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Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

FourPart;1479132 wrote: It's EU laws that forbid the use of cardboard boxes for shoppers in Supermarkets.


I would be interested to find out where you learned this, and point me there.
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Post by FourPart »

Bruv;1479173 wrote: I would be interested to find out where you learned this, and point me there.


The principle is sound. The practice is not.

Packaging Regulations | WasteCare
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Post by Bruv »

FourPart;1479184 wrote: The principle is sound. The practice is not.

Packaging Regulations | WasteCare


Where does it say supermarkets can't pass use of boxes to customers ?

The only store locally that used to re-use boxes routinely was Lidl and I rarely go near, however I did notice they now have bags for purchase when I was last in there, and no boxes available.
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Post by FourPart »

There always used to be a bay specifically for boxes for customers' use in nearly all supermarkets. Then came the financial penalties.
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Post by gmc »

posted by fourpart

As for re-writing the constitution, I notice you use the words "attempted to re-write the constitution". That's about right, isn't it? ATTEMPTED. Not re-written, ATTEMPTED. As I say, too much dislike for this country in Europe for anything we suggest to make any difference. Rather like the way Westminster treats Scotland, yes?


They did rewrite but it was wrecj]=kd by the likes of the tories and ukip who voted against it along with all the other right wing parties.

Not saying there isnlt a lot wrong with europe - there is indeed - but it would be better to work with others to sort it out rather than threatening to take the ball away under the delusion that it's actually ours is not going to work. Europe doesn't need us as much as you think if we leave the only trade deal we will get will be what they can be bothered offering and we will just have to accept it. You should only negotiate from a position of strength we'll be sitting cap in hand if they call our bluff.
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Post by FourPart »

gmc;1479199 wrote: posted by fourpart



They did rewrite but it was wrecj]=kd by the likes of the tories and ukip who voted against it along with all the other right wing parties.

Not saying there isnlt a lot wrong with europe - there is indeed - but it would be better to work with others to sort it out rather than threatening to take the ball away under the delusion that it's actually ours is not going to work. Europe doesn't need us as much as you think if we leave the only trade deal we will get will be what they can be bothered offering and we will just have to accept it. You should only negotiate from a position of strength we'll be sitting cap in hand if they call our bluff.


Pardon me - Those were Smaug's words, not mine (although I do agree with the sentiment).
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Post by gmc »

FourPart;1479200 wrote: Pardon me - Those were Smaug's words, not mine (although I do agree with the sentiment).


:o sorry.
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Post by Smaug »

gmc;1479199 wrote: posted by fourpart



They did rewrite but it was wrecj]=kd by the likes of the tories and ukip who voted against it along with all the other right wing parties.

Not saying there isnlt a lot wrong with europe - there is indeed - but it would be better to work with others to sort it out rather than threatening to take the ball away under the delusion that it's actually ours is not going to work. Europe doesn't need us as much as you think if we leave the only trade deal we will get will be what they can be bothered offering and we will just have to accept it. You should only negotiate from a position of strength we'll be sitting cap in hand if they call our bluff.


Maybe now that David "Carry-on" is faced (possibly) by a referendum on EU membership, he'll get his act together and try some real negotiating on Europe and it's many issues. We shall see. I'm not too hopeful that anything worthwhile will emerge, though. However, we IMPORT far more from the EU than we EXPORT, thus more "British" money is PAID TO Europe in this field than money RECEIVED FROM Europe. In my book, that means they need us (Financially) more than we need them (when one considers the 40 BILLION we pay to belong...).

As for sitting "cap in hand" I doubt it, if one considers the trade gap AND our contribution of 40 BILLION to EU coffers annually. It's a millstone! Outside the EU, we would be free to trade with whom we prefer. We have done this for CENTURIES prior to the advent of the EU, so why can't we do it again? If Europe needs anything we produce, they would still be free to import from us. There would probably be a small tariff, around 1 or 2 percent, as opposed to it being nearly free, as at present.

Have we lost the will to live here,or what?!

My only regrets will be the loss of a higher court (Strasbourg) to appeal to, and the human rights act. We could well be in a mess with our "humanities" and "justice"without them....What a paradox, eh? The tories could have renegotiated years ago, but blew it by being inflexible and obstructive to the negotiation process. Now they DO want serious negotiations, Europe is sceptical, and who can blame them? They may well see this as "Perfidious Albion" up to it's old tricks again...
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Post by gmc »

Smaug;1479204 wrote: Maybe now that David "Carry-on" is faced (possibly) by a referendum on EU membership, he'll get his act together and try some real negotiating on Europe and it's many issues. We shall see. I'm not too hopeful that anything worthwhile will emerge, though. However, we IMPORT far more from the EU than we EXPORT, thus more "British" money is PAID TO Europe in this field than money RECEIVED FROM Europe. In my book, that means they need us (Financially) more than we need them (when one considers the 40 BILLION we pay to belong...).

As for sitting "cap in hand" I doubt it, if one considers the trade gap AND our contribution of 40 BILLION to EU coffers annually. It's a millstone! Outside the EU, we would be free to trade with whom we prefer. We have done this for CENTURIES prior to the advent of the EU, so why can't we do it again? If Europe needs anything we produce, they would still be free to import from us. There would probably be a small tariff, around 1 or 2 percent, as opposed to it being nearly free, as at present.

Have we lost the will to live here,or what?!

My only regrets will be the loss of a higher court (Strasbourg) to appeal to, and the human rights act. We could well be in a mess with our "humanities" and "justice"without them....What a paradox, eh? The tories could have renegotiated years ago, but blew it by being inflexible and obstructive to the negotiation process. Now they DO want serious negotiations, Europe is sceptical, and who can blame them? They may well see this as "Perfidious Albion" up to it's old tricks again...


have you ever looked at what we import from europe? You do understand we need to import most of our food and raw materials don't you?

Top UK Imports

we used to be a major indiustrial nation thanks toi a succession of governments that think you can have an neconomy based on financial services and coffee shops we've lost a lot and now hjave parties like ukip that thinks the rest of thenbwold owes us a living.

It's a millstone! Outside the EU, we would be free to trade with whom we prefer. We have done this for CENTURIES prior to the advent of the EU, so why can't we do it again?


:-5:-5 Industry and empire the two went hand in hand. We still import from our former empire except now we import finished goods rather than the raw materials to manufacture here. The US also usd to be a major ecporter of manufactured goods but like us manufature got shifted abroad to lower cost centres and all the geniuses who thiought that made economic sense forgot you need a well paid populace able tio buy all the cheap imports. Adam smith is probably birling in his grave.

OK I have to ask. What maks you think the eu stops us trading with whoever we like? You keep telling us most of our trade is with the rest of the world and we don't need the eu so make up your mind which is right.
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Post by Smaug »

gmc;1479210 wrote: have you ever looked at what we import from europe? You do understand we need to import most of our food and raw materials don't you?

Top UK Imports

we used to be a major indiustrial nation thanks toi a succession of governments that think you can have an neconomy based on financial services and coffee shops we've lost a lot and now hjave parties like ukip that thinks the rest of thenbwold owes us a living.



:-5:-5 Industry and empire the two went hand in hand. We still import from our former empire except now we import finished goods rather than the raw materials to manufacture here. The US also usd to be a major ecporter of manufactured goods but like us manufature got shifted abroad to lower cost centres and all the geniuses who thiought that made economic sense forgot you need a well paid populace able tio buy all the cheap imports. Adam smith is probably birling in his grave.

OK I have to ask. What maks you think the eu stops us trading with whoever we like? You keep telling us most of our trade is with the rest of the world and we don't need the eu so make up your mind which is right.


Quite a lot of companies are saying that trade and financial services are being hampered by "red tape". This problem is ongoing, though the commission is trying to tackle this, there's clearly a long way to go... tried to paste this link, but it wouldn't... //www.gov.uk/removing-trade-barriers-for-uk-exporters.

I agree about the removal of manufacturing abroad being short-sighted, as people need money to buy things. As it stands, much of the wealth is in too few pockets. The by-product of this is lower wages and fewer jobs. As for world trade, we used to trade for many products with the Commonwealth at beneficial rates (until we joined the common market), then we lost much of that, as many Commonwealth nations felt that we'd turned our backs on them!

For me, the ideal situation would be a "free field" for Import/export of goods, and TARGETTED IMMIGRATION to fill jobs that employers struggle to fill, as opposed to "open-door" immigration, which is changing the character of this land, and not for the better ( E. European criminals/illegal immigrants, extreme Islamists, health tourists, benefit tourists etc.). I'm afraid that Europe (thus far) has not been too good for us.

Also, we do import a lot of food from the Eu, far more than I'm comfortable with. What happens if they have none to spare one day, or they are charging more than we can afford? Or global extreme weather destroys food harvests? You do know, I presume, that this country only produces about 30% of it's own food requirements... a major failing! Yet one more "sword of Damocles" over our heads...
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Post by Bruv »

Here is that LINK
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Post by FourPart »

Yes. Real economic sense. Most of our stuff is imported from Europe. We pay a fortune in Subscription Fees for the privilege of doing so, only about a quarter of which is refunded in rebates. We also do loads of trading with non-EU countris - probably most of it, yet we are told it would be an economic disaster for the country if we were to leave.

Key Points

Exports for March 2015 are £11.8 billion. This is an increase of £0.8 billion (7.8 per cent) compared with last month, and a decrease of £2.0 billion (14.8 per cent) compared with March 2014.

Imports for March 2015 are £19.7 billion. This is an increase of £1.7 billion (9.4 per cent) compared with last month, and an increase of £0.6 billion (3.2 per cent) compared with March 2014.

Europe:



The UK remains a net importer this month, with imports exceeding exports by £7.9 billion. This is an increase of £0.8 billion (11.8 per cent) compared with last month, and an increase of £2.6 billion (50.3 per cent) compared with March 2014.
(https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/ ... EuOTS.aspx)

Non Europe:

Non-EU Exports for March 2015 are £16.5 billion. This is an increase of £4.5 billion (38.0 per cent) compared with last month and an increase of £2.9 billion (21.7 per cent) compared with March 2014.

Non-EU Imports for March 2015 are £16.3 billion. This is an increase of £0.3 billion (1.8 per cent) compared with last month, and an increase of £0.5 billion (2.9 per cent) compared with March 2014.

Because of the large increase in exports, the UK is now a net exporter this month, with exports exceeding imports by £0.1 billion.
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/ ... EuOTS.aspx

The figures seem to show that our trade figures are doing better outside of Europe than within it - and that doesn't include what we have to pay into Europe - nor do we have to abide by their laws. We clearly remain the EU Cash Cow.
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Post by Smaug »

Bruv;1479222 wrote: Here is that LINK


Thanks Bruv. The damn thing just would not work.:-5( Must have known it was me...:-3)
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Post by spot »

I note the Prime Minister is struggling to get his Euro-deal signed off at the EU summit in Brussels.

Ideally he'll fail to such an extent that he campaigns against a Yes Stay In vote. That way I'll be able to vote Yes without supporting so-called David Cameron. I'd be delighted to stay in without his prejudicial revised terms. Given the chance to vote against the party line might well increase the Yes vote nationally.
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Post by Bruv »

Cameron wants to stay in, but you want him to fail to get enhanced terms so that he changes his mind enough to promote an Out vote, so that you can contentedly vote for the In option ?

My slant on it is that he has made a big deal of his international statesmanship opposing the Euro Parliament in a bid to get the under dog, Britain a better deal. He is promoting himself and the Conservative government..............nothing else. Whatever the outcome in Brussels he will come out of it as a great Prime Minister or so he and his followers will have it. He has enhanced his own reputation and the chances of a Tory victory next election, making the Tories a party of the people while at the same time the party for business....................not a lot will change, whatever the outcome and whatever the result of the vote.
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Post by gmc »

This has got bugger all to do with what is good for the nation it's fuelledf by internal tory party politics hyped by by the right wing media. Have you looked at ukip's policies? they're fascist party economically the tories slightkly less so and labout have disappeared upo their own backside looking for the answer, it still hasn;t dawned on them why they lost the last election and they;'re going to be so busy infighting corbyn doesn't have a chance.

If the tories were hinest abioiut their pland to privatise the NHS they would not get elected but people fall for the guff they get in the daily mail and the poor reporting by the news media on the issues at hand. Sod austerity jail the bankers and any Mp that filddles his expenses should be barred from standing.
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Post by FourPart »

The curious thing is that apart from the Nationalist parties, such as UKIP, the main parties policies regarding Europe seem to be in agreement - not that you would think it with their constant bickering. However, despite the official party lines, it does appear that the majority of the British public want Out. They are sick & tired of seeing Britain having to abide by EU rules, while other countries flout them to their own ends, paying in far more than we get from it, paying migrants benefits, not only to fund their living here, but to fund their families who have never even stepped foot in the country, not having any choice but to allow unlimited migrants entering the country, happy to work for less than minimum wage, which is a fortune to them, compared to their own country's economy, forcing down wage levels due to supply & demand (no wonder the Tories are pro-Europe - the wealthy businesses get their labour even cheaper). Then there is the problem where those migrants don't even speak the language. This is particularly a problem in Nursing & Care, where much of the migrant labour is concerned. I work in Care, and I can tell you it is a major issue. The carers who can barely speak English can't understand or be understood by the clients. They can't understand the instructions, written or verbal - which is a major problem when it comes to medications. When they have to phone into the office communication is a nightmare.

If the EU were to be what it was originally intended as (i.e. a Trade Treaty), I would be all in favour of it, but it has evolved into a Central Government which is detrimental to our own interests, which is not what we initially voted for. Even with all these 'deals' that Cameron is hoping for, they can simply be vetoed, so even if the referendum goes in favour of remaining in the EU on the basis of those deals, the chances are that they will simply be nullified once we are recommitted.

I say out of EU & return to a simple Trade Treaty, as was intended in the first place.
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1492913 wrote: not having any choice but to allow unlimited migrants entering the country, happy to work for less than minimum wage, which is a fortune to them, compared to their own country's economy, forcing down wage levels due to supply & demand (no wonder the Tories are pro-Europe - the wealthy businesses get their labour even cheaper). Then there is the problem where those migrants don't even speak the language.We have a very similar problem in Cornwall with Lancastrians and Yorkists arriving every summer, taking jobs in our shops and hotels to fund their windsurfing with their impenetrable Ee Ba Gum attempts at the Queen's English and refusal to acknowledge a pasty as food. When we were self-governing down here we had laws against the likes of them crossing the Tamar, we had the legal right to return them to their parish of birth and charge them the cost of transportation. Then some self-serving London politicians gave these Northerners the right to work and reside anywhere in England. Honestly, you couldn't make it up, that's exactly what happened. I blame the Black Death. What this county needs is a return to the fundamental natural law of the land that nobody can leave their village without the written consent of their feudal overlord unless they're rich.
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Post by Saint_ »

gmc;1492909 wrote: fuelledf slightkly labout hasn;t they;'re hinest abioiut pland Sod Mp.


Hey, gmc. Are you feeling alright?
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Post by Bruv »

spot;1492919 wrote: We have a very similar problem in Cornwall with Lancastrians and Yorkists arriving every summer, taking jobs in our shops and hotels to fund their windsurfing with their impenetrable Ee Ba Gum attempts at the Queen's English and refusal to acknowledge a pasty as food. When we were self-governing down here we had laws against the likes of them crossing the Tamar, we had the legal right to return them to their parish of birth and charge them the cost of transportation. Then some self-serving London politicians gave these Northerners the right to work and reside anywhere in England. Honestly, you couldn't make it up, that's exactly what happened. I blame the Black Death. What this county needs is a return to the fundamental natural law of the land that nobody can leave their village without the written consent of their feudal overlord unless they're rich.


A bit simplistic wouldn't you agree?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Bruv;1492931 wrote: A bit simplistic wouldn't you agree?


That depends on whether you see the EU as a federal state or a common market. I thought it made the point Spot intended it to make.
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Post by Bruv »

Bryn Mawr;1492932 wrote: That depends on whether you see the EU as a federal state or a common market. I thought it made the point Spot intended it to make.


Either way Bryn, overly simplistic sorry.

Spot with his left leaning perspective sees the world differently to the women behind the till at the Co-op and her Gas engineer husband.

Their town's population has altered dramatically over the past 20 odd years, and as Daily Mail readers, they wont be considering pasty eating Lancastrians or the historical migration of Huguenots, their concern is the percentage of strange accents,and peculiar styles of dress they see around town these days.

They may be ill informed and their fears might be unfounded and unrealistic,but they have the vote.
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Post by gmc »

Saint_;1492930 wrote: Hey, gmc. Are you feeling alright?


My typing sucks sometimes I don't check things properly especially late at night.

When we joined the common market we were bankrupt an there was a tremendous surge in inward investment epecially from japanese companies because we were now members (nit maggie thatcher who took the credit for it all) what people forget is that much of that export business is by foreign owned companies the question is if we are no longer memnbers what will happen to that continuing investment will we face trade barriers that we can get round but only if we obey eu rules over which we have no say. Nissan for instance is part owned by renault BMW own big chunks of the british car industry most of our electronics are european or american why base manufacturing and investment in a country outside the major trading areas it's not as though the british economy is the powerhouse it once was. London may be major banking centre because of historical factors that no longer apply we already have politicians bending over desks to try and stop them leaving by easing up on regulation and letting them do as they please. They have no real economic reason to stay.

The immigration that really annoys people and which they are not allowd to spek about is not from the eu but pakistan, india and east africa as out right wing politicians hang on to dreams of empire. Back in the seventies and eighties people were pointing out how importing people with a different cuturte would alter the nature of britain. At leasst east european have a common cuklture, want to learn our language and go to the same schools. What happens to all the expats working and living in europe do you really think the spanish are going to allow british OAP's to continue to be a drain on their health service you can go on and on. UKIP want to undo all the health anmd safety regulation that comes from europe yet what causes the prioblem is local authorities applying the rules in ways never intended. When you're being tailgated by a forty ton artic how much safer will youi be without all the regulations regarding working hours? happily drivers can't be asked if they "volunteer" to work longer hours by their employers.

A beitian ruled by the likes of ukip and the right wing of the tory oparty would be a fascist nightmare.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Bruv;1492933 wrote: Either way Bryn, overly simplistic sorry.

Spot with his left leaning perspective sees the world differently to the women behind the till at the Co-op and her Gas engineer husband.

Their town's population has altered dramatically over the past 20 odd years, and as Daily Mail readers, they wont be considering pasty eating Lancastrians or the historical migration of Huguenots, their concern is the percentage of strange accents,and peculiar styles of dress they see around town these days.

They may be ill informed and their fears might be unfounded and unrealistic,but they have the vote.


The specific detail of the people mentioned is immaterial, the attitude portrayed is identical.
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Post by Betty Boop »

Bruv;1492931 wrote: A bit simplistic wouldn't you agree?


I thought it was a brilliant comparison, Spot isn't even Cornish which just made it all the more funny for me. Spot gives the impression of an 100 year old Cornishman who doesn't approve of change. :wah:
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Post by Bruv »

Bryn Mawr;1492947 wrote: The specific detail of the people mentioned is immaterial, the attitude portrayed is identical.


Betty Boop;1492950 wrote: I thought it was a brilliant comparison, Spot isn't even Cornish which just made it all the more funny for me. Spot gives the impression of an 100 year old Cornishman who doesn't approve of change. :wah:


As a bit of humorous whimsy it is brilliant,but it shows a disregard for his fellows concerns about the events in the world beyond the borders of Cornwall.

Whether we like it or not there is unease amongst many of the common folk across the country,indeed across Europe.

Some people are genuinely worried about the rise in foreign looking and acting people, not racists by any means, but they are being emboldened by the real racists.

As a non racist married to a black foreigner, I have concerns, can anybody explain why I shouldn't have such fears for the future.

Talking about the history of the UK is of no use right now.
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Post by FourPart »

spot;1492919 wrote: We have a very similar problem in Cornwall with Lancastrians and Yorkists arriving every summer, taking jobs in our shops and hotels to fund their windsurfing with their impenetrable Ee Ba Gum attempts at the Queen's English and refusal to acknowledge a pasty as food. When we were self-governing down here we had laws against the likes of them crossing the Tamar, we had the legal right to return them to their parish of birth and charge them the cost of transportation. Then some self-serving London politicians gave these Northerners the right to work and reside anywhere in England. Honestly, you couldn't make it up, that's exactly what happened. I blame the Black Death. What this county needs is a return to the fundamental natural law of the land that nobody can leave their village without the written consent of their feudal overlord unless they're rich.


Absolutely...

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Post by spot »

We're in March now.

The referendum is on Thursday, 23 June 2016 and asks "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?".

Presumably non-EU migration will be unchanged by the result. Odd, really, since non-EU migration is high on the list of things the BNP disapproves of.

I have no idea which way the vote will go. What's worse, I have no idea what the long-term consequence of either a remain or leave vote would be. I suspect a leave vote will be an economic catastrophe for decades.

Anyway. We could lay our bets here and make a few predictions.

I anticipate a leave majority, and no subsequent replay - I think a leave vote will be irreversible.
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Post by Snowfire »

If the UK does vote to leave, who do you think will follow ? What are they whispering amongst the grass roots in the rest of Europe. Some might just wave us goodbye but if it's as painless as they say, other member states might demand their own referendum
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Post by spot »

We had a hell of a job actually getting accepted, back when we applied, and getting in was the foundation of our economic recovery. People have forgotten.

I can't see any other country leaving in our wake.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Snowfire;1493397 wrote: If the UK does vote to leave, who do you think will follow ? What are they whispering amongst the grass roots in the rest of Europe. Some might just wave us goodbye but if it's as painless as they say, other member states might demand their own referendum


Spain and Greece are the two with large and active anti-EU parties, they'd be the prime candidates.
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Post by spot »

You feel people might be tempted to salt away the Peseta or Drachma for their old age? Hyper-inflation would become a spectator sport.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1493401 wrote: You feel people might be tempted to salt away the Peseta or Drachma for their old age? Hyper-inflation would become a spectator sport.


With the "victory" of "UKIP" in the UK the Golden Dawn and their Spanish equivalent would make political capital and force the issue before the consequences became apparent.

It's only after the deed was done that hyper-inflation would become a spectator sport.
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Post by spot »

You're cutting heavily into my emigration options if the leave vote succeeds. I'll be reduced to an attic studio in Montmartre at this rate.
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Post by FourPart »

Switzerland has also withdrawn its application for membership.

As seen on Question Time, last night, although both the official Labour & Tory Party Lines are pro Europe, they are both campaigning their case using negative scaremongery on why we should not leave, rather than on why we should stay - not the ideology behind it, but down to earth facts & figures. It is one thing that Cameron & Corbyn seem to agree with, yet they both seem to be at each other's throats about it.

As far as I see it, there are other countries who are in Europe, but not part of the EU, who are getting along just fine without it. They continue to trade. They have control over their own borders. They have sovereignty over their own Government & make their own laws. And on top of all that, they don't have to pay an exorbitant fee for the privilege of being surrendering their rights to the bureaucrats.

Under the rules of the EU we have to import a set amount of goods from member states. By not being a member we would have to revert to building our own industry in order to be more self sufficient. Could we cope with having to employ more people to operate these industries? What a disaster it would be to have to source the steel used for HS2 with British Steel.

The UK trades with other countries all around the world, yet we don't have to be in any sort of economic Central Governmental Union in order to do so.

The original concept of the Common Market was fine, but it simply got too out of hand. At the start I was all in favour of it - I suppose in many ways I still am - at least in favour of the original ideal. However, my Grandfather was vehemently opposed to it. He predicted it turning into exactly what it has turned into.
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Post by gmc »

Could we cope with having to employ more people to operate these industries? What a disaster it would be to have to source the steel used for HS2 with British Steel.




It's not european steel that has ended steel production in britain it's chinese imports which cameron is more than happy to favour over uk industry.

Under the rules of the EU we have to import a set amount of goods from member states.

Where'd you get that one from?

The original concept of the Common Market was fine, but it simply got too out of hand. At the start I was all in favour of it - I suppose in many ways I still am - at least in favour of the original ideal. However, my Grandfather was vehemently opposed to it. He predicted it turning into exactly what it has turned into.


Mowstly agree with you there. It was the wartime generation that took us in to the common market much tio the surprise of the no campaigners (who were the iones that oushed for a referendum just a they are now) that expected xenophobia and blind patriotism to win the day. It was also the wartime generation that created the welfare state and set out to stop the injustuices of the past being continued. The right are ever with us I think we live in an era when religion and fascist economic policies are exerting themselves yet again. If you look at what the likes of ukip actually propose to do if they had a chance you'll and what the tories are actually doping see what I mean on the side of the workers they are not.

The time to have had a referendum was at the maastricht treaty then as now we have a government that the majority of the voters actually voted against. I'm actually in two minds about it who do youn trust the daily mail and ukip or david cameron what a pitiful bunch of politicians we have indeed.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1493412 wrote: what a pitiful bunch of politicians we have indeed.All these Tory politicians pressing to leave is for party political benefit, it has nothing to do with the well-being of Britain. It's to remove the split in their party which has caused problems and rebellions for the last forty years and led to naturally-Conservative voters supporting splinter groups like UKIP and the BNP. If the referendum does return a remain verdict then the Conservative split will continue for another generation as an unmendable division I would be happy to watch indefinitely.
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Post by FourPart »

I believe it's far more complex than that. It's something that totally crosses Party Lines. It is the Official Party Policy that both Labour & Tory are Pro-Europe - not that you would think so when you see them arguing about it, but that is clearly not the opinion of all their members (including myself). Unless you form your own Political Party, no one party is ever going to have policies that you completely agree with. It's a matter of mix & match. Theoretically Cameron is making the EU issue a 'Free Vote', whilst at the same time making it clear that his members had better watch their backs if they go against his own views. There are those who truly believe in Europe. There are those who are totally against. And there are those who are against, but are merely lap-dog toadies who just do as they're told. Regrettably I believe this is probably true of Labour as well.
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1493436 wrote: I believe it's far more complex than that. It's something that totally crosses Party Lines.Except the Conservative party has split into spin-off parties like UKIP and the BNP, while Labour hasn't. I consider that a very simple distinction.

If the referendum returns a Remain result then the Conservative party will stay split indefinitely. I'm all in favour of that as an outcome.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by FourPart »

Except that Facist Parties such as BNP are more concerned with non Caucasian that non-British. At least UKIP has some level of respectability.

My point is, though that there are Party members / MPs who are both for & against the EU in both Labour & Tory. Much of the forthcoming campaign, I suspect, will be based on who will toe the Party Line, rather than stand by their own principles.
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1493447 wrote: At least UKIP has some level of respectability.It does? You'll be telling me next that pigs fly.
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Post by FourPart »

spot;1493456 wrote: It does? You'll be telling me next that pigs fly.
I did say 'some'.

At least they are open about their policies. Unlike other Nationalist organisations (eg BNP, NF, Britain First, EDL, etc) they do not campaign by putting on provocative demonstrations by a load of thugs. Plus, as we know, after the EU Elections they ended up with quite a high MEP representation. Surely even that gives them a certain level of respectability. It certainly wouldn't have been gained through high finances & undeclared tax deals, as has been demonstrated by the Tories.
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Post by Saint_ »

spot;1493396 wrote: I suspect a leave vote will be an economic catastrophe for decades..


According to TIME magazien, the smart money bet is on exactly that.
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Post by Saint_ »

According to the American news this morning, the election is over. The rich have made it clear through their investing the Britain will not leave the European Union. (When people begin to vote with their money, you can usually tell their minds a lot better than some casual poll.) Personally, I think it was the murder that finished the vote. People who were undecided were probably thinking, "You mean people who are for leaving are like that rabid jerk? Well I'n not like him!"
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Saint_;1497365 wrote: According to the American news this morning, the election is over. The rich have made it clear through their investing the Britain will not leave the European Union. (When people begin to vote with their money, you can usually tell their minds a lot better than some casual poll.) Personally, I think it was the murder that finished the vote. People who were undecided were probably thinking, "You mean people who are for leaving are like that rabid jerk? Well I'n not like him!"


Certainly the markets are for staying in but I'm not sure the vote is cut and dried yet - even today's opinions polls are too close to call.
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Post by Wandrin »

How binding is the vote? If the vote goes for exit, what is the likelihood that the politicians will delay, then reframe the question and have another referendum?
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Post by spot »

Totally binding if it says Leave, it will lead to Britain exiting the treaties relating to the European Union. It won't shut up the Leavers if the vote says Remain though, they'll be up for another as soon as they can arrange it. Offering a referendum in the first place was so-called Cameron's ploy to get another term in government, it was utterly unprincipled chicanery.

If the vote causes our exit from the EU there will be new arrangements relating to all that the treaties covered, but we'll have no representation in the EU Parliament and no voice at the EU ministerial summits.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by Bruv »

Wandrin;1497384 wrote: How binding is the vote? If the vote goes for exit, what is the likelihood that the politicians will delay, then reframe the question and have another referendum?


What sort of question is that ?

There are no hanging chads over here..............think that's what they called them.
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Post by Wandrin »

Bruv;1497387 wrote: What sort of question is that ?

There are no hanging chads over here..............think that's what they called them.


Over here, in some states there are two different types of ballot measures. One type basically becomes law if passed. The other type just strongly urges the legislature to deal with a matter.

I wasn't sure if the Brexit referendum was to express popular sentiment demanding action or was binding. That has now been clarified.
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Post by flopstock »

Just listened to Jeremy Corban on Brexit and could hardly stayed focused as he seemed to gasp for air with every sentence. Is the guy ill?
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