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Since buzz brought it up.

I responded that it is a state of mind. I think that the only place we can know true freedom is in our minds...but that is not so easily attained either.

In Ireland, Freedom is worth killing for, or to die for.http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com



Read the Path to Freedom

freedom is being allowed to do what we want to so long as it does not harm others and we fulfill our societal obligations to others.

In short freedom is really hard to measure.

but what IS it, buzz?

There are many who do not feel they can say what they want or do what they want, yet their society does not repress them. So are they free?

koan wrote: but what IS it, buzz?posted above

yes and no,

I was thinking of freedom from a government perspective. but I am inclined to think that people who are members of repressive cultures really arent free. think burqas and female circumcision.

the weird thing is that it can be necessary to restrict freedom to promote it. thin the ban of religious attire in french state schools. or the ban on religious declarations in us schools by faculty, in order to maintain separation of church and state.

my yes and no are in response to koan, not capitan.

beyelzu wrote: yes and no,



I was thinking of freedom from a government perspective. but I am inclined to think that people who are members of repressive cultures really arent free. think burqas and female circumcision.



the weird thing is that it can be necessary to restrict freedom to promote it. thin the ban of religious attire in french state schools. or the ban on religious declarations in us schools by faculty, in order to maintain separation of church and state.They only banned Islamic attire

so it's worth fighting for something that can't be defined?

exercising their simple right to live and to govern themselves as they pleased


this was the first description I could find in your link, buzz. still there are people in countries that are governed as they like that do not feel the freedom to say or do what they want. It's a nice start though. Despite the immediate reference you have to the battle of your country, there is the bigger, philosophical question.

This amendment prohibits conspicuous religious symbols and clothing being worn by students in public primary and secondary schools. The amendment further supports the French constitutional provision of freedom of opinion, including religious opinion.


from http://www.answers.com/topic/french-law ... in-schools

the actual law* wrote: "In public elementary schools, junior high schools and high schools, students are prohibited from wearing symbols or attire through which they conspicuously exhibit a religious affiliation.

Note that the internal regulations [of the schools] require disciplinary procedures to be preceded by a dialogue with the student."


from the same link

*excpet I do imagine that the actual law is in french

I'm not one of those whiners that lives in a "free country" and wants pity for the mental distress I still go through. I feel free. I generally say what I want and generally do what I want. But I can't figure out why so many others don't. I know a lot of people in bad situations that are unable to help themselves because their minds are not free.

The government aspect of freedom has it's own ground in the politics forums...but the mind plays a large part in repression as well. The desire to dictate, IMO, stems from powerlessness and a need to control. So the minds and lives of many others are repressed by the lack of freedom in another's mind. Why would a free mind feel the need to have power over someone else?

koan wrote: I'm not one of those whiners that lives in a "free country" and wants pity for the mental distress I still go through. I feel free. I generally say what I want and generally do what I want. But I can't figure out why so many others don't. I know a lot of people in bad situations that are unable to help themselves because their minds are not free.



The government aspect of freedom has it's own ground in the politics forums...but the mind plays a large part in repression as well. The desire to dictate, IMO, stems from powerlessness and a need to control. So the minds and lives of many others are repressed by the lack of freedom in another's mind. Why would a free mind feel the need to have power over someone else?Isn't that done in most democratic countries? Even the United States & Canada

capt_buzzard wrote: Isn't that done in most democratic countries? Even the United States & Canada


My point exactly.

On the hierarchy of needs, gaining freedom is a constant battle that continues up the levels until reaching self actualization. While some countries battle for freedom on physical survival levels others are predominantly concerned with mental or emotional levels. But there are people in the ghettos of America that would likely disagree that they have freedom on a physical level as well. They don't have bombs dropping all around them but they fight or steal for food every day. Hell. I know of people in Vancouver that have become homeless because of an inablility to take other action. So are they free?

On the dress code stuff...I think the right to chose what you wear should be left in the hands of good taste. Ban polyester suits. Throw those reasonless people in the slammer. (heehee)

I am opposed to government intervention in any matter concerning a person's body. Yet it happens everywhere. War or not. We all have our own levels of freedom repression, some more serious than others. It is not about who has it worse but more about what is it we are after? In total.

koan wrote: My point exactly.



On the hierarchy of needs, gaining freedom is a constant battle that continues up the levels until reaching self actualization. While some countries battle for freedom on physical survival levels others are predominantly concerned with mental or emotional levels. But there are people in the ghettos of America that would likely disagree that they have freedom on a physical level as well. They don't have bombs dropping all around them but they fight or steal for food every day. Hell. I know of people in Vancouver that have become homeless because of an inablility to take other action. So are they free?nope

capt_buzzard wrote: They only banned Islamic attireI think that is worth a whole new thread, in the UK there is now no religion in assembly and the nativity is a thing of the past, instead of allowing children to see the range of religions that make up their schools.

beyelzu wrote: freedom is being allowed to do what we want to so long as it does not harm others and we fulfill our societal obligations to others.


As for freedom, it is different for each individual, so as far as governmental policies/restraints go, no one is ever going to be happy.

There is also the problem of migration and the societal differences that are not always excepted. For instance, here we have a large population of muslims and sikhs, I'm saying both because I can't remember which ones it is, but I have known of cases in our hospital where we have had survivors of torture and I kid you not, think middle ages type torture with hot pokers etc.

This would be exceptable in their culture and society, but not in ours, yet it still happens because these people don't seem to except that they are now in a different society or think that our version of freedom allows them to continue with their barbaric practices.

letha wrote: I think that is worth a whole new thread, in the UK there is now no religion in assembly and the nativity is a thing of the past, instead of allowing children to see the range of religions that make up their schools.







As for freedom, it is different for each individual, so as far as governmental policies/restraints go, no one is ever going to be happy.



There is also the problem of migration and the societal differences that are not always excepted. For instance, here we have a large population of muslims and sikhs, I'm saying both because I can't remember which ones it is, but I have known of cases in our hospital where we have had survivors of torture and I kid you not, think middle ages type torture with hot pokers etc.

This would be exceptable in their culture and society, but not in ours, yet it still happens because these people don't seem to except that they are now in a different society or think that our version of freedom allows them to continue with their barbaric practices.Oh I hate to go to Britain today. It feels like I'm in some Asian country other than England. Of course you did invade many of these poor countries and made the people your subjects:D From Ireland to India

capt_buzzard wrote: Oh I hate to go to Britain today. It feels like I'm in some Asian country other than England. Of course you did invade many of these poor countries and made the people your subjects:D From Ireland to IndiaSo it's okay for them to come here and brutilise each other then ???

The people who have come here to make a new life for themselves hoped to evade living in fear of this type of torture.

To be able to follow one`s own beliefs and lifestyle (subject to it not impinging on another`s, eg, being a Buddhist, for example would be okay, but stabbing people at random would not) without fear or possibility of being punished for same?

I'd like to point out that:

*I think Arnorld made a good point.

*I think children of all nationalities are subject to victimization by parental brutality and these instances do not describe whole cultures.

*There is nothing wrong with large numbers of the Asian population living in the same areas. They are not taking over, they are living their lives along with the rest of us.

Koan, freedom is the knowledge that your own choice dictates all of your actions. The less that is true, the less free you are.

If you are unable to fly your own private jet, your freedom is restricted not by the lack of money or the lack of cheap aircraft or the existence of tight licencing requirements, your freedom is restricted by your desire. And so on, down through less silly examples.

As for the tyranny of society or the state, in constraining your freedom to act - they don't. You can do anything. The consequence may be imprisonment, but that is not a loss of freedom. If you're imprisoned and wish to do things that are no longer possible, the constraint on your freedom is, again, your desire, not your circumstance:

Stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage;

Minds innocent and quiet take that for an hermitage;

If I have freedom in my love and in my soul am free,

Angels alone that soar above enjoy such liberty.

Old age, missing limbs, that all fits into the same frame of reference. The only reason for not being free is that you choose to want something you can't at that moment have.

I think that is brilliant, spot.

the Zen cards say:

The cause of all suffering is craving. Desire things that you do not have and suffering will follow. Realize this and Peace will be yours. Suffering will disappear and contentment will reign.

They also say:

Each day accept everything that comes to you as a gift. At night mentally give it all back. In this way you become Free. No one can ever take anything from you for nothing is yours.

I don't know about that. I know some very happy stupid people. :wah:

koan wrote: *There is nothing wrong with large numbers of the Asian population living in the same areas. They are not taking over, they are living their lives along with the rest of us.I'd just like to point out that I wasn't saying there is anything wrong with the large numbers.

Many have moved from their own countries to escape brutal violence that is often punishment and not illegal in their original society, yet to some extent what they have run from has followed them, and because of a few many are still not free.

Last year, in the labour ward a young woman had to be given a c-section because of what had been done to her in this country, can you imagine living in a country that finds female circumcision wrong and offensive even a crime, thinking you will be safe from it, yet it is still done?

I have to tell you this story actually makes me cry because it has horrors that words can not do Justice.

letha wrote: I'd just like to point out that I wasn't saying there is anything wrong with the large numbers.



Many have moved from their own countries to escape brutal violence that is often punishment and not illegal in their original society, yet to some extent what they have run from has followed them, and because of a few many are still not free.



Last year, in the labour ward a young woman had to be given a c-section because of what had been done to her in this country, can you imagine living in a country that finds female circumcision wrong and offensive even a crime, thinking you will be safe from it, yet it is still done?

I have to tell you this story actually makes me cry because it has horrors that words can not do Justice.What some people do in the name of Religion.

Koan is correct on this one. :yh_clap Freedom is a state of mind

koan wrote:

the Zen cards say:

The cause of all suffering is craving. Desire things that you do not have and suffering will follow. Realize this and Peace will be yours. Suffering will disappear and contentment will reign.




That's powerful stuff koan. I try in my day to day life to be calm and rational and positive.



This zen reading reminds me of ' The Serenity Prayer ' ( a favourite )

God grant me the

serenity to accept

the things I cannot change,

courage to

change the things

I can

and wisdom to

know the

difference.


The other week I completely lost my inner calm and went through days of misery all because I couldn't have a hot shower. :-1 ( renovating house ) Now looking back, it was entirely self-inflicted silliness, feeling sorry for myself. If I'd been able to be more zen about it I could have spared myself a lot of tears and ugliness.

I really do try to be a good human being but sometimes I just get to the end of my little piece of rope and loose it.

I hope I learn from this ' life lesson '

To own, to know and to believe nothing, is freedom.

or perhaps freedom is to have perfect faith (which is not the same as religion)

or is freedom, acceptence

or would wanting to devine freedom, be a restriction?

shoot me , I don't know...