AnneBoleyn;1457780 wrote: I feel that way about abortion & a female's right to ownership of her person. Abortion--no apologies/no excuses. That was our motto for it in the very beginning of the women's movement. I still have trouble in ignoring the ignorant. I must put that on my "To Do" list.
Yes, and it's worth noting that there are a few educated people who make moral arguments that fetuses are persons, but still do not agree with outlawing abortion because either they:
1. believe that the pregnant woman's rights supercede the rights of a person who depends on her for survival, or
2. they've actually read a little history during their lifetime and read about the social consequences of illegal abortion: blackmarket abortions that endanger pregnant women, abused children abandoned or given up for adoption because they were unwanted.
The problem with the zealots is that they do not follow consequentialism, and accept that a "solution" that leads to worse overall results is no solution! They will come flat out and tell you that they don't care if a few pregnant teenagers die from botched abortions or end up with unwanted children....it's all a matter of following The Rules. That's the consequences of Divine Command moral systems. The Law or the Rule must be followed at all costs.
The one issue that I really have a problem with, when it comes to fundamentalist believers of all stripes, is that they have overwhelmingly drifted into the denying camp on the most dangerous threat to human survival today: global warming.
I don't know if it's the payoffs to religious leaders by the oil industry interests, or the crazy idea that it can't happen because God won't allow it to happen, or the suicidal - it's all part of God's plans, since we are living in the end times already!
Whatever it is, when someone's faith leads to irrational and destructive actions that impact on public issues, that's where the dark side of religious faith hits everyone - believer or unbeliever.
There Is No God.
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recovering conservative
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I have to agree with you 100% - although I hope you also agree that abortion should not be viewed as a method of Birth Control.
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recovering conservative
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There Is No God.
FourPart;1457897 wrote: I have to agree with you 100% - although I hope you also agree that abortion should not be viewed as a method of Birth Control.
This is the sort of issue where a discussion forum needs a good demographic balance to provide any real insight on the issue. Because, from previous experience on political discussion forums, they tend to be overwhelmingly white and male...and if they are based out of the U.S., they are overwhelmingly the ideas and opinions of American white men! And what does a man...any man...know about what it's like to be pregnant, give birth, or have to weigh a decision on whether to have the baby or abort because of a number of issues that will make pregnancy, motherhood or both almost unbearable options? I have always tended to view abortion and birth control as women's issues, even in my more conservative days. Maybe it was the shift around the year 2000, when conservatives stopped coming up with new economic ideas and instead shifted to God-talk and social issues almost exclusively...that's when I realized that conservatism wasn't for me.
Anyway, I believe we need more active participation from women on EVERY ongoing issue these days, but especially when it comes to issues that are exclusively within the domain of women, that's the opinions I want to hear from first. I was on past political discussion forums where I learned a little more about the abortion issues...I was born during the time prior to abortion being legal and accessible, and there were a lot more women discussing a multitude of horror stories from the times prior to the 70's, before early stage clinical abortions became an option. The problem today is that there is collective ADHD among people who forget history, if there isn't a media providing continual reminders of what it was like in the past. So, many younger women from religious backgrounds who buy in to pro life ideology, have no idea what they could be bringing on themselves or their daughters!
But, on the issue of whether women are using abortion as a form of birth control, my 2nd hand and anecdotal experience tells me that few women and girls would blithely ignore birth control and go for the abortion option. American reports on that issue tend to reveal that the girls and young women who are most likely to be seeking abortions, are those who come from "abstinence only" indoctrination, where both teenage boys and girls are told to act like eunuchs until the wedding reception is done and they are back in their hotel suite, where they can have sex that their church (and God presumably) approves of! No surprise that this sort of thinking backfires in all sorts of bad directions, but one that stands out is all of the unprotected sex going on among fundamentalist teens sneaking off to have sex without any condoms....and just hoping they are lucky!
So, among normal, sane people who don't foist unrealistic and unachievable expectations on their teenage children, would they be likely to use abortion as a form of birth control? Or, is it the last, desperate step of the ones who have put up a front of purity and virginity?
This is the sort of issue where a discussion forum needs a good demographic balance to provide any real insight on the issue. Because, from previous experience on political discussion forums, they tend to be overwhelmingly white and male...and if they are based out of the U.S., they are overwhelmingly the ideas and opinions of American white men! And what does a man...any man...know about what it's like to be pregnant, give birth, or have to weigh a decision on whether to have the baby or abort because of a number of issues that will make pregnancy, motherhood or both almost unbearable options? I have always tended to view abortion and birth control as women's issues, even in my more conservative days. Maybe it was the shift around the year 2000, when conservatives stopped coming up with new economic ideas and instead shifted to God-talk and social issues almost exclusively...that's when I realized that conservatism wasn't for me.
Anyway, I believe we need more active participation from women on EVERY ongoing issue these days, but especially when it comes to issues that are exclusively within the domain of women, that's the opinions I want to hear from first. I was on past political discussion forums where I learned a little more about the abortion issues...I was born during the time prior to abortion being legal and accessible, and there were a lot more women discussing a multitude of horror stories from the times prior to the 70's, before early stage clinical abortions became an option. The problem today is that there is collective ADHD among people who forget history, if there isn't a media providing continual reminders of what it was like in the past. So, many younger women from religious backgrounds who buy in to pro life ideology, have no idea what they could be bringing on themselves or their daughters!
But, on the issue of whether women are using abortion as a form of birth control, my 2nd hand and anecdotal experience tells me that few women and girls would blithely ignore birth control and go for the abortion option. American reports on that issue tend to reveal that the girls and young women who are most likely to be seeking abortions, are those who come from "abstinence only" indoctrination, where both teenage boys and girls are told to act like eunuchs until the wedding reception is done and they are back in their hotel suite, where they can have sex that their church (and God presumably) approves of! No surprise that this sort of thinking backfires in all sorts of bad directions, but one that stands out is all of the unprotected sex going on among fundamentalist teens sneaking off to have sex without any condoms....and just hoping they are lucky!
So, among normal, sane people who don't foist unrealistic and unachievable expectations on their teenage children, would they be likely to use abortion as a form of birth control? Or, is it the last, desperate step of the ones who have put up a front of purity and virginity?
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AnneBoleyn
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FourPart;1457897 wrote: I have to agree with you 100% - although I hope you also agree that abortion should not be viewed as a method of Birth Control.
Or sex selection? FourPart, it might not be my choice, but I can't & won't stop someone whose choice it is. And how would the Abortion Police prove that these are the reasons for the abortion? If a woman controls her person, her choices, the buck stops with her and she has to live with her decisions, whether she is glad or whether she suffers. People must learn to place attention on themselves & when it comes to another woman's choice to MYOB.
Or sex selection? FourPart, it might not be my choice, but I can't & won't stop someone whose choice it is. And how would the Abortion Police prove that these are the reasons for the abortion? If a woman controls her person, her choices, the buck stops with her and she has to live with her decisions, whether she is glad or whether she suffers. People must learn to place attention on themselves & when it comes to another woman's choice to MYOB.