Intelligent design and creationism

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Mickiel
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Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1509368 wrote: You have to understand that when a poster such as yourself posts threads that are unique in which the sources he or she cites have completely different content and contextual meaning to what the poster is presenting, readers are going to inevitably ask why. That's what gmc and I have done. It may be that posters will often engage in this sort of analysis behind the scene thru private messaging. I prefer to be upfront and honest so to not hide thoughts from those I'm talking about. But when you put yourself out there like this you're going to be subject to criticism.

Novelists are often subject to this sort of scrutiny because their work is unique, and so readers often ask where subjects and characters of their work come from and thus are often analyzed.

For example, if you were discussing the contents of the bible, you could be engaged on that, however, when that's attempted and you're challenged on it you often meander off into some other outside source that you also often misrepresent in order to justify what you've posted leaving readers wondering what exactly it is you're trying to communicate.

ETA: I know most will give you a pass on all this because of your illness, however, I doubt you'd want to be patronized and would, therefore, prefer honesty. Honesty's all I've got for you. I'll leave the patronizing to the troll(s).




I prefer honesty, and my illness has absolutely nothing to do with this. In fact, my latest MRI reveals that some of my cancer is disappearing, and all of it has stopped spreading, so my illness is not some kind of bad news that I used to gain support for my biblical views. I have never used my illness to support my views. I don't need to. And I cannot help it if my use of other sources have been taken out of context with you, just because you cannot understand that I can glean things from other sources that I mainly disagree with as a whole. I have the ability to learn things from sources, and not be a disciple of those sources. Its not my problem if you can't understand my learning curve with the sources I learn from, and how I learned from them.

I cannot expect you to live what I have lived. I am not amazed if you and I read the same book, but glean totally differing things from it, which is obviously the case here. But you are so desperate to soil anything I have posted, that you create the dirt in your mind, and expect all other minds that you contact to be dirty as well; to have the same dirt that you need to support your assault on my interpretation of things on this subject matter. In other words, you think your intelligence and interpretation has meaning , and mine does not; so you reach out at others to gather support for your interpretation of my so called faults. My reasoning does not need your acceptance. But you are free to assault me.

I consider your reasoning an assault on God and his existence, and I expect no less from you or GMC. I understand your assault, because I have learned to know my enemy. How can I expect to know God, and I do not know his enemy? I understand that Atheist must deforce God, and withhold the origin of intelligence from its rightful owner. Its a race then, a race for the consciousness of humanity, as we hurl towards an end. You think that you can convince others that I am faulty , I move on with no interest in convincing anyone. You know, I'm going to do my thing anyhow. In my view God is intellectual, and reality shows evidence on his intellect. His intellect has appealed to mine , so I am interested. The evidence of creation being the result of intellect, has furnished a rational structure or meaning for my psychological insight into how we humans analyze data. You see the data completely differing than I do; Hey, I mean we have different minds, so its no great mystery how we process the data.

The existence of God has appealed to my rational capacity to acquire and apply knowledge , and has not to yours. Its not a matter of right and wrong , its simply a matter of appeal. In my view, the knowledge of God is capable of being somewhat understood; just not by intellect alone ; and that is where you and I part the company of this topic.
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Post by Ted »

Mickiel I know that we often differ but that is a great post and I agree with most of it. Sorry to hear of your illness and hoped that it soon disappears. Blessings and peace
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1509407 wrote: Mickiel I know that we often differ but that is a great post and I agree with most of it. Sorry to hear of your illness and hoped that it soon disappears. Blessings and peace


Well thank you. I have had lung cancer for two years now; 8 months ago they gave me about 6 months to live, saying it took a turn and cannot be reversed. The cancer has stopped spreading and has began to disappear in some areas. In my view, God has the final say so as to how long I live, but I am doing fine and in no bad pain at all for now. I did mention my health situation some time ago, but I never used it as some sort of tool in any thread of mine; in fact I thought I was soon to check out of here and was kind of saying goodbye if anything. I gave the Doctors the benefit of doubt; but hey, for now I am still here.

But I have not used my illness to gain some sort of advantage in thread in any manner. Death is something we all must face , sooner or later. And I understand that. I almost wish I had not mentioned it at all.
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Post by Ted »

mICKIEL i HAV E A FRIEND WHO WAS GIVEN A FEW MONTHS TO LIVE SOME 8 YEARS AGO. tHE CHURCH ENGAGED IN A GREAT DEAL OF PRAYER FOR HIM. wAS THIS A HELP????? i CANNOT ANSWER THAT. sO YES HANG AROUND FOR AWHILE. sHAL9jm

Sorry about the caps. Can just read the monitor with some effort.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1509682 wrote: mICKIEL i HAV E A FRIEND WHO WAS GIVEN A FEW MONTHS TO LIVE SOME 8 YEARS AGO. tHE CHURCH ENGAGED IN A GREAT DEAL OF PRAYER FOR HIM. wAS THIS A HELP????? i CANNOT ANSWER THAT. sO YES HANG AROUND FOR AWHILE. sHAL9jm

Sorry about the caps. Can just read the monitor with some effort.


Yes ,thank you. Right now i am 2 months past the. Time they gave me to live, and my health is just fine praise God. And the right diet is very important, so that helped. Thanks so much.
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Post by gmc »

Posted by mickiel

Well thank you. I have had lung cancer for two years now; 8 months ago they gave me about 6 months to live, saying it took a turn and cannot be reversed. The cancer has stopped spreading and has began to disappear in some areas. In my view, God has the final say so as to how long I live, but I am doing fine and in no bad pain at all for now. I did mention my health situation some time ago, but I never used it as some sort of tool in any thread of mine; in fact I thought I was soon to check out of here and was kind of saying goodbye if anything. I gave the Doctors the benefit of doubt; but hey, for now I am still here.

But I have not used my illness to gain some sort of advantage in thread in any manner. Death is something we all must face , sooner or later. And I understand that. I almost wish I had not mentioned it at all.


I've swithered about posting again but since you are the one that brought the subject up. Did god give you the lung cancer or is it self inflicted - by smoking for example. When you meet god will you ask him why he gave you the cancer in the first place. and while you're at it ask him why he gives it to young children.

I wish you well and hope your faith gives you comfort but quite frankly I think it's a load of bollocks and nothing you have ever posted on these forums has gone any way to convince me otherwise what you believe is relevant and proof only to you. On a personal level I know more about end of life care and cancer than I ever wanted to I don't know what happens after death I can accept that. Rreligion causes so much harm in the world it holds back scientifiuc research and tries to impose on the last days of non believers many of you co religionists will be sad as you are going to hell as a non believer since you don't believe as they do some won't allow you to be buried in their graveyards sanctimonioius pricks that they are.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509704 wrote: Posted by mickiel



I've swithered about posting again but since you are the one that brought the subject up. Did god give you the lung cancer or is it self inflicted - by smoking for example. When you meet god will you ask him why he gave you the cancer in the first place. and while you're at it ask him why he gives it to young children.

I wish you well and hope your faith gives you comfort but quite frankly I think it's a load of bollocks and nothing you have ever posted on these forums has gone any way to convince me otherwise what you believe is relevant and proof only to you. On a personal level I know more about end of life care and cancer than I ever wanted to I don't know what happens after death I can accept that. Rreligion causes so much harm in the world it holds back scientifiuc research and tries to impose on the last days of non believers many of you co religionists will be sad as you are going to hell as a non believer since you don't believe as they do some won't allow you to be buried in their graveyards sanctimonioius pricks that they are.


My cancer was self inflicted. In life we all make sacrifices, belief in God is my sacrifice.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509704 wrote: Posted by mickiel



I've swithered about posting again but since you are the one that brought the subject up. Did god give you the lung cancer or is it self inflicted - by smoking for example. When you meet god will you ask him why he gave you the cancer in the first place. and while you're at it ask him why he gives it to young children.

I wish you well and hope your faith gives you comfort but quite frankly I think it's a load of bollocks and nothing you have ever posted on these forums has gone any way to convince me otherwise what you believe is relevant and proof only to you. On a personal level I know more about end of life care and cancer than I ever wanted to I don't know what happens after death I can accept that. Rreligion causes so much harm in the world it holds back scientifiuc research and tries to impose on the last days of non believers many of you co religionists will be sad as you are going to hell as a non believer since you don't believe as they do some won't allow you to be buried in their graveyards sanctimonioius pricks that they are.


I smoked for over 40 years, i even inhaled cigar smoke, and weed. I had a ball, but now i have to give an account for all that. In my case is my fault, but why God allows cancer in children is a hard reality, but the whole world has to suffer in his great plan for humanity, it's just how it is for now. With God there will be no exceptions, even children must suffer, we all will experience the way of sin and evil. Hey, if i could change it i would, but i am afraid it's nothing anyone can do to stop God. And it's going to get worse. But the pathology of God in this matter is that we must suffer now and be free later. I think he just wants us to clearly know and understand the vast difference between good and evil.
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Post by Ted »

Mickiel I cannot agree with you on that. If God exists and I belieeve in the reality opf God, He does not inflict such things on us. Same with the theology of atonement. What kind of god would demand a blood sacrifice. That is not what we see in the life of Jesus of Nazareth.k "God is love and he that abideth in love abideth in God" What we see in this Jesus if you so believe is a man oc total compassion and a man yearning for justice.. In my own personal case all I ask is for the courage to face what lies ahead..

Jesus in the sermon on the mount tells us "You have heard it said . . . . but I tell you" e gave us a whole new way of living./
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1509715 wrote: My cancer was self inflicted. In life we all make sacrifices, belief in God is my sacrifice.


Previously you have staated you don't believe in free will. That being the case your cancer was a preordained given to you by god.

posted by mickiel

I smoked for over 40 years, i even inhaled cigar smoke, and weed. I had a ball, but now i have to give an account for all that. In my case is my fault, but why God allows cancer in children is a hard reality, but the whole world has to suffer in his great plan for humanity, it's just how it is for now. With God there will be no exceptions, even children must suffer, we all will experience the way of sin and evil. Hey, if i could change it i would, but i am afraid it's nothing anyone can do to stop God. And it's going to get worse. But the pathology of God in this matter is that we must suffer now and be free later. I think he just wants us to clearly know and understand the vast difference between good and evil.


What a sad depressing way of looking at life. Why do so many cleave to the mean capricious vindictive god depicted in the old testament your god doesn't exist but if he did I would want nothing to do with him. Given the situation you are in perhaps suffering now to be free in the afterlife gives you comfort. Sadly the miserable religious want to inflict suffering on everybody else. Wouldn't it be ironic if the real test wass how gullible you are to fall for the nonsense.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509754 wrote: Previously you have staated you don't believe in free will. That being the case your cancer was a preordained given to you by god.

posted by mickiel



What a sad depressing way of looking at life. Why do so many cleave to the mean capricious vindictive god depicted in the old testament your god doesn't exist but if he did I would want nothing to do with him. Given the situation you are in perhaps suffering now to be free in the afterlife gives you comfort. Sadly the miserable religious want to inflict suffering on everybody else. Wouldn't it be ironic if the real test wass how gullible you are to fall for the nonsense.


I believe that God preordains our lives, but that he routes our paths and main direction, but not control our every single thing. I have had cancer for 2 and a half years and its starting to disseminate. Now, did God give me cancer? Well l am not sure of that, is he healing me of it? Well he might, you know, so far it seems like he may. I cleave to God because i refuse to cleave to anything mankind has suggested that we do, i think humanity is far meaner than God. I consider God exciting, i consider the Atheist way of thinking as dull.
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Post by Ted »

I have to agree with gmc in part. What kind of god would decide that some should really suffer and others don't need to. For instance the theology of the atonement says God needed a blood sacrifice in order to assuage his anger. Really. That kind of god should be dead if he is not. The sermon on the mount is a reinterpretation of the famous 10 commandments. "You have heard it said. . . . but I say to you". He really was trying to show us a better way of living. He was a new Moses. Moses delikvered the ten from a mountain and Jesus and Jesus is purported to have done the same thing from a mountain. What a lot of folks today do is look at the ancient myths and legends and try to make them literal history like the sun standing still which never happened. It is a midrash and needs to be interpreted as such.Many today describe it as fairy tale not understanding midrash.
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1509756 wrote: I believe that God preordains our lives, but that he routes our paths and main direction, but not control our every single thing. I have had cancer for 2 and a half years and its starting to disseminate. Now, did God give me cancer? Well l am not sure of that, is he healing me of it? Well he might, you know, so far it seems like he may. I cleave to God because i refuse to cleave to anything mankind has suggested that we do, i think humanity is far meaner than God. I consider God exciting, i consider the Atheist way of thinking as dull.


bear in mind I am only going by what you have said yourself. You can't have it all ways - god either preordained things or he didn't, you have free will or you don't, god is responsible for all things or he is not and if mankind is mean who made him that way? Don't go in to that crap about original sin and how god sacrificed his son/ himself for our sins it's a load of made up nonsense.

There is no "atheist way of thinking" the only thing atheists have in common with each other is a shared disbelief in the existence of god there being no evidence to suggest that there actually is one.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509771 wrote: bear in mind I am only going by what you have said yourself. You can't have it all ways - god either preordained things or he didn't, you have free will or you don't, god is responsible for all things or he is not and if mankind is mean who made him that way? Don't go in to that crap about original sin and how god sacrificed his son/ himself for our sins it's a load of made up nonsense.

There is no "atheist way of thinking" the only thing atheists have in common with each other is a shared disbelief in the existence of god there being no evidence to suggest that there actually is one.


god is responsible for all things that he want to be involved in. And is aware of those things he is not. And there does exist Atheist thinking. From where i stand Atheist have differing opinions on all things, that is obviously the Atheist way of thinking ;their opinions are their thougth processes.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1509780 wrote: god is responsible for all things that he want to be involved in. And is aware of those things he is not. And there does exist Atheist thinking. From where i stand Atheist have differing opinions on all things, that is obviously the Atheist way of thinking ;their opinions are their thougth processes.


Since it seems I have To do this, let me list the kinds of things God would not involve himself in:

What you're going to cook

What color you like

When you go to the bathroom

How long you have sex

Which kind of beer you like

When to wash your feet

What kind of shirts you don't like

How to brush your teeth

Which way to scratch your legs

How much flour to fry your chicken in

How long to stay in your bathtub

Which comic book to read

God is not involved in all things

Why should God dictate how you clip your toenails?

or how many times to lick your ice cream cone?

why would God control how you cut your grass?

God is not interested in your cellphone number

He does not determine when you should sleep in the bed or on the couch

Your choice of which car to buy is your choice alone

Not that God "cannot do these things ", but we need to be reasonable and stop thinking in extremes when I say God controls all things.He controls those things he deems necessary.
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1509795 wrote: Since it seems I have To do this, let me list the kinds of things God would not involve himself in:

What you're going to cook

What color you like

When you go to the bathroom

How long you have sex

Which kind of beer you like

When to wash your feet

What kind of shirts you don't like

How to brush your teeth

Which way to scratch your legs

How much flour to fry your chicken in

How long to stay in your bathtub

Which comic book to read

God is not involved in all things

Why should God dictate how you clip your toenails?

or how many times to lick your ice cream cone?

why would God control how you cut your grass?

God is not interested in your cellphone number

He does not determine when you should sleep in the bed or on the couch

Your choice of which car to buy is your choice alone

Not that God "cannot do these things ", but we need to be reasonable and stop thinking in extremes when I say God controls all things.He controls those things he deems necessary.


No you don't have to do it. Presumably god had a hind in giving you cancer and then remission from it if you wish to take that as proof of his existence well good luck to you.

I do not believe god exists and you are incapable of providing any proof beyond your own ramblings that you seem to make up as you go. Not so long ago you were saying your proof of god was the bible except you haven't read it.

I hope your faith gives you comfort I really do but really it's just for you and you alone you have nothing for anyone else.

Posted by ahso

Not at all. We're discussing how it is that you arrive at the thoughts you communicate. It is clear that they have little basis in reality and are bits and pieces taken from here and there in order to form what you are calling your "message". The only message you're sending is that you're a very confused person.


You have to understand that when a poster such as yourself posts threads that are unique in which the sources he or she cites have completely different content and contextual meaning to what the poster is presenting, readers are going to inevitably ask why. That's what gmc and I have done. It may be that posters will often engage in this sort of analysis behind the scene thru private messaging. I prefer to be upfront and honest so to not hide thoughts from those I'm talking about. But when you put yourself out there like this you're going to be subject to criticism.




I'd agree with ahso in this. It's frustrating as it's impossible to have a good stand up argument with someone like yourself in fact I find most religious posters are the same they just ignore as untrue anything that conflicts with their world view the worst are the ones that are unaware of the tenets of the religion they supposedly hold so dear.

One of the first acts of the christian church when it bacame mainstream was to shut down all the philosophy schools and destroy any philosophical thought or knowledge that hinted man might be master of his own fate just as isis do nowadays. When christianity ruled in europe we called it the dark ages. I started this thread out of interest to see what people thopught about the catholic church beginning to come out of the dark ages sadly protestants are just as bad hence the reference to the bible belt in the states.

Now they have a president that ignores reality being bcheered on by the numpty chorus, ah well.
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Post by Mickiel »

Design is design, and good grief it obviously suggest there is a designer. Hey, art highly suggest there is an artist. Nature is obviously a canvas of a great awesome artist, but the scale is so great it's just hard for some to believe that. In order for a thing to design itself it must first create a mold of itself in some alternit dimension, then decide on a final draft and then bring that into our reality. God is an individual that had an artist in Christ, and we see their final result.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509798 wrote: No you don't have to do it. Presumably god had a hind in giving you cancer and then remission from it if you wish to take that as proof of his existence well good luck to you.

I do not believe god exists and you are incapable of providing any proof beyond your own ramblings that you seem to make up as you go. Not so long ago you were saying your proof of god was the bible except you haven't read it.

I hope your faith gives you comfort I really do but really it's just for you and you alone you have nothing for anyone else.

Posted by ahso





I'd agree with ahso in this. It's frustrating as it's impossible to have a good stand up argument with someone like yourself in fact I find most religious posters are the same they just ignore as untrue anything that conflicts with their world view the worst are the ones that are unaware of the tenets of the religion they supposedly hold so dear.

One of the first acts of the christian church when it bacame mainstream was to shut down all the philosophy schools and destroy any philosophical thought or knowledge that hinted man might be master of his own fate just as isis do nowadays. When christianity ruled in europe we called it the dark ages. I started this thread out of interest to see what people thopught about the catholic church beginning to come out of the dark ages sadly protestants are just as bad hence the reference to the bible belt in the states.

Now they have a president that ignores reality being bcheered on by the numpty chorus, ah well.


My cancer came from smoking and God has never handed me a cigarette or brought me a pack. I think he could have prevented it if he wanted to, that much I know. He has a definite way of making all things work a certain way. In my view my ramblings make a sense of their own, it is unfortunate that you have absolutely no sense whatever as to the sense I make. But you know how that is, neither one of us will lose any sleep over it.
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Post by Ted »

The only problem I have with this issue is some want to tar everyone with the same brush.
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1509808 wrote: My cancer came from smoking and God has never handed me a cigarette or brought me a pack. I think he could have prevented it if he wanted to, that much I know. He has a definite way of making all things work a certain way. In my view my ramblings make a sense of their own, it is unfortunate that you have absolutely no sense whatever as to the sense I make. But you know how that is, neither one of us will lose any sleep over it.


But it wasn't your choice if you don't have free will.

Design is design, and good grief it obviously suggest there is a designer. Hey, art highly suggest there is an artist. Nature is obviously a canvas of a great awesome artist, but the scale is so great it's just hard for some to believe that. In order for a thing to design itself it must first create a mold of itself in some alternit dimension, then decide on a final draft and then bring that into our reality. God is an individual that had an artist in Christ, and we see their final result.




No it doesn't. To conclude there must be a designer because you can't explain how else something came in to existence is false logic. It's a bit like me saying the non-existence of goid must be true because there is no evidence to prove that his non-existence is false. You just don't have enough information to decide either way I prefer not to believe in made up god figures.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509812 wrote: But it wasn't your choice if you don't have free will.



No it doesn't. To conclude there must be a designer because you can't explain how else something came in to existence is false logic. It's a bit like me saying the non-existence of goid must be true because there is no evidence to prove that his non-existence is false. You just don't have enough information to decide either way I prefer not to believe in made up god figures.


Free will is a myth, a fallacy that I am no longer deceived by: there is no such thing as free will. We have a will but our Will is impacted by many things that we are held captive by, outside influences and even unseen influences that we have no control over. Other people, the media, life circumstances, all factor into keeping our minds from being free.
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Post by Ted »

Just like pure objectivity is a myth.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Ted;1509865 wrote: Just like pure objectivity is a myth.


True, we are weak and slaves to our emotions to a greater or lesser extent.
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1509813 wrote: Free will is a myth, a fallacy that I am no longer deceived by: there is no such thing as free will. We have a will but our Will is impacted by many things that we are held captive by, outside influences and even unseen influences that we have no control over. Other people, the media, life circumstances, all factor into keeping our minds from being free.


You really don't read anybody elses posts do you.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1509879 wrote: You really don't read anybody elses posts do you.


Why do you ask?
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