Was Adam's first sin that of not reproducing?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:49 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1449808 wrote: Only if you want to believe in miracles and magic.

Without those, you have nothing.

"but immortality is a curse"

Strange that you would think that God himself is cursed.

Perhaps that is why even though he could cure all those he has murdered, he chose the satanic way and killed them.

Regards

DL

Straight talking? I only understood one line out of that response, could you please lay out your argument in at least a semi-logical fashion?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:51 am

AnneBoleyn;1449729 wrote: For example: â€œIt is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace." (Proverbs 3:17-18) refers back to:

Proverbs 3:1, etc, all prior to 17: "My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee." ETC. (KJV)---don't feel like dusting off my copy of Pentateuch.

The Tree of Life is the LAW, not what you are suggesting, DL.

eta--It was the Law A&E broke, nothing more. As for their punishment, if Jesus paid for all sin, why do women still suffer in childbirth? Because it was an explanation, nothing more, of why women suffer in childbirth. Maybe it comes from passing a football through a hole 10 centimeters, how's that for the true answer???????

I do not recall opining on the tree of life but will here. Everywhere I see the term used, it just refers to a good life and has nothing to do with immortality. Nowhere have I seen it referred to as law although I can see where it could be interpreted that way.

The tree of knowledge is what give our moral values though, as scriptures clearly indicate, and laws would come from that knowledge. The tree of life or a good life would thus come from a study of the tree of knowledge which is where wisdom and law would come from.

You will note that nowhere in scriptures is the loss of our eternity is bemoaned. The ancients thus knew that mankind was not intended to live forever.

Only literalists believe in internal life of the body and to do so one would also have to believe in talking snakes. I do not think you did. Do you?

Regards

DL

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:02 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1449811 wrote: I do not recall opining on the tree of life but will here. Everywhere I see the term used, it just refers to a good life and has nothing to do with immortality. Nowhere have I seen it referred to as law although I can see where it could be interpreted that way.

The tree of knowledge is what give our moral values though, as scriptures clearly indicate, and laws would come from that knowledge. The tree of life or a good life would thus come from a study of the tree of knowledge which is where wisdom and law would come from.

You will note that nowhere in scriptures is the loss of our eternity is bemoaned. The ancients thus knew that mankind was not intended to live forever.

Only literalists believe in internal life of the body and to do so one would also have to believe in talking snakes. I do not think you did. Do you?

Regards

DL

On the contrary, you've opined three times in this thread that access to the tree of life would have stopped them dying, in posts #36, #38 and #40 - how is that "nothing to do with immortality"?

Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:42 pm

Oops.

I thought you wanted my view.

To a literalist, of course the tree of life would have kept A & E alive. God says so himself.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Why else would God lock it away? He wanted A & E to die. He is a jealous God and was a murderer and liar from the beginning.

Regards

DL

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:22 am

"He is a jealous God and was a murderer and liar from the beginning."

Then why bother talking about it? I don't get your intent. Free yourself, become an atheist instead.

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:49 am

AnneBoleyn;1449879 wrote: "He is a jealous God and was a murderer and liar from the beginning."

Then why bother talking about it? I don't get your intent. Free yourself, become an atheist instead.

Christians would like that then they could just blame my criticism to non-believers.

I do not want to make it easy on liars to lie.

Should the evils of the Christian God not be spoken of? Why not?

Why hide the truth?

Regards

DL

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:56 am

There is no Christian God.

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:15 pm

AnneBoleyn;1449892 wrote: There is no Christian God.

Exactly why I post.

Regards

DL

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:40 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1449897 wrote: Exactly why I post.

Regards

DL

Wow. That was unexpected! Maybe I wasn't paying full attention!

Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:55 pm

AnneBoleyn;1449901 wrote: Wow. That was unexpected! Maybe I wasn't paying full attention!

Can I discredit what I do not post on?

Rather hard to do.

Regards

DL

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:01 pm

:yh_youkid

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:05 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1449850 wrote: Oops.

I thought you wanted my view.

To a literalist, of course the tree of life would have kept A & E alive. God says so himself.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Why else would God lock it away? He wanted A & E to die. He is a jealous God and was a murderer and liar from the beginning.

Regards

DL

Of course I want your view - clearly and unambiguously stated. I'm still at a loss to know whether you believe that the tree of life had the ability to confer immortality or just "refers to a good life and has nothing to do with immortality".

If the latter then how did God murder Adam and Eve by keeping them from it?

jchristopher · Post by **jchristopher** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:15 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1449850 wrote: Oops.

I thought you wanted my view.

To a literalist, of course the tree of life would have kept A & E alive. God says so himself.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Why else would God lock it away? He wanted A & E to die. He is a jealous God and was a murderer and liar from the beginning.

Regards

DL

Of course God "locked" away the tree of life after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If he would have allowed them to partake of the tree of life, they would have lived forever in their transgressions with no time to repent. And they would have made God a liar, for he said that if they should partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would surely die. So yes, God appointed unto them to die, but not immediately. They were to be given a period of time between then and their physical death whereby they could repent and prepare to meet God. Through the resurrection of Christ they were to be made immortal at some point after their physical. This is true for everyone, whether good or evil. All shall be brought forth from the grave to stand before God and to be judged of their works done in the mortal body

Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:56 pm

jchristopher;1449917 wrote: Of course God "locked" away the tree of life after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If he would have allowed them to partake of the tree of life, they would have lived forever in their transgressions with no time to repent. And they would have made God a liar, for he said that if they should partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would surely die. So yes, God appointed unto them to die, but not immediately. They were to be given a period of time between then and their physical death whereby they could repent and prepare to meet God. Through the resurrection of Christ they were to be made immortal at some point after their physical. This is true for everyone, whether good or evil. All shall be brought forth from the grave to stand before God and to be judged of their works done in the mortal body

Transgression eh?

Becoming as God is a transgression to you is it?

Even though A & E could not know they were transgressing as transgression is evil and they had no notions of good or evil.

Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Indicates that they were following biblical law.

The rest of what you said is an addition to scriptures and they tell you not to do that.

So to you, just because A & E became as God, and God decided that that was wrong and then set forth to insure they died, is somehow justice and not murder. Right?

Nothing immoral on God's part eh?

Regards

DL

Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:03 pm

Bryn

I wrote the O P in literalist mode as they are my target for debate. I do not read scriptures literally.

From a literal view, God is seen as killing A & E through what I call neglect and Christians call justice. Death, to literalists, was deserved because they educated themselves.

No one seems to bemoan the loss of eternal life so I don't think anyone ever thought that the tree of life actually made one immortal.

Regards

DL

Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:03 pm

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:11 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1449932 wrote: Bryn

I wrote the O P in literalist mode as they are my target for debate. I do not read scriptures literally.

From a literal view, God is seen as killing A & E through what I call neglect and Christians call justice. Death, to literalists, was deserved because they educated themselves.

No one seems to bemoan the loss of eternal life so I don't think anyone ever thought that the tree of life actually made one immortal.

Regards

DL

I cannot argue your interpretation of someone else's view - what is your view?

Let us discuss the views we share in common and where they differ.

jchristopher · Post by **jchristopher** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:22 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1449931 wrote: Transgression eh?

Becoming as God is a transgression to you is it?

Even though A & E could not know they were transgressing as transgression is evil and they had no notions of good or evil.

Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Indicates that they were following biblical law.

The rest of what you said is an addition to scriptures and they tell you not to do that.

So to you, just because A & E became as God, and God decided that that was wrong and then set forth to insure they died, is somehow justice and not murder. Right?

Nothing immoral on God's part eh?

Regards

DL

I must ask, do you know the difference between a transgression and a sin?

Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:43 am

jchristopher;1449940 wrote: I must ask, do you know the difference between a transgression and a sin?

:-5:-5

In this case, they are the same.

If you are going to hide behind semantics then don't bother coming back.

Show what is wrong with a person educating themselves and becoming like Gods. God's own words.

Regards

DL

Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:49 am

Bryn

To me, it is all a myth and I read it the way Jews read it. A Myth of rite of passage from child to adult and man's elevation and not his fall as Christians see it.

I see a fair bit of wisdom with the Jewish take and no wisdom at all in the Christian take.

If it was a Gnostic myth then I would see a lot of wisdom as we, like the old Jews used to write myths backwards, so to speak, to excite discussions of God. There was not the hate of today between believers and seekers as the vast majority knew that all the Gods were myth. That is why they had so many of them.

Regards

DL

jchristopher · Post by **jchristopher** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:51 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1449941 wrote: In this case, they are the same.

If you are going to hide behind semantics then don't bother coming back.DL

This is not semantics, this is fundamental doctrine. And as you were saying, "transgression is evil and they had no notions of good or evil," I would say a transgression is not evil. A transgression is an infraction of law without having a complete knowledge or understanding of it (i.e. a small child jaywalking even after being told not walk in the street). Without a knowledge of good and evil, they could not sin, but it was crystal clear that God had commanded them not to partake, so it was a transgression.

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1449941 wrote: Show what is wrong with a person educating themselves and becoming like Gods. God's own words.

Nothing wrong with educating yourself. A & E's exile was not so much a punishment as it was a natural consequence to established law. And as the scripture goes, "cursed is the ground for thy sake," it was a blessing to them. It was done for their "sake." The "cursing" of the ground was the "fall" of the earth, for as they "fell" and became mortal, so was it requisite for them to live in a fallen world so they could learn the difference between good and evil, pain and pleasure, health and sickness. They had to be separated from God's presence. And since God had already prepared their redemption through the universal atonement of Christ (his atonement being retroactive to the time of A & E) and subsequently made these things known to Adam through revelation based on his faith and obedience in God's commands after that first transgression, A & E were then in a position to be tested or enticed by both good and evil and were therefore in a state to choose between the two. This was an important state for them to be in, which they could not obtain in the Garden (God's presence) because no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.

Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:22 pm

Death is not a punishment. Good grief. Do you even listen to yourself?

Avicii - Liar Liar (Audio) - YouTube

I guess that you missed where God said that they had become as God in knowing good and evil before he banished them.

You are reading what you want to hear in the script and are willing to distort and add to it to justify the unjustifiable of God murdering A & E.

You and your fellow Christians want to see a fall but the authors of that myth, the Jews, did not write a fall in Eden. They wrote an elevation of man and your lies do not change that fact.

Your God was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. Live with it.

Regards

DL

jchristopher · Post by **jchristopher** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:04 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450044 wrote: Death is not a punishment. Good grief. Do you even listen to yourself?

Okay, let's say it was a punishment. I suppose it could be termed as much. So what? What's wrong with that punishment?

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450044 wrote: I guess that you missed where God said that they had become as God in knowing good and evil before he banished them.

Not sure what you're saying here.

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450044 wrote: You are reading what you want to hear in the script and are willing to distort and add to it to justify the unjustifiable of God murdering A & E.

You've still failed to adequately explain how God murdered.

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450044 wrote: You and your fellow Christians want to see a fall but the authors of that myth, the Jews, did not write a fall in Eden. They wrote an elevation of man and your lies do not change that fact.

You still fail to understand how through death came immortality and eternal life. Good grief. It sounds like if you don't immediately understand what someone says, you dismiss it or call it a lie. Ask a question two if you don't get it.

You must have almost entirely ignored my last comment. It still sound like you have no idea how the â€œfallâ€ could have had any utility for A & E, which I explained. If you canâ€™t even base youâ€™re arguments on the assumption that the â€œGardenâ€ scene ever happened, even if just for this discussionâ€™s sake, then thereâ€™s no point in anyone continuing on this thread. Youâ€™re blind, not for not believing, but for not even acknowledging or seeking to understand any point of view but your own. Why do you participate in these forums again?

Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:01 am

jchristopher;1450049 wrote: Okay, let's say it was a punishment. I suppose it could be termed as much. So what? What's wrong with that punishment?

I don't like it.

If you continue with inane questions we will not go far.

Not sure what you're saying here.

You indicated that A & E had to leave Eden to learn good and evil while learning that to God's level is what got them thrown out. Again you wasted our time.

You've still failed to adequately explain how God murdered.

God deliberately kept A & E away from what they needed to live. The tree of life. That is like you locking your pantry and letting your children starve and die. Right?

You still fail to understand how through death came immortality and eternal life. Good grief. It sounds like if you don't immediately understand what someone says, you dismiss it or call it a lie. Ask a question two if you don't get it.

Death is a permanent state. Show how a dead person can return to life with an example. Not with miracles or an imaginary Jesus who is not here to confirm. You cannot so ignore this.

You must have almost entirely ignored my last comment. It still sound like you have no idea how the â€œfallâ€ could have had any utility for A & E, which I explained. If you canâ€™t even base youâ€™re arguments on the assumption that the â€œGardenâ€ scene ever happened, even if just for this discussionâ€™s sake, then thereâ€™s no point in anyone continuing on this thread. Youâ€™re blind, not for not believing, but for not even acknowledging or seeking to understand any point of view but your own. Why do you participate in these forums again?

Thanks for this last B S now shall we get on topic?

I had spoken to it in saying that A & E already had the knowledge that you say God cursed the ground for.

Regards

DL

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:36 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450044 wrote: Death is not a punishment. Good grief. Do you even listen to yourself?

Avicii - Liar Liar (Audio) - YouTube

I guess that you missed where God said that they had become as God in knowing good and evil before he banished them.

You are reading what you want to hear in the script and are willing to distort and add to it to justify the unjustifiable of God murdering A & E.

You and your fellow Christians want to see a fall but the authors of that myth, the Jews, did not write a fall in Eden. They wrote an elevation of man and your lies do not change that fact.

Your God was a liar and a murderer from the beginning. Live with it.

Regards

DL

OK, I'll bite - in what way did he murder them?

Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:04 pm

Bryn Mawr;1450066 wrote: OK, I'll bite - in what way did he murder them?

You know the answer to that question.

What would have kept them alive and why did they not eat of it?

Regards

DL

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:16 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450070 wrote: You know the answer to that question.

What would have kept them alive and why did they not eat of it?

Regards

DL

From your post #52 :-

I do not recall opining on the tree of life but will here. Everywhere I see the term used, it just refers to a good life and has nothing to do with immortality

According to your own words, nothing would have kept them alive - how did God murder them?

Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:24 pm

I already mentioned that I am not a literalist but wrote from literal mode to discuss this issue with those who do read that way.

If you want to discuss my real beliefs then I am happy to do so.

They match closer to the original Jewish view of Eden as man's elevation and not his fall. A tale of a rite of passage and not where man is cursed by God.

Regards

DL

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:46 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450077 wrote: I already mentioned that I am not a literalist but wrote from literal mode to discuss this issue with those who do read that way.

If you want to discuss my real beliefs then I am happy to do so.

They match closer to the original Jewish view of Eden as man's elevation and not his fall. A tale of a rite of passage and not where man is cursed by God.

Regards

DL

If you didn't mean the words then it's more baiting that debating - if it is not clear when you are writing your real beliefs and when you will deny the words when asked to hold to them then it's impossible to discuss anything with you.

jchristopher · Post by **jchristopher** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:48 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450054 wrote: I don't like it.

If you continue with inane questions we will not go far.

Nobody likes death, but some people understand that through death comes immortality and eternal life. How were A & E to have a family without first becoming mortal? And how were all the children of God suppose to obtain immortality and eternal life without being born and obtaining a body? My comments are all based on the assumption that God has a physical body of flesh and bone and that his purpose in creating the earth and sending us here is so that we could become more like him, both physically and spiritually.

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450054 wrote: You indicated that A & E had to leave Eden to learn good and evil while learning that to God's level is what got them thrown out. Again you wasted our time.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "while learning that to God's level is what got them thrown out."

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450054 wrote: God deliberately kept A & E away from what they needed to live. The tree of life. That is like you locking your pantry and letting your children starve and die. Right?

Not true. He kicked them out of the Garden so they would have to work for a living. It was more like a loving parent sending their kid off to college so they can start a career to support themselves and start a family. Your analogy of locking the pantry is ridiculous.

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450054 wrote: Death is a permanent state. Show how a dead person can return to life with an example. Not with miracles or an imaginary Jesus who is not here to confirm. You cannot so ignore this.

What kind of example would be sufficient for you? Without God, you're correct, death is a permanent state. Heck, without the existence of God, there would have been no life to die from in the first place. If you believe there is a God, surely you could believe he has power over death, no? Wouldn't his existence be just as miraculous as His having power over death? What makes Him God?

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450054 wrote: Thanks for this last B S now shall we get on topic?

I had spoken to it in saying that A & E already had the knowledge that you say God cursed the ground for.

Really? You think the narrative indicates they obtained all the knowledge they would ever need in the moment of their transgression? Is that what you think the fruit represented? Instant omniscience? I think not. They were to receive knowledge over time through personal experience. This meant they would have to work.

Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:56 pm

jchristopher;1450165 wrote: Nobody likes death, but some people understand that through death comes immortality and eternal life. How were A & E to have a family without first becoming mortal? And how were all the children of God suppose to obtain immortality and eternal life without being born and obtaining a body? My comments are all based on the assumption that God has a physical body of flesh and bone and that his purpose in creating the earth and sending us here is so that we could become more like him, both physically and spiritually.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "while learning that to God's level is what got them thrown out."

Not true. He kicked them out of the Garden so they would have to work for a living. It was more like a loving parent sending their kid off to college so they can start a career to support themselves and start a family.

.

Yes and when they could not support themselves and returned God had put a guard on what would have kept them alive with orders to keep them out.

If that is not murder to you then we are done as your discernment is not worthy of my time.

What God did was a perfect analogy of a J W withholding a blood transfusion an letting their child die. A crime in any court worthy of that title.

Regards

DL

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:40 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450186 wrote: Yes and when they could not support themselves and returned God had put a guard on what would have kept them alive with orders to keep them out.

If that is not murder to you then we are done as your discernment is not worthy of my time.

What God did was a perfect analogy of a J W withholding a blood transfusion an letting their child die. A crime in any court worthy of that title.

Regards

DL

Question - how long after the events you are describing was it before they died?

jchristopher · Post by **jchristopher** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:42 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450186 wrote: Yes and when they could not support themselves and returned God had put a guard on what would have kept them alive with orders to keep them out.

If that is not murder to you then we are done as your discernment is not worthy of my time.

What God did was a perfect analogy of a J W withholding a blood transfusion an letting their child die. A crime in any court worthy of that title.

Regards

DL

Have you gone mad? Where are you getting this hogwash? Where did you get the idea that they could not support themselves and that they came back to partake of the tree of life? Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of supporting themselves outside the garden. My discernment is not worth your time? You got some serious issues man. I think most would agree that my logic makes sense

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:52 am

Bryn

It is a myth and no true timeline can be known. Adam is said to have been over 900 years of age showing this to be a full blown myth.

The point is, compared to eternity, any age is a very young age to die.

Go murdered A & E, Any moral man will know that by the fact that they are not here. If we read literally that is.

Regards

DL

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:56 am

jchristopher;1450192 wrote: Have you gone mad? Where are you getting this hogwash? Where did you get the idea that they could not support themselves and that they came back to partake of the tree of life? Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of supporting themselves outside the garden. My discernment is not worth your time? You got some serious issues man. I think most would agree that my logic makes sense

Tell us the logic of God putting Satan right beside Eve while knowing that Eve could not resist the God power that God gave Satan? The power to deceive the whole world.

God admits that Eve was deceived so had to know he was trapping her.

Regards

DL

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:39 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450295 wrote: Tell us the logic of God putting Satan right beside Eve while knowing that Eve could not resist the God power that God gave Satan? The power to deceive the whole world.

God admits that Eve was deceived so had to know he was trapping her.

Regards

DL

I have a different idea. Parent birds push their babies out of the nest, otherwise they would stay in the nest & never fulfill their destiny of flying, of having a life of their own, a nest of their own, eggs to birth & raise on their own. A&E would have stayed in the nest (Garden) as eternal children, never experiencing what life has to offer, which includes suffering, death as well as great joy, as well as self accomplishment. So here we have God pushing these babies into adulthood. Probably they sat around smoking weed all day. The fruit of the tree was not forbidden, but in calling it so it was the only way they would eat it, by their childish curiosity--like reverse psychology.

jchristopher · Post by **jchristopher** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:01 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450294 wrote: Bryn

It is a myth and no true timeline can be known. Adam is said to have been over 900 years of age showing this to be a full blown myth.

The point is, compared to eternity, any age is a very young age to die.

Go murdered A & E, Any moral man will know that by the fact that they are not here. If we read literally that is.

Regards

DL

Are you saying it is impossible that Adam could have lived 900 years? How is it any different from it being possible for him to live 70, 90 or 120 years old? The gene pool was pretty pure back then, wasn't it?

Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:19 am

AnneBoleyn

A mother bird does not insure that the chicks will die by locking away what would keep them alive so your analogy is missing a large immoral component.

Birds are not as vile as the bible God.

Regards

DL

Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:22 am

jchristopher;1450320 wrote: Are you saying it is impossible that Adam could have lived 900 years? How is it any different from it being possible for him to live 70, 90 or 120 years old? The gene pool was pretty pure back then, wasn't it?

They are myths so gene pools do not apply.

Only fools will think that man ever lived for 900 years.

Do you believe hey did?

Then the talking snake must be real as well. Right?

Regards

DL

jchristopher · Post by **jchristopher** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:46 am

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450295 wrote: Tell us the logic of God putting Satan right beside Eve while knowing that Eve could not resist the God power that God gave Satan? The power to deceive the whole world.

God admits that Eve was deceived so had to know he was trapping her.

Regards

DL

Well, there is no logic in that, but your statement is only partially accurate. Where did you get the idea that Eve could not resist?

By now you should be familiar with a few of my basic beliefs, namely 1) that we lived with God as his spirit children before we were born on this earth, 2) that God has a glorified immortal body of flesh and bone- just like the resurrected Jesus as illustrated in Luke 24, 3) that it is his purpose to help us, his children, become like he is so we can experience the kind of love and joy he does, and 4) that he created a grand plan for us to accomplish this.

So, I have a couple questions for you. 1) How would you propose God should have made it possilbe for his spirit children (us) to obtain physical bodies seeing that we had none? We know that God cannot and will not force us do one thing or another (i.e. partake of the fruit), and that God is incapable of creating anything that is imperfect. 2) In what other way could it have been made possible for his children to leave his presence and experience all the trials and tribulations of mortality, which was necessary for them to gain added knowledge and experience? For if we were never made mortal, we would not be able to "become as the Gods, knowing good and evil."

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:19 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450322 wrote: AnneBoleyn

A mother bird does not insure that the chicks will die by locking away what would keep them alive so your analogy is missing a large immoral component.

Birds are not as vile as the bible God.

Regards

DL

Death is part of Real Life. Time to grow up, A&E. Maybe God was getting bored with them hanging around doing nothing. Maybe he wanted to watch them Fu*k. Whatever.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:21 pm

Besides, if one believes in God, one believes in eternal life. There is no death.

Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:30 pm

God got tired. How droll.

Regards

DL

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:31 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450345 wrote: oop

cryptic

Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:34 pm

AnneBoleyn;1450346 wrote: cryptic

You got ahead of me. The system only lets me see the replies I am trying to access when I start with a general reply. A pain but I cannot get around it. I still cannot see post 90.

Regards

DL

Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:49 pm

jchristopher

Re post 90.

"Well, there is no logic in that, but your statement is only partially accurate. Where did you get the idea that Eve could not resist?"

Scriptures say that Satan can deceive the whole world. Do you have something that show Eve is somehow immune?

If Eve was immune, why did God set her and Satan up together and why does God confirm that she was deceived?

---------------------------

"it is his purpose to help us, his children, become like he is so we can experience the kind of love and joy he does,"

His love always kills and never cures. You can have a love like that if you want but a moral man would want nothing to do with such a vile concept of love.

That love is more like hate and you know what your own bible says about you calling evil good.

----------------------------

" We know that God cannot and will not force us do one thing or another"

This is an outright lie. God forced many to die, starting with A & E.

----------------------------

"For if we were never made mortal, we would not be able to "become as the Gods, knowing good and evil."

So are you now saying that A & E did the right thing in eating of the tree of knowledge?

If so, Why did God throw his fit against the whole world and the people who were to follow?

BTW. Sorry I could not pick up your post to use for the quotes.

Regards

DL

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:46 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450345 wrote: God got tired. How droll.

Regards

DL

Not tired. Bored.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:03 pm

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1450294 wrote: Bryn

It is a myth and no true timeline can be known. Adam is said to have been over 900 years of age showing this to be a full blown myth.

The point is, compared to eternity, any age is a very young age to die.

Go murdered A & E, Any moral man will know that by the fact that they are not here. If we read literally that is.

Regards

DL

No, the point is that he, according to the Bible, lived for over nine hundred years after his eviction from the Garden of Eden so your ascribing his death to not being allowed back in is disingenuous at best.

They were perfectly capable of living outside of the Garden, they were just not immortal.

The question then is were they immortal whilst living inside of the Garden?

According to your previous post, God had always planned that Adam and Eve would be banished. In that case I would argue that they were never immortal. You have also said that the Tree of Life did not confer immortality, so even if God had allowed them back into the garden of Eden they would not have lived forever - so what is your argument? Where is your murder? It does not exist.

Approaching your post from a scientific viewpoint, I also have a problem. Science does not assume constant conditions for anything other than fundamental constants - the human lifespan is not a fundamental constant. Who knows if the lifespan of the newly created breed of Man could have dropped of exponentially - he was created of God and with each generation was moving away from God and becoming Man? How does the lifespan in the years after the creation dictate man's lifespan millennia later?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:45 am

Bryn Mawr;1450782 wrote: No, the point is that he, according to the Bible, lived for over nine hundred years after his eviction from the Garden of Eden so your ascribing his death to not being allowed back in is disingenuous at best.

But accurate nonetheless. Truth is never disingenuous.

They were perfectly capable of living outside of the Garden, they were just not immortal.

The question then is were they immortal whilst living inside of the Garden?

They are not shown to eat from the tree of life so the answer would be no. The fact that they are not alive today confirms that.

According to your previous post, God had always planned that Adam and Eve would be banished. In that case I would argue that they were never immortal.

Just agreed above.

You have also said that the Tree of Life did not confer immortality,

I never said this as it would go completely against the literal myth. I would nrrd to see the quote.

so even if God had allowed them back into the garden of Eden they would not have lived forever - so what is your argument? Where is your murder? It does not exist.

God did not allow them back in and there is the murder. It would be like you preventing your children from accessing the pantry and you letting your children starve for no reason.

Approaching your post from a scientific viewpoint, I also have a problem. Science does not assume constant conditions for anything other than fundamental constants - the human lifespan is not a fundamental constant. Who knows if the lifespan of the newly created breed of Man could have dropped of exponentially - he was created of God and with each generation was moving away from God and becoming Man? How does the lifespan in the years after the creation dictate man's lifespan millennia later?

It would be beyond stupid to try to apply science to a myth.

Let's scientifically study how the a goose lays golden eggs. Science can dither that out no problem. Right?

Regards

DL