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I'm watching a programme called 'How God made the English' and something that always crops up in these shows is what it means to be English.

Is English an ethnic identity for whites only?

Or a national identity that a person even from an ethnic minority may be able to adopt?

Can an ethnic minority person call themselves English? Or is British more apt?

If they are born In the UK or have settled here but posses British Citizenship, then they are British.

So you don't accept it, when they call themselves English?

xara;1389568 wrote: So you don't accept it, when they call themselves English?


A very good friend of mine is as English as they come - Manky through and through even though he now lives in London.

The fact that his name is not Smith or Jones, his skin is not as white as the driven snow and his father does not hale from these parts makes no difference - he is English.

On the other hand, I've met third generation British who are still immigrants.

It is not about labels, it's about intent.

Bryn Mawr;1389571 wrote:

It is not about labels, it's about intent.


It becomes about labels when you have some people screaming things like 'you're not English - go back to your own country'.

I don't really think that person cares what the others intent is.

xara;1389563 wrote: I'm watching a programme called 'How God made the English' and something that always crops up in these shows is what it means to be English.

Is English an ethnic identity for whites only?

Or a national identity that a person even from an ethnic minority may be able to adopt?

Can an ethnic minority person call themselves English? Or is British more apt?


Firstly you might know but I am a Englishman born and bred, married to a Zimbabwe born and bred British citizen, she will never be English.

It is a bit too late now, but if we had a child that child would be English of Zimbabwean extraction, despite being mixed race.

You can adopt aspects of Englishness, but cannot become English, you either are or you are not.

I am no historian, but know that the inhabitants of England that call themselves English, were not drawn from England historically.

You can be born and bred in England and still never adopt Englishness, so although technically English will never feel English. There are some minorities that can be very English while retaining their former identity, such as Jews and other nationalities such as Asian corner shop types, who manage somehow to fit in both camps.

xara;1389568 wrote: So you don't accept it, when they call themselves English? Where did I say I don't accept It ?

xara;1389572 wrote: It becomes about labels when you have some people screaming things like 'you're not English - go back to your own country'.

I don't really think that person cares what the others intent is.


The problem then is with the people doing the shouting - we learnt how to deal with them back when the Blackshirts were going at the Jews.

The "black people" you refer to might well be English - the screaming people shouldn't be.

I've encountered racism within England between Afro/Caribbean vs Asian Muslim and vice versa......

oscar;1389574 wrote: Where did I say I don't accept It ?


Sorry misread your post. I don't mean the UK. I specifically mean England.

oscar;1389576 wrote: I've encountered racism within England between Afro/Caribbean vs Asian Muslim and vice versa......


And English and Irish, English and Scottish, English and Welsh.............there is a pattern forming here......did you notice ?

Bruv;1389573 wrote: Firstly you might know but I am a Englishman born and bred, married to a Zimbabwe born and bred British citizen, she will never be English.

It is a bit too late now, but if we had a child that child would be English of Zimbabwean extraction, despite being mixed race.

You can adopt aspects of Englishness, but cannot become English, you either are or you are not.

I am no historian, but know that the inhabitants of England that call themselves English, were not drawn from England historically.

You can be born and bred in England and still never adopt Englishness, so although technically English will never feel English. There are some minorities that can be very English while retaining their former identity, such as Jews and other nationalities such as Asian corner shop types, who manage somehow to fit in both camps.


So what is 'English' or 'Englishness'?

If you had to define it.

xara;1389580 wrote: So what is 'English' or 'Englishness'?

If you had to define it. England Is without Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Great Britain Is England, Wales and Scotland.

The United Kingdom Is England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Bryn Mawr;1389575 wrote:

The "black people" you refer to might well be English - the screaming people shouldn't be.


Lets call this screaming group the 'EDL'. Now to them they are English because they are a) white b) their ancestory lies in England.

Now you can be born and bred in England and have a British passport but none of these makes them English because their ancestory is not from English.

I think because there is no clear line of what is English and what is British it has become a divisive issue.

For example, I have seen some Black people call themselves English and they have 'integrated' into English society. Then you have some Asians who have been born and bred in England but do not see themselves as English, which some people see as unpatriotic and anti-integration because they are placing their loyalty to their ancestral country.

oscar;1389582 wrote: England Is without Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Great Britain Is England, Wales and Scotland.

The United Kingdom Is England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.


That was hardly the question

oscar;1389582 wrote: England Is without Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Great Britain Is England, Wales and Scotland.

The United Kingdom Is England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.


I know what England is.

I said English and Englishness. :-2

xara;1389563 wrote: I'm watching a programme called 'How God made the English' and something that always crops up in these shows is what it means to be English.

Is English an ethnic identity for whites only?

Or a national identity that a person even from an ethnic minority may be able to adopt?

Can an ethnic minority person call themselves English? Or is British more apt?


Is this definition acceptable?

Eng·lish   [ing-glish or, often, -lish] Show IPA

adjective

1.

of, pertaining to, or characteristic of England or its inhabitants, institutions, etc.

2.

belonging or pertaining to, or spoken or written in, the English language.

xara;1389580 wrote: So what is 'English' or 'Englishness'?

If you had to define it.


You want me to wax lyrical don't you ?

Somebody with a better word count will be along soon

No that will not do Lon........I am working on it.

Some things are indefinable, it involves fair play, arrogance, stoicism, humility, reservedness (If that is a word)

Lon;1389589 wrote: Is this definition acceptable?

Eng·lish   [ing-glish or, often, -lish] Show IPA

adjective

1.

of, pertaining to, or characteristic of England or its inhabitants, institutions, etc.

2.

belonging or pertaining to, or spoken or written in, the English language.


No. It does not specify if the 'inhabitants' are those that have inhabited England since it's creation, inhabitants who are British or anyone living here.

By that definition even an illegal immigrant could be English if they permanently lived here without ever being found out and deported.

Bruv;1389590 wrote: You want me to wax lyrical don't you ?




Is that South East slang?

xara, you are up in Alaska, right?

xara;1389585 wrote: Lets call this screaming group the 'EDL'. Now to them they are English because they are a) white b) their ancestory lies in England.

Now you can be born and bred in England and have a British passport but none of these makes them English because their ancestory is not from English.

I think because there is no clear line of what is English and what is British it has become a divisive issue.

For example, I have seen some Black people call themselves English and they have 'integrated' into English society. Then you have some Asians who have been born and bred in England but do not see themselves as English, which some people see as unpatriotic and anti-integration because they are placing their loyalty to their ancestral country.


The EDL are nothing but a bunch of drunken football hooligans despised by Nationlist parties such as the BNP. They are funded by British Zionists to wage war against Islam.... They are best avoided at all costs.

Englishness, Irishness, Scotishness, Iraqness........ whatever... It's where you feel you belong and feel you are part of. I have Turkish Immigrant friends who have British passports but ask them what Identity they are and they will shout Turkish at you. Yet go Into my Post Office and ask the owner who came here In 1960 from Pakistan what nationality he Is and he'll say British.

xara;1389595 wrote: Is that South East slang?


No it's English.

Can we ask where you hail from, and for the record, your ethnicity.

The "melting pot" gets harder & harder because of air travel. Immigrants never used to be able to visit their home countries. Once they arrived, they were there for better or worse. Even those who went out West in the US just stayed put where they were. If they couldn't travel so easily, you'd see more bonding with the new country. IMO.

xara;1389595 wrote: Is that South East slang? It means ' Talk Bollocks'.

xara;1389594 wrote: No. It does not specify if the 'inhabitants' are those that have inhabited England since it's creation, inhabitants who are British or anyone living here.

By that definition even an illegal immigrant could be English if they permanently lived here without ever being found out and deported.


I see----------then are we to dismiss ALL the different Dictionary definitions of the word that say the same thing and make up our own definitions for words?

Isn't wax lyrical a common expression? I've heard it all my life. Wax lyrical. Wax poetic. Same thing.

Can we ask where you hail from, and for the record, your ethnicity
Does FG have quotas?

Lon;1389601 wrote: I see----------then are we to dismiss ALL the different Dictionary definitions of the word that say the same thing and make up our own definitions for words?


Did the OP not make the intent of the thread clear? In that context the meaning of the post was plain enough.

AnneBoleyn;1389603 wrote: Does FG have quotas?


Would that be for currently posting members, members with at least one post or can we count all members since 2004?

The demographics would be totally different in each case.

oscar;1389600 wrote: It means ' Talk Bollocks'.


Not really, just to over do it a bit, but me being English are far too reserved to blow my own trumpet

oscar;1389597 wrote: Englishness, Irishness, Scotishness, Iraqness........ whatever... It's where you feel you belong and feel you are part of. I have Turkish Immigrant friends who have British passports but ask them what Identity they are and they will shout Turkish at you. Yet go Into my Post Office and ask the owner who came here In 1960 from Pakistan what nationality he Is and he'll say British.


Where ever you feel.... Sounds like a cop out answer.

Imagine if that was in the Oxford Dictionary.

Eng·lish

1. If you feel you belong

AnneBoleyn;1389602 wrote: Isn't wax lyrical a common expression? I've heard it all my life. Wax lyrical. Wax poetic. Same thing.


I'm not a poet,

that's maybe why I don't know it.

:yh_wink

xara;1389607 wrote: Where ever you feel.... Sounds like a cop out answer.

Imagine if that was in the Oxford Dictionary.

Eng·lish

1. If you feel you belong




Cop out answer how exactly.

What do YOU define as English then ?

AnneBoleyn;1389596 wrote: xara, you are up in Alaska, right?


Do you know me? :yh_ooooo

oscar;1389611 wrote: Cop out answer how exactly.




In that it is not a clean and concise definition.

It's very individualistic - about how a person feels.

I'm asking for a definition that I could see and say okay by this definition I can say that person is English and that person is not.

People don't say, do you feel English? They ask, are you English?

xara;1389614 wrote: In that it is not a clean and concise definition.

It's very individualistic - about how a person feels.

I'm asking for a definition that I could see and say okay by this definition I can say that person is English and that person is not.

People don't say, do you feel English? They ask, are you English?


When anyone says ' I am English', chances are they wrong and In fact European. England and the British Isles Is based on foreign Invasion ( The Vikings etc ) and we are really a race of mixed European.

AnneBoleyn;1389596 wrote: xara, you are up in Alaska, right?


Xara, Anne is a KGB agent.

How about you defining Englishness.

Here is a good link to take a look at............I remember the program

oscar;1389616 wrote: When anyone says ' I am English', chances are they wrong and In fact European. England and the British Isles Is based on foreign Invasion ( The Vikings etc ) and we are really a race of mixed European.


Surely that is just squabbling over shades of white.

oscar;1389616 wrote: When anyone says ' I am English', chances are they wrong and In fact European. England and the British Isles Is based on foreign Invasion ( The Vikings etc ) and we are really a race of mixed European.


Like the most English person we all know.......................The Queen ?

Bruv;1389620 wrote: How about you defining Englishness.

Here is a good link to take a look at............I remember the program That's exactly what I was getting at.

Ask anyone who claims they are English and they will Insist they of Anglo-Saxon stock until presented with the DNA evidence.

oscar;1389623 wrote: That's exactly what I was getting at.

Ask anyone who claims they are English and they will Insist they of Anglo-Saxon stock until presented with the DNA evidence.


Hardly realistic.

"Oh, you're English are you? May I have some of your DNA?"

:wah:

oscar;1389616 wrote: When anyone says ' I am English', chances are they wrong and In fact European. England and the British Isles Is based on foreign Invasion ( The Vikings etc ) and we are really a race of mixed European.


Given that we cannot define Englishness in terms of belonging to the native stock of this island (given that there was no native stock in the days when it wasn't an island then it must, at best, be time limited.

If you define it purely in terms of how far your roots go back then how many generations would you suggest would be necessary to call yourself English?

I prefer to define it in terms of a person's mindset - is England the home of their heart and do English values guide their thinking (accepting that "English values" are constantly changing over time).

Our 1st born grandson, Max, was born on October 11, 2011 in London. Her mother, a nurse, is from Poland. We don`t call Max English. To us he`s a British citizen not English, or Irish, or Scottish, or Welsh.

oscar;1389623 wrote: That's exactly what I was getting at.

Ask anyone who claims they are English and they will Insist they of Anglo-Saxon stock until presented with the DNA evidence.


I think you have it wrong, THAT is Englishness, nothing to do with ancestry or ethnicity, it is a state of mind, an attitude.

Bryn Mawr;1389627 wrote:

I prefer to define it in terms of a person's mindset - is England the home of their heart and do English values guide their thinking (accepting that "English values" are constantly changing over time).
That's what I was meaning In my example of Turkish friends with British Citizenship Insisting they are Turkish and my Post Master Insisting he Is British.

Bryn Mawr;1389627 wrote: do English values guide their thinking (accepting that "English values" are constantly changing over time).


What are 'English values?'

I know you said they are changing, but the core values.

For example, some may say Christianity is an English value. In which case it rules out all those from other faiths.

Bruv;1389629 wrote: I think you have it wrong, THAT is Englishness, nothing to do with ancestry or ethnicity, it is a state of mind, an attitude.


Even if you feel English the fact of the matter is if your skin is not white there are people who are going to say you are not English. And if you hear it long enough you will start to question your identity.

Someone might think, "Well if this English guy doesn't think I'm English, maybe I'm not after all who else better to know what is English than an Englishman"