Is God Real?

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Post by magentaflame »

Mickiel, do you have any other hobbies or interests youd like to see new threads arise from? Just asking around to guage some interests in new threads and put some life back into the forum.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Post by Mickiel »

magentaflame;1516843 wrote: Mickiel, do you have any other hobbies or interests youd like to see new threads arise from? Just asking around to guage some interests in new threads and put some life back into the forum.


Oh sure, I like these topics;

the New found interest in comic books and super hero movies;

The new found respect women are finding in exposing selfish sexual predators;

Almost anything in the medical field of cancer research;

The booming " Weed Industry", going up in pleasure smoke!!!

Just to name a few, I just never get around to starting them.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1516845 wrote: Oh sure, I like these topics;

the New found interest in comic books and super hero movies;

The new found respect women are finding in exposing selfish sexual predators;

Almost anything in the medical field of cancer research;

The booming " Weed Industry", going up in pleasure smoke!!!

Just to name a few, I just never get around to starting them.




I forgot to mention " Tree Climbing", one of my favorite hobby's and interest. I love climbing trees.
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Post by magentaflame »

Actually they're not bad topics at all....i think youd be surprised how popular theyd be....just thinking the tree climbing one. Exellent! I have a real beauty in my front garden. Got some time on your hands now or next day or two? If not i could start thrm for you?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Post by Mickiel »

magentaflame;1516852 wrote: Actually they're not bad topics at all....i think youd be surprised how popular theyd be....just thinking the tree climbing one. Exellent! I have a real beauty in my front garden. Got some time on your hands now or next day or two? If not i could start thrm for you?


Oh yes, go right ahead; I'll pitch in.
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Post by Fuzzy »

Mickiel;1516842 wrote: I can't see God either, but I can see stars that are millions of miles away, with my own eyes.

Look man, that did not create itself. I can't see the ability to see millions of miles away, evolving straight from the weakness of nothing, after forming a human body from years of nothing, and topping it off with a head that just so happens to be smart enough to create its own blood and veins and bones and muscles.

Naw man, I can't get to a world devoid of a God. Its just TOO MUCH here man!

Hey, How could I hold my own with a mind like yours, if I did not have one myself. To you your interpretations, and to me mine. But I kind of like how you think ;; sometimes.


Your interpretations are illogical. Because of what we don't know or understand we create a cause/creator/god.

Before we knew what causes thunder and lightning, a god made it.

Before we knew what causes hurricanes, a god made it.

The list goes on.

We are down to one god now.

If or when we finally understand what made you and the stars, your god will be on the unemployment list, poor bastard.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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Post by Mickiel »

Fuzzy;1516863 wrote: Your interpretations are illogical. Because of what we don't know or understand we create a cause/creator/god.

Before we knew what causes thunder and lightning, a god made it.

Before we knew what causes hurricanes, a god made it.

The list goes on.

We are down to one god now.

If or when we finally understand what made you and the stars, your god will be on the unemployment list, poor bastard.




I have a 236 page thread trying to explain God; can you explain how you think we exist? You are good at using so many pages why you think I am wrong, how about giving us some pages revealing why you think we got here and why you think you are right? Maybe a few pages, I don't want to stress you.
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Post by sugarpuff »

Fuzzy;1516863 wrote: Your interpretations are illogical. Because of what we don't know or understand we create a cause/creator/god.

Before we knew what causes thunder and lightning, a god made it.

Before we knew what causes hurricanes, a god made it.

The list goes on.

We are down to one god now.

If or when we finally understand what made you and the stars, your god will be on the unemployment list, poor bastard.


God on the unemployment line ?????? I don't think so ....

He has the best selling novel (The Bible )

He is also the best architect there is ... he designed the whole universe ...
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Post by LarsMac »

sugarpuff;1516874 wrote: God on the unemployment line ?????? I don't think so ....

He has the best selling novel (The Bible )

He is also the best architect there is ... he designed the whole universe ...


I suspect rather that the universe designed Him.
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Post by sugarpuff »

LarsMac;1516889 wrote: I suspect rather that the universe designed Him.


That is a possibility. lol
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Post by Mickiel »

sugarpuff;1516890 wrote: That is a possibility. lol




I certainly would like to know how God got here. That would be quite something.
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Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1516891 wrote: I certainly would like to know how God got here. That would be quite something.You're admitting "here" had to exist before God? Is God not the creator of all things? Or at least not the creator of "here"?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1516892 wrote: You're admitting "here" had to exist before God? Is God not the creator of all things? Or at least not the creator of "here"?




I don't know how God exist in his eternal world, and I don't know if things existed before God; I have seen no evidence of things existing before him in scripture; I am admitting that I don't know! I am not on that level. I don't have your hunger to prove things existed before God; Is it possible? The scriptures say " All things are possible."

So a person normally will interpret that however it suits their belief or un belief. The bible hints that God created " Parts of himself", but it does not go into his origin, it hints that he has no beginning , which just throws our understanding into absolute zero; how can we understand a being that had no birth?

I know I can't. But that scripture, " All things are possible", does leave room for some things which seem impossible with a Being like God. I don't know, I can only guess.
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Post by Fuzzy »

Mickiel;1516868 wrote: I have a 236 page thread trying to explain God; can you explain how you think we exist? You are good at using so many pages why you think I am wrong, how about giving us some pages revealing why you think we got here and why you think you are right? Maybe a few pages, I don't want to stress you.


I didn't say I think I'm right. I am saying it is illogical to explain stuff we don't understand by saying a god did it. I don't know how or why we got here, nor do scientists know it.

Does that prove god? Do 236 pages prove anything? Do all the pages in the bible prove anything? I don't think so.

Why don't you get even sillier and ask me to prove that god does not exist?
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1516894 wrote: I don't know how God exist in his eternal world, and I don't know if things existed before God; I have seen no evidence of things existing before him in scripture; I am admitting that I don't know! I am not on that level. I don't have your hunger to prove things existed before God; Is it possible? The scriptures say " All things are possible."

So a person normally will interpret that however it suits their belief or un belief. The bible hints that God created " Parts of himself", but it does not go into his origin, it hints that he has no beginning , which just throws our understanding into absolute zero; how can we understand a being that had no birth?

I know I can't. But that scripture, " All things are possible", does leave room for some things which seem impossible with a Being like God. I don't know, I can only guess.What it reveals is what all your threads also reveal, and that is that they are posts of an agnostic at best. You'll deny that again, but that is exactly what all your posts say by your attempts to understand (construct) your own God.

For example, the christian bible is often referred to as life's instruction book (or manual). Instruction manuals are not open to interpretation, they are intended to be followed. IOW, if an instruction manual for a lawn mower says a cord must be pulled on in order to start it, that doesn't mean talking to it will start it. Instruction manuals are intended to teach "how".

The bible you read: 1) Establishes who God is (make and tech data of lawn mower), 2) what God's intended plan is (lawn mower's purpose is to mow lawns or mulch with the alternative blades) 3) how to respect and please God (use of and care for lawn mower) 4) consequences of everlasting torture if the instructions are not followed (ungroomed lawn should the lawn mower quit working or you neglect using it).

What you've been doing is wondering why you have a lawn mower in the first place because you don't know what its intended purpose is. You sit in front of the thing and gaze at it trying to imagine what to do with it. It's there because someone in your past left it to you. Since you have no use for the lawn mower, you wonder what alternative use it might have instead of admitting it serves no purpose for you.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by sugarpuff »

Mickiel;1516891 wrote: I certainly would like to know how God got here. That would be quite something.


Well I could ask you the same question !!!!! How did you get here ? Will you be remembered ??

This question has been going on for centuries ... If Gods not real ...

why isn't he forgotten about ...

Seems to me only important people are remembered ...

Yet God who is non existing is a yearly topics in almost every house hold ...(maybe not my God but a God )
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Post by Ahso! »

sugarpuff;1516909 wrote: Well I could ask you the same question !!!!! How did you get here ? Will you be remembered ??

This question has been going on for centuries ... If Gods not real ...

why isn't he forgotten about ...

Seems to me only important people are remembered ...

Yet God who is non existing is a yearly topics in almost every house hold ...(maybe not my God but a God )The same reason Hansel and Gretel are still remembered by lots of people - it's a story handed down generationally. The God-story has been slowly fading over the past few decades, which is evident by polls showing an increase in "nones" in comparison to established religious affiliation numbers. Hence, the reason for all the overt religious pushing going on today. Religious people are attempting to re-establish the story and is one reason we have all these religious trolls floating about.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1516892 wrote: You're admitting "here" had to exist before God? Is God not the creator of all things? Or at least not the creator of "here"?


Or, both have co-existed for a very long time.
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Post by Ted »

Lol
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Post by Ted »

Since God, if you so believe, is spirit and He/She/It is not a being that can be analyzed by any scientific method. In fact "God" if you so believe is an experiential reality. That is not subject to science.
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1516921 wrote: Or, both have co-existed for a very long time.




I would not dismiss this, I mean its possible that God has always been " Around certain things that are as eternal as he is." I don't know, but this speculation I think has more merit than the Christians would give it. Its like a man and his shadow, they have both a relationship in reality and out of reality. I would look more into God co-existing with certain things and give that merit or as we can speculate, give it your best shot!

And if your best is trash, then throw it away! Hey, keep looking and searching and just do your best to give an answer.
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Post by Mickiel »

In Salvation we have a new song that we all will sing; psalms 96:1-2 , it says sing new song to ALL of the earth and declare his name to All the earth and " Show forth his salvation from day to day." And I enjoy doing that " It says from day to day", Declare his glory even to the heathen. Hey its fun, its refreshing, its a joy doing that!
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Post by Fuzzy »

Ahso!;1516912 wrote: The same reason Hansel and Gretel are still remembered by lots of people - it's a story handed down generationally. The God-story has been slowly fading over the past few decades, which is evident by polls showing an increase in "nones" in comparison to established religious affiliation numbers. Hence, the reason for all the overt religious pushing going on today. Religious people are attempting to re-establish the story and is one reason we have all these religious trolls floating about.


A down to earth view of looking at it. Makes sense to me.:yh_clap
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
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Post by magentaflame »

The problem there is "the religious" know its only a small number. So the more religion becomes inadequate the more they believe its them who are the chosen ones and will be 'saved'.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Post by magentaflame »

But then you have other religions who believe their message is spreading and becominh stronger.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1516921 wrote: Or, both have co-existed for a very long time.Getting deep on me again, I see.

You just make yours up as you go too, don't you?

Yeah, I know - you're living the question(s), right? No need to commit to anything you say or offer any proof of how any of it fits into the reality we all experience.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1516939 wrote: I would not dismiss this,Of course not, it's a nonsensical apologetic comment intended to promote stupidity...I mean mystery
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1516957 wrote: Of course not, it's a nonsensical apologetic comment intended to enable stupidity.




One man's comment, he may have seen an end to things; that ending may be the beginning for another mans reasoning.

You have strength Ahso, your obviously not stupid; you can see the weak point in other things ;

other than yourself!
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Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1516958 wrote: One man's comment, he may have seen an end to things; that ending may be the beginning for another mans reasoning.

You have strength Ahso, your obviously not stupid; you can see the weak point in other things ;

other than yourself!Waxing philosophical lately, eh?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1516956 wrote: Getting deep on me again, I see.

You just make yours up as you go too, don't you?


Are you saying that you don't have random thoughts now and again. How boring for you.

Ahso!;1516956 wrote: Yeah, I know - you're living the question(s), right? No need to commit to anything you say or offer any proof of how any of it fits into the reality we all experience.


An idea, or an opinion is just that. One may have a random thought without the need to defend it.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1516962 wrote: Are you saying that you don't have random thoughts now and again. How boring for you.How would you know if my thought process is boring since you've apparently never gone through any length of time without random thoughts? Always making it about me because you've nothing to substantiate. Just random thoughts flying from your fingertips and onto the monitor (or phone/tablet).



LarsMac;1516962 wrote: An idea, or an opinion is just that. One may have a random thought without the need to defend it.ETA: Remember this?

LarsMac;1516961 wrote:

However, should I have any beliefs that I wish to hold unchallenged, I would keep them to myself.
People have thoughts all the time, including me. I'm happy to discuss them provided they come with background, reason, and an interest in understanding them in reality.

When you post thoughts like the one above there's nothing to discuss because it's all you've said. You're not attempting to investigate it, understand it, evaluate it. You just throw it out there like you're trying to disrupt reasonable thought processes. Throwing a monkey wrench. I suspect that's because there is no way of substantiating these random thoughts. It's a futile exercise.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1516963 wrote: How would you know if my thought process is boring since you've apparently never gone through any length of time without random thoughts? Always making it about me because you've nothing to substantiate. Just random thoughts flying from your fingertips and onto the monitor (or phone/tablet).

ETA: Remember this?

People have thoughts all the time, including me. I'm happy to discuss them provided they come with background, reason, and an interest in understanding them in reality.

When you post thoughts like the one above there's nothing to discuss because it's all you've said. You're not attempting to investigate it, understand it, evaluate it. You just throw it out there like you're trying to disrupt reasonable thought processes. Throwing a monkey wrench. I suspect that's because there is no way of substantiating these random thoughts. It's a futile exercise.


Umm, you're the one that tried to turn this into a personal thing, with this little quip:

Ahso!;1516956 wrote: Getting deep on me again, I see.

You just make yours up as you go too, don't you?

Yeah, I know - you're living the question(s), right? No need to commit to anything you say or offer any proof of how any of it fits into the reality we all experience.


Besides. my comment was actually fairly logical. Scientist seem to think that the Universe is probably eternal. Believers also think that God is eternal. It therefor makes sense that they might coexist.

No need for you to be such a prick about it.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1516964 wrote: Umm, you're the one that tried to turn this into a personal thing, with this little quip:





Besides. my comment was actually fairly logical. Scientist seem to think that the Universe is probably eternal. Believers also think that God is eternal. It therefor makes sense that they might coexist.

No need for you to be such a prick about it.You really leave me not much of a choice. Honesty's all I've got for you. I could ignore those sorts of posts like most members do but I choose not to do that. Instead, I challenge some of them.

Conflating scientific evaluation from real observation with "believers" and their myths is about as bad as it can get. That's exactly what Pahu does in his fanciful Evolution thread.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

magentaflame;1516952 wrote: The problem there is "the religious" know its only a small number. So the more religion becomes inadequate the more they believe its them who are the chosen ones and will be 'saved'.


Religion is always personal. Most people seem to need a defined religious foundation to make sense of their lives. Most simply cling to whatever was the religion of their family and community. Many find problems with that, as that foundation fails to support their personal experience, so they go out and explore the rest of the world to find answers. Some find no answers that are suitable and simply reject all philosophies and find a personal foundation on which to build their life.

Others find some other external force that offers support when things get weird. It may be completely imaginary, but if it works for them, who should care?
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1516966 wrote: Others find some other external force that offers support when things get weird. It may be completely imaginary, but if it works for them, who should care?Nobody usually does care perhaps until it's discussed or preached in public or within any community setting where others may be influenced. At this juncture, other people tend to make judgments and offer up their own opinions and experiences or what have you. Finding a friendly, agreeable and sympathetic ear to bend privately could be the way to go.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1516965 wrote: You really leave me not much of a choice. Honesty's all I've got for you. I could ignore those sorts of posts like most members do but I choose not to do that. Instead, I challenge some of them.


You always have choices. That is one of the marvels of the Universe. "you leave me no (or not much) choice" has always been one of the most monstrous of cop-outs in human history.

It's saying that it's all your fault that I'm such a prick. Pilate used that logic when he sentenced Jesus to Death. Truman used it when he gave the nod for Hiroshima.



Ahso!;1516965 wrote: Conflating scientific evaluation from real observation with "believers" and their myths is about as bad as it can get...


Any time you are discussing such things as the age of the universe and the beginning of God, you are hanging out in a place with little "Scientific evaluation" and "real observation" to rely upon. We are left with imagination and cogitation.

Ahso!;1516965 wrote: That's exactly what Pahu does in his fanciful Evolution thread.
Oops! back to the see-saw.
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Post by Ahso! »

I already acknowledged it was a choice. Do you have a point about the thread or are you going to continue to complain about my tone? My tone is quite intentional.

For your information, the only disrespect I see in all these religious threads is disrespect for knowledge. A belief is not knowledge and to try to advance it as such is illogical. There might be a knowledge of where the belief originated or from what source it could be found. But belief itself is not knowledge. Knowledge is derived from fact and reality. The source of the belief is fact as is where it originated from, but not the belief.

Speaking as someone with very limited knowledge concerning cosmology, my understanding is that the universe had a beginning, we know that because it is expanding. Because we might not be able to pinpoint the exact point at which the universe came into existence is no reason to conflate it with the idea of a God.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1516971 wrote: I already acknowledged it was a choice. Do you have a point about the thread or are you going to continue to complain about my tone? My tone is quite intentional.


I am sure it was. But, I am done with that.

Ahso!;1516971 wrote: For your information, the only disrespect I see in all these religious threads is disrespect for knowledge. A belief is not knowledge and to try to advance it as such is illogical. There might be a knowledge of where the belief originated or from what source it could be found. But belief itself is not knowledge. Knowledge is derived from fact and reality. The source of the belief is fact as is where it originated from, but not the belief.


Religion is about belief. To separate belief from a discussion about religion seems pointless.

And much knowledge has actually been developed through discussions about religion and belief.

Ahso!;1516971 wrote: Speaking as someone with very limited knowledge concerning cosmology, my understanding is that the universe had a beginning, we know that because it is expanding. Because we might not be able to pinpoint the exact point at which the universe came into existence is no reason to conflate it with the idea of a God.


Isn't "understanding" sort of like "belief"? You can have an understanding, and you can believe something is true because of your understanding of information that you have been exposed to. However, the information you have may be incomplete, or may actually be unproven.

Yes, data indicates that the universe is expanding. However, does that mean that at some point it did not exist? Was the BIG Bang a "beginning" of the universe? Did it expand from "nothing" ?

So, probability is that the Universe existed before the Big Bang, or there would have been nothing to "bang."



Most physicists seem to believe (AH! there is that word, again) that there was something before the Big Bang, but as yet, we have little or no visibility into what was before.

Belief is not so useless, after all, now, is it?

In fact almost all Science probably originated as belief. Newton believed that there was some force acting on bodies that caused the behavior we witnessed. He set about discovering what that was, and proving what he believed to be true.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1516971 wrote: I already acknowledged it was a choice. Do you have a point about the thread or are you going to continue to complain about my tone? My tone is quite intentional.

For your information, the only disrespect I see in all these religious threads is disrespect for knowledge. A belief is not knowledge and to try to advance it as such is illogical. There might be a knowledge of where the belief originated or from what source it could be found. But belief itself is not knowledge. Knowledge is derived from fact and reality. The source of the belief is fact as is where it originated from, but not the belief.

Speaking as someone with very limited knowledge concerning cosmology, my understanding is that the universe had a beginning, we know that because it is expanding. Because we might not be able to pinpoint the exact point at which the universe came into existence is no reason to conflate it with the idea of a God.


I agree that belief is not knowledge. Not in my view. Belief can get spiritual or emotional, facts do not; they are just what they are, facts. Straight up, neither cold or hot, facts are they just what they are.
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1516976 wrote: I am sure it was. But, I am done with that.



Religion is about belief. To separate belief from a discussion about religion seems pointless. Quote , I agree.



Quote;

And much knowledge has actually been developed through discussions about religion and belief.

.


I agree that knowledge can develop from belief, but they are not the same thing. One can give birth to the other- either way we place them; but one is not the other.
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Post by Ahso! »

"Hypothesize," I think would be the proper term instead of "believe". There is a difference. Even for me, as I've educated myself the little bit that I have, my outlook on this subject has changed pretty drastically. I rarely have a use for any variant of "believe". Perhaps, at most, I might say that in taking someone's word on something, but even that could be pushing it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1516983 wrote: I agree that belief is not knowledge. Not in my view. Belief can get spiritual or emotional, facts do not; they are just what they are, facts. Straight up, neither cold or hot, facts are they just what they are.


Well, I must offer up that facts are often subject to belief. People can look at a given fact and draw completely different conclusions from them. Then, of course, many people can believe certain bits of information are actually facts, when they are no more than a perception based upon their personal belief.

The universe can prove far more subjective than we like to think.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1516985 wrote: "Hypothesize," I think would be the proper term instead of "believe". There is a difference. Even for me, as I've educated myself the little bit that I have, my outlook on this subject has changed pretty drastically. I rarely have a use for any variant of "believe". Perhaps, at most, I might say that in taking someone's word on something, but even that could be pushing it.


Do you know how many times Darwin used the phrase "I believe" in On the origin of species by means of natural selection ?

Believe and belief are valid words in scientific documentation
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Post by LarsMac »

Perhaps "perceive" may be a more appropriate term to be used in some of these discussion?
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1516976 wrote:

Religion is about belief. To separate belief from a discussion about religion seems pointless.Not always. Discussions could take place on the tenets themselves, or ceremonial aspects, or principles.

LarsMac;1516976 wrote: And much knowledge has actually been developed through discussions about religion and belief.Outside the realm of harm or good, or the mentality involved, I can't think of anything. Can you?



LarsMac;1516976 wrote: Isn't "understanding" sort of like "belief"? You can have an understanding, and you can believe something is true because of your understanding of information that you have been exposed to. However, the information you have may be incomplete, or may actually be unproven.Knowing something and believing something are at odds as I see it.

LarsMac;1516976 wrote: Yes, data indicates that the universe is expanding. However, does that mean that at some point it did not exist? Was the BIG Bang a "beginning" of the universe? Did it expand from "nothing" ?As I said, I don't know much about this subject, however, I'm not about to go asserting anything under the guise of "belief" so that I can pontificate or pretend I do. Guessing or hypothesizing and then setting out to do the work involved by those who are trained in the discipline is where I'd get my information.

LarsMac;1516976 wrote: So, probability is that the Universe existed before the Big Bang, or there would have been nothing to "bang."See above. I know that when I've read what I have on The Big Ban, it was difficult to wrap my head around.



LarsMac;1516976 wrote: Most physicists seem to believe (AH! there is that word, again) that there was something before the Big Bang, but as yet, we have little or no visibility into what was before.addressed this im my previous post.

LarsMac;1516976 wrote: Belief is not so useless, after all, now, is it?You haven't convinced me yet.

LarsMac;1516976 wrote: In fact almost all Science probably originated as belief. Newton believed that there was some force acting on bodies that caused the behavior we witnessed. He set about discovering what that was, and proving what he believed to be true.Hypothisized. Newton might have believed he could know if he could figure certain things out, but that's an acceptable use of the word for me.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1516986 wrote: Well, I must offer up that facts are often subject to belief. People can look at a given fact and draw completely different conclusions from them. Then, of course, many people can believe certain bits of information are actually facts, when they are no more than a perception based upon their personal belief.

The universe can prove far more subjective than we like to think.You're splitting hairs. You're being literal when it suits you and metaphoric when that suits you. You're also being apologetic when it suits you.

Equivocation!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Is God Real?

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1516983 wrote: I agree that belief is not knowledge. Not in my view. Belief can get spiritual or emotional, facts do not; they are just what they are, facts. Straight up, neither cold or hot, facts are they just what they are.I agree with everything here except the "emotion" reference. Emotional conditions are facts, spiritual conditions are not. Spirituality can derive from emotion and usually does from what I understand. It's a sort of salve that becomes habitual because there was a calming found in it. Chance are that the calming would occur eventually anyway.

It's like finding a happy place in the house or eating chocolate to sooth the emotion.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Is God Real?

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1516988 wrote: Perhaps "perceive" may be a more appropriate term to be used in some of these discussion?"[P]erceive" is better in many instances.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1516991 wrote: You're splitting hairs. You're being literal when it suits you and metaphoric when that suits you. You're also being apologetic when it suits you.

Equivocation!


[sigh] whatever
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Post by LarsMac »

LarsMac;1516986 wrote: Well, I must offer up that facts are often subject to belief. People can look at a given fact and draw completely different conclusions from them. Then, of course, many people can believe certain bits of information are actually facts, when they are no more than a perception based upon their personal belief.

The universe can prove far more subjective than we like to think.


Ahso!;1516991 wrote: You're splitting hairs. You're being literal when it suits you and metaphoric when that suits you. You're also being apologetic when it suits you.




I am just saying that all these word games are kind of pointless, since almost everyone, yourself included, chooses their own set of facts, and definitions, and we must sort through the whole mess to get to the point.

While you claim to worship fact an logic, you are as driven by your own perception as the rest of us.



Get over it.
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