Apologies to gmc because I know this has been posted before.
Should Salmond's dream be achieved, how would Scotland fund such an enormous change?
Scotland would need their own:
Border control
Passports
Parliament
Defence
Airports
Immigration control
Currency
Would Scotland be part of the EU ?
What would be Scotland's GDP ?
In 2010 the estimated population of Scotland was a mere 52,22,100 ... The figure for the unemployed In Scotland Is 216,000.... 10,000 up on the previous quarter and rising..
How would Scotland fund this change because the only way possible to me, Is tax every working man and woman to the hilt?
The Independent Scotland
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Independent Scotland
Scotland generates more in taxation than it actually receives back. Scotlland's share of the GDP is about 11.5% we receive back 805%. We keep all the revenue generated. Then there is also the income from the crown estates. take that off the crown since they stole it in the first place. We will stay in the EU since we've always been more in favour of it than the rest of the country anyway and the bulk of our trade is with them. Scare stories about border controls, currency ( you don't accept scottish bank notes as it is) etc are spread about by those english tory MP's that realise they need scotlands wealth to hide the mess they have made of the economy and supported by labouir MP's who realise that without scottish MP's in westminster voting on english matters they would never be able to form a government. At the end of the day if there is a referendum and scots vote in favour the discussion is over - all that will remain will be the detail.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
gmc;1363840 wrote: Scotland generates more in taxation than it actually receives back. Scotlland's share of the GDP is about 11.5% we receive back 805%. We keep all the revenue generated. Then there is also the income from the crown estates. take that off the crown since they stole it in the first place. We will stay in the EU since we've always been more in favour of it than the rest of the country anyway and the bulk of our trade is with them. Scare stories about border controls, currency ( you don't accept scottish bank notes as it is) etc are spread about by those english tory MP's that realise they need scotlands wealth to hide the mess they have made of the economy and supported by labouir MP's who realise that without scottish MP's in westminster voting on english matters they would never be able to form a government. At the end of the day if there is a referendum and scots vote in favour the discussion is over - all that will remain will be the detail.
Hang on.. Didn't Salmond fail to get an overall majority and finally only at the end of last year, he announced that a referendum bill would not be laid before MSP's ? Was that because recent academic research has shown, public support for independence has, at best, flatlined over the past three years at about 30% ?
Separation would mean up to a 12p rise in income tax, pushing the rate up to 32p. Leader Annabel Goldie has also criticised SNP plans for a local income tax, saying this would add another 4.6p. Taking into account the 12p national insurance for basic rate taxpayers, the Tories say the average Scot could be paying 48.6p in every pound in tax while higher rate taxpayers could pay as much as 68.6p.
Alex Salmond would turn Scotland into the highest taxed part of Britain. Ordinary Scots face paying nearly half their earnings in taxes
Hang on.. Didn't Salmond fail to get an overall majority and finally only at the end of last year, he announced that a referendum bill would not be laid before MSP's ? Was that because recent academic research has shown, public support for independence has, at best, flatlined over the past three years at about 30% ?
Separation would mean up to a 12p rise in income tax, pushing the rate up to 32p. Leader Annabel Goldie has also criticised SNP plans for a local income tax, saying this would add another 4.6p. Taking into account the 12p national insurance for basic rate taxpayers, the Tories say the average Scot could be paying 48.6p in every pound in tax while higher rate taxpayers could pay as much as 68.6p.
Alex Salmond would turn Scotland into the highest taxed part of Britain. Ordinary Scots face paying nearly half their earnings in taxes
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Independent Scotland
oscar;1363843 wrote: Hang on.. Didn't Salmond fail to get an overall majority and finally only at the end of last year, he announced that a referendum bill would not be laid before MSP's ? Was that because recent academic research has shown, public support for independence has, at best, flatlined over the past three years at about 30% ?
Separation would mean up to a 12p rise in income tax, pushing the rate up to 32p. Leader Annabel Goldie has also criticised SNP plans for a local income tax, saying this would add another 4.6p. Taking into account the 12p national insurance for basic rate taxpayers, the Tories say the average Scot could be paying 48.6p in every pound in tax while higher rate taxpayers could pay as much as 68.6p.
Alex Salmond would turn Scotland into the highest taxed part of Britain. Ordinary Scots face paying nearly half their earnings in taxes
Is that "up to 12%" as in "that's the highest estimate we've managed to find and that was by a rabid anti-independence campaigner with no data to back it up"?
As gmc says, neither of the main UK parties want to let go - that being so you need to examine their statements with the finest of toothcombs.
The utter bull that came out during the recent referendum on AV was a prime example.
Separation would mean up to a 12p rise in income tax, pushing the rate up to 32p. Leader Annabel Goldie has also criticised SNP plans for a local income tax, saying this would add another 4.6p. Taking into account the 12p national insurance for basic rate taxpayers, the Tories say the average Scot could be paying 48.6p in every pound in tax while higher rate taxpayers could pay as much as 68.6p.
Alex Salmond would turn Scotland into the highest taxed part of Britain. Ordinary Scots face paying nearly half their earnings in taxes
Is that "up to 12%" as in "that's the highest estimate we've managed to find and that was by a rabid anti-independence campaigner with no data to back it up"?
As gmc says, neither of the main UK parties want to let go - that being so you need to examine their statements with the finest of toothcombs.
The utter bull that came out during the recent referendum on AV was a prime example.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
Bryn Mawr;1363874 wrote: Is that "up to 12%" as in "that's the highest estimate we've managed to find and that was by a rabid anti-independence campaigner with no data to back it up"?
As gmc says, neither of the main UK parties want to let go - that being so you need to examine their statements with the finest of toothcombs.
The utter bull that came out during the recent referendum on AV was a prime example. I took those stats from the Conservative Party.
As gmc says, neither of the main UK parties want to let go - that being so you need to examine their statements with the finest of toothcombs.
The utter bull that came out during the recent referendum on AV was a prime example. I took those stats from the Conservative Party.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Independent Scotland
oscar;1363877 wrote: I took those stats from the Conservative Party.
Exactly, a body which is actively campaigning against Scottish independence and which has a history of manipulating the "facts" presented before a referendum.
Exactly, a body which is actively campaigning against Scottish independence and which has a history of manipulating the "facts" presented before a referendum.
The Independent Scotland
oscar;1363843 wrote: Hang on.. Didn't Salmond fail to get an overall majority and finally only at the end of last year, he announced that a referendum bill would not be laid before MSP's ? Was that because recent academic research has shown, public support for independence has, at best, flatlined over the past three years at about 30% ?
Separation would mean up to a 12p rise in income tax, pushing the rate up to 32p. Leader Annabel Goldie has also criticised SNP plans for a local income tax, saying this would add another 4.6p. Taking into account the 12p national insurance for basic rate taxpayers, the Tories say the average Scot could be paying 48.6p in every pound in tax while higher rate taxpayers could pay as much as 68.6p.
Alex Salmond would turn Scotland into the highest taxed part of Britain. Ordinary Scots face paying nearly half their earnings in taxes
They were a minority government and attempts to have a referendum were blocked by the other parties. Have you been sleeping? They won a landslide victory in this years election with an overall majority, previously he had stated they would only have a referendum towards the end of the parliamentary tern if they won once they had had a chance to show the electorate what they could do in government. The calls for an immediate referendum were a feeble attempt to grandstand from people who are on record stating the Scottish people don't have a right to one. Annabel Goldie only has a seat at all because of the proportional representation that her party is so opposed to. Tory support is not just flat lined in Scotland it has ceased to exist as if it never was. Labour support is flatlining as well. You are correct support for full independence is between 25 - 30%. But then look who is running the country and what they are doing and ask yourself what will the inheritor of thatcher's legacy be able to achieve in raising that percentage. . The lib dems have had it it's between labour and the SNP
Ordinary scots already do pay half their earnings in tax, as indeed do the english, tot up income tax, NI contributions then factor in the fact that indirect taxation hits low earners far more than they do high earners and the reality is the lower to middle income earners are worse off under new labour and the tories. VAT at 20% and fuel duty mean most families are spending £50 - £100 a month more on fuel than before. How much do you spend on petrol? What most london politicians can't grasp is that a car, up here or in rural areas in england, is not a luxury but a necessity. Thank Thatcher all the profits from British gas are going to germany and france. Art a time when demand is at an all time high and oio is beginning to run out they are taken in by oil companies bleating that high taxes mean they will sulk and not extract the oil. That is a load of bollocks. Norway levies higher taxes than we do, the difference they invest the revenues not waste it in tax cuts and pointless wars.
Separation would mean up to a 12p rise in income tax, pushing the rate up to 32p. Leader Annabel Goldie has also criticised SNP plans for a local income tax, saying this would add another 4.6p. Taking into account the 12p national insurance for basic rate taxpayers, the Tories say the average Scot could be paying 48.6p in every pound in tax while higher rate taxpayers could pay as much as 68.6p.
Alex Salmond would turn Scotland into the highest taxed part of Britain. Ordinary Scots face paying nearly half their earnings in taxes
They were a minority government and attempts to have a referendum were blocked by the other parties. Have you been sleeping? They won a landslide victory in this years election with an overall majority, previously he had stated they would only have a referendum towards the end of the parliamentary tern if they won once they had had a chance to show the electorate what they could do in government. The calls for an immediate referendum were a feeble attempt to grandstand from people who are on record stating the Scottish people don't have a right to one. Annabel Goldie only has a seat at all because of the proportional representation that her party is so opposed to. Tory support is not just flat lined in Scotland it has ceased to exist as if it never was. Labour support is flatlining as well. You are correct support for full independence is between 25 - 30%. But then look who is running the country and what they are doing and ask yourself what will the inheritor of thatcher's legacy be able to achieve in raising that percentage. . The lib dems have had it it's between labour and the SNP
Ordinary scots already do pay half their earnings in tax, as indeed do the english, tot up income tax, NI contributions then factor in the fact that indirect taxation hits low earners far more than they do high earners and the reality is the lower to middle income earners are worse off under new labour and the tories. VAT at 20% and fuel duty mean most families are spending £50 - £100 a month more on fuel than before. How much do you spend on petrol? What most london politicians can't grasp is that a car, up here or in rural areas in england, is not a luxury but a necessity. Thank Thatcher all the profits from British gas are going to germany and france. Art a time when demand is at an all time high and oio is beginning to run out they are taken in by oil companies bleating that high taxes mean they will sulk and not extract the oil. That is a load of bollocks. Norway levies higher taxes than we do, the difference they invest the revenues not waste it in tax cuts and pointless wars.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
gmc;1363879 wrote: They were a minority government and attempts to have a referendum were blocked by the other parties. Have you been sleeping? They won a landslide victory in this years election with an overall majority, previously he had stated they would only have a referendum towards the end of the parliamentary tern if they won once they had had a chance to show the electorate what they could do in government. The calls for an immediate referendum were a feeble attempt to grandstand from people who are on record stating the Scottish people don't have a right to one. Annabel Goldie only has a seat at all because of the proportional representation that her party is so opposed to. Tory support is not just flat lined in Scotland it has ceased to exist as if it never was. Labour support is flatlining as well. You are correct support for full independence is between 25 - 30%. But then look who is running the country and what they are doing and ask yourself what will the inheritor of thatcher's legacy be able to achieve in raising that percentage. . The lib dems have had it it's between labour and the SNP
Ordinary scots already do pay half their earnings in tax, as indeed do the english, tot up income tax, NI contributions then factor in the fact that indirect taxation hits low earners far more than they do high earners and the reality is the lower to middle income earners are worse off under new labour and the tories. VAT at 20% and fuel duty mean most families are spending £50 - £100 a month more on fuel than before. How much do you spend on petrol? What most london politicians can't grasp is that a car, up here or in rural areas in england, is not a luxury but a necessity. Thank Thatcher all the profits from British gas are going to germany and france. Art a time when demand is at an all time high and oio is beginning to run out they are taken in by oil companies bleating that high taxes mean they will sulk and not extract the oil. That is a load of bollocks. Norway levies higher taxes than we do, the difference they invest the revenues not waste it in tax cuts and pointless wars.
According to the SNP's own figures, an Independent Scotland would already be 14 billion In the red.
Independent Scotland would have been £14 billlion in the red last year, governments figures show - The Daily Record
What would be your main revenue? Oil ? How much of the oil revenues would go to Edinburgh. How much public debt would Westminster dump on Holyrood; even what currency would you adopt over the long run.
Would you try re-claiming UK sea-beds that the Crown Estate rents out ?
Ordinary scots already do pay half their earnings in tax, as indeed do the english, tot up income tax, NI contributions then factor in the fact that indirect taxation hits low earners far more than they do high earners and the reality is the lower to middle income earners are worse off under new labour and the tories. VAT at 20% and fuel duty mean most families are spending £50 - £100 a month more on fuel than before. How much do you spend on petrol? What most london politicians can't grasp is that a car, up here or in rural areas in england, is not a luxury but a necessity. Thank Thatcher all the profits from British gas are going to germany and france. Art a time when demand is at an all time high and oio is beginning to run out they are taken in by oil companies bleating that high taxes mean they will sulk and not extract the oil. That is a load of bollocks. Norway levies higher taxes than we do, the difference they invest the revenues not waste it in tax cuts and pointless wars.
According to the SNP's own figures, an Independent Scotland would already be 14 billion In the red.
Independent Scotland would have been £14 billlion in the red last year, governments figures show - The Daily Record
What would be your main revenue? Oil ? How much of the oil revenues would go to Edinburgh. How much public debt would Westminster dump on Holyrood; even what currency would you adopt over the long run.
Would you try re-claiming UK sea-beds that the Crown Estate rents out ?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Independent Scotland
oscar;1363895 wrote: According to the SNP's own figures, an Independent Scotland would already be 14 billion In the red.
Independent Scotland would have been £14 billlion in the red last year, governments figures show - The Daily Record
What would be your main revenue? Oil ? How much of the oil revenues would go to Edinburgh. How much public debt would Westminster dump on Holyrood; even what currency would you adopt over the long run.
Would you try re-claiming UK sea-beds that the Crown Estate rents out ?
I've just looked and I must say I'm surprised.
Whilst there is a concentration of gas fields around the Wash, all of the North Sea Oil is in Scottish waters - under international law all of the oil revenue would go to Edinburgh =8^o
It is not even as though the ownership of the sea beds would be in dispute, if Scotland ceased to be part of the UK then ownership would revert to them.
Independent Scotland would have been £14 billlion in the red last year, governments figures show - The Daily Record
What would be your main revenue? Oil ? How much of the oil revenues would go to Edinburgh. How much public debt would Westminster dump on Holyrood; even what currency would you adopt over the long run.
Would you try re-claiming UK sea-beds that the Crown Estate rents out ?
I've just looked and I must say I'm surprised.
Whilst there is a concentration of gas fields around the Wash, all of the North Sea Oil is in Scottish waters - under international law all of the oil revenue would go to Edinburgh =8^o
It is not even as though the ownership of the sea beds would be in dispute, if Scotland ceased to be part of the UK then ownership would revert to them.
The Independent Scotland
oscar;1363843 wrote: Hang on.. Didn't Salmond fail to get an overall majority and finally only at the end of last year, he announced that a referendum bill would not be laid before MSP's ?
No, he didn't. In the last election he got not only an overall majority but an absolute majority - in a system which was designed by the Unionist parties to prevent just such an eventuality. The referendum bill will be presented to Parliament on schedule in the latter half of this term.
On your OP, viz:-
Border control - We have only ONE border
Passports - Yes please
Parliament - We've already got that (and it works)
Defence - What defence? The present government have just closed two of the three airbases we had. (Leuchars and Kinloss)
Airports - We have airports
Immigration control - We have no problem with immigrants - the "subsidy junkies" are concentrated around London.....
Currency - Ours is better looking - none of our banknotes have a sour-faced old bat* on them
* with the possible exception of the Mary Slessor fivers issued by the Clydesdale some years ago....
No, he didn't. In the last election he got not only an overall majority but an absolute majority - in a system which was designed by the Unionist parties to prevent just such an eventuality. The referendum bill will be presented to Parliament on schedule in the latter half of this term.
On your OP, viz:-
Border control - We have only ONE border
Passports - Yes please
Parliament - We've already got that (and it works)
Defence - What defence? The present government have just closed two of the three airbases we had. (Leuchars and Kinloss)
Airports - We have airports
Immigration control - We have no problem with immigrants - the "subsidy junkies" are concentrated around London.....
Currency - Ours is better looking - none of our banknotes have a sour-faced old bat* on them
* with the possible exception of the Mary Slessor fivers issued by the Clydesdale some years ago....
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
-
fuzzywuzzy
- Posts: 6596
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
The Independent Scotland
I trully hope Scotland becomes it's own country again . Scots as I have wittnessed myself are a much prouder people than the Brits.
The Independent Scotland
When did we stop accepting Scottish currency here?
The Independent Scotland
Chookie;1363908 wrote: No, he didn't. In the last election he got not only an overall majority but an absolute majority - in a system which was designed by the Unionist parties to prevent just such an eventuality. The referendum bill will be presented to Parliament on schedule in the latter half of this term.
On your OP, viz:-
Border control - We have only ONE border
Passports - Yes please
Parliament - We've already got that (and it works)
Defence - What defence? The present government have just closed two of the three airbases we had. (Leuchars and Kinloss)
Airports - We have airports
Immigration control - We have no problem with immigrants - the "subsidy junkies" are concentrated around London.....
Currency - Ours is better looking - none of our banknotes have a sour-faced old bat* on them
* with the possible exception of the Mary Slessor fivers issued by the Clydesdale some years ago....
Border Control - You have only one land border, every airport and harbour is a border to be policed
Passports - Your welcome
Parliament - You have half of one - lots more functions for you to develop yet
Defence - From the Sassenachs of course. Consists of signs like "English Bastards go Home" on the M6 bridge but could do with bolstering
Airports - Granted
Immigration Control - Whilst you're a British Colony who wants to. As an independent country you might find it's different
Currency - But it's all issued by private companies at the moment. Wouldn't the government want to get in on the act?
On your OP, viz:-
Border control - We have only ONE border
Passports - Yes please
Parliament - We've already got that (and it works)
Defence - What defence? The present government have just closed two of the three airbases we had. (Leuchars and Kinloss)
Airports - We have airports
Immigration control - We have no problem with immigrants - the "subsidy junkies" are concentrated around London.....
Currency - Ours is better looking - none of our banknotes have a sour-faced old bat* on them
* with the possible exception of the Mary Slessor fivers issued by the Clydesdale some years ago....
Border Control - You have only one land border, every airport and harbour is a border to be policed
Passports - Your welcome
Parliament - You have half of one - lots more functions for you to develop yet
Defence - From the Sassenachs of course. Consists of signs like "English Bastards go Home" on the M6 bridge but could do with bolstering
Airports - Granted
Immigration Control - Whilst you're a British Colony who wants to. As an independent country you might find it's different
Currency - But it's all issued by private companies at the moment. Wouldn't the government want to get in on the act?
The Independent Scotland
OpenMind;1363919 wrote: When did we stop accepting Scottish currency here?
We haven't but there are some miserable shopkeepers that never found that out.
And as Bonaparte said, we're a nation of shopkeepers.
We haven't but there are some miserable shopkeepers that never found that out.
And as Bonaparte said, we're a nation of shopkeepers.
-
fuzzywuzzy
- Posts: 6596
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
The Independent Scotland
I couldn't use Scottish currency in Britain ...No body would accept it.
The Independent Scotland
fuzzywuzzy;1363928 wrote: I couldn't use Scottish currency in Britain ...No body would accept it.
Britain is a generic term for the largest of the british isles in which you will find three nations, wales, england and scotland. You can't go from scotland to britain you are already there.
posted by bryn mawr
Immigration Control - Whilst you're a British Colony who wants to. As an independent country you might find it's different
Unlike wales scotland was never conquered by the english, unlike wales we are not a colony. As a welshman you should know that the english defeated and conquered you. The act of union was between two sovereign nations and the English had to bribe our politicians. If we choose to undo it is our choice. Quite frankly the more the English come out with the kind of crap they have been and try and tell us we can't survive without them the more likely it is that scots will vote for independence.
I think it stems from fear, personally I have every confidence that england will be able to survive without the scots to prop them up and surely weaning them off their dependence on scottish oil will be a good thing.
Britain is a generic term for the largest of the british isles in which you will find three nations, wales, england and scotland. You can't go from scotland to britain you are already there.
posted by bryn mawr
Immigration Control - Whilst you're a British Colony who wants to. As an independent country you might find it's different
Unlike wales scotland was never conquered by the english, unlike wales we are not a colony. As a welshman you should know that the english defeated and conquered you. The act of union was between two sovereign nations and the English had to bribe our politicians. If we choose to undo it is our choice. Quite frankly the more the English come out with the kind of crap they have been and try and tell us we can't survive without them the more likely it is that scots will vote for independence.
I think it stems from fear, personally I have every confidence that england will be able to survive without the scots to prop them up and surely weaning them off their dependence on scottish oil will be a good thing.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
fuzzywuzzy;1363916 wrote: I trully hope Scotland becomes it's own country again . Scots as I have wittnessed myself are a much prouder people than the Brits. Scotland Is part of Britain.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
Bryn Mawr;1363925 wrote: We haven't but there are some miserable shopkeepers that never found that out.
And as Bonaparte said, we're a nation of shopkeepers. I have always found ' I think you will find that Is legal tender my good man/woman ' helpful.
And as Bonaparte said, we're a nation of shopkeepers. I have always found ' I think you will find that Is legal tender my good man/woman ' helpful.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Independent Scotland
oscar;1363953 wrote: I have always found ' I think you will find that Is legal tender my good man/woman ' helpful.
In actual fact scottish bank notes are not legal tender - not even in scotland as it happens- it is entirely at the discretion of the vendor whether or not they want to accept them, you cannot insist that they do. In practice if you have just filled up with petrol and offer to pay in Scottish notes most garages will accept it, in practice a shop does not have to and would be within their rights to refuse to accept it.
Bank of England | Banknotes | More About Banknotes | Banknote FAQs
Are Scottish & Northern Irish notes legal tender?
In short ‘No’ these notes are not legal tender; only Bank of England notes are legal tender but only in England and Wales.
The term legal tender does not in itself govern the acceptability of banknotes in transactions. Whether or not notes have legal tender status, their acceptability as a means of payment is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved. Legal tender has a very narrow technical meaning in relation to the settlement of debt. If a debtor pays in legal tender the exact amount he owes under the terms of a contract, he has good defence in law if he is subsequently sued for non-payment of the debt. In ordinary everyday transactions, the term ‘legal tender’ has very little practical application.
I recently caused a stooshie in a crowded bar while on holiday in England by refusing a norhern irish banknote - contract law works both ways when buying something if you are offered change you consider unacceptable - ripped bank note or whatever you don't have to accept it. If you think you have been given the wrong change, for £10 instead of £20 you have a right to challenge it at the time and insist on a till check and are within your rights to call the police if they don't. Remember that next time some barman tries it on you in a bar or a crowded supermarket queue.
In actual fact scottish bank notes are not legal tender - not even in scotland as it happens- it is entirely at the discretion of the vendor whether or not they want to accept them, you cannot insist that they do. In practice if you have just filled up with petrol and offer to pay in Scottish notes most garages will accept it, in practice a shop does not have to and would be within their rights to refuse to accept it.
Bank of England | Banknotes | More About Banknotes | Banknote FAQs
Are Scottish & Northern Irish notes legal tender?
In short ‘No’ these notes are not legal tender; only Bank of England notes are legal tender but only in England and Wales.
The term legal tender does not in itself govern the acceptability of banknotes in transactions. Whether or not notes have legal tender status, their acceptability as a means of payment is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved. Legal tender has a very narrow technical meaning in relation to the settlement of debt. If a debtor pays in legal tender the exact amount he owes under the terms of a contract, he has good defence in law if he is subsequently sued for non-payment of the debt. In ordinary everyday transactions, the term ‘legal tender’ has very little practical application.
I recently caused a stooshie in a crowded bar while on holiday in England by refusing a norhern irish banknote - contract law works both ways when buying something if you are offered change you consider unacceptable - ripped bank note or whatever you don't have to accept it. If you think you have been given the wrong change, for £10 instead of £20 you have a right to challenge it at the time and insist on a till check and are within your rights to call the police if they don't. Remember that next time some barman tries it on you in a bar or a crowded supermarket queue.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
gmc;1363956 wrote: In actual fact scottish bank notes are not legal tender - not even in scotland as it happens- it is entirely at the discretion of the vendor whether or not they want to accept them, you cannot insist that they do. In practice if you have just filled up with petrol and offer to pay in Scottish notes most garages will accept it, in practice a shop does not have to and would be within their rights to refuse to accept it.
Bank of England | Banknotes | More About Banknotes | Banknote FAQs
I recently caused a stooshie in a crowded bar while on holiday in England by refusing a norhern irish banknote - contract law works both ways when buying something if you are offered change you consider unacceptable - ripped bank note or whatever you don't have to accept it. If you think you have been given the wrong change, for £10 instead of £20 you have a right to challenge it at the time and insist on a till check and are within your rights to call the police if they don't. Remember that next time some barman tries it on you in a bar or a crowded supermarket queue.
Is a 'Stooshie ' a Dundee scone?
As far as I am concerned, If some-one has given me a Scottish note In England, then England should expect to get It back.
Bank of England | Banknotes | More About Banknotes | Banknote FAQs
I recently caused a stooshie in a crowded bar while on holiday in England by refusing a norhern irish banknote - contract law works both ways when buying something if you are offered change you consider unacceptable - ripped bank note or whatever you don't have to accept it. If you think you have been given the wrong change, for £10 instead of £20 you have a right to challenge it at the time and insist on a till check and are within your rights to call the police if they don't. Remember that next time some barman tries it on you in a bar or a crowded supermarket queue.
Is a 'Stooshie ' a Dundee scone?
As far as I am concerned, If some-one has given me a Scottish note In England, then England should expect to get It back.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
gmc;1363956 wrote: In actual fact scottish bank notes are not legal tender - not even in scotland as it happens- i
.
Still, at least If you become Independent, the English can take down those signs at service stations just outside Scotland saying... ' Warning... last salad for 200 miles ' :sneaky:
.
Still, at least If you become Independent, the English can take down those signs at service stations just outside Scotland saying... ' Warning... last salad for 200 miles ' :sneaky:
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
fuzzywuzzy
- Posts: 6596
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
The Independent Scotland
Yes Yes I know the generic term for the Isles itself ...I just don't see Scotland Wales or Ireland being british ...England is England (brits) and the others are solely the others . It's like calling me British because we have a Union jack on our flag .
Also I couldn't use Scottish currency in england.
Also I couldn't use Scottish currency in england.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
fuzzywuzzy;1363974 wrote: Yes Yes I know the generic term for the Isles itself ...I just don't see Scotland Wales or Ireland being british ...England is England (brits) and the others are solely the others . It's like calling me British because we have a Union jack on our flag .
Also I couldn't use Scottish currency in england. No, you have your own flag, white stars on a blue background. The small Union Jack In the left hand corner Is purely to Indicate that Australia Is part of the Commonwealth.
Also I couldn't use Scottish currency in england. No, you have your own flag, white stars on a blue background. The small Union Jack In the left hand corner Is purely to Indicate that Australia Is part of the Commonwealth.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Independent Scotland
oscar;1363971 wrote: Still, at least If you become Independent, the English can take down those signs at service stations just outside Scotland saying... ' Warning... last salad for 200 miles ' :sneaky:
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
posted by fuzzywuzzy
Yes Yes I know the generic term for the Isles itself ...I just don't see Scotland Wales or Ireland being british ...England is England (brits) and the others are solely the others . It's like calling me British because we have a Union jack on our flag .
Also I couldn't use Scottish currency in england.
Britannia is the name the Romans gave these islands. If you want to be really pedantic the original celtic inhabitants of these islands got pushed to the extremities, The Welsh today are descended from many people. Celtic tribes from Europe came to settle the whole of the British isles around 500-100 BC, alongside the original Iron Age population. It was their language which sowed the seeds of the modern Welsh language. Roman and Saxon invasions pushed the original Britons into the land area of Wales. As a final irony the word welsh is in origin an anglo-saxon word meaning foreigner. In Scotland the original pictish inhabitants were wiped out by successive saxon, viking invasions and the scots invaded from ireland filling a power vacuum caused by the picts and the saxons fighting to the point the picts could no longer stand up to invaders from the south and from scandanavia.(sassenach isactually the Gaelic word for saxon) Being really picky the welsh have a far better claim to be called british than the english do, they were here first. Don't refer to the english as british, only use the word when you mean all three, especially if you happen to be in scotland, wales or Northern Ireland - especially northern lreland - tell a big hairy ulsterman he's not british and you find him getting very upset at you. Talk about the british when you mean the english and you antagonise the scots and welsh, well maybe not so much the welsh.
I couldn't use Scottish currency in England either - you get away with it near the border but south of carlisle is gets problematical.
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
posted by fuzzywuzzy
Yes Yes I know the generic term for the Isles itself ...I just don't see Scotland Wales or Ireland being british ...England is England (brits) and the others are solely the others . It's like calling me British because we have a Union jack on our flag .
Also I couldn't use Scottish currency in england.
Britannia is the name the Romans gave these islands. If you want to be really pedantic the original celtic inhabitants of these islands got pushed to the extremities, The Welsh today are descended from many people. Celtic tribes from Europe came to settle the whole of the British isles around 500-100 BC, alongside the original Iron Age population. It was their language which sowed the seeds of the modern Welsh language. Roman and Saxon invasions pushed the original Britons into the land area of Wales. As a final irony the word welsh is in origin an anglo-saxon word meaning foreigner. In Scotland the original pictish inhabitants were wiped out by successive saxon, viking invasions and the scots invaded from ireland filling a power vacuum caused by the picts and the saxons fighting to the point the picts could no longer stand up to invaders from the south and from scandanavia.(sassenach isactually the Gaelic word for saxon) Being really picky the welsh have a far better claim to be called british than the english do, they were here first. Don't refer to the english as british, only use the word when you mean all three, especially if you happen to be in scotland, wales or Northern Ireland - especially northern lreland - tell a big hairy ulsterman he's not british and you find him getting very upset at you. Talk about the british when you mean the english and you antagonise the scots and welsh, well maybe not so much the welsh.
I couldn't use Scottish currency in England either - you get away with it near the border but south of carlisle is gets problematical.
The Independent Scotland
So basically the Scots are our Texans.:rolleyes:
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
YZGI;1364022 wrote: So basically the Scots are our Texans.:rolleyes: Put It this way. Some Scots are no strangers to a tit bit.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Independent Scotland
YZGI;1364022 wrote: So basically the Scots are our Texans.:rolleyes:
What's wrong with Texans? All I know about texas is GW Bush and beyonce come from there and John Wayne won at the alamo and got their freedom from Mexico and they invented chilli con carne
What's wrong with Texans? All I know about texas is GW Bush and beyonce come from there and John Wayne won at the alamo and got their freedom from Mexico and they invented chilli con carne
The Independent Scotland
gmc;1364029 wrote: What's wrong with Texans? All I know about texas is GW Bush and beyonce come from there and John Wayne won at the alamo and got their freedom from Mexico and they invented chilli con carne
John Wayne was our William Wallace..
John Wayne was our William Wallace..
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
gmc;1364029 wrote: What's wrong with Texans? They eat Grits
Grits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Surprised your lot haven't caught onto them and deep fried them yet :sneaky:
Grits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Surprised your lot haven't caught onto them and deep fried them yet :sneaky:
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Independent Scotland
oscar;1364031 wrote: They eat Grits
Grits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Surprised your lot haven't caught onto them and deep fried them yet :sneaky:
I'll stick with the mars bars thank you very much.
Grits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Surprised your lot haven't caught onto them and deep fried them yet :sneaky:
I'll stick with the mars bars thank you very much.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
gmc;1364032 wrote: I'll stick with the mars bars thank you very much.
Said Mick Jagger to Marrianne Faithful.
Said Mick Jagger to Marrianne Faithful.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
The Independent Scotland
I'm just wondering what UK government functions are currently operated from Scotland. There must be some. They'd have to relocate.
I think the Scots are gone. Going to take some getting used to, but there it is. They've enough oil to keep them going for a while.
I just think it's really bad idea and going to mean nothing but trouble. I think it's largely being done on a tide of anti-Englishness and will cause a counter-tide of anti-Scottishness among people here. I'm already seeing some of the signs. I don't see any good coming of it.
I think the Scots are gone. Going to take some getting used to, but there it is. They've enough oil to keep them going for a while.
I just think it's really bad idea and going to mean nothing but trouble. I think it's largely being done on a tide of anti-Englishness and will cause a counter-tide of anti-Scottishness among people here. I'm already seeing some of the signs. I don't see any good coming of it.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
The Independent Scotland
gmc;1363944 wrote: Britain is a generic term for the largest of the british isles in which you will find three nations, wales, england and scotland. You can't go from scotland to britain you are already there.
posted by bryn mawr
Unlike wales scotland was never conquered by the english, unlike wales we are not a colony. As a welshman you should know that the english defeated and conquered you. The act of union was between two sovereign nations and the English had to bribe our politicians. If we choose to undo it is our choice. Quite frankly the more the English come out with the kind of crap they have been and try and tell us we can't survive without them the more likely it is that scots will vote for independence.
I think it stems from fear, personally I have every confidence that england will be able to survive without the scots to prop them up and surely weaning them off their dependence on scottish oil will be a good thing.
I sit corrected and I'll rephrase my post, Whilst you are a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, who wants to. As an independent country you might find it's different.
posted by bryn mawr
Unlike wales scotland was never conquered by the english, unlike wales we are not a colony. As a welshman you should know that the english defeated and conquered you. The act of union was between two sovereign nations and the English had to bribe our politicians. If we choose to undo it is our choice. Quite frankly the more the English come out with the kind of crap they have been and try and tell us we can't survive without them the more likely it is that scots will vote for independence.
I think it stems from fear, personally I have every confidence that england will be able to survive without the scots to prop them up and surely weaning them off their dependence on scottish oil will be a good thing.
I sit corrected and I'll rephrase my post, Whilst you are a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, who wants to. As an independent country you might find it's different.
The Independent Scotland
fuzzywuzzy;1363974 wrote: Yes Yes I know the generic term for the Isles itself ...I just don't see Scotland Wales or Ireland being british ...England is England (brits) and the others are solely the others . It's like calling me British because we have a Union jack on our flag .
Also I couldn't use Scottish currency in england.
England is England and its natives are the English.
Great Britain is the island and consists of England Wales and Scotland.
The United Kingdom is Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its citizens are the British.
The Celts and Picts amongst us might choose to call themselves Scotish or Welsh or Irish (or even Cornish) but they are still British by nationality.
Also I couldn't use Scottish currency in england.
England is England and its natives are the English.
Great Britain is the island and consists of England Wales and Scotland.
The United Kingdom is Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its citizens are the British.
The Celts and Picts amongst us might choose to call themselves Scotish or Welsh or Irish (or even Cornish) but they are still British by nationality.
The Independent Scotland
Clodhopper;1364165 wrote: I'm just wondering what UK government functions are currently operated from Scotland. There must be some. They'd have to relocate.
There are damn few. The UK government have just closed two airbases (out of three), other wise this is where the UK "nuclear deterrent" is based (at Faslane) and the decommissioned nuclear subs are parked at Rosyth. Apart from Rosyth also being where they are assembling the next generation of RN aircraft carriers (for which they don't have any planes).
That's about it.
There are damn few. The UK government have just closed two airbases (out of three), other wise this is where the UK "nuclear deterrent" is based (at Faslane) and the decommissioned nuclear subs are parked at Rosyth. Apart from Rosyth also being where they are assembling the next generation of RN aircraft carriers (for which they don't have any planes).
That's about it.
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Independent Scotland
Chookie;1364261 wrote: There are damn few. The UK government have just closed two airbases (out of three), other wise this is where the UK "nuclear deterrent" is based (at Faslane) and the decommissioned nuclear subs are parked at Rosyth. Apart from Rosyth also being where they are assembling the next generation of RN aircraft carriers (for which they don't have any planes).
That's about it. I have been doing some reading on the UK sea beds and revenue the Crown Estate makes from their rental. If you re-claimed all these beds, I can see an Independent Scotland being viable due the enormous revenue they produce.
That's about it. I have been doing some reading on the UK sea beds and revenue the Crown Estate makes from their rental. If you re-claimed all these beds, I can see an Independent Scotland being viable due the enormous revenue they produce.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Independent Scotland
Clodhopper;1364165 wrote: I'm just wondering what UK government functions are currently operated from Scotland. There must be some. They'd have to relocate.
I think the Scots are gone. Going to take some getting used to, but there it is. They've enough oil to keep them going for a while.
I just think it's really bad idea and going to mean nothing but trouble. I think it's largely being done on a tide of anti-Englishness and will cause a counter-tide of anti-Scottishness among people here. I'm already seeing some of the signs. I don't see any good coming of it.
Cumbernauld has to be the biggie but I'm sure there are a few more along those lines.
I think the Scots are gone. Going to take some getting used to, but there it is. They've enough oil to keep them going for a while.
I just think it's really bad idea and going to mean nothing but trouble. I think it's largely being done on a tide of anti-Englishness and will cause a counter-tide of anti-Scottishness among people here. I'm already seeing some of the signs. I don't see any good coming of it.
Cumbernauld has to be the biggie but I'm sure there are a few more along those lines.
The Independent Scotland
oscar;1364275 wrote: I have been doing some reading on the UK sea beds and revenue the Crown Estate makes from their rental. If you re-claimed all these beds, I can see an Independent Scotland being viable due the enormous revenue they produce.
Under International law I'm sure that they would revert.
Under International law I'm sure that they would revert.
The Independent Scotland
Clodhopper;1364165 wrote: I'm just wondering what UK government functions are currently operated from Scotland. There must be some. They'd have to relocate.
I think the Scots are gone. Going to take some getting used to, but there it is. They've enough oil to keep them going for a while.
I just think it's really bad idea and going to mean nothing but trouble. I think it's largely being done on a tide of anti-Englishness and will cause a counter-tide of anti-Scottishness among people here. I'm already seeing some of the signs. I don't see any good coming of it.
It's not a tide of anti-englishness, stop reading the daily mail. it's on a tide of very real anger at thatcherism and the later policies of the tories and then new labour who have continued with the same kind of policies. Our induistrial landscape was almost wiped clean under thatcher and remember who she tried the poll tax on first. There were not enough tory MP;'s in scotland whose seats were at risk to matter but every single one of them was lost and have never been recovered. There was the farcical situation of there being no Tory MP with a scottish seat that could be scottish secretary. There is currently only one tory MP in the whole of scotland and he has his seat by the skin of his teeth. Labour are losing support in Scotland in protest at the shallow crooked self seeking inadequates they have become. Disbanding the scottish regiments annoyed people a lot more than they bargained for - they took scottish support for granted and have been given a kicking as a result. Nor they haven't a clue what to do.
In England people protest and switch votes for right wing parties like the BNP, in scotland we go to the left, If the scottish socialist party hadn't imploded you might very well have seen them succeed but left wing parties can never hold it together long enough to gain power they invariably get more interested in squabbling with each other. All that is left is the SNP who at least have the virtue of having been consistent in their approach. I don't trust alec salmiond but he is a consummate politician at least compared to the competition. If we got independence it would not necessarily be an SNP party that ends up in charge. We have a chance to get away from the patgetic government we have had to put up with over the last thirty years or so, england would do the same if they could but you are stuck with tory and labour rearranging the chairs as the ship of state goes down the toilet. Independence might not be better but it can't be any worse.
I think the Scots are gone. Going to take some getting used to, but there it is. They've enough oil to keep them going for a while.
I just think it's really bad idea and going to mean nothing but trouble. I think it's largely being done on a tide of anti-Englishness and will cause a counter-tide of anti-Scottishness among people here. I'm already seeing some of the signs. I don't see any good coming of it.
It's not a tide of anti-englishness, stop reading the daily mail. it's on a tide of very real anger at thatcherism and the later policies of the tories and then new labour who have continued with the same kind of policies. Our induistrial landscape was almost wiped clean under thatcher and remember who she tried the poll tax on first. There were not enough tory MP;'s in scotland whose seats were at risk to matter but every single one of them was lost and have never been recovered. There was the farcical situation of there being no Tory MP with a scottish seat that could be scottish secretary. There is currently only one tory MP in the whole of scotland and he has his seat by the skin of his teeth. Labour are losing support in Scotland in protest at the shallow crooked self seeking inadequates they have become. Disbanding the scottish regiments annoyed people a lot more than they bargained for - they took scottish support for granted and have been given a kicking as a result. Nor they haven't a clue what to do.
In England people protest and switch votes for right wing parties like the BNP, in scotland we go to the left, If the scottish socialist party hadn't imploded you might very well have seen them succeed but left wing parties can never hold it together long enough to gain power they invariably get more interested in squabbling with each other. All that is left is the SNP who at least have the virtue of having been consistent in their approach. I don't trust alec salmiond but he is a consummate politician at least compared to the competition. If we got independence it would not necessarily be an SNP party that ends up in charge. We have a chance to get away from the patgetic government we have had to put up with over the last thirty years or so, england would do the same if they could but you are stuck with tory and labour rearranging the chairs as the ship of state goes down the toilet. Independence might not be better but it can't be any worse.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
The Independent Scotland
I don't read the Mail. I haven't since I was a child and my Mum took it. The result was I became a Liberal Democrat since even as a child I could see it was talking oversimplified rubbish. Now, I don't read any paper regularly.
Whether it is a tide of real anti-Englishness or not, it is perceived as such down here. When people realise the Scots are pishing off and taking all the remaining oil with them they get angry. It is perceived as rejection of us, personally, and not surpisingly, people are reacting the way they tend to when rejected. People like you may differentiate between Thatcher and "the English", but most don't. You write as though while Thatcher was trashing Scottish Industry she left England untouched - she trashed English Industry the same way: Coal, steel, shipbuilding - all gone from the Midlands and North. Using the political theorising of the Dundee Monsters, I might add: Remember "There is no such thing as society"? That was Scottish Tory thinking, adopted by the Conservative Party as a whole.
So thank you Scotland, for giving Thatcher the political theory she used to trash England.
You may say that there is no widespread anti-Englishness in Scotland, but you are not believed. People know that Scotland supports "anyone against England" at sport, and rightly or wrongly, this is taken as the true Scottish attitude to the English since actions speak louder than words. Enough of us have lived in Scotland and SEEN the anti-Englishness for ourselves to KNOW it exists. How widespread is difficult to tell, since when you are on the receiving end it is easy to overestimate. But any Englishman who has been there for more than short holidays has his tales. Women too.
Scotland intends to grab the oil and run. That's the real nub of the matter. Goodbye and good luck.
Whether it is a tide of real anti-Englishness or not, it is perceived as such down here. When people realise the Scots are pishing off and taking all the remaining oil with them they get angry. It is perceived as rejection of us, personally, and not surpisingly, people are reacting the way they tend to when rejected. People like you may differentiate between Thatcher and "the English", but most don't. You write as though while Thatcher was trashing Scottish Industry she left England untouched - she trashed English Industry the same way: Coal, steel, shipbuilding - all gone from the Midlands and North. Using the political theorising of the Dundee Monsters, I might add: Remember "There is no such thing as society"? That was Scottish Tory thinking, adopted by the Conservative Party as a whole.
So thank you Scotland, for giving Thatcher the political theory she used to trash England.
You may say that there is no widespread anti-Englishness in Scotland, but you are not believed. People know that Scotland supports "anyone against England" at sport, and rightly or wrongly, this is taken as the true Scottish attitude to the English since actions speak louder than words. Enough of us have lived in Scotland and SEEN the anti-Englishness for ourselves to KNOW it exists. How widespread is difficult to tell, since when you are on the receiving end it is easy to overestimate. But any Englishman who has been there for more than short holidays has his tales. Women too.
Scotland intends to grab the oil and run. That's the real nub of the matter. Goodbye and good luck.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
The Independent Scotland
There are damn few. The UK government have just closed two airbases (out of three), other wise this is where the UK "nuclear deterrent" is based (at Faslane) and the decommissioned nuclear subs are parked at Rosyth. Apart from Rosyth also being where they are assembling the next generation of RN aircraft carriers (for which they don't have any planes).
I was thinking of Civil Service type functions. I haven't checked, but I thought some at least of the Tax Offices were in Scotland. There has been a push (of varying strengths at various times according to the political will) to move government functions out of London and the ones I can think of off the top of my head are the DVLA in Cardiff and the British Council in Manchester.
You will have, of course, the oil revenues to pay to reopen these bases and staff them with the Scottish Regiments and presumably the air force you will want to create.
I was thinking of Civil Service type functions. I haven't checked, but I thought some at least of the Tax Offices were in Scotland. There has been a push (of varying strengths at various times according to the political will) to move government functions out of London and the ones I can think of off the top of my head are the DVLA in Cardiff and the British Council in Manchester.
You will have, of course, the oil revenues to pay to reopen these bases and staff them with the Scottish Regiments and presumably the air force you will want to create.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
The Independent Scotland
Clodhopper;1364455 wrote: I don't read the Mail. I haven't since I was a child and my Mum took it. The result was I became a Liberal Democrat since even as a child I could see it was talking oversimplified rubbish. Now, I don't read any paper regularly.
Whether it is a tide of real anti-Englishness or not, it is perceived as such down here. When people realise the Scots are pishing off and taking all the remaining oil with them they get angry. It is perceived as rejection of us, personally, and not surpisingly, people are reacting the way they tend to when rejected. People like you may differentiate between Thatcher and "the English", but most don't. You write as though while Thatcher was trashing Scottish Industry she left England untouched - she trashed English Industry the same way: Coal, steel, shipbuilding - all gone from the Midlands and North. Using the political theorising of the Dundee Monsters, I might add: Remember "There is no such thing as society"? That was Scottish Tory thinking, adopted by the Conservative Party as a whole.
So thank you Scotland, for giving Thatcher the political theory she used to trash England.
You may say that there is no widespread anti-Englishness in Scotland, but you are not believed. People know that Scotland supports "anyone against England" at sport, and rightly or wrongly, this is taken as the true Scottish attitude to the English since actions speak louder than words. Enough of us have lived in Scotland and SEEN the anti-Englishness for ourselves to KNOW it exists. How widespread is difficult to tell, since when you are on the receiving end it is easy to overestimate. But any Englishman who has been there for more than short holidays has his tales. Women too.
Scotland intends to grab the oil and run. That's the real nub of the matter. Goodbye and good luck.
Rather than using the oil revenues to invest in the economy, uograde the infrastructure it was used to finance tax cuts and pay unemployment benefit for all those who lost their jobs meanwhile all the state assets were sold off to maggies cronies - good news british gas make record profits what a pity it's all going to france and german shareholders. We are now paying a very heavy price for thatcher's right wing economic policies and those of new labour. In a very real; sense you can trace the worlds economic malaise back to the eighties and the taking up of monetarist policies as if it was a new religion. England has done very well out of the union we have very much been the junior partner and always viewed as such despite the very real contribution to the success of that union - see industrial revolution history of. Right now a disproportionate number of scots soldiers are being killed in Afghanistan for the simple reason that scots have always formed a disproportionate percentage of the armed forces. Most scots aren't taken in by the rhetoric about he war against terrorism. In short there are a whiole range iof issues that have got us really pissed off and making independence a more and more attractive notion.
Scotland intends to grab the oil and run. That's the real nub of the matter. Goodbye and good luck
I am ambivalent about voting for independence but the more I get crap like this the more attractive it becomes To be blunt you bastards have squandered it in pointless wars and unnecessary tax cuts to line the profits of the rich. Were it not for the oil you would be happy to see us independent and no longer feeding on the subsidy tit which is the image the press like to portray of the scots. Fat subsidy junkies supported by the english taxpayer. The oil is in our waters and is has been of little benefit to us because of the union, we've suffered greatly at the hands of political parties that do not have much support in scotland but who run economic policies that favour the south east of england (remember eddie geirge and his statement that he didn't care about unemployment in the north east so long as it was OK in London)
I've tried being reasonable and present a logical case for you but you just don't want to listen preferring your own prejudices. If that's the way you feel up yours and you're on your own from now on.
Whether it is a tide of real anti-Englishness or not, it is perceived as such down here. When people realise the Scots are pishing off and taking all the remaining oil with them they get angry. It is perceived as rejection of us, personally, and not surpisingly, people are reacting the way they tend to when rejected. People like you may differentiate between Thatcher and "the English", but most don't. You write as though while Thatcher was trashing Scottish Industry she left England untouched - she trashed English Industry the same way: Coal, steel, shipbuilding - all gone from the Midlands and North. Using the political theorising of the Dundee Monsters, I might add: Remember "There is no such thing as society"? That was Scottish Tory thinking, adopted by the Conservative Party as a whole.
So thank you Scotland, for giving Thatcher the political theory she used to trash England.
You may say that there is no widespread anti-Englishness in Scotland, but you are not believed. People know that Scotland supports "anyone against England" at sport, and rightly or wrongly, this is taken as the true Scottish attitude to the English since actions speak louder than words. Enough of us have lived in Scotland and SEEN the anti-Englishness for ourselves to KNOW it exists. How widespread is difficult to tell, since when you are on the receiving end it is easy to overestimate. But any Englishman who has been there for more than short holidays has his tales. Women too.
Scotland intends to grab the oil and run. That's the real nub of the matter. Goodbye and good luck.
Rather than using the oil revenues to invest in the economy, uograde the infrastructure it was used to finance tax cuts and pay unemployment benefit for all those who lost their jobs meanwhile all the state assets were sold off to maggies cronies - good news british gas make record profits what a pity it's all going to france and german shareholders. We are now paying a very heavy price for thatcher's right wing economic policies and those of new labour. In a very real; sense you can trace the worlds economic malaise back to the eighties and the taking up of monetarist policies as if it was a new religion. England has done very well out of the union we have very much been the junior partner and always viewed as such despite the very real contribution to the success of that union - see industrial revolution history of. Right now a disproportionate number of scots soldiers are being killed in Afghanistan for the simple reason that scots have always formed a disproportionate percentage of the armed forces. Most scots aren't taken in by the rhetoric about he war against terrorism. In short there are a whiole range iof issues that have got us really pissed off and making independence a more and more attractive notion.
Scotland intends to grab the oil and run. That's the real nub of the matter. Goodbye and good luck
I am ambivalent about voting for independence but the more I get crap like this the more attractive it becomes To be blunt you bastards have squandered it in pointless wars and unnecessary tax cuts to line the profits of the rich. Were it not for the oil you would be happy to see us independent and no longer feeding on the subsidy tit which is the image the press like to portray of the scots. Fat subsidy junkies supported by the english taxpayer. The oil is in our waters and is has been of little benefit to us because of the union, we've suffered greatly at the hands of political parties that do not have much support in scotland but who run economic policies that favour the south east of england (remember eddie geirge and his statement that he didn't care about unemployment in the north east so long as it was OK in London)
I've tried being reasonable and present a logical case for you but you just don't want to listen preferring your own prejudices. If that's the way you feel up yours and you're on your own from now on.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
The Independent Scotland
I don't think anything I've said makes the slightest difference to what is going to happen. This has been bubbling up for a long time and I suspect future historians will see the discovery of North Sea oil in the mid C20th as the point at which it became serious. All I'm telling you is the likely reaction down here, with the complete lack of concern that goes with being utterly certain as to the result of an independence vote. The only thing that ever stopped you was the English tit, and North sea oil solves that problem.
There's a very good chance the whole issue is going to get swallowed up in the fact the whole world appears to be going to Hell in a handbasket at present, and people both sides of the border will have too many issues to give a toss about something as minor as the fact we are now completely separate nations with different agendas.
What on earth do you intend to do with three military airbases and a half dozen Scottish regiments? You moan like crazy about them being cut, so I assume an independent Scotland will reinstate them, though for what purpose I don't know.
Gods. The one bit of the Union we really ought to be rid of is the one stuck to us in an utterly limpet-like fashion. Since my prejudices are that having separate states in this small island is a bloody stupid idea and has caused nothing but trouble, and that Scots are infinitely capable of cutting off their noses to spite their faces (aided by the ongoing break-up of my Scottish friends' marriage) I will stick with them.
edit: It feels to me that you have been looking for an excuse, any excuse, to vote for independence. It is deep in your heart. I understand that. And sympathise. Even if I still think its a bad idea.
There's a very good chance the whole issue is going to get swallowed up in the fact the whole world appears to be going to Hell in a handbasket at present, and people both sides of the border will have too many issues to give a toss about something as minor as the fact we are now completely separate nations with different agendas.
What on earth do you intend to do with three military airbases and a half dozen Scottish regiments? You moan like crazy about them being cut, so I assume an independent Scotland will reinstate them, though for what purpose I don't know.
Gods. The one bit of the Union we really ought to be rid of is the one stuck to us in an utterly limpet-like fashion. Since my prejudices are that having separate states in this small island is a bloody stupid idea and has caused nothing but trouble, and that Scots are infinitely capable of cutting off their noses to spite their faces (aided by the ongoing break-up of my Scottish friends' marriage) I will stick with them.
edit: It feels to me that you have been looking for an excuse, any excuse, to vote for independence. It is deep in your heart. I understand that. And sympathise. Even if I still think its a bad idea.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
The Independent Scotland
Clodhopper;1364464 wrote: I don't think anything I've said makes the slightest difference to what is going to happen. This has been bubbling up for a long time and I suspect future historians will see the discovery of North Sea oil in the mid C20th as the point at which it became serious. All I'm telling you is the likely reaction down here, with the complete lack of concern that goes with being utterly certain as to the result of an independence vote. The only thing that ever stopped you was the English tit, and North sea oil solves that problem.
There's a very good chance the whole issue is going to get swallowed up in the fact the whole world appears to be going to Hell in a handbasket at present, and people both sides of the border will have too many issues to give a toss about something as minor as the fact we are now completely separate nations with different agendas.
What on earth do you intend to do with three military airbases and a half dozen Scottish regiments? You moan like crazy about them being cut, so I assume an independent Scotland will reinstate them, though for what purpose I don't know.
Gods. The one bit of the Union we really ought to be rid of is the one stuck to us in an utterly limpet-like fashion. Since my prejudices are that having separate states in this small island is a bloody stupid idea and has caused nothing but trouble, and that Scots are infinitely capable of cutting off their noses to spite their faces (aided by the ongoing break-up of my Scottish friends' marriage) I will stick with them.
There's a lot more to it than you seem to think, yes the discovery of oil was an important factor but it's by no means the only one. Even without the oil the myth about us being supported by England was just that a myth. In terms of tax revenues we have paid our way and paid a large part in shaping the modern world - try looking at a list of scientific innovations over the last two hundred years for instance.
It ties in with what happened in England, and especially the north of england since the seventies with whole communities being destroyed and cities changing beyond recognition. There's a very real sense if dis-attachment in the north of England as well in scotland there happens to be a focal point to latch on to. We had a prime minister that is in record as stating there was no such thing as community and that industry was niot necessary and we could all live off service industries and set out a political agenda where greed and short term profit was all that mattered, anything that had no immediate economic return was stopped as a waste of money, even now we have culture where education is only valued if the exam results are there and there is a systematic attack under way overturning the very notion that access to education is a fundamental right and essential to the well being of the country as a whole, now it's only available for the rich like it was in the 19th century and the rest can go to scumbag academy. I'm just waiting for them to bring back the poorhouses and the distinction between the deserving and undeserving poor. Now we have david cameron and his public schoolboy fag calling for charities to pay for the services that for generation have been provided as of right and seen as vital for our society as a whole. You call you self a liberal democrat, the liberal democracy that used to make britain distinct are gradually being destroyed in favour of as right wing insane monetarist agenda that has more in common with the emperors new clothes than any real substance.
Cameron and clegg don't have a mandate in scotland, if there is a referendum and they choose to ignore it or try and prevent it taking place the one certainty you can be sure of is the break up of the union. Most scots are actually indifferent to the issue until someone tells than they can't be trusted with a referendum.
Scots are infinitely capable of cutting off their noses to spite their faces
If by that you mean we can be bloody minded you have that dead to rights.
What relevance does your friends divorce have?
There's a very good chance the whole issue is going to get swallowed up in the fact the whole world appears to be going to Hell in a handbasket at present, and people both sides of the border will have too many issues to give a toss about something as minor as the fact we are now completely separate nations with different agendas.
What on earth do you intend to do with three military airbases and a half dozen Scottish regiments? You moan like crazy about them being cut, so I assume an independent Scotland will reinstate them, though for what purpose I don't know.
Gods. The one bit of the Union we really ought to be rid of is the one stuck to us in an utterly limpet-like fashion. Since my prejudices are that having separate states in this small island is a bloody stupid idea and has caused nothing but trouble, and that Scots are infinitely capable of cutting off their noses to spite their faces (aided by the ongoing break-up of my Scottish friends' marriage) I will stick with them.
There's a lot more to it than you seem to think, yes the discovery of oil was an important factor but it's by no means the only one. Even without the oil the myth about us being supported by England was just that a myth. In terms of tax revenues we have paid our way and paid a large part in shaping the modern world - try looking at a list of scientific innovations over the last two hundred years for instance.
It ties in with what happened in England, and especially the north of england since the seventies with whole communities being destroyed and cities changing beyond recognition. There's a very real sense if dis-attachment in the north of England as well in scotland there happens to be a focal point to latch on to. We had a prime minister that is in record as stating there was no such thing as community and that industry was niot necessary and we could all live off service industries and set out a political agenda where greed and short term profit was all that mattered, anything that had no immediate economic return was stopped as a waste of money, even now we have culture where education is only valued if the exam results are there and there is a systematic attack under way overturning the very notion that access to education is a fundamental right and essential to the well being of the country as a whole, now it's only available for the rich like it was in the 19th century and the rest can go to scumbag academy. I'm just waiting for them to bring back the poorhouses and the distinction between the deserving and undeserving poor. Now we have david cameron and his public schoolboy fag calling for charities to pay for the services that for generation have been provided as of right and seen as vital for our society as a whole. You call you self a liberal democrat, the liberal democracy that used to make britain distinct are gradually being destroyed in favour of as right wing insane monetarist agenda that has more in common with the emperors new clothes than any real substance.
Cameron and clegg don't have a mandate in scotland, if there is a referendum and they choose to ignore it or try and prevent it taking place the one certainty you can be sure of is the break up of the union. Most scots are actually indifferent to the issue until someone tells than they can't be trusted with a referendum.
Scots are infinitely capable of cutting off their noses to spite their faces
If by that you mean we can be bloody minded you have that dead to rights.
What relevance does your friends divorce have?
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
The Independent Scotland
Yeah. Sorry about the vehemence. Written before the second cup of tea after a weekend short of sleep through camping.
If by that you mean we can be bloody minded you have that dead to rights.
What relevance does your friends divorce have?
That we (their friends) are having an object lesson in Scottish bloodymindedness played out in front of us. I'm not saying we can't be bloodyminded, it's just that you do it so much more stylishly. Three people including an autistic 7 year old and a bloke in a mobile chair all calling a spade a bloody shovel loudly at the same time, and all being right has its deeply, darkly tragicomic side. Another friends's lad just came within 24 hours of a colostomy and the new neighbour who moved in a month ago had a nervous breakdown and her dog died. It's been a busy month and frankly, you gotta laugh at something. And before you think I'm callous, half of us have helped him move and the other half helped Jan with the lad. Get back on the rest later. Other friend dropping in from visit planning surgery...
If by that you mean we can be bloody minded you have that dead to rights.
What relevance does your friends divorce have?
That we (their friends) are having an object lesson in Scottish bloodymindedness played out in front of us. I'm not saying we can't be bloodyminded, it's just that you do it so much more stylishly. Three people including an autistic 7 year old and a bloke in a mobile chair all calling a spade a bloody shovel loudly at the same time, and all being right has its deeply, darkly tragicomic side. Another friends's lad just came within 24 hours of a colostomy and the new neighbour who moved in a month ago had a nervous breakdown and her dog died. It's been a busy month and frankly, you gotta laugh at something. And before you think I'm callous, half of us have helped him move and the other half helped Jan with the lad. Get back on the rest later. Other friend dropping in from visit planning surgery...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
The Independent Scotland
It got worse. The other friends whose son had ulcerative colitis and just avoided the colostomy (at least for now) had a bad day and it all got a bit much for her and she's broken down badly as well. Badly as in full volume screaming in the street and no memory of it. The friend dropping in needs surgery on his gums as a result of the side effects or interactions of medicines needed for his diabetes and non-Hodgsons Lymphoma (diagnosed about 18 months ago). So not that serious, thankfully.
So I suspect a lot of what I've said reflects my own increasing state of frazzledness over the last six weeks. The majority of my close friends have been having truly hellish times at the same time. I've never known anything like it. Apologies.
Spies sent North of the Border have reported that only about 25% of the people support independence. The main reason for not doing so is apparently Glasgow.
I do think the devolved situation we have at present is closer to the right solution than full independence. I do think there is a good case for more local control over many issues simply because they can be done better at local level. How Scotland and the North of England regenerate post Thatcher is probably best left to those who live there and know the area, for example. Fairly standard Lib Dem policy.
So I suspect a lot of what I've said reflects my own increasing state of frazzledness over the last six weeks. The majority of my close friends have been having truly hellish times at the same time. I've never known anything like it. Apologies.
Spies sent North of the Border have reported that only about 25% of the people support independence. The main reason for not doing so is apparently Glasgow.
I do think the devolved situation we have at present is closer to the right solution than full independence. I do think there is a good case for more local control over many issues simply because they can be done better at local level. How Scotland and the North of England regenerate post Thatcher is probably best left to those who live there and know the area, for example. Fairly standard Lib Dem policy.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
The Independent Scotland
Clodhopper;1364876 wrote: It got worse. The other friends whose son had ulcerative colitis and just avoided the colostomy (at least for now) had a bad day and it all got a bit much for her and she's broken down badly as well. Badly as in full volume screaming in the street and no memory of it. The friend dropping in needs surgery on his gums as a result of the side effects or interactions of medicines needed for his diabetes and non-Hodgsons Lymphoma (diagnosed about 18 months ago). So not that serious, thankfully.
So I suspect a lot of what I've said reflects my own increasing state of frazzledness over the last six weeks. The majority of my close friends have been having truly hellish times at the same time. I've never known anything like it. Apologies.
Spies sent North of the Border have reported that only about 25% of the people support independence. The main reason for not doing so is apparently Glasgow.
I do think the devolved situation we have at present is closer to the right solution than full independence. I do think there is a good case for more local control over many issues simply because they can be done better at local level. How Scotland and the North of England regenerate post Thatcher is probably best left to those who live there and know the area, for example. Fairly standard Lib Dem policy.
Sadly the lib dems have committed suicide as a political party, not so much by joining the coalition but by so clearly letting the tories have things their own way and not sticking to their principles. The PR referendum was too soon and a huge disaster for british politics. The university fees issue I think lost them the middle class vote for good. The did the same kind of deal up here with labour and paid a heavy price for not sticking to their principles.
So I suspect a lot of what I've said reflects my own increasing state of frazzledness over the last six weeks. The majority of my close friends have been having truly hellish times at the same time. I've never known anything like it. Apologies.
Spies sent North of the Border have reported that only about 25% of the people support independence. The main reason for not doing so is apparently Glasgow.
I do think the devolved situation we have at present is closer to the right solution than full independence. I do think there is a good case for more local control over many issues simply because they can be done better at local level. How Scotland and the North of England regenerate post Thatcher is probably best left to those who live there and know the area, for example. Fairly standard Lib Dem policy.
Sadly the lib dems have committed suicide as a political party, not so much by joining the coalition but by so clearly letting the tories have things their own way and not sticking to their principles. The PR referendum was too soon and a huge disaster for british politics. The university fees issue I think lost them the middle class vote for good. The did the same kind of deal up here with labour and paid a heavy price for not sticking to their principles.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
The Independent Scotland
Sadly the lib dems have committed suicide as a political party, not so much by joining the coalition but by so clearly letting the tories have things their own way and not sticking to their principles. The PR referendum was too soon and a huge disaster for british politics. The university fees issue I think lost them the middle class vote for good. The did the same kind of deal up here with labour and paid a heavy price for not sticking to their principles.
Replied on other thread. Relevant bit copied across:
And dealing with gmc's point that the Lib Dems have betrayed their principles: Absolute rubbish.
A major Lib Dem principle is COMPROMISE. There are issues the Lib Dems cannot move on because of the Tories, and there are areas the Tories cannot act on their principles because of the Lib Dems. The result is we have a functioning and effective government. I'm sorry it's not doing everything the way you want it.
On University fees - it is quite clear the Labour idea of getting as many to Uni as poss, whether they deserved it or not, has been a disaster. Too many are going, to do meaningless courses, and end up with a degree that means eff all. Lecturers have become teachers, not researchers. It's going to take years - decades - to sort out.
Replied on other thread. Relevant bit copied across:
And dealing with gmc's point that the Lib Dems have betrayed their principles: Absolute rubbish.
A major Lib Dem principle is COMPROMISE. There are issues the Lib Dems cannot move on because of the Tories, and there are areas the Tories cannot act on their principles because of the Lib Dems. The result is we have a functioning and effective government. I'm sorry it's not doing everything the way you want it.
On University fees - it is quite clear the Labour idea of getting as many to Uni as poss, whether they deserved it or not, has been a disaster. Too many are going, to do meaningless courses, and end up with a degree that means eff all. Lecturers have become teachers, not researchers. It's going to take years - decades - to sort out.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."