Are the junior doctors handling their dispute like the Euro remainers ?
Apart from knowing they are right (like the remainers) they haven't put up any good arguments for their decision to hold 5 day strikes.
Can anyone tell me what exactly is current their position
Junior Doctors
Junior Doctors
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Junior Doctors
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Junior Doctors
G#Gill;1500715 wrote: www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/01 ... ors-strike
Hope this helps a little bit, Bruv.
Not really Gilly, the information is not very specific.
Basically the government says it has to make changes and the junior doctors say it's not reasonable.
I don't know what the agreement they are imposing changes, and what the doctors are objecting to, neither side has put all their cards on the table.
Hunt claims there are only two issues to be resolved: Saturday pay and automatic pay rises for part-time workers. He says the new contract offers reasonable deals on both. Junior doctors say that what is being offered is unreasonable. They remained concerned about the impact on those working less than full time, a majority of whom are women, and the impact on junior doctors working the most weekend. The BMA says the contract fuels a workforce crisis, and fails to treat all doctors fairly.
Hope this helps a little bit, Bruv.
Not really Gilly, the information is not very specific.
Basically the government says it has to make changes and the junior doctors say it's not reasonable.
I don't know what the agreement they are imposing changes, and what the doctors are objecting to, neither side has put all their cards on the table.
Hunt claims there are only two issues to be resolved: Saturday pay and automatic pay rises for part-time workers. He says the new contract offers reasonable deals on both. Junior doctors say that what is being offered is unreasonable. They remained concerned about the impact on those working less than full time, a majority of whom are women, and the impact on junior doctors working the most weekend. The BMA says the contract fuels a workforce crisis, and fails to treat all doctors fairly.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Junior Doctors
Bruv;1500714 wrote: Are the junior doctors handling their dispute like the Euro remainers ?
Apart from knowing they are right (like the remainers) they haven't put up any good arguments for their decision to hold 5 day strikes.
Can anyone tell me what exactly is current their position
That kind of says it all doesn't it? It's difficult to find out what the junior doctors are saying because it doesn't get reported. Jeremy Hunt who quite openly has set about privatising the NHS has backed the doctors in to a corner where they have no option but to go on strike. If you turn round and say to employees we are imposing a change of contract like it or lump it it's hardly a surprise when people object.It's not as thiough doctors and nurses can be easily replaced
The doctors offered to keep working if the Government does not impose the new contract on them, so Jeremy Hunt could easily prevent the strikes and keep negotiating.
Hunt wants them to work seven days a week (they already do but get paid for it as additional hours) but without providing any extra fuding or staff to do the job. In effect do more for less money and forget any kind of worthwhile freetime. Many operation are already cancelled due to a lack of staff being open at weekends for routine operations is all very well but you need the staff and the funding. This isn't just junior doctors it affects nurses as well. The right wing press portray it as a political decision taken by a militant few agaimstb the wishes of the mah=jority and that is quite simply not the case. By the way scotland Northern ireland and wales are not involved they have chosen not to impose this kind of contract.
Apart from knowing they are right (like the remainers) they haven't put up any good arguments for their decision to hold 5 day strikes.
Can anyone tell me what exactly is current their position
That kind of says it all doesn't it? It's difficult to find out what the junior doctors are saying because it doesn't get reported. Jeremy Hunt who quite openly has set about privatising the NHS has backed the doctors in to a corner where they have no option but to go on strike. If you turn round and say to employees we are imposing a change of contract like it or lump it it's hardly a surprise when people object.It's not as thiough doctors and nurses can be easily replaced
The doctors offered to keep working if the Government does not impose the new contract on them, so Jeremy Hunt could easily prevent the strikes and keep negotiating.
Hunt wants them to work seven days a week (they already do but get paid for it as additional hours) but without providing any extra fuding or staff to do the job. In effect do more for less money and forget any kind of worthwhile freetime. Many operation are already cancelled due to a lack of staff being open at weekends for routine operations is all very well but you need the staff and the funding. This isn't just junior doctors it affects nurses as well. The right wing press portray it as a political decision taken by a militant few agaimstb the wishes of the mah=jority and that is quite simply not the case. By the way scotland Northern ireland and wales are not involved they have chosen not to impose this kind of contract.
Junior Doctors
If striking junior doctors cause any hospital to bring in and pay agency staff, they are breaking the law. Hospitals were warned last year that they are open to lawsuits should they do this. The law was updated in 2003 from the original, set out in 1973. There are many counter claims by the medical board. They state that the amount of hours Junior Doctor's actually work, has been decreasing under the new contract. The new deal allows a maximum of 72 hours to be worked instead of the original 91. At the moment, they do not have to work more than 48 hours although they can opt out of this due to the European Working Time Directive and work up to 56 hours should they choose. The strikes have been glorified as hours worked but in essence, it's about pay and the amount of pay for weekends.
Junior Doctors
I must admit to not following it very closely, but thought they had come to an agreement.
Then the new ice maiden Theresa told the doctors to stop playing politics, after NOT dropping Hunt who has proved to be a good Tory by winding the Unions up big time.
It is all PR as I see it, the NHS is in crisis and so it's all the bad lefty Junior Doctors fault.
Meanwhile my local hospital has a private hospital built on the same site, gives me a bad taste in my mouth..................cos we all know private health care is a cash cow, while the NHS is is a bottomless pit.
Maybe we are all being played.
Then the new ice maiden Theresa told the doctors to stop playing politics, after NOT dropping Hunt who has proved to be a good Tory by winding the Unions up big time.
It is all PR as I see it, the NHS is in crisis and so it's all the bad lefty Junior Doctors fault.
Meanwhile my local hospital has a private hospital built on the same site, gives me a bad taste in my mouth..................cos we all know private health care is a cash cow, while the NHS is is a bottomless pit.
Maybe we are all being played.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Junior Doctors
Bruv;1500732 wrote: I must admit to not following it very closely, but thought they had come to an agreement.
Then the new ice maiden Theresa told the doctors to stop playing politics, after NOT dropping Hunt who has proved to be a good Tory by winding the Unions up big time.
It is all PR as I see it, the NHS is in crisis and so it's all the bad lefty Junior Doctors fault.
Meanwhile my local hospital has a private hospital built on the same site, gives me a bad taste in my mouth..................cos we all know private health care is a cash cow, while the NHS is is a bottomless pit.
Maybe we are all being played.
It's widely believed, we are heading toward privatisation. Last year, the NHS paid out 780 million to private firms to help with the backlog of heart, and major surgeries along with scans. When free health care is paying millions to private firms, then something is seriously wrong or deviously underhand. I tend to believe it is by stealth, the long road from NHS to privatisation in a manner which the public don't realise is happening.
Then the new ice maiden Theresa told the doctors to stop playing politics, after NOT dropping Hunt who has proved to be a good Tory by winding the Unions up big time.
It is all PR as I see it, the NHS is in crisis and so it's all the bad lefty Junior Doctors fault.
Meanwhile my local hospital has a private hospital built on the same site, gives me a bad taste in my mouth..................cos we all know private health care is a cash cow, while the NHS is is a bottomless pit.
Maybe we are all being played.
It's widely believed, we are heading toward privatisation. Last year, the NHS paid out 780 million to private firms to help with the backlog of heart, and major surgeries along with scans. When free health care is paying millions to private firms, then something is seriously wrong or deviously underhand. I tend to believe it is by stealth, the long road from NHS to privatisation in a manner which the public don't realise is happening.
Junior Doctors
Then we must get off our collective butts and shout loudly.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Junior Doctors
This is exactly what is happening in Australia. And its scary.
But who is behind the push for two entire countries to lose their free healthcare?
But who is behind the push for two entire countries to lose their free healthcare?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Junior Doctors
magentaflame;1500757 wrote: This is exactly what is happening in Australia. And its scary.
But who is behind the push for two entire countries to lose their free healthcare?
Follow the money - look at all the polictians whose outseide interests include shares in private healthcare companies and don;t assume they have anyone's interests but their own at heart.
In the case of the tories they have always been opposed to the principle of nationalisation the onlky reason thatcher didnt doismantle the nhs in her day is becauise she wouldn't have got away with it. Thanks to our first opast the post electoral system most people in this country are effectively disenfranchised the tories do niot have a mandate to rule - not when you look at what percentage of the electorate actually supported them.
Jeremy Hunt co-authored book calling for NHS to be replaced with private insurance | The Independent
Jeremy Hunt co-authored book calling for NHS to be replaced with private insurance
read the book yourself if you want
https://whatwouldvirchowdo.files.wordpr ... _party.pdf
The brexit vote rather than reclaiming our democracy has handed it obver to the fascists.
At the moment, they do not have to work more than 48 hours although they can opt out of this due to the European Working Time Directive and work up to 56 hours should they choose. The strikes have been glorified as hours worked but in essence, it's about pay and the amount of pay for weekends.
You've got that back to front, any emloyer can ask their employees to opt out of the european working directive and get them to work as many hours as they like i.e more than the 56. Sign the contract or get another job you have to be seruiously delided if you think that is actually a choice. That is the "choice being offrd to junior doctors strike action is all thy have left to defnd their rights.
But who is behind the push for two entire countries to lose their free healthcare?
Follow the money - look at all the polictians whose outseide interests include shares in private healthcare companies and don;t assume they have anyone's interests but their own at heart.
In the case of the tories they have always been opposed to the principle of nationalisation the onlky reason thatcher didnt doismantle the nhs in her day is becauise she wouldn't have got away with it. Thanks to our first opast the post electoral system most people in this country are effectively disenfranchised the tories do niot have a mandate to rule - not when you look at what percentage of the electorate actually supported them.
Jeremy Hunt co-authored book calling for NHS to be replaced with private insurance | The Independent
Jeremy Hunt co-authored book calling for NHS to be replaced with private insurance
read the book yourself if you want
https://whatwouldvirchowdo.files.wordpr ... _party.pdf
The brexit vote rather than reclaiming our democracy has handed it obver to the fascists.
At the moment, they do not have to work more than 48 hours although they can opt out of this due to the European Working Time Directive and work up to 56 hours should they choose. The strikes have been glorified as hours worked but in essence, it's about pay and the amount of pay for weekends.
You've got that back to front, any emloyer can ask their employees to opt out of the european working directive and get them to work as many hours as they like i.e more than the 56. Sign the contract or get another job you have to be seruiously delided if you think that is actually a choice. That is the "choice being offrd to junior doctors strike action is all thy have left to defnd their rights.
Junior Doctors
gmc;1500759 wrote:
You've got that back to front, any emloyer can ask their employees to opt out of the european working directive and get them to work as many hours as they like i.e more than the 56. Sign the contract or get another job you have to be seruiously delided if you think that is actually a choice. That is the "choice being offrd to junior doctors strike action is all thy have left to defnd their rights.
First of all, the notion that this is all about junior doctor's is false. That is spin in order to summon up public support. The new contract applies to all doctor's below consultant level.
This is all about pay. The old contract paid a standard rate for shifts with hours between 7 am to 7 pm Monday to Friday. Junior doctors could have worked outside of this under the banding rules and increased their earnings up to 50 % for working outside of these hours. The new contract would see the hours classed as standard, increased by 30 hours a week and will include 7 am to 10 pm Monday to Saturday. That would see doctors getting paid the same rate for working a Saturday night as they would a Tuesday morning, and that is the crux of the strike action, pay.
You've got that back to front, any emloyer can ask their employees to opt out of the european working directive and get them to work as many hours as they like i.e more than the 56. Sign the contract or get another job you have to be seruiously delided if you think that is actually a choice. That is the "choice being offrd to junior doctors strike action is all thy have left to defnd their rights.
First of all, the notion that this is all about junior doctor's is false. That is spin in order to summon up public support. The new contract applies to all doctor's below consultant level.
This is all about pay. The old contract paid a standard rate for shifts with hours between 7 am to 7 pm Monday to Friday. Junior doctors could have worked outside of this under the banding rules and increased their earnings up to 50 % for working outside of these hours. The new contract would see the hours classed as standard, increased by 30 hours a week and will include 7 am to 10 pm Monday to Saturday. That would see doctors getting paid the same rate for working a Saturday night as they would a Tuesday morning, and that is the crux of the strike action, pay.
Junior Doctors
The new contract applies to all doctor's below consultant level.
Junior Doctors ?
Junior Doctors ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Junior Doctors
Bruv;1500796 wrote: Junior Doctors ? No. Any doctor under a consultant and the definition of consultant is the title of a hospital based senior physician or surgeon who has been placed on the specialist register, in their own chosen field. Under them would be general practitioners and GP's.
Junior Doctors
Momus;1500798 wrote: No. Any doctor under a consultant and the definition of consultant is the title of a hospital based senior physician or surgeon who has been placed on the specialist register, in their own chosen field. Under them would be general practitioners and GP's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_doctor
junior doctors are qualified medical practitioners who are working whilst engaged in postgraduate training to become a consultant or a GP. The period of being a junior doctor starts when they qualify as a medical practitioner following graduation with Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery degrees, and culminates in a post as a Consultant, a General Practitioner (GP), or some other non-training post, such as a Staff grade or Associate Specialist post.
A general practitioner is the same thing as a GP, GP being the initials. GP's do not come under consultants they run their own practices.
The old contract paid a standard rate for shifts with hours between 7 am to 7 pm Monday to Friday. Junior doctors could have worked outside of this under the banding rules and increased their earnings up to 50 % for working outside of these hours. The new contract would see the hours classed as standard, increased by 30 hours a week and will include 7 am to 10 pm Monday to Saturday. That would see doctors getting paid the same rate for working a Saturday night as they would a Tuesday morning, and that is the crux of the strike action, pay.
In short they are being forced to work longer hours for less money and with no extra staff or doctors being planned for. No wonder they are on strike. Can you tell me any other occupation where a 60 hour week (soon to be 90 hours under the new contract) is the accepted norm? (actually I know of several but people working in them are not making life or death decisions). The coverage this is receiving is veru heavily biased against the doctors in support iof a government that makes no secret of wanting to end the NHS.
You do realise that 7am to 7pm monday to friday is a 60 hour week don't you? Tell me would you accvept a contract of ninety hours a week for less money than you currently get. If the goivernment wants to cit the nhs overtime and agency bill then they need to employ more staff.
How many hours a week do you think jeremy hunt works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_doctor
junior doctors are qualified medical practitioners who are working whilst engaged in postgraduate training to become a consultant or a GP. The period of being a junior doctor starts when they qualify as a medical practitioner following graduation with Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery degrees, and culminates in a post as a Consultant, a General Practitioner (GP), or some other non-training post, such as a Staff grade or Associate Specialist post.
A general practitioner is the same thing as a GP, GP being the initials. GP's do not come under consultants they run their own practices.
The old contract paid a standard rate for shifts with hours between 7 am to 7 pm Monday to Friday. Junior doctors could have worked outside of this under the banding rules and increased their earnings up to 50 % for working outside of these hours. The new contract would see the hours classed as standard, increased by 30 hours a week and will include 7 am to 10 pm Monday to Saturday. That would see doctors getting paid the same rate for working a Saturday night as they would a Tuesday morning, and that is the crux of the strike action, pay.
In short they are being forced to work longer hours for less money and with no extra staff or doctors being planned for. No wonder they are on strike. Can you tell me any other occupation where a 60 hour week (soon to be 90 hours under the new contract) is the accepted norm? (actually I know of several but people working in them are not making life or death decisions). The coverage this is receiving is veru heavily biased against the doctors in support iof a government that makes no secret of wanting to end the NHS.
You do realise that 7am to 7pm monday to friday is a 60 hour week don't you? Tell me would you accvept a contract of ninety hours a week for less money than you currently get. If the goivernment wants to cit the nhs overtime and agency bill then they need to employ more staff.
How many hours a week do you think jeremy hunt works.
Junior Doctors
GP's can also be hospital practitioners. Mine is.
Junior Doctors
Momus;1500811 wrote: GP's can also be hospital practitioners. Mine is.
And he's not under the control of a consuktant is he?
The government have already made si-ure there will be shortage if nurses in the future
https://www.nursingtimes.net/exclusive- ... 33.article
I really do not understand how anyone can believe anythuing the health minister says on the subject.
And he's not under the control of a consuktant is he?
The government have already made si-ure there will be shortage if nurses in the future
https://www.nursingtimes.net/exclusive- ... 33.article
I really do not understand how anyone can believe anythuing the health minister says on the subject.
Junior Doctors
There is only one real answer to having a "7 Day NHS", as Hunt defines it, and that is to take on at least 30% more Doctors, so as to fully cover the additional 2 weekend days without having to impose additional hours on the existing doctors. This, of course, would also involve the recruitment of 30% extra of all the other staff required. Of course, I would welcome an additional 30% investment in the NHS budget. However, Hunt is aiming to do so whilst cutting back on spending.
The fact remains, though, that we already have a 7 Day NHS. The only difference is that non-emergency procedures tend not to be carried out over the weekends. This means that only those who are in more urgent need of care are admitted over the weekend, which is why the mortality rate is substantially higher at weekends. It is nothing to do with standards of care at weekends being any lower.
Ever since they did away with the Matrons running the wards, bureaucracy has gone wild, with the whole system being run by people who know nothing about what it is they're dealing with. After all, just what qualifications, or even training does Jeremy Hunt have in anything to do with medicine? Yet he continues to argue against the BMA, who DO know what they're talking about. In my opinion, Cabinet ministers should, at least, have to be experienced in the field for which they are responsible.
The fact remains, though, that we already have a 7 Day NHS. The only difference is that non-emergency procedures tend not to be carried out over the weekends. This means that only those who are in more urgent need of care are admitted over the weekend, which is why the mortality rate is substantially higher at weekends. It is nothing to do with standards of care at weekends being any lower.
Ever since they did away with the Matrons running the wards, bureaucracy has gone wild, with the whole system being run by people who know nothing about what it is they're dealing with. After all, just what qualifications, or even training does Jeremy Hunt have in anything to do with medicine? Yet he continues to argue against the BMA, who DO know what they're talking about. In my opinion, Cabinet ministers should, at least, have to be experienced in the field for which they are responsible.
Junior Doctors
The higher weekend mortality rates are questionable too.
Fewer people die in hospital at weekends
Hospital weekend death rate ‘not just NHS problem’
Fewer people die in hospital at weekends
Hospital weekend death rate ‘not just NHS problem’
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Junior Doctors
Ha, just watching an interview with a top aussie doctor/surgeon. Says he made more money working as a bouncer in his first years of medicine. Nice to know after a bouncer has pummelled you, he can also administer first aid. Lol
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Junior Doctors
The irony is that the only job jeremy hunt is qualified to do in a hospital were he to try for one is that of a porter or janitor.
Junior Doctors
Southern Health boss Katrina Percy had new job 'created for her'
Trust Chairman Tim Smart, who has been in his post for four months, said it did not advertise the role but that the work the job entails - giving strategic advice to GPs - "needed to be done", describing Ms Percy as "uniquely qualified".
Do they think we are all stupid ?
They may be right.......................is the frightening answer.
Trust Chairman Tim Smart, who has been in his post for four months, said it did not advertise the role but that the work the job entails - giving strategic advice to GPs - "needed to be done", describing Ms Percy as "uniquely qualified".
Do they think we are all stupid ?
They may be right.......................is the frightening answer.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth