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I read yesterday where a woman was fired from her job because she refused to wear "makeup"! She was a food server, in a sports bar for "5" years doing a good job, and never wore makeup.

The place was sold, and when the "new owner" told her he wanted to spruce up the place a little, starting with him wanting her to wear makeup, she refused. She was the only woman server there that did not wear makeup.



When you think about it, "he" invested "his" money in the place, & was looking to make a go of it, under his rules, to what he thought was right.



SO WAS HE RIGHT TO FIRE HER?

Yes, I agree with him Cars. This is his personal venture and he owns this bar. He wants a certain look for his patrons, and he makes the rules.



If you don't like the rules then you need to look for employment elsewhere.

This is not a large corporation where you have a union to protect your rights. This is a personally run sports bar and owned by an individual.

No i dont think so ,,, and he would'nt be able to get away with it here:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Kathy Ellen;1193101 wrote: Yes, I agree with him Cars. This is his personal venture and he owns this bar. He wants a certainly look for his patrons and he makes the rules.



If you don't like the rules then you need to look for employment elsewhere.


I agree also Kathy!

I was once hired for a job.....only if I cut my hair short.

kazalala;1193102 wrote: No i dont think so ,,, and he would'nt be able to get away with it here:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl My god, if that happened here, the human rights lawyers would have bankrupted him in the courts by now under her human rights laws and act of freedom.

oscar;1193123 wrote: My god, if that happened here, the human rights lawyers would have bankrupted him in the courts by now under her human rights laws and act of freedom.


:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Kathy Ellen;1193127 wrote: :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl Even worse if she was Muslim as well. Double pay out under racism laws.

oscar;1193123 wrote: My god, if that happened here, the human rights lawyers would have bankrupted him in the courts by now under her human rights laws and act of freedom.
Actually, when you come to think of it, isn't there really two sides to the act of freedom? For "him" to be able to do what wants to do, in "his own establishment", to try to "enhance" it's prosperitity? All the other servers conformed to the rules. Rules are rules, they should apply to all.

oscar;1193128 wrote: Even worse if she was Muslim as well. Double pay out under racism laws.


oy vey...I can't even imagine:(

cars;1193130 wrote: Actually, when you come to think of it, isn't there really two sides to the act of freedom? For "him" to be able to do what wants to do, in "his own establishment", to try to "enhance" it's prosperitity? All the other servers conformed to the rules. Rules are rules, they should apply to all. We have had all kinds of nonsense here even a flight attendent who was threatened with the sack for wearing a small cross around her neck. I don't agree with the owner myself. To me, it would be different if she was refusing to wear safety gear or uniform but make-up is a personal choice that woman only should be the decision maker. What's next? Is he going to sack some-one because they are in his opinion, too ugly, for the job? Or too short for the job?

oscar;1193141 wrote: We have had all kinds of nonsense here even a flight attendent who was threatened with the sack for wearing a small cross around her neck. I don't agree with the owner myself. To me, it would be different if she was refusing to wear safety gear or uniform but make-up is a personal choice that woman only should be the decision maker. What's next? Is he going to sack some-one because they are in his opinion, too ugly, for the job? Or too short for the job?




In my heart, I really do agree with you Oscar.I wouldn't want to be told how to dress. But, it is his bar, and he does make the rules. Legally he can fire people for not following the rules.

Ooooooohhhh, this is sad that it's the only reason why she got fired even though she's been faithful to this place for quite a while now..... but I agree with the others here. He's the owner so he gets to make the rules, whether they make sense or not.

I once got fired from a bank because I refused to be the manager's girlfriend ( he was married ).

I think its a bit sexist reallyhes hiring and firing based on looks:( her having make up on isnt helping her to do her job any better,,, and surely people dont go in there and say oh no i dont want to be served by her! she has no make up on!!:-3:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

It's probably the owners right, even though I don't agree with it. I was once hired for a job and told to show up wearing a suit. I didn't show up.

kazalala;1193155 wrote: I think its a bit sexist reallyhes hiring and firing based on looks:( her having make up on isnt helping her to do her job any better,,, and surely people dont go in there and say oh no i dont want to be served by her! she has no make up on!!:-3:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl


:yh_rotfl...It's a sports bar and think the men there like to see makeup on women...

hoppy;1193156 wrote: It's probably the owners right, even though I don't agree with it. I was once hired for a job and told to show up wearing a suit. I didn't show up.


I don't blame you Hoppy. We have to dress nicely and appropriately for our job...casual....and we can wear jeans on Friday.



If I had to get dressed up with dress suits and heals everyday, I would quit.

Kathy Ellen;1193160 wrote: :yh_rotfl...It's a sports bar and think the men there like to see makeup on women...


yep sexist:rolleyes::yh_rotfland also reallywhat is that saying?? a woman has to have make up on to look good? or even a woman has to look good to be able to work in a sports bar? so as to satisfy the men? wow sounds a bit dated there:yh_rotfl to be honest here in a sports bar there would probably be as many women as men:-3:yh_rotfl

If I was given the choice of wear makeup or be fired, I'd come in the next day with makeup on. Clown makeup.:sneaky:

Unfortunately, a history of good job performance is not the only qualification for a customer service job. You do have to maintain a pleasant appearance. And.......a new owner does have the right to choose who will work for him/her.

That said, I believe the choice of wearing make-up as well as how much, is a personal decision. Also if a person chooses to color their hair or not.

In this case with the way this economy is, the lady in question must make a decision. Do I change? Do I just find another job that allows me to not wear make-up? Tough decsion.

Attached files

Peg;1193168 wrote: If I was given the choice of wear makeup or be fired, I'd come in the next day with makeup on. Clown makeup.:sneaky:


I like your style;):D

kazalala;1193166 wrote: yep sexist:rolleyes::yh_rotfland also reallywhat is that saying?? a woman has to have make up on to look good? or even a woman has to look good to be able to work in a sports bar? so as to satisfy the men? wow sounds a bit dated there:yh_rotfl to be honest here in a sports bar there would probably be as many women as men:-3:yh_rotfl


It's funny though Kaz.....Men in my life and work really don't like a lot of makeup on women and don't understand why we use it. Even men in FG have questioned why women wear makeup....



But, when you go to a sports bar in some areas here, not my pub though, the women who work there have to dress sexy and wear makeup to enhance their look for the establishment.

Kathy Ellen;1193160 wrote: :yh_rotfl...It's a sports bar and think the men there like to see makeup on women...


Have I been transported backwards here, how utterly sexist!!

No, he should not be allowed to fire her purely because she does not conform to his pathetic ideals.

Maybe she should follow his pathetic example and insist on only working for a guy with a seven inch **** in return huh! :rolleyes:

Betty Boop;1193172 wrote: Have I been transported backwards here, how utterly sexist!!

No, he should not be allowed to fire her purely because she does not conform to his pathetic ideals.

Maybe she should follow his pathetic example and insist on only working for a guy with a seven inch **** in return huh! :rolleyes: Make it 9 inches just to be sure :yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl

Kathy Ellen;1193171 wrote: It's funny though Kaz.....Men in my life and work really don't like a lot of makeup on women and don't understand why we use it. Even men in FG have questioned why women wear makeup....



But, when you go to a sports bar in some areas here, not my pub though, the women who work there have to dress sexy and wear makeup to enhance their look for the establishment.


i am constantly amazed at the difference in our countries,,, as we both speak english it lulls you into thinking thats not a foreign country to me ,,, but it is! and our country is a foreign country to you,,, and some of our dfferences are quite big ,, i remember the same sort of feeling when i was living on a nato camp in belgium for 3 years,, i got to know and become freinds with some Americans and we were always so amazed at how different we were to each other:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

nok;1193150 wrote: Ooooooohhhh, this is sad that it's the only reason why she got fired even though she's been faithful to this place for quite a while now..... but I agree with the others here. He's the owner so he gets to make the rules, whether they make sense or not.

I once got fired from a bank because I refused to be the manager's girlfriend ( he was married ).




:eek:..........been there also!:-5:-5:-5





Hi, great to see you back!:guitarist:guitarist





It's very true as some establishments do require certain dress codes, and its not against any laws to enforce them.

Owners have the right to make these decisions.

No, she should not have been fired for not wearing makeup. If she wears whatever uniform is required, what are they going to tell her next? She has to dye her hair, cut it a certain way?

chonsigirl;1193182 wrote: No, she should not have been fired for not wearing makeup. If she wears whatever uniform is required, what are they going to tell her next? She has to dye her hair, cut it a certain way?


His establishment is a bar, so he wants her to look nice for his patrons.



-she did have a choice to wear make-up.

she was the only waitress that didn't wear make up there.

kazalala;1193176 wrote: i am constantly amazed at the difference in our countries,,, as we both speak english it lulls you into thinking thats not a foreign country to me ,,, but it is! and our country is a foreign country to you,,, and some of our dfferences are quite big ,, i remember the same sort of feeling when i was living on a nato camp in belgium for 3 years,, i got to know and become freinds with some Americans and we were always so amazed at how different we were to each other:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl


Hi Kaz, don't the owners of establishments in the UK have the right to fire people if they don't follow the rules. Then that person has to decide to follow the rules or look for other employment.



Perhaps I'm not making myself clear here. I'm not saying that all sports bars in my area are like this, but some especially ones in the bigger cities are. These places are not unionized and the owner has the right to set rules even those rules that are ridiculous. Of course it's sexist, and I wouldn't work there.



I personally wouldn't work in a place that monitered my every move as to how I dressed. I dress and act appropriately to keep my job. But, I do have a union that protects me.

Kathy Ellen;1193189 wrote: Hi Kaz, don't the owners of establishments in the UK have the right to fire people if they don't follow the rules. Then that person has to decide to follow the rules or look for other employment.



Perhaps I'm not making myself clear here. I'm not saying that all sports bars in my area are like this, but some especially ones in the bigger cities are. These places are not unionized and the owner has the right to set rules even those rules that are ridiculous. Of course it's sexist, and I wouldn't work there.



I personally wouldn't work in a place that monitered my every move as to how I dressed. I dress and act appropriately to keep my job. But, I do have a union that protects me.


oh of course i understand,, dress codes etc uniform etc.. i suppose it just a personal choice.

now hmmm the owners of establishments in the uk.. well there are rules to follow inany work place,, but it is soooo very hard to fire anyone in the uk now Kathy. If you were going for an interview for a job and knew beforehand what was required then changed your mind once employed ,, maybe but then again,, here.. he would probs not be allowed to state prospective employees have to wear make up as then he would be discriminating against men applying for the job ,,and i dont think they are allowed to do that here:-3

also ,, sorry if i didnt express myself properly before Kathy ,, i didnt mean anything negative by it:-4

kazalala;1193198 wrote: oh of course i understand,, dress codes etc uniform etc.. i suppose it just a personal choice.

now hmmm the owners of establishments in the uk.. well there are rules to follow inany work place,, but it is soooo very hard to fire anyone in the uk now Kathy. If you were going for an interview for a job and knew beforehand what was required then changed your mind once employed ,, maybe but then again,, here.. he would probs not be allowed to state prospective employees have to wear make up as then he would be discriminating against men applying for the job ,,and i dont think they are allowed to do that here:-3



also ,, sorry if i didnt express myself properly before Kathy ,, i didnt mean anything negative by it:-4


Oh, my friend Kaz:-4 I know that. It's just sometimes I don't understand why some UK'er feel that they're so different for us Yanks. Sure, we have different customs and quirks but I don't see so much difference except in our government. Maybe I'm wearing rose colored glasses:wah:

Kathy Ellen;1193201 wrote: Oh, my friend Kaz:-4 I know that. It's just sometimes I don't understand why some UK'er feel that they're so different for us Yanks. Sure, we have different customs and quirks but I don't see so much difference except in our government. Maybe I'm wearing rose colored glasses:wah:


:yh_rotflwell i dunno ,,, different dont mean badjust different:-6and not in all things,, but we just have different customs,,, way of thinking etc,,, i bet its the same for you just in dfferent parts of America its so huge!:wah: i like finding out stuff about different places and by the way ,, we do have sexist employers here that would love to be able to get away with stuff like that, and employers that would lovw to be able to fire people on a whim,,, they jsut don find it too easy to do that here now because of our laws protecting employees. Mind this has in my opinion caused more firms to employ people on a "trial basis" this gives them the option of letting them go after the trial period is over without too much of a fuss:sneaky:

kazalala;1193202 wrote: :yh_rotflwell i dunno ,,, different dont mean badjust different:-6and not in all things,, but we just have different customs,,, way of thinking etc,,, i bet its the same for you just in dfferent parts of America its so huge!:wah: i like finding out stuff about different places and by the way ,, we do have sexist employers here that would love to be able to get away with stuff like that, and employers that would lovw to be able to fire people on a whim,,, they jsut don find it too easy to do that here now because of our laws protecting employees. Mind this has in my opinion caused more firms to employ people on a "trial basis" this gives them the option of letting them go after the trial period is over without too much of a fuss:sneaky:


Thanks Kaz:-6 I agree with you. I find a lot of differences between the northern and southern states. In the north we run around frantically trying to get things done. In the south they are very layed back and take their time accomplishing things.



That's why I love to visit the southern states. I feel very relaxed there and may move south when I finally retire which is not for quite awhile now.

Odie;1193186 wrote: His establishment is a bar, so he wants her to look nice for his patrons.



-she did have a choice to wear make-up.

she was the only waitress that didn't wear make up there.


I don't see that as a problem. If the choice is hers to wear make-up or not, she can choose not to. And being the only one who didn't is just peer pressure.



If she has a case, I hope she sues him. Unless wearing make-up is specified as terms of her employment, I think she will win. It depends on what the terms were when he took over the establishment, if things were to remain as is, she has grounds for suit.

I do not think wearing make-up should be a criteria for a workplace, but then, I do not know what they wear in bars since I do not go there, and am unlikely to.

chonsigirl;1193207 wrote: I don't see that as a problem. If the choice is hers to wear make-up or not, she can choose not to. And being the only one who didn't is just peer pressure.



If she has a case, I hope she sues him. Unless wearing make-up is specified as terms of her employment, I think she will win. It depends on what the terms were when he took over the establishment, if things were to remain as is, she has grounds for suit.

I do not think wearing make-up should be a criteria for a workplace, but then, I do not know what they wear in bars since I do not go there, and am unlikely to.


- he did give her that choice.

and who knows, maybe his Establishment is high-class?

We have tons of really high-class bars here, they all serve appetizers and meals and and staff look highly professionally.....that makes a huge difference to their customers.



I friend and I, went to eat out last week at a half decent place, waitress had her hair in a ponytail, tied with an elastic band, no make-up, she looked dreadful......it just was not one bit appealing to us.



When I go out, whether its high class or McDonald's, all staff look fabulous, and I appreciate that as I am spending my money, and its an enjoyment to see staff looking their best.

we really don't know what she looked like, I've seen some women with their hair in a pony tail, no make-up and it looks dreadful, so who knows what she looks like?

If she sues him, it will cost her a fortune, and if she gets her job back, he will think of something to fire her.

Odie;1193236 wrote: - he did give her that choice.

and who knows, maybe his Establishment is high-class?

We have tons of really high-class bars here, they all serve appetizers and meals and and staff look highly professionally.....that makes a huge difference to their customers.



I friend and I, went to eat out last week at a half decent place, waitress had her hair in a ponytail, tied with an elastic band, no make-up, she looked dreadful......it just was not one bit appealing to us.



When I go out, whether its high class or McDonald's, all staff look fabulous, and I appreciate that as I am spending my money, and its an enjoyment to see staff looking their best.

we really don't know what she looked like, I've seen some women with their hair in a pony tail, no make-up and it looks dreadful, so who knows what she looks like?

If she sues him, it will cost her a fortune, and if she gets her job back, he will think of something to fire her.
I understand you want people who are serving you to look decent,,, but theres a difference between looking clean and smart, and looking slovenly and unkempt and it dont necceassarily have anything to do with make up.

A person could wear make up and still look a right mess:yh_rotflbut just because you are not wearing make up does not mean you look hideous!

Also by the OP i dont think she was given the choice to wear amke up or not.. she was told to wear make up and when she didnt want to she was fired.

He can fire her any time he wants.

Then she'll collect benefits and will be successful in suing him, unless he can demonstrate that busyboys and all other males in the front side of the establishment are also required to come in full makeup. That would include himself.



Otherwise, she'll end up owning the place... or at least he'll lose it fighting this in court.:-6

Kathy Ellen;1193201 wrote: Oh, my friend Kaz:-4 I know that. It's just sometimes I don't understand why some UK'er feel that they're so different for us Yanks. Sure, we have different customs and quirks but I don't see so much difference except in our government. Maybe I'm wearing rose colored glasses:wah:


Definitely you are wearing rose colored glasses. The English are uniquely isolated in their penchant for bizarre traditions, edible consumptions and general everyday comings and goings.

Example: They pilfer pies. Some odd embedded cultural significance is placed on the pilfering of pies of all sorts but minced meat is the prized pie. They pilfer from their neighbors, shopkeepers and bakers, pie street vendors. Take off the glasses Kath, theyre not normal like us.

I agree he will lose his business and she will own it. There are Labor Laws. This would have had to be a document sighed by all staff member in the employee hand book for it to even have a leg to stand on, and even then it would be difficult for the guy to win this case.

[QUOTE]He can fire her any time he wants.

Then she'll collect benefits and will be successful in suing him, unless he can demonstrate that busyboys and all other males in the front side of the establishment are also required to come in full makeup. That would include himself.

Otherwise, she'll end up owning the place... or at least he'll lose it fighting this in court.[/QUOTE]

She's been there five years and presumably doing a good job how does wearing make up make her a better worker? How about if he asked her to work topless? Be different perhaps if he was turning it in to a topless bar and bringing in a bunch of dolly birds and she didn't match the criteria or didn't want to work in such an establishment.

Unless she's a complete minger and looks really scruffy he's got bloody cheek. Most blokes won't even notice is she has make-up on or not anyway-they don't really worry about the detail.

In this country she would probably have good grounds for a tribunal hearing. Maybe she should claim it's against her religious beliefs that seems to scare everybody off.

kazalala;1193242 wrote: I understand you want people who are serving you to look decent,,, but theres a difference between looking clean and smart, and looking slovenly and unkempt and it dont necceassarily have anything to do with make up.

A person could wear make up and still look a right mess:yh_rotflbut just because you are not wearing make up does not mean you look hideous!

Also by the OP i dont think she was given the choice to wear amke up or not.. she was told to wear make up and when she didnt want to she was fired.


of course they can still look great, and we have no idea what she looks like.

He is allowed to fire her for anything.......its the law now here in Canada.

Employers do not need a reason anymore.

Odie;1193263 wrote: of course they can still look great, as I said though, we have no idea what she looks like.


thats true well in that case i think he has every right to ask her to make sure she looks smart clean and presentable,,, but just to say she must wear make up is'nt right imoi mean someone who isnt taking care of themselves and have some pride in their appearance, isnt going to change much by putting on some make up are they

kazalala;1193265 wrote: thats true well in that case i think he has every right to ask her to make sure she looks smart clean and presentable,,, but just to say she must wear make up is'nt right imoi mean someone who isnt taking care of themselves and have some pride in their appearance, isnt going to change much by putting on some make up are they


oh and I do agree, if she was a waitress there for that long, she was doing sometime right.

and just for the record........I despise laws like this!

ours changed just 5 years ago, I have been let go from 2 different jobs...with no explanation why!

You can't even ask, what did I do wrong?

employers just say, I can't discuss it!:-5:-5



One employer was an owner of a automobile dealership.....he fired me...and I had just had my 3 month review which was outstanding and had gotten a raise from my boss.

I stomped into the owners office and demanded fair treatment or else!

so he put down on my separation papers that I was layed off so I could collect UIC until I found a new job...if he had of put down that I was fired?

....I would have had no income......and I wasn't about to put up with his ****!:mad:



How rude and devastating to employees:-5

I hate employers, they can say what they want and when!:mad:

Your missing the point he can say all he want unless there is "Dress Code and Apperance" policy signed by employee's she doesn't have to do a thing. Even if it is in the "Employee Handbook" as a policy mandating the wearing of makeup would never be a part of such a policy as it has to apply to both men and women. He doesn't have a chance in court in my opinion. There are 7 labor law handbooks that employer's have to follow in the US and believe me you have to follow the laws.

CARLA;1193270 wrote: Your missing the point he can say all he want unless there is "Dress Code and Apperance" policy signed by employee's she doesn't have to do a thing. Even if it is in the "Employee Handbook" as a policy mandating the wearing of makeup would never be a part of such a policy as it has to apply to both men and women. He doesn't have a chance in court in my opinion.


well i think that would apply here carla, but i wasnt quite sure of laws in other countries:-3:)

that bar would not have employee handbooks that would state to wear make-up, if that was the case...then yes, she would have been fired.

and dress codes for both men and women are different.



-he is still the owner and he can do whatever he likes.

NO he can't as she is protected by the law. She will sue his sorry backside and own his business and become rich in the process.

His power trip will cost him everything that is what business owner like him need to understand. You can't push staff around or have your own agenda. When it comes to employees rights all owners better do their homework. Also all employee who feel the were wrongfully treated should file a complaint we have rights under the law.

[QUOTE]but he is still the owner and he can do whatever he likes.[/QUOTE]

CARLA;1193277 wrote: NO he can't as she is protected by the law. She will sue his sorry backside and own his business and become rich in the process.

His power trip will cost him everything that is what business owner like him need to understand. You can't push staff around or have your own agenda. When it comes to employees rights all owners better do their homework. Also all employee who feel the were wrongfully treated should file a complaint we have rights under the law.


He's not on a power trip, he just wants his waitress's dressed a certain way.

Would this man have expected a male employee to wear make up? NO in fact I bet he would have asked a male to remove his makeup.

I worked in a store where some of the male members of staff were bald..when I was ill my hair started to fall out and one of these managers approached me and 'suggested' that if it got any worse I might like to consider a wig..

So I went to the local fancy dress hire shop and got a candy floss pink wig and took it to work. I approached the manager and producing the wig asked him 'shall I start wearing it today'?

After he recovered from the shock I was told the wig would not be necessary!

Like I said a "Dress Code" is one thing mandating staff to wear makeup is another thing. If it wasn't covered in the dress code he is out of luck. If it was covered in the dress code he will most likey lose the case. Yes staff should look presentable and uniform if required. The wearing of makeup is his personal desire and will be seen as prejudice.

[QUOTE]He's not on a power trip, he just wants his waitress's dressed a certain way.[/QUOTE]

Victoria;1193283 wrote: Would this man have expected a male employee to wear make up? NO in fact I bet he would have asked a male to remove his makeup.

I worked in a store where some of the male members of staff were bald..when I was ill my hair started to fall out and one of these managers approached me and 'suggested' that if it got any worse I might like to consider a wig..

So I went to the local fancy dress hire shop and got a candy floss pink wig and took it to work. I approached the manager and producing the wig asked him 'shall I start wearing it today'?

After he recovered from the shock I was told the wig would not be necessary!


bravo!!!:D