Justice for Harambe

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Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

There are calls for the parents of the 4 year old to be held responsible for the death of the gorilla following the child getting into the animal's enclosure.



Fury after gorilla shot when boy crawled into enclosure

What about the Zoo's barrier ?
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Bruv;1496410 wrote: There are calls for the parents of the 4 year old to be held responsible for the death of the gorilla following the child getting into the animal's enclosure.



Fury after gorilla shot when boy crawled into enclosure

What about the Zoo's barrier ?


I don't know whether the shooting was an over reaction of whether the child's life was in imminent danger but, as you say, questions have got to be asked as to how boy got into the enclosure and how carefully the parents were watching.
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Post by spot »

Child falls into gorilla enclosure in the UK, gorilla pronounced a hero and has a statue cast in bronze... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambo

Child falls into gorilla enclosure in pre-Homeland-Security America, gorilla pronounced a hero... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binti_Jua

America exists today in a state of abject self-induced terror.

Gorillas don't kill defenceless children, unmanned combat aerial vehicle pilots kill defenceless children.

Cincinnati Zoo is an utter disgrace and as such represents post-Bush America perfectly.
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Post by Bruv »

spot;1496413 wrote: Child falls into gorilla enclosure in the UK, gorilla pronounced a hero and has a statue cast in bronze... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambo

Child falls into gorilla enclosure in pre-Homeland-Security America, gorilla pronounced a hero... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binti_Jua

America exists today in a state of abject self-induced terror.

Gorillas don't kill defenceless children, unmanned combat aerial vehicle pilots kill defenceless children.

Cincinnati Zoo is an utter disgrace and as such represents post-Bush America perfectly.


Woweee !!!!

Child squeezing through an inadequate barrier and the resulting over reaction by gorilla experts is the result of America's foreign policy ?

"Jambo stood guard over the boy when he was unconscious, placing himself between the boy and other gorillas" The other gorillas were not dangerous then ?

If my four year old child had been dragged around in water as seen on the video, I would have been fearful of the outcome myself. Whether the gorilla had intention to harm the child or not.
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Post by LarsMac »

Got in to an interesting discussion about that, elsewhere.

Watching the video, I think the Gorilla got extremely agitated by all the shrieking and screaming of spectators, and the zoo people felt he was becoming unstable. It really is sad that they felt the need to kill him.

Yes, the parents should have been watching the kid better. On the other hand, if you have been around many 4-year-olds, you probably know that they have a knack for taking advantage of that split-second that nobody actually has an eye on them to execute the most devious plan they can devise. The zoo does need to figure out how the enclosure was breached, and improve their defenses.

On the other hand, I think the zoos should implement a policy of animals first in such cases. If your brats strays into animal territory, they are considered forfeit.

In the sixties, in Florida, a wild animal park called Lion Country Safari opened up. They had signs at the boundaries that read "Private Property. Trespassers will be eaten" and along the visitor routes that read, "warning: Stray children will be eaten."

Of course, these days, people might find it the perfect opportunity to dispose of unwanted rugrats.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Should the parents be held responsible?

The child told his parents several times he was going to go into the enclosure.

One should've had a tight hold on that child.

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Post by spot »

Bruv;1496416 wrote: Child squeezing through an inadequate barrier and the resulting over reaction by gorilla experts is the result of America's foreign policy ? For the avoidance of doubt, and if we can also factor in the hysterical onlooker reaction, yes it is. Definitively and without any question whatever. Why else do you think America changed so radically.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

spot;1496439 wrote: For the avoidance of doubt, and if we can also factor in the hysterical onlooker reaction, yes it is. Definitively and without any question whatever. Why else do you think America changed so radically.


You don't know what you're talking about, & acting like you do doesn't make it so.
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Post by spot »

There was no crowd hysteria?

The gorilla's alive?
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

That isn't what I quoted you as saying, my response was for your opinion, not the fact of the gorilla being dead. The onlookers were noisy, it is your judgement they were 'hysterical.' Are you being deliberately obtuse, or should I think the worst?

eta--reports of hysteria were mostly found in British & European press, & you have no proof anyone anywhere would have behaved differently in such a situation.
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Post by spot »

The present state of America should be a matter of absolute shame to every American, and the gorilla should still be alive.
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Post by Bruv »

In order of blame for the death of a captive gorilla......

1st......The Zoo for the inadequate barriers that failed to separate potentially dangerous animals from the paying public.

2nd.....The parents for trusting the zoo designers to protect their children with suitable barriers.

3rd......The lack of a zoo public address system to advise the crowd to remain quiet and calm.

...........coming in at about 5000th the Bay of Pigs carry on
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

spot;1496448 wrote: The present state of America should be a matter of absolute shame to every American, and the gorilla should still be alive.


You sound like Donald Trump, with your generalized insults. You are no better than him. You are a spot of trump.

I have nothing to be ashamed of. Except calling you a turd. You are an immature, tiny spot of a man. Sick of your constant BS, or is it an attempt to keep the site going? It's an investment for you, after all, why not try being obnoxious, it does work for Trump.
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Post by spot »

Quite why a specific insult should be less offensive than a generalized one I'm not altogether sure.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I'm not going to play your silly game. I have always liked & respected you, hope that's not fading to past tense.
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Post by spot »

Bruv;1496449 wrote: ...........coming in at about 5000th the Bay of Pigs carry onI did, if you check, explicitly cite the Bush Administration. You're trying to dilute the focus from the deliberate ratcheting up of terror-fear in America by The Project for the New American Century.
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Post by spot »

AnneBoleyn;1496447 wrote: eta--reports of hysteria were mostly found in British & European press, & you have no proof anyone anywhere would have behaved differently in such a situation.


I suggest you listen to the polite applause at the end of this NBCNews report. Watch and learn, bairns.

As for reports of hysteria, I was going by Lars' comment that "the Gorilla got extremely agitated by all the shrieking and screaming of spectators" - I've seen no video coverage. Though if you insist it didn't happen I'll go and find a clip.
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Post by FourPart »

From the footage I saw, the gorilla clearly saw the shrieking crowd as a threat & placed himself between the child & the threat, initially while trapped in a corner. Then he made a run to more open ground. The 'dragging' looked worse than it was by the splashing of the water, but he was clearly defending the child in just the same way as he would defend one of his own young. Gorillas, by nature, are very gentle creatures but also very defensive. If the crowd hadn't have been so hysterical the whole situation probably wouldn't have arisen.
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Post by LarsMac »

AnneBoleyn;1496447 wrote: That isn't what I quoted you as saying, my response was for your opinion, not the fact of the gorilla being dead. The onlookers were noisy, it is your judgement they were 'hysterical.' Are you being deliberately obtuse, or should I think the worst?

eta--reports of hysteria were mostly found in British & European press, & you have no proof anyone anywhere would have behaved differently in such a situation.


Well, in the video, you can definitely hear a lot of crowd noise - shrieking and yelling, and it seems rather obvious that the fellow was reacting to it, and becoming more agitated.

I don't agree that it had a thing to do with the crowd being American.
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Post by LarsMac »

I cannot believe some of the comments made by many people about this event. (Not here, but on FB, and Twitter, and another forum I frequent) There have been death threats to the family of the child, calls to prosecute the mother, calls to have her other children removed from her care, all sorts of wild-eyed loonies out there.

I am saddened that the gorilla was killed. Yes, there should be some responsibility here. The Zoo should review the enclosures and try to ensure that such a thing cannot happen again. It is their responsibility to protect their charges from endangerment. It would seem that they failed Harambe in that regard.

The parents must re-think how they mind their children. A four-year-old cannot remain unsupervised for even a second. They WILL find whatever trouble there is to be found.

It would be wise for the zoo to explore the acoustics of the enclosures to see how different sounds are carried and echoed throughout the area. Yelling and shrieking from the crowd, echoing about the enclosure, particularly off the concrete walls near the moat very likely contributed to Harambe's agitation and complicated the entire situation.
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Post by Bruv »

So in your considered opinion Bush escapes any blame ?

I would go along with everything you said, although the acoustics wouldn't matter too much if the barrier was suitable.
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Post by spot »

Might I throw in a further consideration not yet raised?

The problem would not have arisen had the gorilla not been regarded, and treated, as property.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Does the UK have zoos? animal exhibit of any kind?

just curious?

If so - who's responsible for that animal?

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Post by spot »

Patsy Warnick;1496485 wrote: If so - who's responsible for that animal?


The rules are described in https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... actice.pdf

Just reeding the Introduction ought to answer the question. No zoo can exist here without a government license and has to comply with the oversight and regulations outlined in the paper.

I doubt any such provisions exist in the US but I'd be interested to discover I'm wrong.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Thanks Spot

No I didn't get UK government provisions from the intro.

I will have to acknowledge there's a need for improvements in our zoos/exhibits.

Safety for all should be the up most important goal.

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Post by LarsMac »

Patsy Warnick;1496430 wrote: Should the parents be held responsible?

The child told his parents several times he was going to go into the enclosure.

One should've had a tight hold on that child.

Patsy


The parents are responsible for their brat, and should have kept a better eye on him.

However, the ultimate responsibility for the safety of the animals in the zoo must fall to the zoo, itself.

The barrier was obviously vulnerable to penetration by a determined four-year-old, and both the parents and zoo staff must share in the responsibility for the outcome, in my opinion.

I do not know that there are any federal guidelines for zoo enclosures. I doubt that. There are quite enough federal guidelines, these days, it seems. At some point local authority and the citizenry must be left to figure things out for themselves.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Lars

I agree with you 100 %.

The child told his parents several times " he was going in there" "I want to go in there".

How could the parent NOT hold that child?

The barrier - I've seen many gorilla areas set up similar - some scared me - too close - not enough security for the public. I remember asking - can he get out?

I don't believe there are any Gov't. regulations - but as the public screams things will change. Peta

I remember a zoo in CA - you could ride a elephant around the zoo - yrs ago.

Peta wouldn't allow that.

Regulations- new rules/laws will be put in place from this incident.

It's sad - but I'll take human life over a animal.

I feel authorities made the right choice for the situation.

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Post by Patsy Warnick »

OH, I forgot - the parents may now have a law suit for that barrier or lack of.

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Post by spot »

LarsMac;1496489 wrote: At some point local authority and the citizenry must be left to figure things out for themselves.That was the Antebellum protocol for specifying civil rights, as I recall.
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Post by Bruv »

The child should have been better supervised no doubt about that,but the onus must be on the zoo to protect the animals and visitors from each other, a four year old should not be able to enter a area designated for animals.
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Post by LarsMac »

spot;1496498 wrote: That was the Antebellum protocol for specifying civil rights, as I recall.


True. The line between Federal and local authority has been moving about ever since your redcoats were sent packing. I suspect it will continue to be adjusted until we fall off the planet. Only History will ever show which shifts were for the better.

The gummint cannot control every single aspect of life. The few that tried have proved that well enough.
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Post by Saint_ »

spot;1496413 wrote: Child falls into gorilla enclosure in the UK, gorilla pronounced a hero and has a statue cast in bronze... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambo

Child falls into gorilla enclosure in pre-Homeland-Security America, gorilla pronounced a hero... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binti_Jua

America exists today in a state of abject self-induced terror.

Gorillas don't kill defenceless children, unmanned combat aerial vehicle pilots kill defenceless children.

Cincinnati Zoo is an utter disgrace and as such represents post-Bush America perfectly.


Hahaha. Spot, not everything in the world is politically motivated, linked, or even a political allegory. Sometimes tragedies happen. The world is not a safe place ever.

The barrier was put into place in 1978 and functioned perfectly for over a third of a century. Who knew a rambunctious child could not only get through the fence without being seen by any of the many bystanders, but then manage to crawl through a dense, spiky hedge, and even manage to tumble down a high wall which a young child would normally instinctively avoid?

It's not the parents fault, it's not the child's fault, it's not the gorilla's fault, it's not the zookeeper's fault.

It's not anyone's fault. There is such a thing, you know, although people today are hard-pressed to remember that.
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Post by spot »

Personally I blame God, and with good cause.
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Post by Saint_ »

spot;1496504 wrote: Personally I blame God, and with good cause.


That's the spirit!
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Post by spot »

Saint_;1496505 wrote: That's the spirit!


It's on good authority... let me find the quote from yesterday's news report.

Here we are - the BBC quoting the mother, writing on her Facebook page: "God protected my child until the authorities were able to get to him."

God help the gorillas then, if that's the way things are seen to work in the US. The Ayatollahs in Iran have no more backward a world view.
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Post by LarsMac »

spot;1496504 wrote: Personally I blame God, and with good cause.


Well, why not? He gets the tag for everything else.
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Post by spot »

What's more, I would not devalue any human life but I see no reason why that of any gorilla shouldn't be recognized as more precious, and many good reasons why it should be. As a species we owe an overriding duty of care, given the way we've behaved.
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Post by FourPart »

It may seem 'bigoted' of sorts, but from what I have observed, Americans tend to react in a much louder & screechier way to people in the UK, for instance, who have a worldwide notoriety for being very much more reserved (although I think, perhaps, the increasing level of multi-culturism may be changing this), and I can't help but wonder how a similar crowd of Brits might have reacted under similar circumstances.

It seems that it was this emotive reaction that was mainly responsible for the incident. I can't fully blame the Mother, as anyone who has been in custody of a toddler knows full well that they have a innate talent for slipping away when you least expect it & getting through the most inaccessible holes. As for the death threats. That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. There are fanatics out there who would make death threats on workers at McDonalds for taking part in the cooking of burgers. There are also those who simply make the threats with the intention of getting themselves a bit of publicity as well. In any incident they always pop out of the woodwork & as always in time it will all be forgotten, and no-one will even know who or what Harambe was.
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1496690 wrote: I can't help but wonder how a similar crowd of Brits might have reacted under similar circumstances.I gave the exact answer to that in post 17, linking to NBCNews.com Video Player and mentioning the polite scatter of applause at the end.
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Post by FourPart »

spot;1496693 wrote: I gave the exact answer to that in post 17, linking to NBCNews.com Video Player and mentioning the polite scatter of applause at the end.
An excellent demonstration. Practically an identical scenario, with an entirely different crowd reaction, and a totally different outcome.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

4Pt: "It may seem 'bigoted' of sorts, but from what I have observed, Americans tend to react in a much louder & screechier way to people in the UK...."

It's not bigoted, it's absolutely true.
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Post by spot »

"Our zoo family is still healing," director Thane Maynard told Associated Press in an email. "We are honouring Harambe by redoubling our gorilla conservation efforts and encouraging others to join us.''

Harambe the gorilla: Cincinnati Zoo 'not amused' by memes - BBC News



If director Thane Maynard has the slightest intention of "honouring Harambe" whatever that might mean (and I doubt those words are capable of meaning anything at all) he could start by permanently closing Cincinnati Zoo as a belated apology for his twisted corporate sense of priorities, after which he might personally consider a career path which excludes responsibility for the safety of any endangered species.
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Post by Saint_ »

spot;1500196 wrote:

If director Thane Maynard has the slightest intention of "honouring Harambe"... he could start by permanently closing Cincinnati Zoo


Yes, because depriving all the children of a city the opportunity to enjoy the animals and understand the importance of nature will solve everything.

Pfft.

It was an accident. Get over it, Spot.
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Post by spot »

Saint_;1500198 wrote: Yes, because depriving all the children of a city the opportunity to enjoy the animals and understand the importance of nature will solve everything.

Pfft.

It was an accident. Get over it, Spot.


I don't think anyone can pull the trigger of an aimed rifle and call the resulting death an accident. I've never complained about the child getting into the enclosure.

If the function of a zoo is to allow "all the children of a city the opportunity to enjoy the animals and understand the importance of nature" then every zoo in existence should close tomorrow, it would be too demeaning. What you describe is the function of the petting corner of a city farm. That might not translate well into US English, thinking about it.
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Saint_
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Justice for Harambe

Post by Saint_ »

spot;1500203 wrote: I don't think anyone can pull the trigger of an aimed rifle and call the resulting death an accident. I've never complained about the child getting into the enclosure.


So somehow in your mind you separate the two actions? The death of the gorilla was a consequence of the child falling in. They are not separate. Or would you rather the Gorilla had been saved and the child died?

If the function of a zoo is to allow "all the children of a city the opportunity to enjoy the animals and understand the importance of nature" then every zoo in existence should close tomorrow, it would be too demeaning. What you describe is the function of the petting corner of a city farm. That might not translate well into US English, thinking about it.


Of course that's the major function of a zoo! What do you go to the zoo for? Research? Without the families and customers, the zoo cannot stay in existence or feed its animals. A zoo is a business.
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Justice for Harambe

Post by spot »

Saint_;1500206 wrote: So somehow in your mind you separate the two actions? The death of the gorilla was a consequence of the child falling in. They are not separate. Or would you rather the Gorilla had been saved and the child died?
The death of Harambe was a consequence of the pre-existing management policy of Cincinnati Zoo.

The death of the child was by no means a certainty - I gave examples of previous occasions where gorillas were proclaimed a hero after a child in a similar circumstance was rescued.

Regardless, yes, I consider the life of Harambe - as a living instance of an endangered primate species - more valuable than the life of any pre-school child. I can think, off-hand, of no living human whose life I would consider more valuable than the one which was lost. To quote my own comment from earlier in this thread, As a species we owe an overriding duty of care, given the way we've behaved.



Of course that's the major function of a zoo! What do you go to the zoo for? Research? Without the families and customers, the zoo cannot stay in existence or feed its animals. A zoo is a business.
Allow me to quote from a UK government publication. We do things differently here.The EU Zoos Directive, which is underpinned by the Convention on Biodiversity (CBD) -

see www.cbd.int and Appendix 1 and which has been transposed into domestic law,

requires that all zoos implement the following conservation measures:

• participating in research from which conservation benefits accrue to the species,

and/or training in relevant conservation skills, and/or the exchange of information

relating to species conservation and/or where appropriate, captive breeding,

repopulation or reintroduction of species into the wild,

• promoting public education and awareness in relation to the conservation of

biodiversity, particularly by providing information about the species exhibited and

their natural habitats.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... dbook1.pdf

Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Justice for Harambe

Post by tude dog »

I had considered making a comment on this until,

spot;1500207 wrote:

I consider the life of Harambe - as a living instance of an endangered primate species - more valuable than the life of any pre-school child. I can think, off-hand, of no living human whose life I would consider more valuable than the one which was lost.
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Justice for Harambe

Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1500216 wrote: I had considered making a comment on this until,


I must agree with you Dawg...............and that doesn't happen very often.



No living human life more valuable than a captive gorilla's ?

Not worth discussing further.......no point.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Justice for Harambe

Post by Saint_ »

I am speechless...and that never happens to me.
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Justice for Harambe

Post by ZAP »

"Regardless, yes, I consider the life of Harambe - as a living instance of an endangered primate species - more valuable than the life of any pre-school child."

Harambe's life "more valuable than the life of any pre-school child"? Not "as valuable as" which to me would have been unacceptable also but to animal-rights activists and some others may have been seen as more palatable, but "more valuable than"? That is a horrible statement!
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