ForumGarden

I am getting to the point where I just don't know what to say to people who wish me a happy holiday that I don''t even celebrate or believe in. I don't want to insult them, but I don't want to encourage them either. So its a tuff moment of manipulation. Do I stab their belief by responding, " Look, I don't celebrate Easter." Or Christmas, or birthdays, or St. Pactricks day, or valentines day; the list just goes on and on.

I realize at the moment they are just being nice about their choice of celebration; but I view it to be pagan originated and see nothing in them that I celebrate. I usually say, " And to you", but I grow tired of that. Yet I am not going to take the opportunity to tell them the real history of what they celebrate, its just not motivating to me to rip into peoples beliefs at these kinds of times when they are wishing what they think is good for you.

So I find this is getting unconmfortable to me and awkward; but I am a reasonable man; I think I need a new standard in my response. One that is respectful but clear. But this whole delima brings up several issues.

Chill a little.

People lie every day,for instance "How are you today?" you could always tell them the truth, but you normally don't do you?

Wish them well, that is the truth isn't it?

Mickiel;1452502 wrote: So I find this is getting unconmfortable to me and awkward; but I am a reasonable man; I think I need a new standard in my response. One that is respectful but clear.


What's wrong with, "I don't celebrate _________, but thank you anyway!"

It's direct, to the point and a respectful response.

Bruv;1452504 wrote: Chill a little.

People lie every day,for instance "How are you today?" you could always tell them the truth, but you normally don't do you?

Wish them well, that is the truth isn't it?




That is true, yes. And that is one of the abnormal circumstances that we habitually fall into each time; making the response no better than the motivation involved with those who ask. Why keep lying To please someonelse?

Mustang;1452507 wrote: What's wrong with, "I don't celebrate _________, but thank you anyway!"

It's direct, to the point and a respectful response.




It is, and its perhaps one of the best I have tried. Even that one has caused a bit of strange contentment between me and the greeter from then on. These holidays and their traditions have swept their way into the heart of world societys. Its like we are kind of enslaved to them partly. And should that even be?

A simple "Thank you" might suffice.

Except for the hopefully rare occasion when you actually wish to make a point of something with someone, what's the point of taking the conversation anywhere?

LarsMac;1452513 wrote: A simple "Thank you" might suffice.

Except for the hopefully rare occasion when you actually wish to make a point of something with someone, what's the point of taking the conversation anywhere?




I have done the thank most of the time, and still feel personally betrayed for offering that. I want to say, " Hey, look, I don't get into that holiday greeting because I don't agree with the history of the holiday, nor mixing pagan history with religious overtones." But that offers a time consuming conversation, when usually the greeting is a " Passer by greeting." And those two offerings just don't match.

So the holiday greeting is not a happy one to me, but I understand the happiness on the other end. Yet I think to myself, goodness, all this happiness coming from an origin that is absolutely nothing like the greeter is even aware of. And I think, man, whatelse in life are we getting so much happiness and pleasure from, not even caring where we got it from?

I would guess that a relatively small portion of those who wish you a happy holiday are talking about the religious implications of a specific religious tradition. Many are referring to a general holiday in the spring, with cultural associations of bright clothing and family dinners. Many are simply referring to a celebration of springtime. If you look at the Hallmark card selections under the topic of "easter", most have nothing to do with religious dogma and are just bright cheerful springtime cards.

You could respond to those wishing you happy holidays with, "And a beautiful springtime it is!" and most people would cheerfully nod without reading anything into the fact that you used different words than they.

A simple greeting; a simple wish from someonelse can be packed with a history that is full of who knows what. Look how powerful " Influence" can be. Influence can creep into a language, a custom, a tradition, a whole generation of a family; and the custom may have originated from Witches! And we don't take the time to trace it.

Wandrin;1452516 wrote: I would guess that a relatively small portion of those who wish you a happy holiday are talking about the religious implications of a specific religious tradition. Many are referring to a general holiday in the spring, with cultural associations of bright clothing and family dinners. Many are simply referring to a celebration of springtime. If you look at the Hallmark card selections under the topic of "easter", most have nothing to do with religious dogma and are just bright cheerful springtime cards.

You could respond to those wishing you happy holidays with, "And a beautiful springtime it is!" and most people would cheerfully nod without reading anything into the fact that you used different words than they.




Well thats true; but look at what we are doing in the meantime; we are avoiding the way one has their read on reality, by " Avoiding their reality." And what does that do for them?

What, just leave them on fantasy island?

"Thank you, and the same to you!" pretty much takes care of it.

We get this all the time. Outside of our close circle of friends and acquaintances, most people who know my wife is Jewish assume that I am too, and vice-versa.

Mark Aspam;1452520 wrote: "Thank you, and the same to you!" pretty much takes care of it.

We get this all the time. Outside of our close circle of friends and acquaintances, most people who know my wife is Jewish assume that I am too, and vice-versa.




Yes but that response basically is an " Agreement from you that you sanction their celebration." Is it not?

True, most are just saying something, with no meaning behind it. It is rather a thoughtless thing, on their part.

You can choose to spend your energy on them to make a point, which few of them will even get, and leave them wondering "What's up with that guy?"

or you can nod and get on with your day leaving them wallowing in their ignorance.

Let the spirit guide you.

Mickiel;1452521 wrote: Yes but that response basically is an " Agreement from you that you sanction their celebration." Is it not?If by "sanction" you mean acknowledge their right to celebrate it, sure, why not?

Now, if the "holiday" in question was, say, Hitler's birthday and something equally loathsome, that would be different.

But that's never happened, nor is it likely to.

LarsMac;1452522 wrote: True, most are just saying something, with no meaning behind it. It is rather a thoughtless thing, on their part.

You can choose to spend your energy on them to make a point, which few of them will even get, and leave them wondering "What's up with that guy?"

or you can nod and get on with your day leaving them wallowing in their ignorance.

Let the spirit guide you.


This is kind of funny, but basically its true. And thats what I am thinking, there has to be a better way; a more fulfilling solution.

And I am not saying that I know it.

Mark Aspam;1452523 wrote: If by "sanction" you mean acknowledge their right to celebrate it, sure, why not?

Now, if the "holiday" in question was, say, Hitler's birthday and something equally loathsome, that would be different.

But that's never happened, nor is it likely to.




A fair point; people hold a right to celebrate what they want, even Hitlers birthday. But we hold individual control of how we extend or expend our " Energy in our beliefs and unbeliefs." Is there a release of our energy when we allow others celebrations , that we don't celebrate ourselves, to have dominance in the moments of manipulation?

Is our silence their magnified voice?

Is our nod to their tradition, becoming a tradition unto us? We nod and smile, instead of taking a stand and voicing our disagreement?

So when someone says to me, " Happy Holidays", I don't get my happiness from holidays, so its really not saying that to me; what it says to me is that we are ruled as a society, by things from our past, flavored with the ways of our present. And that mixture does not produce a happy picture to me.

You know, we mix religion with bunny rabbits and eggs; we mix church with santa and his elves; we mix the bible with celebrating our own birth; and we think this water and oil is mixing real good.

We mix politics with all that stuff as well. We think Valentines day is a real live Sadie Hawkins day. Like Neanderthals we capture our women and think we have a traditional right to " Lord it over them." Then we turn these traditions and Holidays, into religions.

We turn these customs into politics, and some of them make it into law.

Mickiel;1452533 wrote: You know, we mix religion with bunny rabbits and eggs; we mix church with santa and his elves; we mix the bible with celebrating our own birth; and we think this water and oil is mixing real good. We mix politics with all that stuff as well. Right now, I'm going to mix Christian Brothers with some cranberry juice and enjoy my evening!

Mickiel;1452533 wrote: You know, we mix religion with bunny rabbits and eggs; we mix church with santa and his elves; we mix the bible with celebrating our own birth; and we think this water and oil is mixing real good.

We mix politics with all that stuff as well. We think Valentines day is a real live Sadie Hawkins day. Like Neanderthals we capture our women and think we have a traditional right to " Lord it over them." Then we turn these traditions and Holidays, into religions.

We turn these customs into politics, and some of them make it into law.


You forgot the role of the corporations to promote each holiday as an obligation to buy things.

Mark Aspam;1452534 wrote: Right now, I'm going to mix Christian Brothers with some cranberry juice and enjoy my evening!


Thats a good mix

Wandrin;1452535 wrote: You forgot the role of the corporations to promote each holiday as an obligation to buy things.




Well thats right, this holiday stuff has produced some big big money. Holloween and Valentines day; Christmas and Easter, Birthdays, this is billions of dollars were talking about. But there is another power behind it in my view; Now, power is influence; influence is power> okay then one can be EVIDENCE of the other, and I know some of you will resist that. Where there is power, there is influence from somewhere. Where there exist influence, there must be a power somewhere. There has to be a source. There has to be an ignition.

What was the source of these holidays? Who started them and why? Why have they influenced so many in so many ways? Why have they grown to be so influencial? And how did religion get into this fray?

Mark Aspam;1452534 wrote: Right now, I'm going to mix Christian Brothers with some cranberry juice and enjoy my evening!




And what is it about these holidays that seem to intice so many to drink?

Look at influence; Influence | Define Influence at Dictionary.com

A complelling force that will produce action on the behavior, opinion, beliefs and practices of others.

You think we are alone on this marvel planet?

You think absolutely nothing is influencing us?

I certainly think there are influences " Other than human" out there. They may not be little green monsters, but whatever they are; they have definite power. And I think they influenced these holidays and our politics and our cultures and our educations and our religions.

Whatever we do, we have to think our way through life, even consider life itself while we are thinking. So, will you think with me in this thread? Where did the concepts of right and wrong come from? How did they develop within humanity and were they uninfluenced by outside powers? I mean, look at how many people are doing wrong; look how people struggle to do right. Why are we even doing that?

There has to be a reason. And if there is " Reason", then there is influence and power. I think these all evidence the other.

Remember the old saying, " The devil is in the details." Or the hard part is when we get specific. Knowledge can be like that; the real hard things to learn and accept, are usually those hardest to even see.

We celebrate these holidays, get all geeked up and in a happy frenzy, spend all kinds of money, even decorate our houses, inside and out, to celebrate these traditions. And how many of us have actually studied the details of their origins? To see what it is we are getting all emotional and serious about. To where it effects our lives, our beliefs, our habits, and how we spend our money.

Surprisingly Australians spend the most money on holidays;

Australians the world's biggest spenders on holidays | News.com.au

Yet the trend is almost worldwide; the influence is costly, and the experience is pleasurable. Holidays can be cultural, or international; and a look into the celebrations of myths can prove they are historical.

Mickiel;1452559 wrote: Surprisingly Australians spend the most money on holidays;

Australians the world's biggest spenders on holidays | News.com.au

Yet the trend is almost worldwide; the influence is costly, and the experience is pleasurable. Holidays can be cultural, or international; and a look into the celebrations of myths can prove they are historical.


That is because Australia is pretty isolated,it it the price of air fares, they are not talking about easter eggs and xmas prezzies are they?

I shall now have a complex every time I wish anybody a happy time in case they are offended.

Don't you reckon you have over thought this one, considering it is only wishing you well for whatever reason?

Bruv;1452567 wrote: That is because Australia is pretty isolated,it it the price of air fares, they are not talking about easter eggs and xmas prezzies are they?

I shall now have a complex every time I wish anybody a happy time in case they are offended.

Don't you reckon you have over thought this one, considering it is only wishing you well for whatever reason?




Well it won't be the meat of the thread, only a booster to get me where I am going with this. And there are many ways I can go with it. It highlights beliefs in myths, because many of these holidays are padded with historical myths. And I wonder why we appeal to them so much. Something about the human pysche can latch on to things, OR, be easily influenced to grab hold of mythical traditions.

For example, I think I could have sold humanity on the first things that existed were robots. Its better to accept that robots peiced themselves together and assembled themselves from the raw materials avialible, than flesh could. I mean if we fall for the big bang, then we swallow that all the raw materials needed for creation to exist, just came into existence, then we can swallow that metals and Iron were amoung these happenstance materials; we can be convinced further that plastic and Cooper was there as well; Hey, why not a robot? I know I could get millions to believe it. If a human could put themselves together, then why not a robot could do it as well?

And I KNOW there would be people who accept this. Science and Religion may not agree with it, but who needs their agreement to get a myth swallowed?

Our fascination with myths can even distort our fascination with truth. Even where God is concerned, myths has played a role in detering us away from clear evidence.

Greek Mythological Holidays

The mythical Greek holidays has given a very large influence to the world of belief and unbelief in gods and how we worship these gods and how we deny their existence.

Yet though, as a " General rule", you still have to get people on the " Influence badwagon", even if we are just selling Turkeys. Can we get their money if we are offering " The Brooklyn Bridge " for sale? Can we get them to join, if our club meets on Jupiter? If we can get them to celebrate Easter bunnies and give gifts to each other on Christmas, we can get them to do anything.

Tell me thats not so!

And we can get you to contribute, if we can get you to say, " Happy Holiday."

Mickiel;1452569 wrote:

Its better to accept that robots peiced themselves together and assembled themselves from the raw materials avialible, than flesh could. I mean if we fall for the big bang, then we swallow that all the raw materials needed for creation to exist, just came into existence, then we can swallow that metals and Iron were amoung these happenstance materials; we can be convinced further that plastic and Cooper was there as well; Hey, why not a robot? I know I could get millions to believe it. If a human could put themselves together, then why not a robot could do it as well?




I shall take that as a yes to the "Have you over thought this" question.

Bruv;1452579 wrote: I shall take that as a yes to the "Have you over thought this" question.




I would rather over think something, than to under think it. The celebration of myths and pagan holidays is under thinking at its best, we even don't think about how we are reacting to these things, and how they affect our everyday lives.

Lets look at the history of some of these " Happy Holidays."

http://www.halloween-website.com/history.htm



"Happy Holloween"

Happy Birthday!



PAGANISM AND THE CELEBRATION OF “BIRTHDAYS”: | Anthropology of Islam

Happy Easter!



The Pagan origins of Easter

Merry Christmas, from an Atheist viewpoint that I like.

Origin of Christmas: A Pagan Holiday

Is there any day that you personally celebrate? Or do you celebrate every day of life that we are given?

Would you be offended by a pagan wishing you Happy Ostara?

No gifts or alcohol involved, just a celebration of the a season.

I don't think about how a holiday started, I think about what it means to me. I know that some of them are probably on the wrong day and started out as pagen holidays but Christmas to me means the birth of Jesus and Easter which I think is the most important one is about his resurrection. I believe in celebrating the idea. We give gifts to each other because God gave us the gift of Jesus. I know it has gotten very commercialized over the years but I just try not to get caught up in that. As for Halloween I don't do much, I do no decorating for that, I do take Jake trick or treating. As for Thanksgiving I don't decorate for that either, I go right into Christmas.

This 'happy holiday' thing is an American thing . I don't know how it started. how it's "celebrated". nor do I know why it's said. We're more specific.

fuzzywuzzy;1452957 wrote: This 'happy holiday' thing is an American thing . I don't know how it started. how it's "celebrated". nor do I know why it's said. We're more specific.


It started because white Americans refused to say 'Happy Kwanza'.

AnneBoleyn;1452967 wrote: It started because white Americans refused to say 'Happy Kwanza'.


Americans have a lot of euphemisms to mask the meanings of words they find unpalatable.

AnneBoleyn;1452967 wrote: It started because white Americans refused to say 'Happy Kwanza'.
:-3 :wah:

I remember "Happy Holidays" from long before they invented Kwanzaa

LarsMac;1452978 wrote: :-3 :wah:

I remember "Happy Holidays" from long before they invented Kwanzaa


Not with the same insistence you didn't; not with it's exploded popularity you didn't.

AnneBoleyn;1453019 wrote: Not with the same insistence you didn't; not with it's exploded popularity you didn't.


I can't say that I ever paid that much attention.

Back in the sixties, we lived in South Florida, and "Happy Holidays" was a very common greeting.

I Never even heard of Kwanzaa until some time in the 90s.

LarsMac;1453041 wrote: I can't say that I ever paid that much attention.

Back in the sixties, we lived in South Florida, and "Happy Holidays" was a very common greeting.

I Never even heard of Kwanzaa until some time in the 90s.


Was that because S. FLA is loaded with Jews? The ones who celebrate Chanukkah at the same time as Xmas? Anyway, quit kvetching, because I'm right. There are too many holidays demanding to be recognized by non-white persons seeking the same status as Xmas & for now, that ain't gonna happen. So, being generic is the most convenient. Of course, there are some very sensitive Xians out there who say this is proof they are being discriminated against. So be it.

AnneBoleyn;1453077 wrote: Was that because S. FLA is loaded with Jews? The ones who celebrate Chanukkah at the same time as Xmas? Very likely. I used to work for a chef in Palm Beach, who said "Happy Chanukkah" every time someone said "Merry Christmas".



AnneBoleyn;1453077 wrote: Anyway, quit kvetching, because I'm right. Kvetching? you call THAT "kvetching?"

I'm just saying, it wasn't Kwanzaa that brought on the Happy Holidays. They were saying that before the guy who invented Kwanzaa was a twinkle in his daddy's eye.

Heck, I don't think I have ever even met anyone who actually celebrates Kwanzaa.

AnneBoleyn;1453077 wrote: There are too many holidays demanding to be recognized by non-white persons seeking the same status as Xmas & for now, that ain't gonna happen. So, being generic is the most convenient. Of course, there are some very sensitive Xians out there who say this is proof they are being discriminated against. So be it.


Not arguing with ya on that one.

Hope6;1452937 wrote: I don't think about how a holiday started, I think about what it means to me. I know that some of them are probably on the wrong day and started out as pagen holidays but Christmas to me means the birth of Jesus and Easter which I think is the most important one is about his resurrection. I believe in celebrating the idea. We give gifts to each other because God gave us the gift of Jesus. I know it has gotten very commercialized over the years but I just try not to get caught up in that. As for Halloween I don't do much, I do no decorating for that, I do take Jake trick or treating. As for Thanksgiving I don't decorate for that either, I go right into Christmas.




Are you concerned with how God himself feels about how something started? Why do you think Jesus said , " In vain do they worship me, holding on to their traditions?" What do you think he meant by that?

I mean these are believers Jesus is talking about; believers who are actually worshipping him, and he is saying their belief and worship is " Useless."

I think you ought to look into that; or you can hold on to your tradition of celebrating them.