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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492491 wrote: I suggest you research the word idol.

As to the roots of the word and emblems idolized, you might remember that the Christian cross was around a long time before Christianity took it to themselves.

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DL


I would very strongly suggest that you look up the definition of an idol because you seem to have a very strand use of the word.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492499 wrote: It's not a case of finding a dictionary, it's a case of finding out how you are using the word because it sure ain't the definition in any dictionary I've seen.

What you present as "facts" are mostly unsupported suppositions and wishful thinking.

As to whether religions are moral or not that is a matter of personal judgement, very dependant on your view of the religion in question (*) and, as I have said before, in my opinion you are confusing religion with Church and blaming religion for the failing of the Church.

* For example, what is Christianity? I grew up in a Church where the New Testament defined Christianity and the Old Testament, whilst of interest, was more a history of the people than scripture whereas other Christian Churches (I'm thinking Far Rider / Jester here) see the OT as fundamental and the NT as a nicety on top of it. Both are Christian but any argument regarding morality would be totally changed depending of which viewpoint you take.

Is Islam moral? Which sect are you looking at? Even I can think of six (compared to the several hundred within Christianity) and each of them has a different interpretation of the Quran and the fundamentals of the religion.


All priests and imams are constantly lying when speaking of or for God.

Pick whatever sect you want. They all support Sharia and Sharia is an immoral system.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492500 wrote: I would very strongly suggest that you look up the definition of an idol because you seem to have a very strand use of the word.


If you cannot see that those in religions who seek God are not idol worshipers as compared to those who claim a God and are idolizing the God they say they believe in, then you are not bright enough to help in the interpretation of words.

If not idol worshipers, what would you name those who idolize a God or a (the WORD of God?

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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492502 wrote: All priests and imams are constantly lying when speaking of or for God.


In you not so humble opinion. Would you care to prove this assertion?

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492502 wrote: Pick whatever sect you want. They all support Sharia and Sharia is an immoral system.

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DL


Which version of Sharia? You speak of it as a single entity but it differs between the sects - you condemn what you do not know.

Again, Sharia is an interpretation - you take the interpretation of the fundamentalist extremists and ascribe it to all Muslims which is not the true state of affairs.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492503 wrote: If you cannot see that those in religions who seek God are not idol worshipers as compared to those who claim a God and are idolizing the God they say they believe in, then you are not bright enough to help in the interpretation of words.

If not idol worshipers, what would you name those who idolize a God or a (the WORD of God?

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DL


Dropping to personal insults now?

A God cannot be an idol using any standard definition of the word.
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Post by FourPart »

Bryn Mawr;1492508 wrote:

A God cannot be an idol using any standard definition of the word.


I think he just likes using the same 2 words because he likes the sound of them. Understanding the meaning of the words is insignificant, as he has repeatedly refused to define what he understands the words to mean. He will not define what he sees as being moral or how anyone that disagrees with his own morality is necessarily immoral. He doesn't even understand the concept of an idol being a graven image.

Incidentally - the Christian Cross, by definition, didn't become a Christian Cross until the time of his Crucifixion. Before that it would just have been a Cross. In Christianity the cross had been symbolic of the crucifixion, and in many ways an idol - particularly when it is portrayed with the Christ figure nailed to it. Similarly there are images & statues of the Virgin Mary. No doubt these, too, are forms of idolatry. However, you will find none of these in a Mosque. In recent times the Star & Crescent has become associated with Islam, yet would you also consider Portsmouth Football Club to be Muslim Idolators, seeing as their crest just happens to be a Star & Crescent? The banner of the UK is the Union Flag - made up of the 3 banners of different Kingdoms. Is this also to mean that all patriotic Britons are to be considered idolators because they revere their banner? To modern day Islam, the Star & Crescent is no more than that. It has simply become a banner that identifies who they are - much like the traditional symbols you find outside High Street shops - such as the 3 Pawnbrokers Balls, or the Striped Pole of the Barber, etc. - or are they idolators too?
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492507 wrote: In you not so humble opinion. Would you care to prove this assertion?





Which version of Sharia? You speak of it as a single entity but it differs between the sects - you condemn what you do not know.

Again, Sharia is an interpretation - you take the interpretation of the fundamentalist extremists and ascribe it to all Muslims which is not the true state of affairs.


If I have to prove to you that all that is said about invisible absentee Gods are lies, then I will never convince you.

But thanks for the logical fallacy question that cannot have an answer.

It is to the liars to show the tracks or45 the **** when they cry wolf. It is not to the rest of us to rove that imaginary Gods are imaginary.

I can show, I think, that all the flavors of Sharia are immoral. Which one would you like to speak of?

Which one allows us to make cartoons of Mohammed?

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492508 wrote: Dropping to personal insults now?

A God cannot be an idol using any standard definition of the word.


A real God, perhaps, depending on how you use English but imaginary absentee God are definitely idols.

Further.

That was a low level insult that I now upgrade after your logical fallacy question.

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Post by FourPart »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492524 wrote: A real God, perhaps, depending on how you use English but imaginary absentee God are definitely idols.

Further.

That was a low level insult that I now upgrade after your logical fallacy question.

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DL


An idol is a graven image. A physical manifestation. A cartoon of a Religious figure would be considered as a graven image. That is where the objections arise - because they are NOT idolators - quite the contrary.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1492552 wrote: An idol is a graven image. A physical manifestation. A cartoon of a Religious figure would be considered as a graven image. That is where the objections arise - because they are NOT idolators - quite the contrary.


Gods or idols can be defined as anything we place at the top of our wish to be list. Gods or idols represent whatever ideal we think is the greatest ideal.

The WORD of God, is, to a Christian, the ideal words that would come from their God's mouth. Their WORD/bible is thus an idol. What they quote becomes a graven image as that is a physical manifestation, as you call it.

The same applies to Islam, another idol worshiping cult.

Ask them what their ideal is and they will say the Qur'an and Sharia. They follow those idols and that makes them idol worshipers.

Once anyone claims a certain God or holy book, they become idol worshipers.

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Post by FourPart »

In which case, by your own definition, you are also an Idolator. Just where do you learn your own tenet?
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1492577 wrote: In which case, by your own definition, you are also an Idolator. Just where do you learn your own tenet?


I specified supernatural.

But to your full comment.



I did not learn my morals from a God. My morals came from people. If that makes me an idol worshiper of many people, then I guess I am guilty as charged.

To me though, it just says that I love some others and their opinions as I do myself.

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Post by FourPart »

So have your morals come from anything you have read? Do you revere the written doctrines of others? According to you, even the written word - one of the most ancient methods of recording information is to be classed as idolatry.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1492585 wrote: So have your morals come from anything you have read? Do you revere the written doctrines of others? According to you, even the written word - one of the most ancient methods of recording information is to be classed as idolatry.


My morals, like all people, had an internal or instinctive base. They grew from that as I grew up and learned to put words to the instincts. Some of those words and ideas I read. Some I chose myself to what I saw around me. Even my own feelings, both positive and negative after certain actions, taught me morals.

To revere is not the same level of respect as to idolize. All the tenets I follow I take with a grain of salt as I am still trying to learn more than what I know now. That says that I cannot hold anything as sacrosanct.

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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492573 wrote: Gods or idols can be defined as anything we place at the top of our wish to be list. Gods or idols represent whatever ideal we think is the greatest ideal.

The WORD of God, is, to a Christian, the ideal words that would come from their God's mouth. Their WORD/bible is thus an idol. What they quote becomes a graven image as that is a physical manifestation, as you call it.

The same applies to Islam, another idol worshiping cult.

Ask them what their ideal is and they will say the Qur'an and Sharia. They follow those idols and that makes them idol worshipers.

Once anyone claims a certain God or holy book, they become idol worshipers.

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DL


Finally we get a definition out of you!

Where do you come by that definition - it certainly isn't from English.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492592 wrote: Finally we get a definition out of you!

Where do you come by that definition - it certainly isn't from English.


I do not recall when every bit of information came to me or when I formed an opinion on what I have learned.

The only thing that come to mind is this poem but even the author, after a start that I liked, ends up showing himself to also be an idol worshiper.

The first minute says it all.



For a long time, I just defined theologies, philosophies and God as the best set of laws and rules that we are to live life by.

Most, excepting idol worshipers, tend to let that definition pass.

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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492596 wrote: I do not recall when every bit of information came to me or when I formed an opinion on what I have learned.

The only thing that come to mind is this poem but even the author, after a start that I liked, ends up showing himself to also be an idol worshiper.

The first minute says it all.



For a long time, I just defined theologies, philosophies and God as the best set of laws and rules that we are to live life by.

Most, excepting idol worshipers, tend to let that definition pass.

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DL


When you define words to suit your argument then your argument becomes meaningless to everyone except yourself.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492597 wrote: When you define words to suit your argument then your argument becomes meaningless to everyone except yourself.


If they are not accepted it, no argument.

Many do not allow analogies and offer semantics.

I like to KIS.

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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492600 wrote: If they are not accepted it, no argument.

Many do not allow analogies and offer semantics.

I like to KIS.

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Keeping it simple involves using the standard meanings for common words
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492602 wrote: Keeping it simple involves using the standard meanings for common words


Sometimes.

Sometimes there are too many meanings to a word.

Like God.

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Post by Ted »

I do agree with Gnostic on this one.
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Post by Ted »

Just reading a book by Harvey Cox. the Hebrew phrase translated as "I am who I am" is questionable in translation and meaning. Found in the story about Moses and the burning bush. Some folks simply want to read the Bible with the meanings they want in the book.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1492681 wrote: Just reading a book by Harvey Cox. the Hebrew phrase translated as "I am who I am" is questionable in translation and meaning. Found in the story about Moses and the burning bush. Some folks simply want to read the Bible with the meanings they want in the book.


I hear you.

Even the Jews do not know what to make of it. Here is about a 15 minute explanation that still says nothing.



As far as I am, concerned and that is likely due to bias toward Gnostic Christianity, I just read what is said as said.

I am was the answer to who is your God.

Moses is saying I am God and means that he is God and Pharaoh is to deal with him as God.

If Moses followed Jesus' teaching, that we do not get till latter of course, but are pure Jewish thinking forever, then Moses was following the Jewish oral tradition of claiming to be a God. He would have been a member of the Jewish Divine Council of his day.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1492681 wrote: Just reading a book by Harvey Cox. the Hebrew phrase translated as "I am who I am" is questionable in translation and meaning. Found in the story about Moses and the burning bush. Some folks simply want to read the Bible with the meanings they want in the book.


True and if one is intelligent enough to not be a literalist, he will understand the esoteric meaning of the burning bush and the name I am.



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Post by FourPart »

Ted;1492681 wrote: Just reading a book by Harvey Cox. the Hebrew phrase translated as "I am who I am" is questionable in translation and meaning. Found in the story about Moses and the burning bush. Some folks simply want to read the Bible with the meanings they want in the book.
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Post by Silas Mackey »

Nope, Church isn't dying at all. May be people aren't coming in Church like before. But this isn't mean that Church is going to die.
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Post by FourPart »

In the UK the Church used to be the focal point of every community. Nowadays it is an also ran. The majority of what few users remain are of the older generation who are, through the natural course of events, dying off. As they are not being replaced by the subsequent generations, it seems that it will inevitably die out.

As for practicing what they preach - there is a group of volunteers in Southampton who go out every night in all weathers to give out food & clothing donated by local businesses & individuals. They meet regularly outside the Above Bar Church. A few weeks ago their water urn blew out so they were left without any hot water. You might have thought the Church would have been the first ones to come to their assistance. Not a bit of it. They wouldn't even lend them any of their large Pump Flasks. Fortunately a philanthropic member of the group came up & bought them a new one.

This is the REAL face of the Church. With a hypocritical policy like that it deserves to die out.
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Post by Ted »

Real face of the church. No it is the real face of one. I think the statistics speak for themselves. The number of Americans claiming to be Christian has dropped from 49% to 19%.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Silas Mackey;1492970 wrote: Nope, Church isn't dying at all. May be people aren't coming in Church like before. But this isn't mean that Church is going to die.


Start this up at the 19 min. mark and note the good science used to show the tipping point of religion, from belief to non-belief in many countries.

Is God an Alien Concept? - Video Dailymotion

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Post by gmc »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492629 wrote: Sometimes.

Sometimes there are too many meanings to a word.

Like God.

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DL


That's why the context matters. Take the word lead for instance. I have on for my dog with which I lead them I have lead on my roof at the join by the wall asnd some people like to be led by others rather than think for themselves even english teachers in my experience get mixed up with the bough of a tree and the genuflection one might make before ones idol. Goid/idol are not interchangeable the bone of contention betwwenm catholic and protestant and why they have different versions of the ten commandments notably the second commandment.

Roman Catholic Version



I am the Lord thy God...Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.


Protestant (Biblical) Version

I am the Lord thy God...Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.


Go in to a lutheran church there are no images sometimes a cross but it is not worshipped. In that they have lot in common with fundamentalist islam and from the same source - the torah.

Three hundred years ago you would have been in serious trouble for not understanding the difference.

I wish the church was dying I like to think people are seeing the light of reason but there is rearguard action going on.

National Secular Society - High Court rules against Education Secretary for leaving non-religious views out of new RE GCSE

We allow stater funded schools to preclude people from attending even if they live in the same street on religious grounds. Religious discrimination it seems is still acceptable and those who argue it immoral get lectured by the child botherers and bigots on what is right and wrong. like I suspect you bare logic and reason are beyond your ken possibly due to early abuse of the reasoning faculties duen to a religious upbringing.

posted by four part



This is the REAL face of the Church. With a hypocritical policy like that it deserves to die out.




were it left to chruistian charity we would have no NHS or welfare state all acheivements of secuarism.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

I understand that there are a lot of screw ups and various stupid laws around religions. All because people do not seem to care that they are mostly built on lies from priests and imams.

It is not surprising that the intelligent people in secular circles are making a fuss as they see the perpetuation of immorality, homophobia and misogyny that comes from religions.

When people start caring that the religious and gullible are constantly being lied to, fraud to me, then we can start cleaning up our collective acts.

If the masses are to continue following immoral creeds, then they will continue to get what they want. A bunch of immoral homophobes and misogynous bastards who do not care for equality.

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Post by FourPart »

You still don't seem to understand the concept of morality. It is a matter of perspective. To the Homophobe it is the way that they have been raised to believe that Homosexuality itself is immoral. To the Homosexual (or any other enlightened person) it is the Homophobe who is immoral. The same can be said for drinking, birth control, sex outside marriage, nudity - even listening to music. Morals are man made. The basic ones regarding killing & stealing generally tend to be common to all cultures, as these are most beneficial to all societies. Others, though, are entirely conceptual. To accuse someone of being immoral simply be cause their moral code does not agree with yours could be viewed as being immoral in itself.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1493137 wrote: You still don't seem to understand the concept of morality. It is a matter of perspective. To the Homophobe it is the way that they have been raised to believe that Homosexuality itself is immoral. To the Homosexual (or any other enlightened person) it is the Homophobe who is immoral. The same can be said for drinking, birth control, sex outside marriage, nudity - even listening to music. Morals are man made. The basic ones regarding killing & stealing generally tend to be common to all cultures, as these are most beneficial to all societies. Others, though, are entirely conceptual. To accuse someone of being immoral simply be cause their moral code does not agree with yours could be viewed as being immoral in itself.


And that is where discussions and debate decide who is right and who is wrong.

Sure we are products of our environment as to who and what we will like or hate. We all develop biases.

To just say, I think as I do because daddy thought this way, and I will just absorb this or that bias, is a cop out to thinking for yourself.

I put my position out there and think those who agree are moral people and think that those who disagree are not.

If those who disagree are not willing or able to argue for their side then that should tell them that they are wrong.



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Post by LarsMac »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1493151 wrote: ...

I put my position out there and think those who agree are moral people and think that those who disagree are not.

...



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That sums up your attitude very well.

There is really no point in even having a conversation with you, because you dismiss out of hand anything anyone who disagrees with you has to say.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1493157 wrote: That sums up your attitude very well.

There is really no point in even having a conversation with you, because you dismiss out of hand anything anyone who disagrees with you has to say.


Only when they say as little as you.

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Post by Ted »

It seems to me that Gnostic s greatest problem is taring everyone with the same brush. This is a great way to avoid any real discussion. I find it amusing when someone thinks they have all the answers. Oh how little we really know.
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Post by Ted »

What I really learned after many many years in university education is just how little anyone really knows.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1493161 wrote: Only when they say as little as you.

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No - whatever is said, if it disagrees with your opinion you dismiss it out of hand.

Your inflexibility is only matched by your intransigence.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1493176 wrote: What I really learned after many many years in university education is just how little anyone really knows.


Yet you are quick to tell us who do not know much.

Your humbleness is quite hypocritical.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1493181 wrote: No - whatever is said, if it disagrees with your opinion you dismiss it out of hand.

Your inflexibility is only matched by your intransigence.


Anyone can disagree but it takes a good mind to refute anything I say because what I say is well thought out.

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Post by LarsMac »

And your humility is awe-inspiring.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1493191 wrote: And your humility is awe-inspiring.




That is why I do not bother as I think it hypocritical.

Careful or I will take back the kisses I gave you elsewhere.

:wah:

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Post by gmc »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1493187 wrote: Anyone can disagree but it takes a good mind to refute anything I say because what I say is well thought out.

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You b----d I just banged my head on the desk when I fell off the chair laughing at that one.
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Post by FourPart »

gmc;1493197 wrote: You b----d I just banged my head on the desk when I fell off the chair laughing at that one.
Made me chuckle as well.

To paraphrase Gnostic: "Anyone who has a closed mind is immoral. And that's all there is to it!!"
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Post by Ted »

Gnostic it is well known that the more one learns the more she/he has a lot more to learn. The more we study the more we realize how little we know.

Off to Greece until May 15.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1493208 wrote: Made me chuckle as well.

To paraphrase Gnostic: "Anyone who has a closed mind is immoral. And that's all there is to it!!"


You put a lie in my mouth.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1493328 wrote: Gnostic it is well known that the more one learns the more she/he has a lot more to learn. The more we study the more we realize how little we know.

Off to Greece until May 15.


Think about that saying.

It is telling you to let another think for you and for you to never seek the end of an issue.

You have been listening to Christians for way too long.

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The Church is dying.

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Ted;1493328 wrote: Gnostic it is well known that the more one learns the more she/he has a lot more to learn. The more we study the more we realize how little we know.

Off to Greece until May 15.


Gnostic Christian Bishop;1493539 wrote: Think about that saying.

It is telling you to let another think for you and for you to never seek the end of an issue.

You have been listening to Christians for way too long.

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In Ted's absence I'll answer for him :-

What a peculiar interpretation - far from telling you to let another think for you it is saying that the more you think for yourself and find information the more you realise that you have far more information to find and think about.

Nothing to do with stopping thinking and allowing another to do it for you.
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AnneBoleyn
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The Church is dying.

Post by AnneBoleyn »

I've never seen you and Ted together, Bryn. Are you the same person? Answer for him, indeed! ;-)
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Bryn Mawr
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The Church is dying.

Post by Bryn Mawr »

AnneBoleyn;1493568 wrote: I've never seen you and Ted together, Bryn. Are you the same person? Answer for him, indeed! ;-)


Well we do share a name but not a continent :p
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