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A good book by Seth G Jones. Americas war in Afghanistan.

This book will make you want to puke, it will also explain how an Afghan peasant lives in the stone age while Afghan politicians use US aircraft and military facilities to fly 52 million in hard cash in his luggage out of the country for his personal multi million dollar condo in Dubai.

There's other things in there, none good. We'll never win unless this stops.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/world ... r=1&emc=na

Win what? What's the definition of winning in Afghanistan?

What the US wants to do now is create a country stable enough to govern itself and not be a haven to the likes of Al-Q and the Taliban, and to be an obedient vassel state in the Great Game.

The problem is it seems we cannot stop Al-Q because we are attacking places like Iraq when Al-Qs resources come from places throughout the Muslim world (mainly Saudi Arabia and the other oil rich emirates) and even the western world. Remember the stink about looking into the Saudi bank accounts a few years ago? To see where money is going? Why such a fuss?

The Taliban seem to be a different story. They were the one thing that brought stability to that country in the 90s. Harsh as their version of Sharia law was, it was law and order all the same. For a people who had been at war for generations it was good enough for their time. Now all the Taliban want to do is basically what we want to do with one additional goal. Bring about stability and the rule of law and rid the country of foreigners.

I'm not going to lecture on this AC, I think you should read the book and come to your own conclusions. I think you would find it very interesting. It puts the whole mess in a good perspective, like what Carl Sagans Cosmos did for astronomy.

I'm pretty sure you & I are at least close to agreement on this one, Scrat. I'm just curious what we're calling a win. If we can't establish that then I can't think of a reason to remain there. Frankly, considering the remote control technology we have now, I can't think of a reason we have American troops there even if we have a reason to fight.

I think our definition of a "win" is to build an Afghanistan along our ideals of a modern stable society. There is also a caveat on this, the society and government must be obedient to us.

I don't think we will ever do this.

The reason to remain there? The western worlds ways, our consumption, our greed. Oil makes things move. If you read this book you will see just how powerful Osama Bin Laden was, how powerful we in the west made him. I never really paid much attention to the hype about him but now I see him differently. He had the potential to be another Napoleon, another Saladin. When Saddam invaded Kuwait OBL would have been capable of raising a large, well trained army. He offered to help throw out the Iraqis, the Saudis wouldn't let him in the country and called us. They were scared s**tless of him.

Anyway the reason to be there is the status quo in the ME, stability. We can't let these OBLs have their way. I also don't think America and the western peoples are willing to change our ways either. Are you going to trade in your car for a horse or ride the bus? Hell, our societies are designed wrong to begin with.

We're not leaving because we can't unlatch from the oil tit. If we do there will be others who step in too. China specifically. Russia supports us for a reason, if we lose she will suffer. Her southern regions will become much more volatile. If we win the same will happen at our behest so Russia is slowly building a large much more versatile army capable of dealing with it. Russia will become much more authoritarian, much more closed in the next 20 or 30 years. She has no choice.

I don't know what China will do or what they want from this. I do know that they know their future lies with Russia in large part.

Frankly, considering the remote control technology we have now


Our tech is very over rated. Our design philosophy is outdated and impractical. it's too expensive and frankly not as good as advertised. Yeah the crew of an M1-Abrams can fir 20 rounds a minute. Great. Just remember, the life of that barrel is 500 rounds. Then you take it to a shop miles from the battle zone and remove the whole gun to change the barrel. The Russian T-90 crews can only fire about 12 rounds a minute and the barrel is only good for 300 rounds. The difference is when the barrel needs to be replaced a truck pulls up to the tank (where ever it may be) and 4 guys change the barrel in as little as 20 minutes.

With those drones you have to look at the number of flights, losses (seemingly to even bad weather) and what they've accomplished. Yeah they have taken out some things but what's the cost? If we do take out a guy on the ground another just replaces him. For all of the missions these things have flown why are we not getting more? Why are we still fighting? It's been a decade, where are we? How many times have we won battles with technology and lost wars?

Look up the latest on Russias scraps in the Caucasus, It's boots on the ground with a much simpler high tech than we have. Sniper detection systems that use sound. They listen for the report of the rifle and give the direction with a simple metal arrow that points to the source. It's the size of a coffee can!! No computer screens, just a metal arrow. Apparently it never breaks and it's always accurate. It doesn't react to echos either. it is battery powered and can be removed from the vehicle, it's entirely self contained, bullet proof and all weather. They're cheap to build you can put them in a tree for days. Their new thermal sights won't let you see the web gear and number of rifle rounds of the guy trying to hide from you but you will see the heat blob and be able to tell if it's the local mutt or a human. They're coming out with new infantry armor too as good as what we have but for the arms and legs.

We need to take their approach, more boots on the ground. More blood all around. Russia has payed a price but now largely the Caucasus is in a stable peaceful situation, you can live there.

God, I hate imperialism.

It's going to break our back.

List of United States military bases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Accountable;1345942 wrote: God, I hate imperialism.


It's destroying america even if you prefer to pretend it isn't imperialism. Empires have always been first and foremost economic imperialism. All that's changed is the heid bummer.

The web of deceit and denial of all involved has to be addressed. Even if we win in Afghanistan, it won't be over.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/06/world ... nes&emc=a2