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I'm In two minds over this...

There Is no denying a sense of entitlement with some but will this end the culture or put an enormous strain on parents?

Is It fair on those under 25's who look for work and simply can not find a job?

Cameron Is saying they either stay In education or get a job but If there's no jobs out there, Is this just targeting the softer option?

Is there a link for this topic? I'm not sure what cutting benefit means.

flopstock;1437100 wrote: Is there a link for this topic? I'm not sure what cutting benefit means.


BBC News - David Cameron suggests cutting benefits for under-25s

thanks!



I'll read it and probably still say something dumb...lol

"Today it is still possible to leave school, sign on, find a flat, start claiming housing benefit and opt for a life on benefits. It's time for bold action here."


I find that quote insulting to young people. He can't run the country enough to supply jobs and it's the kids fault?

I would like to say that I'm proud of my boys for never being on the dole when they left school ....but I think that would silly of me because in reality they were just lucky. Maybe I'm more proud of them for hanging onto their jobs while their hours are constantly cut back. My boys have relatives to live with and that's the only reason they survive whilst working.

ahhh this is what Roger was talking about?

During the week-long conference in Manchester, the Conservatives have announced plans to make the long-term unemployed undertake work placements if they want to continue receiving benefits.


That my friends is called "work for the dole" and I can assure you it won't work . It didn't last long here and it will fail in Britain as well.

fuzzywuzzy;1437111 wrote: I find that quote insulting to young people. He can't run the country enough to supply jobs and it's the kids fault?

.


"Today it is still possible to leave school, sign on, find a flat, start claiming housing benefit and opt for a life on benefits. It's time for bold action here."



But true.

Why Is that Insulting? It's fact.

fuzzywuzzy;1437112 wrote: ahhh this is what Roger was talking about?



Do you mean the link Roger put on Facebook just 3 hours ago ?

ummmm no ...Roger has been apart of political discussions for a long time . Probably three months ago or longer when this topic first came up .

oscar;1437133 wrote: "Today it is still possible to leave school, sign on, find a flat, start claiming housing benefit and opt for a life on benefits. It's time for bold action here."



But true.

Why Is that Insulting? It's fact.


It's a sweeping statement .... and it's true for how many? And why?

plus I've already answered this in another post.

fuzzywuzzy;1437136 wrote:

plus I've already answered this in another post. No you haven't. You've talked about your sons.

Are you aware of the Increases In youth unemployment In this country ? Are you aware of the Increases In employment of over 25's ? Are you aware of falling unemployment figures In this country?

How do you see the off set of higher unemployment rates of the under 25's with the Increase In employment over all ?

Young adult unemployment | Poverty Indicators | London's Poverty Report

Young adult unemployment is higher in London than in rest of England. Almost 25% (one in four) of economically active young adults in London are unemployed, compared to 20% (one in five) in the rest of the country. Overall unemployment is also higher in London than in rest of the country, but by two percentage points, whereas the difference in young adult unemployment is larger at five percentage points.

Young adult unemployment rate in Inner London is higher and has risen faster than the rate in Outer London, especially since 2008.

oscar;1437133 wrote: "Today it is still possible to leave school, sign on, find a flat, start claiming housing benefit and opt for a life on benefits. It's time for bold action here."



But true.

Why Is that Insulting? It's fact.


Is it true? Kids can't leave 'school' and go on the dole, they have to head to further education unless they have a job.

As a youth product of society.

The very same is happening here as well . Yes I am aware of the lies told by politicians and their statistians

Betty Boop;1437141 wrote: Is it true? Kids can't leave 'school' and go on the dole, they have to head to further education unless they have a job.


Yes, you're partially right.

16/17 year olds are not entitled to claim benefits as unemployed people as they are guaranteed a Jobskills place under the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL) Jobskills programme. There are however exceptions to this rule which depend on whether the claim is for Income Support; or Jobseeker's Allowance.

However, they can get benefit under Income Support.

are between age 16 and the age they can get Pension Credit

have a low income

work less than 16 hours a week, depending on the amount of your wage

aren't in full-time study (but there are some exceptions)

don't get Jobseeker's Allowance or Employment and Support Allowance

don't have savings above £16,000



Income Support | nidirect

I agree in a way but it must be done for ALL age groups.

OK, my situation was a bit different, and as I live in holland different rules apply, maybe not right on topic but don't think all under 25 year olds are the same (not that i'm saying anyone on FG has said that) so hey ho, here we go:

Our neighbour is a good 45 years old, never worked ( well once but she got caught stealing), she lives on benefits, she has a brand new car, a house, a home help, tons of clothes and make-up (the top of the top brands), and I can go on and on and on.

I bought a house in 2010 when I was 21 years old with my boyfriend who was 25 years old at that time. 2 months later his boss decided to not pay him, no one wanted (they could but didn't want to) help us.. not untill 8 MONTHS later! He got a little bit of umemployment money for just a few months.

When we called up to inquire what would happen because no one would give my boyfriend a job and his benefits were about to stop (although qualified but 16 year olds are cheaper), the lady on phone said: if you cant pay the bills, go live in a cardboard box for all I care.

The funny thing is, over here they are trying to get as many people as they can to buy a house instead of renting. which is what we did, and we got punished for it. With every damn thing, they turned round and said: Ah but you have equity!

Like I can buy a loaf of bread at the supermarket with that!

And no way you could sell the house, a) it would take years to sell it, and B) most likely at a loss, which would leave us with debt.

And lets face it, who ever thinks a serious home owner asking for help, could be a 21 year old girl. No one took us seriously.

It wasn't our fault that my OH lost his job, it wasn't his fault that employers chose cheap labour over his knowledge. Not everyone on benefits is on benefits by choice, and do do their best to get a job but simply cannot. Think about those situations.

It was my neighbours fault for stealing and being lazy and cheating our government out of money.. And she is the one being rewarded for it..

oscar;1437145 wrote: Yes, you're partially right.

16/17 year olds are not entitled to claim benefits as unemployed people as they are guaranteed a Jobskills place under the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL) Jobskills programme. There are however exceptions to this rule which depend on whether the claim is for Income Support; or Jobseeker's Allowance.

However, they can get benefit under Income Support.

are between age 16 and the age they can get Pension Credit

have a low income

work less than 16 hours a week, depending on the amount of your wage

aren't in full-time study (but there are some exceptions)

don't get Jobseeker's Allowance or Employment and Support Allowance

don't have savings above £16,000



Income Support | nidirect


My internet is utterly crap at the mo and driving me nuts, so I can't research this as much as I would like but I will say this, you've linked income support, surely it should be jobseekers allowance that would be the equivalent of the dole?

oscar;1437140 wrote: Young adult unemployment | Poverty Indicators | London's Poverty Report

Young adult unemployment is higher in London than in rest of England. Almost 25% (one in four) of economically active young adults in London are unemployed, compared to 20% (one in five) in the rest of the country. Overall unemployment is also higher in London than in rest of the country, but by two percentage points, whereas the difference in young adult unemployment is larger at five percentage points.

Young adult unemployment rate in Inner London is higher and has risen faster than the rate in Outer London, especially since 2008.


If you are unemployed in london it really is the case you are not trying. Reality is you cannot build an economy based on call centres and stacking shelves in a supermarket you need industry for all those highly skilled well paid jobs to generate wealth. No matter how much the tories carp on about it at the end of the day we are ****ed after thirty years of monetarist economics.

Betty Boop;1437239 wrote: My internet is utterly crap at the mo and driving me nuts, so I can't research this as much as I would like but I will say this, you've linked income support, surely it should be jobseekers allowance that would be the equivalent of the dole?


They can only get Jobseekers allowance at 18 years old.... but you're right, not before....If they have left school at 16 and not living at home, then they will get Income support.

Jobseeker's Allowance

gmc;1437272 wrote: If you are unemployed in london it really is the case you are not trying. Reality is you cannot build an economy based on call centres and stacking shelves in a supermarket you need industry for all those highly skilled well paid jobs to generate wealth. No matter how much the tories carp on about it at the end of the day we are ****ed after thirty years of monetarist economics.


and we are heading very quickly down the same toilet.

gmc;1437272 wrote: If you are unemployed in london it really is the case you are not trying. Reality is you cannot build an economy based on call centres and stacking shelves in a supermarket you need industry for all those highly skilled well paid jobs to generate wealth. No matter how much the tories carp on about it at the end of the day we are ****ed after thirty years of monetarist economics.


Yet London Has the highest rates of youth unemployment... If my memory serves me correct, 1 In 4 as opposed to 1 In 5 over the rest of the country.

oscar;1437303 wrote: Yet London Has the highest rates of youth unemployment... If my memory serves me correct, 1 In 4 as opposed to 1 In 5 over the rest of the country.


oscar;1437303 wrote: Yet London Has the highest rates of youth unemployment... If my memory serves me correct, 1 In 4 as opposed to 1 In 5 over the rest of the country.


Well you posted the link so maybe that short term memory loss isn't as bad as you think.:sneaky:

Joking aside I was in London at the latter end of the eighties when unemployment in parts of the country was in double figures even then there was no real unemployment in London. I was in retail we just could not get staff. By way of contrast when I went back to scotland and opening a new store the first day it was advertised there were just under a thousand applications.

If this is any indication of whats happening why would any government want to punish those out of work even further?

gmc;1437311 wrote: Well you posted the link so maybe that short term memory loss isn't as bad as you think.:sneaky:

Joking aside I was in London at the latter end of the eighties when unemployment in parts of the country was in double figures even then there was no real unemployment in London. I was in retail we just could not get staff. By way of contrast when I went back to scotland and opening a new store the first day it was advertised there were just under a thousand applications.


I would like to see a return of apprenticeships but then have we become a service Industry to the point we just don't have those positions In manufacturing any more?

I think the Issue with London Is that many still pay the basic wage but living costs and standard of living Is so high for any young person working In the City.

oh you would have loved the post I deleted because I thought it too controversial ...to our british sucking counterparts immigrating here for work taking our jobs. Thinking Australia is somehow their domian . I may have to go postal if I hear another accent!!! in industries sucking the life blood out of our job vacancies.

oscar;1437330 wrote: I would like to see a return of apprenticeships but then have we become a service Industry to the point we just don't have those positions In manufacturing any more?

I think the Issue with London Is that many still pay the basic wage but living costs and standard of living Is so high for any young person working In the City.


I"m so pleased you are suddenly aware of global bullshit that effects everyone ...it's not just london, how insular would you have to be to only count british statistics that are revved up and lied about by politicians?

fuzzywuzzy;1437317 wrote:

If this is any indication of whats happening why would any government want to punish those out of work even further?


That's actually a documentary about the irish republic not the UK.

Cameron is basically an old style tory - people are poor and unemployed because they are lazy and shiftless that he and his ilk do well is not as a result of privileged education and old boys network but natural talent and ability. Just to maintain their natural advantage they are wrecking the school system and preventing anyone getting further education unless they happen to have wealthy parents. Course I could just be cynical.

gmc;1437404 wrote: That's actually a documentary about the irish republic not the UK.




No wonder fuzzy is confused, oscar posted a link for income support from the Northern Ireland Direct.gov website!

oscar;1437286 wrote: They can only get Jobseekers allowance at 18 years old.... but you're right, not before....If they have left school at 16 and not living at home, then they will get Income support.

Jobseeker's Allowance


Not quite correct there oscar,



Most 16- and 17-year-olds cannot claim Income Support. If you are 16 or 17 years old, you may get Income Support if you:

have a child or are pregnant

are on certain kinds of training course.

Being entitled to Income Support will also depend on whether you are still at school or live with your parents. 16- or 17-year-olds who have been in care cannot usually get Income Support, but there are exceptions. Lone parents who have been in care can get the benefit.

Citizens Advice - Help for people on a low income - Income Support

Betty Boop;1437412 wrote: Not quite correct there oscar,



Most 16- and 17-year-olds cannot claim Income Support. If you are 16 or 17 years old, you may get Income Support if you:

have a child or are pregnant

are on certain kinds of training course.

Being entitled to Income Support will also depend on whether you are still at school or live with your parents. 16- or 17-year-olds who have been in care cannot usually get Income Support, but there are exceptions. Lone parents who have been in care can get the benefit.

Citizens Advice - Help for people on a low income - Income Support


That'll teach me to rush and speed read... sorry about that.

However, Cameron Is right In that It Is possible to leave school, get benefits and a council flat without ever working.

The problem with the proposals Is that If school leavers can not get any Jobseekers until they are 18, then cutting this for under 25 year olds Is going to leave young people with 6 years unable to claim Jobseekers and possibly no means of getting Income Support which could put massive strain on parents.

Also, stopping them getting housing benefit until they are 25 Is proposed.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 53560.html

gmc;1437404 wrote: That's actually a documentary about the irish republic not the UK.

Cameron is basically an old style tory - people are poor and unemployed because they are lazy and shiftless that he and his ilk do well is not as a result of privileged education and old boys network but natural talent and ability. Just to maintain their natural advantage they are wrecking the school system and preventing anyone getting further education unless they happen to have wealthy parents. Course I could just be cynical.


That particular piece is about Ireland but she went all over Europe as well to see how the crash effected everyone. I just plonked that one as a sample

On the bright side this kind of thing helps politicise people young people are getting an object lesson in why politics matter. Being told you are feckless and a waste of space might stop under 25's voting tory.

posted by fuzzywuzzy

That particular piece is about Ireland but she went all over Europe as well to see how the crash effected everyone. I just plonked that one as a sample


Our mortgage set up is atypical not least because many of the types of purchase have their roots in feudal times - freehold/leasehold etc in scotland there used to be only feudal tenure now it's called simple to keep up with the times. Theoretically I own my property courtesy of the monarchy. Ireland also has it's peculiarities.

BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Age-old Scots property rights end

largely irrelevant I know but I find such things interesting, maybe you do too.

One thing we all have in common is the bastards responsible got away with it.

gmc;1437473 wrote:

One thing we all have in common is the bastards responsible got away with it. Yet we are going backwards. The announcement today of 95 % mortgages.

oscar;1437480 wrote: Yet we are going backwards. The announcement today of 95 % mortgages.


There was nothing wrong with them or indeed with 100% mortgages what duid the damage was 125% Loan to value brought in by gordon brown - to help people get on the property ladder. Moron, if house prices are too high you let the market sort itself you don't make inflated prices more affordable. Northern rock had about 75% of it's mortgage lending to such properties. That's why they got in to such trouble. The regulators did nothing to control the banks, now the poor dears are bleating about being made poorer by having to pay compensation to people they sold ppi to. Not to worry the supermarkets are stepping in now. Course let's not blame thatcher for doing away with the old mutual building societies and handing them over to rapacious moneygrabbers instead.

gmc;1437591 wrote: There was nothing wrong with them or indeed with 100% mortgages what duid the damage was 125% Loan to value brought in by gordon brown - to help people get on the property ladder. Moron, if house prices are too high you let the market sort itself you don't make inflated prices more affordable. Northern rock had about 75% of it's mortgage lending to such properties. That's why they got in to such trouble. The regulators did nothing to control the banks, now the poor dears are bleating about being made poorer by having to pay compensation to people they sold ppi to. Not to worry the supermarkets are stepping in now. Course let's not blame thatcher for doing away with the old mutual building societies and handing them over to rapacious moneygrabbers instead.


So you can't see the plan?

Bring back 5 percent deposits so the under 25's can afford to buy and then errrrr scrap benefit for under 25's.

oscar;1437594 wrote: So you can't see the plan?

Bring back 5 percent deposits so the under 25's can afford to buy and then errrrr scrap benefit for under 25's.


Care to make that 'plan' a bit clearer?

Betty Boop;1437598 wrote: Care to make that 'plan' a bit clearer?


I doubt you'd get any member of the Tory party to admit that It's ' a plan' but these politicians rarely do something for no underhand reason.

Cameron wants to end benefit for under 25's and Housing benefit for under 25's. What he can't have Is an Increase In homeless under 25's so lowering the deposit rate to 5 percent gives him the opportunity to say to the young ' get a job and buy then'. It also kick starts the housing market again and gets the banks lending while saving millions In benefit... job done... sorted.

oscar;1437616 wrote: I doubt you'd get any member of the Tory party to admit that It's ' a plan' but these politicians rarely do something for no underhand reason.

Cameron wants to end benefit for under 25's and Housing benefit for under 25's. What he can't have Is an Increase In homeless under 25's so lowering the deposit rate to 5 percent gives him the opportunity to say to the young ' get a job and buy then'. It also kick starts the housing market again and gets the banks lending while saving millions In benefit... job done... sorted.


Too bad there aren't actually many jobs paying decent salaries to be had. You can't build an economy based in financial services (servicing what?) call centres and stacking shelves in supermarkets. There are an awful lot of people working long hours on low incomes on income support and the like out of necessity. There are many young couple whose joint earnings are less than the national average saving up £5,00+ for the typical deposit is difficult when most of your income goes on rent and other living expenses - the irony is that a mortgage would be cheaper than renting.

gmc;1437635 wrote: Too bad there aren't actually many jobs paying decent salaries to be had. You can't build an economy based in financial services (servicing what?) call centres and stacking shelves in supermarkets. There are an awful lot of people working long hours on low incomes on income support and the like out of necessity. There are many young couple whose joint earnings are less than the national average saving up £5,00+ for the typical deposit is difficult when most of your income goes on rent and other living expenses - the irony is that a mortgage would be cheaper than renting.


Buying within your limits Is cheaper than renting but my concern If these proposals go through, Is that young people will be forced Into buying and Into debt.

If we see a downturn and negative equity as we did In the 80's, then young people will be repossessed or face a life of debt.

The only answer to me, Is build more affordable social housing and move the oldies out Into smaller properties to free up family homes as the Bedroom Tax was meant to do.

oscar;1437638 wrote:

If we see a downturn and negative equity as we did In the 80's, then young people will be repossessed or face a life of debt.




You load sixteen tons, what do you get

Another day older and deeper in debt

Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go

I owe my soul to the company store

Tennessee Ernie Ford - Sixteen Tons Lyrics

That's been the plan all along.