The fear of this site being religious

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FourPart
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by FourPart »

Religion is, in theory, peaceful. But is that what we see of Religion throughout history. Most certainly not. It's a case of "Submit to my idea of Peace, Love & Tolerance or I wil Torture you to Death". So many different Christian sects - Protestant, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, etc., etc. Each of them having their individual sub-sects. Each of them claiming that only theirs is the 'true' way. Then it's the same with Islam. Christians see Muslims as as heretics, whilst Muslims see Christians as infidels, yet they both supposedly have the same God & Jesus is even revered as a Prophet under Islam. Who would have thought it though?

Religion is just another way of coming up with a ground base for hate preaching.
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Post by Ted »

I can't agree with all of that but there are some 22000 Christian sects and yes, many claim to have the sole grasp of the truth. Now that is a joke.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1510395 wrote: Religion is, in theory, peaceful. But is that what we see of Religion throughout history. Most certainly not. It's a case of "Submit to my idea of Peace, Love & Tolerance or I wil Torture you to Death". So many different Christian sects - Protestant, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, etc., etc. Each of them having their individual sub-sects. Each of them claiming that only theirs is the 'true' way. Then it's the same with Islam. Christians see Muslims as as heretics, whilst Muslims see Christians as infidels, yet they both supposedly have the same God & Jesus is even revered as a Prophet under Islam. Who would have thought it though?

Religion is just another way of coming up with a ground base for hate preaching.


Religion keeps giving to you a reason to think and then write what you think.
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Post by Ted »

It is becoming the preview of narrow minded people.
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Post by Ted »

It is not just religion that has caused much harm in the past. Many other things have to: science (nuclear bombs, over use of foil fuels, drugs used for immoral purposes,, politicians military hardware. etc. Yet let's pick on religion. This is not to deny that some forms of religion have caused terrible things to happen. So why harp on religion all the time.?
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1511048 wrote: It is not just religion that has caused much harm in the past. Many other things have to: science (nuclear bombs, over use of foil fuels, drugs used for immoral purposes,, politicians military hardware. etc. Yet let's pick on religion. This is not to deny that some forms of religion have caused terrible things to happen. So why harp on religion all the time.?


Because it's still causing a lot of harm throughout the world. The worst atroicities have been connited in the name of religion most notably the holocaust, ask the yazidi in the middle east or the christians and hindus in pakistan what part religion plays in all the killing. People use religion to justify bigotry and hatred of anyone whose lifestyle they disapprove of. Racism is a religious construct you ncan trace it's development

The term bigot derives from the use of the words by god.

Neither of you are capable of proving that god exists yet the burden of proof lies with you if you could actualluy have a ssensible discussion a=boput the existence pf god it might be interesting but you don't want to becauser you might not5 like tne concluscion you come to.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1511069 wrote: Because it's still causing a lot of harm throughout the world. The worst atroicities have been connited in the name of religion most notably the holocaust, ask the yazidi in the middle east or the christians and hindus in pakistan what part religion plays in all the killing. People use religion to justify bigotry and hatred of anyone whose lifestyle they disapprove of. Racism is a religious construct you ncan trace it's development

The term bigot derives from the use of the words by god.

Neither of you are capable of proving that god exists yet the burden of proof lies with you if you could actualluy have a ssensible discussion a=boput the existence pf god it might be interesting but you don't want to becauser you might not5 like tne concluscion you come to.


I have been discussing the existence of God for over ten years here, and have done so with many , many people who did not agree; even now I am still doing it, with many, many views on the discussion, just not many participants recently. I think you belittle that, and what you desire is a discussion based entirely on what you accept , and you are the one who does not make it interesting to yourself , not me ; you and I both already have pre existing conclusions , so conclusions do not make a discussion like this of interest , its the individual's ability to have the discussion knowing those conclusions are already in place but still willing to relate that is of interest to me. Your never going to change my views , and I never will change yours, so interest is not generated by who will change, but only who will endure ; and I have endured for years man, and will continue as long as I have left to live on this planet.
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Post by Ted »

Science has given us nuclear weapons, the fear of total destruction, science has given us saran gas. Some branches of Islam have hurt many people. etc. However there are those who still like to pick on religion alone. LOL
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1511141 wrote: Science has given us nuclear weapons, the fear of total destruction, science has given us saran gas. Some branches of Islam have hurt many people. etc. However there are those who still like to pick on religion alone. LOL


People can be worse than religion; religions are just people and what they believe. And both religious and non religious people have hurt humanity. Religion is just people who are caught up in traditional concepts, and that infection is equally among the non religious, they are caught up in traditions as well.
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1511134 wrote: I have been discussing the existence of God for over ten years here, and have done so with many , many people who did not agree; even now I am still doing it, with many, many views on the discussion, just not many participants recently. I think you belittle that, and what you desire is a discussion based entirely on what you accept , and you are the one who does not make it interesting to yourself , not me ; you and I both already have pre existing conclusions , so conclusions do not make a discussion like this of interest , its the individual's ability to have the discussion knowing those conclusions are already in place but still willing to relate that is of interest to me. Your never going to change my views , and I never will change yours, so interest is not generated by who will change, but only who will endure ; and I have endured for years man, and will continue as long as I have left to live on this planet.


I've tried engaging on your terms in one discussion you claimed it was the bible that was the reason you believed in god but it became abundantly clear you have not actually read it and were only aware of some bits of it that fed in to your own particular brand of belief. If you just said I believe it and that's enough for me I have no problem with that but you claimed to be able to justify your belief which you could not. Don't claim to take the authority for your belief from a book you haven't bothered reading. The notion that god guided those who wrote the bible doesn't stand up to very much examination

All religion uses fear and manipulation and quashes all dissent once it gets in to a position of power as their leaders cynically use it to justify overturning all laws and crushing the vopices that challenge their authority. That is what is happening in turkey and in poland, in russia the orthodox church has enjoyed a resurgence under putin as he uses it to entrench his authority church and state have always walked hand in glove. The catholic church condemns islamic attacks like that on charlie hebdo but qualifies it by saying they shouldn't have provoked the religious. Christian churches oppose lbgt rights and female priests for no better reason than they need to have something to be outraged about. The most offensive thing about religion is the claim to be "tolerant" of other belief systems as if they and only they are right. If you can't accept the right of others to live life as they wish and follow theor own beliefs so long as they respect the rights of others just do so being tolerant is not actually that difficult unless you are religious then god gets in the way.

you and I both already have pre existing conclusions , so conclusions do not make a discussion like this of interest , its the individual's ability to have the discussion knowing those conclusions are already in place but still willing to relate that is of interest to me. Your never going to change my views , and I never will change yours, so interest is not generated by who will change, but only who will endure ; and I have endured for years man, and will continue as long as I have left to live on this planet.




The difference id if you copuld come up with a convincing prove of god I would reconsider my standpoint. An atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of god because there is no evidence of one. Faith is the belief in something whose existence you cannot prove.

posted by ted

Science has given us nuclear weapons, the fear of total destruction, science has given us saran gas. Some branches of Islam have hurt many people. etc. However there are those who still like to pick on religion alone. LOL


Science is not a belief system it's merely a way of examining the world around us and questioning everything. Arguable werte it not for religion and it's suppression of science we would have progressed even further than we have. The argument you use us akin to saying the first time mankind picked up a club and used it on one of his fellow primates experimental scince led us down a path of destruction. It#s a completely spurious point to make.

People can be worse than religion; religions are just people and what they believe. And both religious and non religious people have hurt humanity. Religion is just people who are caught up in traditional concepts, and that infection is equally among the non religious, they are caught up in traditions as well.




So are you saying religion shouild not be challenged? People can change religion changes when it loses power. Belief in the selfish god has caused a great deal of harm and imo always will it is something that makes no sense religion is it's very nature nonsensical,. belief in god makes no sense either as every post yopu two have ever posted demonstrates. Just accept you belief and don't try and justify what you cannot that at least would make sense. Thinking is not good for the religious.

Martin luther

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1511151 wrote: I've tried engaging on your terms in one discussion you claimed it was the bible that was the reason you believed in god but it became abundantly clear you have not actually read it and were only aware of some bits of it that fed in to your own particular brand of belief. If you just said I believe it and that's enough for me I have no problem with that but you claimed to be able to justify your belief which you could not. Don't claim to take the authority for your belief from a book you haven't bothered reading. The notion that god guided those who wrote the bible doesn't stand up to very much examination

All religion uses fear and manipulation and quashes all dissent once it gets in to a position of power as their leaders cynically use it to justify overturning all laws and crushing the vopices that challenge their authority. That is what is happening in turkey and in poland, in russia the orthodox church has enjoyed a resurgence under putin as he uses it to entrench his authority church and state have always walked hand in glove. The catholic church condemns islamic attacks like that on charlie hebdo but qualifies it by saying they shouldn't have provoked the religious. Christian churches oppose lbgt rights and female priests for no better reason than they need to have something to be outraged about. The most offensive thing about religion is the claim to be "tolerant" of other belief systems as if they and only they are right. If you can't accept the right of others to live life as they wish and follow theor own beliefs so long as they respect the rights of others just do so being tolerant is not actually that difficult unless you are religious then god gets in the way.



The difference id if you copuld come up with a convincing prove of god I would reconsider my standpoint. An atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of god because there is no evidence of one. Faith is the belief in something whose existence you cannot prove.

posted by ted



Science is not a belief system it's merely a way of examining the world around us and questioning everything. Arguable werte it not for religion and it's suppression of science we would have progressed even further than we have. The argument you use us akin to saying the first time mankind picked up a club and used it on one of his fellow primates experimental scince led us down a path of destruction. It#s a completely spurious point to make.



So are you saying religion shouild not be challenged? People can change religion changes when it loses power. Belief in the selfish god has caused a great deal of harm and imo always will it is something that makes no sense religion is it's very nature nonsensical,. belief in god makes no sense either as every post yopu two have ever posted demonstrates. Just accept you belief and don't try and justify what you cannot that at least would make sense. Thinking is not good for the religious.

Martin luther


I hold absolutely no interest in you reconsidering your standpoint, I could care less what you think about God in this life. WE think how we do, because were supposed to think like we do. And the bible is just one reason I believe in God, here are the other reasons or proofs to me;

History

Archaeology

Family teachings passed to me

books

human tradition

human experiences

my consciousness

knowledge

understanding

These are just some of the reasons I believe in God , I am conscious of him and you simply are not; not yet. But your day will come, just not in this life;

just not today.
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Post by Mickiel »

Far too many people just fear religion for their own imagined reasons. There is ample reason to disagree with religion, as I do myself, but I do not fear it. Fear associated with religion is contradiction, its like saying that " Judaic Atheism" exist; contradiction. But if it did, many religious people would fear that kind of Atheism. I could understand a fear of some contradictions, such as if " Murderers for peace" existed, a fearful contradiction. But how many governments have been murderers for peace, and yet those governments are not feared by many, but supported. Fascinating.

Some fear the existence of God so much, that they base their unbelief on literal proof of these faith related issues. And they reject what proof we have, because those proofs do not sedate their own consciousness. The bible speaks very little of religion, but many cannot believe that. It only uses the term religion about 5 or 6 times , depending on what version you have.
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Post by gmc »

These are just some of the reasons I believe in God , I am conscious of him and you simply are not; not yet. But your day will come, just not in this life;

just not today.


So when did you start believing in reincarnation?
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Mickiel;1511155 wrote: I hold absolutely no interest in you reconsidering your standpoint, I could care less what you think about God in this life. WE think how we do, because were supposed to think like we do. And the bible is just one reason I believe in God, here are the other reasons or proofs to me;

History

Archaeology

Family teachings passed to me

books

human tradition

human experiences

my consciousness

knowledge

understanding

These are just some of the reasons I believe in God , I am conscious of him and you simply are not; not yet. But your day will come, just not in this life;

just not today.


The only one I will accept there is Conciousness, as that is an abstract thing. All the others are physical things placed there by the dogma of others with their own agendas.

There is nothing wrong with a Spiritualistic Religious belief, where someone holds a belief in a tenet & lives their life according to their beliefs for the benefit of all, but without thrusting it upon others. However, generally, this is not the form that Religion takes. Whatever the Religion it takes the form that everybody else is wrong & should believe in the same things as they do or suffer the consequences. I consider myself a Humanist. I care deeply for people. I have strong moral values about what is right or wrong. I am a Pacifist. I live my life this way. However, I totally reject the notion of a God, Heaven or Hell. I don't feel the need to go & demonstrate my belief in this to everyone else by going to some place of worship & publically declaring my belief. I am who I am. If people can't accept me for what I am, then fine. However, I do take offence when other Religious fanatics try saying that I am the way I am because God wills it. That is, by default, debasing my own ethics. I am the way I am because I choose to be not because of some non existent deity.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1511157 wrote: So when did you start believing in reincarnation?


I don't, why are you suggesting that I do?
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1511159 wrote: The only one I will accept there is Conciousness, as that is an abstract thing. All the others are physical things placed there by the dogma of others with their own agendas.

There is nothing wrong with a Spiritualistic Religious belief, where someone holds a belief in a tenet & lives their life according to their beliefs for the benefit of all, but without thrusting it upon others. However, generally, this is not the form that Religion takes. Whatever the Religion it takes the form that everybody else is wrong & should believe in the same things as they do or suffer the consequences. I consider myself a Humanist. I care deeply for people. I have strong moral values about what is right or wrong. I am a Pacifist. I live my life this way. However, I totally reject the notion of a God, Heaven or Hell. I don't feel the need to go & demonstrate my belief in this to everyone else by going to some place of worship & publically declaring my belief. I am who I am. If people can't accept me for what I am, then fine. However, I do take offence when other Religious fanatics try saying that I am the way I am because God wills it. That is, by default, debasing my own ethics. I am the way I am because I choose to be not because of some non existent deity.


In my view of life, we are what we are because that is how God wanted it to be. I totally reject that we form our own thinking by our own will and power. In my view, God completely controls all of life;

and I am glad he does and not we ourselves. We are not responsible for life, God is.

This is my view of it all; easily my view. And it makes perfect sense to me.
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Post by Ted »

I do not believe that God controls every aspect of life. Holocaust is a good example. Imagine a God who tolerates such evil.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1511177 wrote: I do not believe that God controls every aspect of life. Holocaust is a good example. Imagine a God who tolerates such evil.


He did not tolerate evil, he created it. In Isaiah 45:7, " I form the light , and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord DO all these things."

God created evil.
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Post by Ted »

Why create evil? What is the purpose?
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1511245 wrote: Why create evil? What is the purpose?


I really am not sure.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1511185 wrote: He did not tolerate evil, he created it. In Isaiah 45:7, " I form the light , and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord DO all these things."

God created evil.


Any God that deliberately creates evil is evil.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1511253 wrote: Any God that deliberately creates evil is evil.




All I know is that neither humanity or evil has always existed. For his own purpose God created evil and exposed us all to it. In John 1:3 " All Things were made by him" ( this all things includes evil and its destructive ways). It states that without him, nothing could exist. In Hebrews 1:2 it is made clear that he made " The Worlds." Yet in Col.1:28 our destiny is revealed, the destiny of the total population of humanity " We will be presented perfect in Christ Jesus!" So we will come out of this evil a newly created perfect being. That is the deliverance of God! Who in 1 Tim. 2:4 will have ALL of humanity be saved; now why we all must be exposed with evil in order to achieve that end, I just don't really know.

I can only guess.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1511262 wrote: All I know is that neither humanity or evil has always existed. For his own purpose God created evil and exposed us all to it. In John 1:3 " All Things were made by him" ( this all things includes evil and its destructive ways). It states that without him, nothing could exist. In Hebrews 1:2 it is made clear that he made " The Worlds." Yet in Col.1:28 our destiny is revealed, the destiny of the total population of humanity " We will be presented perfect in Christ Jesus!" So we will come out of this evil a newly created perfect being. That is the deliverance of God! Who in 1 Tim. 2:4 will have ALL of humanity be saved; now why we all must be exposed with evil in order to achieve that end, I just don't really know.

I can only guess.


And my first guess would be that God wanted humanity to be aware of just what evil can do, as compared to his way of life. A great lesson if you will. In Genesis 3:22 God exposed humanity to it and said " Now the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil."

Evil is a horrible thing, and God is a wonderful thing. I know about evil, I just wish I knew God. Just not today, but I believe it is our destiny.
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Post by Ted »

Bryn Mawr I'm in agreement with you on God creating evil. If in fact he created evil I fail to see any logic in this whatsoever.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1511311 wrote: Bryn Mawr I'm in agreement with you on God creating evil. If in fact he created evil I fail to see any logic in this whatsoever.




I don't understand it either. But I think if God did it this way, because of his wisdom , it then could not be done in a better way.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1511262 wrote: All I know is that neither humanity or evil has always existed. For his own purpose God created evil and exposed us all to it. In John 1:3 " All Things were made by him" ( this all things includes evil and its destructive ways). It states that without him, nothing could exist. In Hebrews 1:2 it is made clear that he made " The Worlds." Yet in Col.1:28 our destiny is revealed, the destiny of the total population of humanity " We will be presented perfect in Christ Jesus!" So we will come out of this evil a newly created perfect being. That is the deliverance of God! Who in 1 Tim. 2:4 will have ALL of humanity be saved; now why we all must be exposed with evil in order to achieve that end, I just don't really know.

I can only guess.


OK, can we explore this?

All things were made by him - is evil a "thing"? Does the verse refer to physical existence and what would suggest it does not? I would guess that to even start to work that out we would have to go back to the original Greek.

Is evil even a thing at all? To me Pol Pot's actions were evil in that they involved deliberately murdering a third of the countries population (the evil being brainwashing young children into doing much of the killing for him). The person was evil, the evil did not exist apart from the person.

Your quote from Paul's letter to Timothy directly contradicts the words of Jesus who said that no one shall come to the Father except through Him. Of the two I accept the word of Jesus and hold either Paul or the interpretation of his words mistaken.
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Post by Ted »

The idea of satan was developed by the Mesopotamians.
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Bryn Mawr;1511322 wrote: OK, can we explore this?

All things were made by him - is evil a "thing"? Does the verse refer to physical existence and what would suggest it does not? I would guess that to even start to work that out we would have to go back to the original Greek.

Is evil even a thing at all? To me Pol Pot's actions were evil in that they involved deliberately murdering a third of the countries population (the evil being brainwashing young children into doing much of the killing for him). The person was evil, the evil did not exist apart from the person.

Your quote from Paul's letter to Timothy directly contradicts the words of Jesus who said that no one shall come to the Father except through Him. Of the two I accept the word of Jesus and hold either Paul or the interpretation of his words mistaken.


Evil is a way of being, a way of thinking if you will. It is a spirit.

There is no contradiction without you showing the verses I used.
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Post by FourPart »

A God that creates evil, and is responsible for people committing evil acts (for you, yourself, have said that he is responsible for all things), and then condemns you to eternal damnation for doing his will - something that is supposedly beyond your control? And you wonder why the concept of a God has no credibility?
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Post by Ted »

I'm here because of the topics. Religion has been a major factor in human history. I really don't care what people think nor do I want them to think as I do. Each of us is entitled to walk our own path. Fundamentalists are verry strong in their faith. The Soap box evangelical. I also see the same in the atheistic threads. More atheist evangelical preaching. If it were to leave religious topics out I would walk out as well. Debate can and often does get hot and heavy but courtesy can still remain.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1511379 wrote: A God that creates evil, and is responsible for people committing evil acts (for you, yourself, have said that he is responsible for all things), and then condemns you to eternal damnation for doing his will - something that is supposedly beyond your control? And you wonder why the concept of a God has no credibility?




Your understanding has been taken for a long ride, there is absolutely no such thing as eternal damnation, God is not stupid. Your concept of him has no credibility. All of humanity will live with God.

Hello!
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1511262 wrote: All I know is that neither humanity or evil has always existed. For his own purpose God created evil and exposed us all to it. In John 1:3 " All Things were made by him" ( this all things includes evil and its destructive ways). It states that without him, nothing could exist. In Hebrews 1:2 it is made clear that he made " The Worlds." Yet in Col.1:28 our destiny is revealed, the destiny of the total population of humanity " We will be presented perfect in Christ Jesus!" So we will come out of this evil a newly created perfect being. That is the deliverance of God! Who in 1 Tim. 2:4 will have ALL of humanity be saved; now why we all must be exposed with evil in order to achieve that end, I just don't really know.

I can only guess.


Bryn Mawr;1511322 wrote: OK, can we explore this?

All things were made by him - is evil a "thing"? Does the verse refer to physical existence and what would suggest it does not? I would guess that to even start to work that out we would have to go back to the original Greek.

Is evil even a thing at all? To me Pol Pot's actions were evil in that they involved deliberately murdering a third of the countries population (the evil being brainwashing young children into doing much of the killing for him). The person was evil, the evil did not exist apart from the person.

Your quote from Paul's letter to Timothy directly contradicts the words of Jesus who said that no one shall come to the Father except through Him. Of the two I accept the word of Jesus and hold either Paul or the interpretation of his words mistaken.


Mickiel;1511377 wrote: Evil is a way of being, a way of thinking if you will. It is a spirit.

There is no contradiction without you showing the verses I used.


I thought I had shown the verse you used but here it is with context :-



3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;




All in all I think the contradiction lies with your interpretation of verse four, I think that verse five makes it clear that Jesus *is* the gateway (and no one will come to the Father except through Him) but that He wishes that all men will use that gateway - not a promise that ALL humanity will be saved.
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Post by Ted »

There are so many threads on this site that it becoming religious is absurd.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1511447 wrote: I thought I had shown the verse you used but here it is with context :-



All in all I think the contradiction lies with your interpretation of verse four, I think that verse five makes it clear that Jesus *is* the gateway (and no one will come to the Father except through Him) but that He wishes that all men will use that gateway - not a promise that ALL humanity will be saved.




The verse is clear, God WILL have ALL men to be saved. Its academic, none are left out. IN Isaiah 45:23 God swears a holy vow that all humans will bow to him and confess him with their mouths! HE swears this, which means it cannot be stopped. In Luke 3:6 it clearly states that ALL humans shall SEE the salvation of God. In Col. 1:28 it says again that ALL men will be presented perfect in Christ, we all will be changed. In Col. 3:11 it teaches that Christ is all, AND IN ALL!

Look, here are 100 biblical verses to prove this great salvation;

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1511507 wrote: The verse is clear, God WILL have ALL men to be saved. Its academic, none are left out. IN Isaiah 45:23 God swears a holy vow that all humans will bow to him and confess him with their mouths! HE swears this, which means it cannot be stopped. In Luke 3:6 it clearly states that ALL humans shall SEE the salvation of God. In Col. 1:28 it says again that ALL men will be presented perfect in Christ, we all will be changed. In Col. 3:11 it teaches that Christ is all, AND IN ALL!

Look, here are 100 biblical verses to prove this great salvation;

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind


Then how do you reconcile the discrepancy between that claim and John 14:5 which says that no man will come to the Father except through belief in Jesus - thus explicitly excluding all non-Christians?

Even if, in the end of days, all men turn to Jesus, Revelations says that all men shall be judged, those who died before the last trump will rise from their graves and there are billions of people, now and in the past, who have not turned to Jesus.

Even more basic, the fact that men are judged implies that not all are found to be acceptable - those who are damned to eternal suffering in Hell certainly cannot also have eternal salvation in Heaven for example.

I'll even quote Jesus to you. In Matthew 19:24 He says that "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. ". Now, if a rich man cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven then it is self evident that "ALL" men shall not be saved.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1511509 wrote: Then how do you reconcile the discrepancy between that claim and John 14:5 which says that no man will come to the Father except through belief in Jesus - thus explicitly excluding all non-Christians?

Even if, in the end of days, all men turn to Jesus, Revelations says that all men shall be judged, those who died before the last trump will rise from their graves and there are billions of people, now and in the past, who have not turned to Jesus.

Even more basic, the fact that men are judged implies that not all are found to be acceptable - those who are damned to eternal suffering in Hell certainly cannot also have eternal salvation in Heaven for example.

I'll even quote Jesus to you. In Matthew 19:24 He says that "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. ". Now, if a rich man cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven then it is self evident that "ALL" men shall not be saved.


Its simply stunning how you quote two verses, after I gave you 100 verses that reveals the salvation of all. Hey would 600 more verses somehow impress your mind?

600+ Scriptures Confirming Universal Salvation
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1511510 wrote: Its simply stunning how you quote two verses, after I gave you 100 verses that reveals the salvation of all. Hey would 600 more verses somehow impress your mind?

600+ Scriptures Confirming Universal Salvation


No, quite frankly, it would not.

Until you can explain the discrepancy then the whole interpretation of the Bible is in doubt.

By quoting more verses you just show that the contradiction is more widespread - it is still a contradiction and must be explained it we are to accept anything as true.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1511511 wrote: No, quite frankly, it would not.

Until you can explain the discrepancy then the whole interpretation of the Bible is in doubt.

By quoting more verses you just show that the contradiction is more widespread - it is still a contradiction and must be explained it we are to accept anything as true.


The discrepancy exist only in your mind, and there is absolutely nothing I can do about how you think. In John 12:32 Jesus said if he be lifted up, then he will, ( in the future), draw ALL men to him." Your mind is simply unable to see such great salvation, because its infected with so much trash.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1511517 wrote: The discrepancy exist only in your mind, and there is absolutely nothing I can do about how you think. In John 12:32 Jesus said if he be lifted up, then he will, ( in the future), draw ALL men to him." Your mind is simply unable to see such great salvation, because its infected with so much trash.


Then obviously there will be no meeting of minds.

I tend to take words at their face value, if Jesus says that xyz cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven then I believe that it is not open to all.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1511542 wrote: Then obviously there will be no meeting of minds.

I tend to take words at their face value, if Jesus says that xyz cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven then I believe that it is not open to all.


Well I already know our minds will not meet; you give someone 700 scriptures showing the salvation of all of humanity, that the Kingdom of God is not limited to anything, , they cannot see that, it then is impossible to explain the truth of God to them. Bryn, in Luke 5:32 Jesus said he came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance, that means that EVERYONE is freely invited, because we all are sinners. Jesus did not come here to limit his Kingdom and block people from entering. In Luke 9:56, " For the Son of man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

It is unfortunate that you cannot see these verses as well.

Peace.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1511544 wrote: Well I already know our minds will not meet; you give someone 700 scriptures showing the salvation of all of humanity, that the Kingdom of God is not limited to anything, , they cannot see that, it then is impossible to explain the truth of God to them. Bryn, in Luke 5:32 Jesus said he came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance, that means that EVERYONE is freely invited, because we all are sinners. Jesus did not come here to limit his Kingdom and block people from entering. In Luke 9:56, " For the Son of man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

It is unfortunate that you cannot see these verses as well.

Peace.


No problem at all with the above, He came to call the sinners to repentance, everyone is freely invited, but those who will not repent will not get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Let us examine the situation, Christianity is all about the word of Christ. Either the word of Christ is accurately portrayed in the Bible or it is not, if it is not then we do not have a religion we have a con so let us assume that they are. Apart from the words of Christ we have the words of the apostles and the words of the prophets - do we agree so far?

OK, if the words of Christ are there and are accurate they must take precedence over everything else. What else? Everything else is interpretation. When we look at the words and the acts of the apostles we see that, immediately after the end of Christ's ministry, the two major apostles so disagreed over the teachings of Christ that it was almost schismatic - were the teachings of Christ meant for only the Jews or should they be taught to the gentiles as well.

If, after all that Christ has taught them, either the rock upon which the Church was built or the writer of the letters you quote can have so misinterpreted Christ's intentions then we cannot take as absolute any other statement of the Apostles unless it is backed up by the word of Christ Himself.

So yes, I disregard your hundreds of examples until you can explain why Christ stated clearly that not all men will enter the Kingdom of Heaven as shown by, at the very least, the two quotes I have given.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1511547 wrote: No problem at all with the above, He came to call the sinners to repentance, everyone is freely invited, but those who will not repent will not get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Let us examine the situation, Christianity is all about the word of Christ. Either the word of Christ is accurately portrayed in the Bible or it is not, if it is not then we do not have a religion we have a con so let us assume that they are. Apart from the words of Christ we have the words of the apostles and the words of the prophets - do we agree so far?

OK, if the words of Christ are there and are accurate they must take precedence over everything else. What else? Everything else is interpretation. When we look at the words and the acts of the apostles we see that, immediately after the end of Christ's ministry, the two major apostles so disagreed over the teachings of Christ that it was almost schismatic - were the teachings of Christ meant for only the Jews or should they be taught to the gentiles as well.

If, after all that Christ has taught them, either the rock upon which the Church was built or the writer of the letters you quote can have so misinterpreted Christ's intentions then we cannot take as absolute any other statement of the Apostles unless it is backed up by the word of Christ Himself.

So yes, I disregard your hundreds of examples until you can explain why Christ stated clearly that not all men will enter the Kingdom of Heaven as shown by, at the very least, the two quotes I have given.




That is incorrect, the words of Christ do not take precedence over the Father God. God's words are supreme, and in Isaiah 45:23 God swore a most holy vow that ALL humans will be saved. He said that every knee will bow to him, and every mouth shall confess to him. Its academic that every human will be saved, and I could care less what Christianity is teaching. NOTHING takes precedence over God Not even Christ, he came here to do the Fathers will, not his own. And God will cause all men to repent, he is not asking them to do that on their own; he will force all humans to their knees. In John 12:32 Jesus will draw all men to him, that term draw is taken from the Greek word " Helkuo", which means to " Drag." And that means force, not willful repentance.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1511550 wrote: That is incorrect, the words of Christ do not take precedence over the Father God. God's words are supreme, and in Isaiah 45:23 God swore a most holy vow that ALL humans will be saved. He said that every knee will bow to him, and every mouth shall confess to him. Its academic that every human will be saved, and I could care less what Christianity is teaching. NOTHING takes precedence over God Not even Christ, he came here to do the Fathers will, not his own. And God will cause all men to repent, he is not asking them to do that on their own; he will force all humans to their knees. In John 12:32 Jesus will draw all men to him, that term draw is taken from the Greek word " Helkuo", which means to " Drag." And that means force, not willful repentance.


Then we follow different religions and there will be no meeting of minds.

Thanks for discussing the matter though, it's been interesting.
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Post by Ahso! »

Most of these freelance religious wannabes on the internet like the ones on this site simply make it up as they go. The majority of them appear to have severe reading comprehension issues as well. The rest of them, like in the mold of Pahu, are nothing more than bs artists.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1511563 wrote: Most of these freelance religious wannabes on the internet like the ones on this site simply make it up as they go. The majority of them appear to have severe reading comprehension issues as well. The rest of them, like in the mold of Pahu, are nothing more than bs artists.


Having spent time on a forum or two where the denizens are all experts, I much prefer the freewheelers (Like Mikiel, Pahu, and Xfrod) who seem to make it up as they go along.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1511558 wrote: Then we follow different religions and there will be no meeting of minds.

Thanks for discussing the matter though, it's been interesting.


I don't follow any religion, but thank you for the interaction as well;

peace on your journey.
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1511571 wrote: Having spent time on a forum or two where the denizens are all experts, I much prefer the freewheelers (Like Mikiel, Pahu, and Xfrod) who seem to make it up as they go along.




Man, you can't make this stuff up. I am in no manner that creative, I don't like lies and foolishness. Were just on different wavelengths; and that's all it is. Like speaking different languages.

I have some 3,800 post; please, I can't make up that much material; goodness.
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Post by Saint_ »

LarsMac;1511571 wrote: Having spent time on a forum or two where the denizens are all experts, I much prefer the freewheelers (Like Mikiel, Pahu, and Xfrod) who seem to make it up as they go along.


In regards to Pahu, "Freewheelers?" Didn't you mean to say "unhinged?"
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Post by Saint_ »

Ahso!;1511563 wrote: , like ... Pahu, are nothing more than bs artists.


Actually, Pahu really believes everything he says. I actually have to thank him for showing me that there are really people who can be educated and yet so stratified and obsessed that they will deliberately ignore contradictory information. It's really sad. And I have to admit, I always assumed that if you were intelligent enough to get educated, you would naturally adopt a stance of constantly wanting to update and enhance your education and knowledge.

Apparently, that's not so.

And It really rankles me. To see a sharp mind deliberately and with malicious intention spewing false information and refusing to consider any science. But then, HEY! That's our president!
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1511571 wrote: Having spent time on a forum or two where the denizens are all experts, I much prefer the freewheelers (Like Mikiel, Pahu, and Xfrod) who seem to make it up as they go along.


And why do you prefer that? What do you get from it?
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