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A 40 year old Democratic Congresswoman from Arizona has been shot point blank in the head. Must have been one of those nasty illegal Mexicans.

Gabrielle Giffords Shot: Congresswoman Shot In Arizona (LIVE UPDATES)

latest is it was a anti-government teen

Interesting, I see the local sheriff lays part of the blame on right wing radio and TV commentators for inciting violence.

Pray for the victims, their families, and the family of the crazy guy. This could get really ugly if some other news doesn't come along to distract the media.

One thing is for certain so far today, and that is that the media, the pundits, the politicians and so forth are making excuses and white-washing this, as they always do, by claiming the kid is "deranged". How convenient. They are all feverishly working to humanize the victims and dehumanize the kid.



The left is out there singing Amazing Grace and the right is canceling congress for a week. All the posturing seems pretentious and pretty sickening to me. Brit Hume even sounded sensible this morning.

Hate in - hate out

Violence in - violence out

Incoherence in - incoherence out

Monkey see - Monkey do

The trick is to quit vilifying any position that is not yours. Reasonable people can disagree.

Unreasonable people feel that if they shout loudest and longest, that means they are right. Unfortunately, they usually end up at the extreme position of making moral and intellectual judgments against those that dare to have a different viewpoint. And once someone feels entitled to make extreme judgment calls on a person because of a position they may take on an issue, you aren't too far from them deciding that they are justified in making the world a better place.

Die hard liberals and die hard conservatives both need to be sedated, IMO.

This is not about politics, and as long as we believe it is, we are fooling ourselves. This is about an over populated, over medicated, over moderated, overly confusing and complicated life. This is about cannibalism.

Die hard liberals and die hard conservatives both need to be sedated, IMO.


You're right on the money. I wouldn't go with sedation though. Stalin and his people did some very nasty things for some very good reasons.

This is not about politics, and as long as we believe it is, we are fooling ourselves. This is about an over populated, over medicated, over moderated, overly confusing and complicated life. This is about cannibalism.


Interesting. How so? You may be onto something but it's very vague.

The kid, not a teen, BTW, appears to be frustrated and out of touch with reality.

Just the type that political extremists on both side of the scale like to use to do the dirty work.

Fortunately, in this country, they just give them guns, not bombs.

I agree LarsMac this was an out of touch troubled man on a downward spiral. I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't diagnosed with schizophrenia. If not this event it would have been another event, as witnesses stated he was on a mission.

How is this incident any different than a Middle-East suicide bombing? It's terrorism plain and simple.

Funny thing is, I clicked past Glenn Beck the other night out of boredom and for a couple of minutes watched in horrified fascination as he accused "Liberals" of running a "revolution" in this country and made hysteric cries for a "REVOLUTION" of his own. I thought at the time, "That's dangerous and could probably start some crap."

When I saw today's news, I thought, "Well...there you go. That's exactly what I thought might happen." Two things occurred to me right after that,

1. It's usually ultra right-wing extremists that do things like this (See: Timothy McViegh / The Oklahoma Bombing and the Unabomber) because they have the guns and the fanaticism.

2. The older guy pointing the kid. The kid's just the weapon, the older guy is the shooter.

While you're jerking your knees, don't forget to blame him for the rumors of heightened terrorist threats this weekend.

I think it's interesting that we refer to a young man who shoots 10 people as 'deranged' and one who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands as 'Mr. President' just prior to re-electing him.

Ahso!;1350129 wrote: I think it's interesting that we refer to a young man who shoots 10 people as 'deranged' and one who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands as 'Mr. President' just prior to re-electing him.uh, yeh, that's an identical context.



Ahso!;1350080 wrote: This is not about politics, and as long as we believe it is, we are fooling ourselves. This is about an over populated, over medicated, over moderated, overly confusing and complicated life. This is about cannibalism.
Now here's something maybe we can sink our teeth into. Can you flesh this out a bit?

Saint_;1350116 wrote: How is this incident any different than a Middle-East suicide bombing? It's terrorism plain and simple.

Funny thing is, I clicked past Glenn Beck the other night out of boredom and for a couple of minutes watched in horrified fascination as he accused "Liberals" of running a "revolution" in this country and made hysteric cries for a "REVOLUTION" of his own. I thought at the time, "That's dangerous and could probably start some crap."

When I saw today's news, I thought, "Well...there you go. That's exactly what I thought might happen." Two things occurred to me right after that,

1. It's usually ultra right-wing extremists that do things like this (See: Timothy McViegh / The Oklahoma Bombing and the Unabomber) because they have the guns and the fanaticism.

2. The older guy pointing the kid. The kid's just the weapon, the older guy is the shooter.


Maybe in America not worldwide, the IRA, PLO, Red Brigade ETA are all left wing terrorists.

But in the states you had and in the sixties you had You had the weatherman and the black panthers but maybe what's different is with the weathermen and black panthers you didn't have the not so tacit encouragement from mainstrean political parties.

YouTube - Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Talks Palin Cross Hairs

Mussolini had his blackshirts, hitler the brownshirts maybe your equivalent is just getting itself going wrapped in red white and blue.

posted by ahso

This is not about politics, and as long as we believe it is, we are fooling ourselves. This is about an over populated, over medicated, over moderated, overly confusing and complicated life. This is about cannibalism.






You mean the rich feed off the poor?

Saint_;1350116 wrote: How is this incident any different than a Middle-East suicide bombing? It's terrorism plain and simple.

Funny thing is, I clicked past Glenn Beck the other night out of boredom and for a couple of minutes watched in horrified fascination as he accused "Liberals" of running a "revolution" in this country and made hysteric cries for a "REVOLUTION" of his own. I thought at the time, "That's dangerous and could probably start some crap."

When I saw today's news, I thought, "Well...there you go. That's exactly what I thought might happen." Two things occurred to me right after that,

1. It's usually ultra right-wing extremists that do things like this (See: Timothy McViegh / The Oklahoma Bombing and the Unabomber) because they have the guns and the fanaticism.

2. The older guy pointing the kid. The kid's just the weapon, the older guy is the shooter.


Wrong on all accounts. Kid is a nihilist and leftist whacko (oxymoron - I know) as is she. Keeping it all in the family, guys?

His favorite books? Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf.



One veteran Democratic operative, who blames overheated rhetoric for the shooting, said President Barack Obama should carefully but forcefully do what his predecessor did.

“They need to deftly pin this on the tea partiers,” said the Democrat. “Just like the Clinton White House deftly pinned the Oklahoma City bombing on the militia and anti-government people.”



Read more: Violence and politics merge - Jonathan Martin and Ben Smith and Alexander Burns - POLITICO.com

Maybe he was reacting to this hate speech?

** Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”

** Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”

** Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

** Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back ...Twice As Hard”

** Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“

** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”

** Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”

** Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”

** Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

Am I missing something here. All events our organization has require permits to gather and local law enforcement notified. You can't just show up and set up, it has to be totally scheduled in advance. Why would it be any different for government officials?

One Cop car sitting in the parking lot would have kept this from happening most likely, or at least this sick man wouldn't have gotten so many shots off.

BaghdadBob;1350182 wrote: Wrong on all accounts. Kid is a nihilist and leftist whacko (oxymoron - I know) as is she. Keeping it all in the family, guys?




His views were anti-government (as they were conducting "mind control"), pro-gold standard, very religious, and paranoid about immigrants. That's not leftist.

CARLA;1350187 wrote: Am I missing something here. All events our organization has require permits to gather and local law enforcement notified. You can't just show up and set up, it has to be totally scheduled in advance. Why would it be any different for government officials?

One Cop car sitting in the parking lot would have kept this from happening most likely, or at least this sick man wouldn't have gotten so many shots off.


I don't agree with that. With all the security in place (which was a lot more than a cop sitting in a car) Sirhan Sirhan still managed to get his shots off and kill Bobby Kennedy. I've been to functions where governors and senators were making speeches and the amount of security is astounding, but still assassinations happen.

yaaarrrgg;1350207 wrote: His views were anti-government (as they were conducting "mind control"), pro-gold standard, very religious, and paranoid about immigrants. That's not leftist.


his classmate Caitie Parker wrote of Lougher, "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal and oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

I guess I'll take the word of the ppl that were close to him over yours. Sorry.

Sure they do but just maybe it would stop someone one time, or allow the cop to stop the shooter from killing so many innocent people.

BaghdadBob;1350224 wrote: his classmate Caitie Parker wrote of Lougher, "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal and oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

I guess I'll take the word of the ppl that were close to him over yours. Sorry.


I saw the same thing on the news that yaarg posted as stated by investigators in too his personal posting on the internet and in his room. As he was a loner and most people that age really don't care about others they don't know around them I doubt I will take word of one of his classmates over an investagator. Though Goverment "mind cotrol" I wouldn't count as leftist or right sorry, but I just dont see the connections to the right or left that is unless you do believe the government has mind control.

Here he is first court appearance today:

Attached files

CARLA;1350258 wrote: Here he is first court appearance today:


definitely government mind control/

littleCJelkton;1350256 wrote: I saw the same thing on the news that yaarg posted as stated by investigators in too his personal posting on the internet and in his room. As he was a loner and most people that age really don't care about others they don't know around them I doubt I will take word of one of his classmates over an investagator. Though Goverment "mind cotrol" I wouldn't count as leftist or right sorry, but I just dont see the connections to the right or left that is unless you do believe the government has mind control.Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if I was the sanest one here ... that's a scarey thought!

however, his classmate Caitie Parker wrote of Lougher, "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal and oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

Loughner also listed on his YouTube channel among his favorite books Karl Marx's "The Communist Manifesto" and Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf," casting further doubt on the notion that he was an angered tea-party type.


[img]http://www.runemasterstud

By what perverted stretch of the imagination would either of those books make him a liberal? On the other hand if you want guidelines on how to take over a democracy from the inside using fear and intimidation to create the right conditions to overthrow a democracy they're as good a start as any. The rise of the nazis are a classic case in point, people forget, Germany was a democracy with universal suffrage.

I take none of you have actually read either of them or you wouldn't believe such crap. I would have thought They would be part of any modern history course, you can't study 20th century history without wanting to read them for yourself.

BaghdadBob;1350224 wrote: his classmate Caitie Parker wrote of Lougher, "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal and oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

I guess I'll take the word of the ppl that were close to him over yours. Sorry.


So? I'm talking about his online postings. I'd sooner trust what he says to what others say about him. The fact is he was a bit unbalanced and it doesn't help that the extreme right wing likes to dehumanize and portray as evil anyone they disagree with. Like putting gun sights on a politician, and telling voters not to retreat, but reload.

I may be wrong about him being "very religious" but he seems a bit obsessed with religion on some level. Most likely he doesn't have a coherent political position. He's not a leftist.

Accountable;1350343 wrote: Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if I was the sanest one here ... that's a scarey thought!


No your not, we are all insane actually Loughner is probably more sane than everybody. Thats his problem he is the only one that has found out the proof of government mind control unfortunately they used it on him. ;p

yaaarrrgg;1350371 wrote: So? I'm talking about his online postings. I'd sooner trust what he says to what others say about him. The fact is he was a bit unbalanced and it doesn't help that the extreme right wing likes to dehumanize and portray as evil anyone they disagree with. Like putting gun sights on a politician, and telling voters not to retreat, but reload.

I may be wrong about him being "very religious" but he seems a bit obsessed with religion on some level. Most likely he doesn't have a coherent political position. He's not a leftist.


I'm talking about his online postings. You mean his love of the leftist treatises, The Communist Manifesto, and Mein Kampf?

The fact is he was a bit unbalanced Seems like a normal leftist to me...if there is such a thing. There's nothing to indicate he was an unstable lib.

...the extreme right wing likes to dehumanize and portray as evil anyone they disagree with That's a trait of the left. Examples would be what Hitler did to the Jews and that donks are the party of slavery, the KKK, abortion, and eugenics.



Most likely he doesn't have a coherent political position. He's not a leftist
He's nihilist leftist. Not hard to figure out with your eyes open.

BaghdadBob;1350389 wrote: You mean his love of the leftist treatises, The Communist Manifesto, and Mein Kampf?




If you actually knew anything, Hitler viewed the Jews and commies both as enemies.

Then again, you are one of the guys who thinks it's a smart idea to allow the mentally ill unfettered access to semi-automatic weapons.

yaaarrrgg;1350404 wrote:

Then again, you are one of the guys who thinks it's a smart idea to allow the mentally ill unfettered access to semi-automatic weapons.


It appears as tho it's the political hack donk sherifff that has no problem with "the mentally ill unfettered access to semi-automatic weapons".

BaghdadBob;1350408 wrote: It appears as tho it's the political hack donk sherifff that has no problem with "the mentally ill unfettered access to semi-automatic weapons".


Hey have you checked out he new adult political site? The girl Hack donks a guys boehner whle he Riences her priebus.

yaaarrrgg;1350371 wrote: Most likely he doesn't have a coherent political position.Finally! I frequent two chat forums and this is the first time I've seen anyone but me actually point this out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

An excellent column on the subject:

Michael Gerson - Is Arizona shooting an empty search for meaning?

This does not have a crude political application. Some liberal critics of polarization have accused their ideological opponents, on the thinnest of circumstantial evidence, of complicity in murder. This is an extreme and ironic symptom of polarization. But outrage on the right should be tempered by the recognition that many conservatives would be capable of hasty judgments under different circumstances. Suppose an unstable leftist loner, with some peripheral ties to ACORN, had shot a Republican congressman. Americans never use the actions of an individual to judge the guilt of a group - unless it is the Tea Party, or immigrants, or conservatives, or liberals, or Muslims or fundamentalists, or anyone else who is really, really disliked.

Accountable;1350450 wrote: Finally! I frequent two chat forums and this is the first time I've seen anyone but me actually point this out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

An excellent column on the subject:

Michael Gerson - Is Arizona shooting an empty search for meaning?

This does not have a crude political application. Some liberal critics of polarization have accused their ideological opponents, on the thinnest of circumstantial evidence, of complicity in murder. This is an extreme and ironic symptom of polarization. But outrage on the right should be tempered by the recognition that many conservatives would be capable of hasty judgments under different circumstances. Suppose an unstable leftist loner, with some peripheral ties to ACORN, had shot a Republican congressman. Americans never use the actions of an individual to judge the guilt of a group - unless it is the Tea Party, or immigrants, or conservatives, or liberals, or Muslims or fundamentalists, or anyone else who is really, really disliked.


Wow! You're into confirmation bias. Whoda thunk it. (don't bother me with your silliness. research it yourself)

BaghdadBob;1350455 wrote: Wow! You're into confirmation bias. Whoda thunk it. (don't bother me with your silliness. research it yourself)


Sillyness is just so silly though, try it you may find it quite laughable.

Example of sillyness; Accountable maybe into confirmation bias where as you are into Bias confirmation.

I think there's a few different issues here.

One is: Did the shooter have coherent political ideas and was he acting on this? Based on his notion of mind control and the importance of English grammar, I don't think he is coherent.

A second is: if he was mentally ill, could he have been influenced by hearing political rhetoric that implied violence. I've been hearing a lot of this violent rhetoric, and it's been at a fever pitch for the last couple years.

And thirdly: Should he have been able to legally purchase a gun, and if not, what should the law change to? He had no criminal record at the time of purchase.

BaghdadBob;1350455 wrote: Wow! You're into confirmation bias. Whoda thunk it. (don't bother me with your silliness. research it yourself)Do you have a specific argument, or are you going to just sit there sounding like a bigot accusing others of racism?

Accountable;1350555 wrote: Do you have a specific argument, or are you going to just sit there sounding like a bigot accusing others of racism?


That is the jist of it where as I am being seriously silly, Baghdad likes to participate in silly seriousness.

There is a certain number of people who cannot tolerate the double standards and mixed messages society delivers, and there is a certain percentage of those people who will resort to violent means to deal with their frustrations. If we are going to be a society that allows firearms then occasional killing of individuals is the consequence of that decision.

Agreed.