so-called David Cameron can.
Anyone who wants to may "come forward" as you put it, after a person's dead. That's fine. It's not possible to slander the dead, they have no recourse. I can announce here as fact that Les Dawson worked for ten years as a London hit man for the Kray Twins and nobody, absolutely nobody, can bring me to account for it, because Les Dawson is dead. I could not safely say the same about Barry Humphries because if I did, Barry Humphries could sue the hide off me. I take no exception to what people could say in public of Les Dawson.
What I take exception to is the police, or any other part of the judicial system, saying it, because the police saying it carries overtones of authoritative impartial truth. Allegedly. Especially when the police become the source of the news event as they did with, for example, the subsequently exonerated Cliff Richard. And when it's the police doing it I don't care whether the person is dead or alive, I still think such an act by the police would be overstepping their territory until they get a guilty verdict under their belt. When they have a guilty verdict under their belt they're welcome to their press conference and an after-work party but not before.
I would argue this even if every denunciation of a public figure were accurate and true. It is a secondary consideration that the majority of these historical sexual accusations against public figures are, for all anyone can tell, false, baseless inventions made by fantasists seeking publicity, excitement and financial gain. Tens of thousands of pounds in civil damages against someone's estate is a powerful incentive.
I adore that post. Oh to be a conservative man in western society.
I love that post because ive seen those words before. (Just before the royal commission into institutional child sexual abuse)......Then weirdly....silence. lol.
Anyone who wants to may "come forward" as you put it, after a person's dead. That's fine. It's not possible to slander the dead, they have no recourse. I can announce here as fact that Les Dawson worked for ten years as a London hit man for the Kray Twins and nobody, absolutely nobody, can bring me to account for it, because Les Dawson is dead. I could not safely say the same about Barry Humphries because if I did, Barry Humphries could sue the hide off me. I take no exception to what people could say in public of Les Dawson.
What I take exception to is the police, or any other part of the judicial system, saying it, because the police saying it carries overtones of authoritative impartial truth. Allegedly. Especially when the police become the source of the news event as they did with, for example, the subsequently exonerated Cliff Richard. And when it's the police doing it I don't care whether the person is dead or alive, I still think such an act by the police would be overstepping their territory until they get a guilty verdict under their belt. When they have a guilty verdict under their belt they're welcome to their press conference and an after-work party but not before.
I would argue this even if every denunciation of a public figure were accurate and true. It is a secondary consideration that the majority of these historical sexual accusations against public figures are, for all anyone can tell, false, baseless inventions made by fantasists seeking publicity, excitement and financial gain. Tens of thousands of pounds in civil damages against someone's estate is a powerful incentive.
I adore that post. Oh to be a conservative man in western society.
I love that post because ive seen those words before. (Just before the royal commission into institutional child sexual abuse)......Then weirdly....silence. lol.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Sir Edward Heath
magentaflame;1513260 wrote: I adore that post. Oh to be a conservative man in western society.
I love that post because ive seen those words before. (Just before the royal commission into institutional child sexual abuse)......Then weirdly....silence. lol.
Take it one sentence at a time if you like. Let's work through them.
Tens of thousands of pounds in civil damages against someone's estate is a powerful incentive? Yes? No? There's no civil damages? Nobody ever got awarded money after bringing an accusation to the police?
I love that post because ive seen those words before. (Just before the royal commission into institutional child sexual abuse)......Then weirdly....silence. lol.
Take it one sentence at a time if you like. Let's work through them.
Tens of thousands of pounds in civil damages against someone's estate is a powerful incentive? Yes? No? There's no civil damages? Nobody ever got awarded money after bringing an accusation to the police?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Sir Edward Heath
spot;1513262 wrote: Take it one sentence at a time if you like. Let's work through them.
Tens of thousands of pounds in civil damages against someone's estate is a powerful incentive? Yes? No? There's no civil damages? Nobody ever got awarded money after bringing an accusation to the police?
The can of worms has bern opened. Sit back, relax and watch the flow on effect.
(Btw thankyou for being patrionising.... lol...one sentence at a time.)
Tens of thousands of pounds in civil damages against someone's estate is a powerful incentive? Yes? No? There's no civil damages? Nobody ever got awarded money after bringing an accusation to the police?
The can of worms has bern opened. Sit back, relax and watch the flow on effect.
(Btw thankyou for being patrionising.... lol...one sentence at a time.)
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Sir Edward Heath
magentaflame;1513267 wrote: (Btw thankyou for being patrionising.... lol...one sentence at a time.)
It's not patronizing at all. You gave an opinion on my post without giving any reason at all for thinking your opinion has merit. I gave reasons. I'm trying to discover what reason you have for holding your opinion. I suggested we take one statement at a time and peel the differences apart so we can find out which is sustainable.
Instead of ducking the question and pretending you're right because you're right, you could try addressing it.
It's not patronizing at all. You gave an opinion on my post without giving any reason at all for thinking your opinion has merit. I gave reasons. I'm trying to discover what reason you have for holding your opinion. I suggested we take one statement at a time and peel the differences apart so we can find out which is sustainable.
Instead of ducking the question and pretending you're right because you're right, you could try addressing it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Sir Edward Heath
magentaflame;1513260 wrote: I adore that post. Oh to be a conservative man in western society.
I love that post because ive seen those words before. (Just before the royal commission into institutional child sexual abuse)......Then weirdly....silence. lol.
Ill just repeat what i said.
I love that post because ive seen those words before. (Just before the royal commission into institutional child sexual abuse)......Then weirdly....silence. lol.
Ill just repeat what i said.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Sir Edward Heath
magentaflame;1513276 wrote: Ill just repeat what i said.
I've no idea whether Ted Heath paid the owner of an eleven year old boy back in the 1960s to hand him over and then drove back to his own house in order to rape the lad but it seems extremely improbable. I think Ted Heath was mortified at being stood up by his fiancee in 1950 and never went near a woman again as long as he lived, but I don't think that implies he was a practicing homosexual (as opposed to a camp embarrassment) much less a child molester. I think it more likely he was completely asexual, but it's a guess. Your guess seems far less probable. I think anyone paying a pimp for sex with an eleven year old is going to do it there and then, not drive the child fifty miles to his own house and then fifty miles back after a half hour's buggery, that being a fair summary (I think) of the allegation. What I definitely don't think is that any speculation of this sort is going to uncover any truth, and that "is anyone surprised" is sheer voyeurism on your part.
If you had meant "is anyone surprised" that accusations are laid after Heath's dead twelve years then no, I'm not, but that's a comment about accusers leaping on police bandwagons when a national invitation for "victims" is broadcast. This accuser undoubtedly had first-hand experience of underage sex from an adult perspective since that's what he was in jail for when he "came forward". He was, if I understand the news correctly, in jail when he contacted the police to make this statement fifty years after the alleged event. Perhaps he thought "I was a sexual victim of the Lord Privy Seal" might help him get parole more quickly, who knows.
The required level of proof in a criminal trial in this country, and in yours, is "beyond reasonable doubt". On what possible basis are you blackening Ted Heath's name in this thread?
Jeremy Thorpe seems a far better bet if you want to stir up scandal about a bounder who didn't know where the limits were.
I've no idea whether Ted Heath paid the owner of an eleven year old boy back in the 1960s to hand him over and then drove back to his own house in order to rape the lad but it seems extremely improbable. I think Ted Heath was mortified at being stood up by his fiancee in 1950 and never went near a woman again as long as he lived, but I don't think that implies he was a practicing homosexual (as opposed to a camp embarrassment) much less a child molester. I think it more likely he was completely asexual, but it's a guess. Your guess seems far less probable. I think anyone paying a pimp for sex with an eleven year old is going to do it there and then, not drive the child fifty miles to his own house and then fifty miles back after a half hour's buggery, that being a fair summary (I think) of the allegation. What I definitely don't think is that any speculation of this sort is going to uncover any truth, and that "is anyone surprised" is sheer voyeurism on your part.
If you had meant "is anyone surprised" that accusations are laid after Heath's dead twelve years then no, I'm not, but that's a comment about accusers leaping on police bandwagons when a national invitation for "victims" is broadcast. This accuser undoubtedly had first-hand experience of underage sex from an adult perspective since that's what he was in jail for when he "came forward". He was, if I understand the news correctly, in jail when he contacted the police to make this statement fifty years after the alleged event. Perhaps he thought "I was a sexual victim of the Lord Privy Seal" might help him get parole more quickly, who knows.
The required level of proof in a criminal trial in this country, and in yours, is "beyond reasonable doubt". On what possible basis are you blackening Ted Heath's name in this thread?
Jeremy Thorpe seems a far better bet if you want to stir up scandal about a bounder who didn't know where the limits were.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Sir Edward Heath
magentaflame;1513184 wrote: Not sure "Sir" is warranted anymore.
It has come to light that if he was alive today he would be questioned and charged (not necsesaryly convicted) over child sexual crimes dating from 1961 to 1992.....thats a long time to do a hell of a lot of damage.
But is anyone surprised?
If you want to follow the trial of the accuser, you can pick it up here... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... by-tory-mp
It has come to light that if he was alive today he would be questioned and charged (not necsesaryly convicted) over child sexual crimes dating from 1961 to 1992.....thats a long time to do a hell of a lot of damage.
But is anyone surprised?
If you want to follow the trial of the accuser, you can pick it up here... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... by-tory-mp
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Re: Sir Edward Heath
For completeness, the trial of the accuser led to him being jailed in 2019 for 18 years after the police fiasco called Operation Midland. It's worth tying the thread up with the end of the story - the keywords are Carl Beech, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... he-accused and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midlandmagentaflame wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:00 pm Not sure "Sir" is warranted anymore.
It has come to light that if he was alive today he would be questioned and charged (not necsesaryly convicted) over child sexual crimes dating from 1961 to 1992.....thats a long time to do a hell of a lot of damage.
But is anyone surprised?
Anyone left wondering what the smoke about Sir Edward Heath was all about would do well to read the Wikipedia article. Absolutely unfounded lies by a scoundrel, egged on by inept police officers eager for publicity and promotion who went beyond any reasonable bounds, the way some do. That was the issue, not Edward Heath.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.