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Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

I get confused with the way so called democracy works.

In the UK we are always complaining about the EU making our laws, taking away our rights and steamrolling through things we don't like.

What has happened to us in the UK is that we have joined a group that will eventually become the Federal States of Europe. So we are all having a say about what happens in our seperate countries, and there is more of them, so we feel left behind a lot of the time.

This I think, parrallells the American situation where State Law is over ridden by Federal Law................I might be wrong.



My comment that Accountable considered Troll-like should be put into context, so I shall try (My heads hurting already)

The Tea Party movement which I know next to nothing about remember, seems to be like some of our popular but marginal groups, halfway wonders why they don't get much coverage in the national press, as if they are being ignored.

My thought process now jumps about and wonders how the American government could put a total ban on alcohol, as in during prohibition. And still commits it's troops to overseas conflicts opposed by the majority of its citizens, like the UK. Add to this the voting irregularities that have occurred over the years, what with hanging chads and such.

Are you keeping up with this ?

So the Freedoms that Americans hold dear are all focussed into the right to own firearms, so you can oppose tyranny apparently.

Meanwhile your big businesses and super rich are running everything for their own benefit, allowing you to own guns makes you think you are in control.

The people in Europe and America that really wield the power are the multinationals, not the people at the polling booths.

I am not a conspiracy theorist or a new world order believer.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Bruv;1417996 wrote: I get confused with the way so called democracy works.

In the UK we are always complaining about the EU making our laws, taking away our rights and steamrolling through things we don't like.

What has happened to us in the UK is that we have joined a group that will eventually become the Federal States of Europe. So we are all having a say about what happens in our seperate countries, and there is more of them, so we feel left behind a lot of the time.

This I think, parrallells the American situation where State Law is over ridden by Federal Law................I might be wrong.That's very much the way I see it. I said as much to gmc years ago, and he poo-pooed it, citing how impossible that would be, giving the differing language, cutures, histories, etc etc etc. I see it more as a danger of centralizing power and control.

Bruv;1417996 wrote:

My comment that Accountable considered Troll-like should be put into context, so I shall try (My heads hurting already)

The Tea Party movement which I know next to nothing about remember, seems to be like some of our popular but marginal groups, halfway wonders why they don't get much coverage in the national press, as if they are being ignored.

My thought process now jumps about and wonders how the American government could put a total ban on alcohol, as in during prohibition. And still commits it's troops to overseas conflicts opposed by the majority of its citizens, like the UK. Add to this the voting irregularities that have occurred over the years, what with hanging chads and such.

Are you keeping up with this ?

So the Freedoms that Americans hold dear are all focussed into the right to own firearms, so you can oppose tyranny apparently.

Meanwhile your big businesses and super rich are running everything for their own benefit, allowing you to own guns makes you think you are in control.

The people in Europe and America that really wield the power are the multinationals, not the people at the polling booths.

I am not a conspiracy theorist or a new world order believer.
To be fair, it was a snarky remark about guns tossed into an abortion thread. No matter, though.

Here's the only time I've found myself agreeing with Bill Maher:





Of course you're right about the multinationals, but our right to bear arms is important as well. It's generally used as a distraction, but without arms, it will be more difficult to overthrow the gov't when enough people finally wise up to what's happening.
Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

Accountable;1418000 wrote: That's very much the way I see it. I said as much to gmc years ago, and he poo-pooed it, citing how impossible that would be, giving the differing language, cutures, histories, etc etc etc. I see it more as a danger of centralizing power and control.



To be fair, it was a snarky remark about guns tossed into an abortion thread. No matter, though.





Of course you're right about the multinationals, but our right to bear arms is important as well. It's generally used as a distraction, but without arms, it will be more difficult to overthrow the gov't when enough people finally wise up to what's happening.


I don't know who Bill Maher is, but he is far more snarky then me, he virtually said what I was going on about.

You have guns to protect your freedoms, but they have been stealing your freedoms from under your noses while you were arguing the toss about guns.

In a country with a sophisticated democracy such as the US, you overthrow governments at the polling booth. All the freedom fighters ought to be worrying about the hanging chads, and other voting irregularities, they have been stealing you blind through the back door while the gun argument was causing a distraction.

What use would guns be against the most heavily armed government on earth anyway ?
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gmc
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Post by gmc »

posted by accountable

That's very much the way I see it. I said as much to gmc years ago, and he poo-pooed it, citing how impossible that would be, giving the differing language, cutures, histories, etc etc etc. I see it more as a danger of centralizing power and control.


I still would actually. There are massive protest movements all over europe that get little publicity, yes we do have fairly powerful interests that are pushing for closer ties and a european state but just because there is doesn't mean they will succeed in creating a monolithic state. There are good arguments for creating closer ties and one of the problems is that there is no way of controlling the commissioners unless the eu parliament is strengthened and there is a real problem with the power corporations and bankers have but the way to deal with them is more powerful institutions like the EU. Starbucks and amazon are beyond the ability of national governments to curb.

The last time we had a referendum on staying in the eu those against it lost - much to their surprise. Once people get ton hear the arguments I suspect the result might be the same, the main one is we will still have to abide by all the decisions but will have no say in what they are. In the meantime anyone considering investing in the UK with a view to Europe is going to think twice and go elsewhere. In the eu and part of one of the biggest economic blocs on the planet or a small island on the arse end of europe with the tories doing away with all the health and safety legislation, minimum wage, working hours directive etc etc. Some of the rules have been daft - in large part because we implement it regardless and don't apply common sense.

posted by bruv

In the UK we are always complaining about the EU making our laws, taking away our rights and steamrolling through things we don't like.


That's one of the main reasons the SNP have been doing so well. Overwhelmingly we reject the tories yet we are stuck with their policies whether we like them or not. The unionists have just lost one of the main planks of their argument in favour of the union what difference it will make I really don't know. It's not just us, the spanish are wetting themselves in case catalan decides they want independence. It's Ironic smaller nations see the best chance for the future as being in the EU but separated from the countries of which they have been a part countries like latvia, slovenia. poland all see greater surety of freedom within the eu they don't seem worried they will disappear in top a greater european state run by germany and they have more reason than most to worry about that.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Bruv;1418003 wrote: I don't know who Bill Maher is, but he is far more snarky then me, he virtually said what I was going on about.He's honed his snark into a multi-million dollar empire. I can't stand to listen to 'im. Someone in another forum posted that vid.

Bruv;1418003 wrote: You have guns to protect your freedoms, but they have been stealing your freedoms from under your noses while you were arguing the toss about guns.

In a country with a sophisticated democracy such as the US, you overthrow governments at the polling booth. All the freedom fighters ought to be worrying about the hanging chads, and other voting irregularities, they have been stealing you blind through the back door while the gun argument was causing a distraction.

What use would guns be against the most heavily armed government on earth anyway ?It costs nothing to talk about gun rights. You make it sound like an either/or choice, as if we chose to keep our guns at the cost of the rest and could have given up guns to keep the rest. That's a false choice.

I'm stunned when I think about how easily Washington took over the airline industry, and how complacent we've been as a country as our liberty is stolen right out from under us. But I'm one guy. I do what I can.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

gmc;1418007 wrote: yes we do have fairly powerful interests that are pushing for closer ties and a european state but just because there is doesn't mean they will succeed in creating a monolithic state.


As Saint kind of points out in the Too Rich thread, it doesn't have to be official to be practical fact. Meaning that no one has to declare legally and in writing that the EU is a single sovereign nation for it to become so. Be vigilant.
Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

Accountable;1418015 wrote:

It costs nothing to talk about gun rights. You make it sound like an either/or choice, as if we chose to keep our guns at the cost of the rest and could have given up guns to keep the rest. That's a false choice.

I'm stunned when I think about how easily Washington took over the airline industry, and how complacent we've been as a country as our liberty is stolen right out from under us. But I'm one guy. I do what I can.


The point that I am trying to make is that given the will, the depth of public feeling over the gun issue, the Government is wary how they go.

If the same passion was to be exhibited for the other 'freedoms' maybe they might be wary of tampering with them.

And there is my cynical side that tells me the Big Guys are earning lots of dollars feeding that particular need, so like the military 'earner', it is allowed.

Obviously freedom is big business, thats me being snarky again.(Maher would be proud)
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gmc
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Post by gmc »

Accountable;1418020 wrote: As Saint kind of points out in the Too Rich thread, it doesn't have to be official to be practical fact. Meaning that no one has to declare legally and in writing that the EU is a single sovereign nation for it to become so. Be vigilant.


What we do have is a de facto corporatist state but in europe the left and socialist sentiment is quite strong so there is a challenge to it. there's always been a conflict between left and right and probably always will be.

The US has a bigger problem made worse imo when your supreme court ruled that corporations could contribute to political parties basically your political process is up for sale to the highest bidder with ordinary people detached from it except as flag waving crowds at the conventions. - although I think you will sort it in time. How easy would it be for a third party to make headway?

Not that we are much better really our banks have too much power and foreign donors and large single contributors should be banned - financial services the key word being services we de-regulated them buying in to the insane notion of capitalism as a free for all dog eat dog economic philosophy. That just doesn't work in the long run. If someone wants to remove the restraints from industry it does beg the question why are they there in the first place.

In that regard being in the EU has done a better job of protecting the environment and controlling corporations than we could or would on our own, rules on air pollution etc have made a big difference and it is the type of legislation we might not have seen at all in the UK. I suppose I see the EU as a useful check on a rampant uk government run by the tories. (or labour come to that). If you look at the economic blocs being formed in south america in part it is to defend themselves from being dominated by big interest interests that want to strip their countries of assets without regard to the effect on the locals.

posted by bruv

I get confused with the way so called democracy works.

In the UK we are always complaining about the EU making our laws, taking away our rights and steamrolling through things we don't like.




Democracy works but it's not a panacea you have to keep working on it. Ours is a hodgepodge grown organically and built from below none of the rights we take for granted were given we took them and shaped them over time the process goes on.

Quite frankly when anyone who says it doesn't it doesn't work you need to look at what they think is a better alternative. Almost invariably it is a system where they have free reign. If they want power back to parliament how about making a parliament that reflects the opinions of the people. Both labour and tory fear proportional representation the major failure of the lib dems was to fail to make a difference to the way we vote that was the only reason I ever voted for them and they blew their chance. It's a safe bet that labour wish they hadn't brought in PR in scotland.

I can put a case both for and against membership of the EU on balance I am in favour of it. When you look at the businesses that support the like of ukip and where they do business it tells a story. I remember the impact the eu regional fund had on scotland and the northeast, yes we helped pay for it but that money would never have been spent by a Westminster government that thinks the sun shines out the city of London's arse. Even now after all that has happened we keep hearing how much more important an industry (if you can describe financial services as such since they produce nothing) worth less than 10% of our GDP is more important than the rest of the economy.

Our problems aren't caused by the eu but it might be part of the solution.
Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

Kind of on topic, something that happened to me on the net yesterday.........it's Google again.

I was viewing a right wing forum and followed a link to You Tube, the video was considered to need verification of my age so I had to sign in. I have never given any proper verification of my age, just told them by ticking a box or something that I am adult, anybody might have ticked the same box.

I got my password wrong, so had to supply an email address which linked back allowing me to change my password.

All pretty standard stuff so far, but then they asked a question that really annoyed me.

Paraphrased they asked "If I wanted to change my name to the one I used for other accounts"

So they linked me from You Tube to Google and I had to persist by ticking several boxes to keep my identities different.

I know Google gives personalised searches depending on previous searches, they say to serve me better, I say a form of censorship.

Now both You Tube and Google know I visit Stormfront.......wonder how that is affecting my searches.

Should this be a concern or am I paranoiac ?
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LarsMac
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Post by LarsMac »

I always wonder, when people go on about the rights they have lost.

I have been doing pretty much as I pleased for the last 60+ years, and plan to continue until I am tossed into the pyre.

I really don't know what rights the gummint has supposedly taken from my.

It occurs that we cannot have our rights taken from us. We must give them up, willingly.
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv how often do you visit Stormfront & why? This better be good.
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Snowfire
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Post by Snowfire »

AnneBoleyn;1418056 wrote: Bruv how often do you visit Stormfront & why? This better be good.


I've been there a few times myself. It's a deeply unpleasant place and I couldn't stay there for very long. It's a disturbing place full of the disturbed

I can't/wont speak for Bruv but I'm confident that he isn't one of the disturbed
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Accountable;1418020 wrote: As Saint kind of points out in the Too Rich thread, it doesn't have to be official to be practical fact. Meaning that no one has to declare legally and in writing that the EU is a single sovereign nation for it to become so. Be vigilant.


Don't worry, it will come to be - not only due to economic necessity but by public demand. Whether the UK will be part of it or not I don't know but I cannot see anything stopping the formation of the United States of Europe.
Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1418056 wrote: Bruv how often do you visit Stormfront & why? This better be good.


I joined a few years ago, they send me birthday greetings on All Fools day April the first, tickles my sense of humour.

I only recently began to visit again, I have never contributed, am often tempted but wouldn't want to pee in the wind, if you know what I mean.

It is educational ......honestly.

I shall give you a small taster of a 12 year old Oklahoma girl that shot an intruder and the comments that followed.

"Wonder what shade the scumbag was?"

"Thats what I call justice, no judge no jury"

A picture shows the guy was a rather obese white male.

"Looks like we have some slime in our gene pool too"

These are from memory but you get the drift.

Even the nastiest people on here cannot compare to the nicest on there.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

LarsMac;1418051 wrote: I always wonder, when people go on about the rights they have lost.

I have been doing pretty much as I pleased for the last 60+ years, and plan to continue until I am tossed into the pyre.

I really don't know what rights the gummint has supposedly taken from my.

It occurs that we cannot have our rights taken from us. We must give them up, willingly.
Or complacently.

I'd say that one is the federal takeover of airport security, which includes being subjected to a full body search which is ipso facto a presumption of guilt until proven innocent. That violates the Fourth Amendment, and the presumption of innocence, which is also based on constitutional principles.

The Second Amendment has been violated time and again, eroded in the name of safety, security, the children ... anything that fit the moment. The Amendment is written in emphatic terms, and those terms, whether you agree with them or not, are emphatic.

You can google to find lists of violations. These two are off the top of my head.
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