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It might be more productive in eliciting replies if you tell us about your beliefs. This almost feels like a test.

I am considered a pagan by others but wouldn't really call myself one.

if not for the pagans, there would be no christmas or easter. nobody knows when Jesus. H. Christ was born or died, not to the day. christmas is merely the pagan rituals and celebration of the winter solstice adopted out of expediency, and easter is the merely the vernal equinox celebration.

Pagans, there are loads of them in Ireland

Still waiting for your take on pagaism?

Which form do you do you prescribe to? There are many.

Maybe he only comes out at nite????

I've known a number of Wiccans. Never got into it because I abhor ritual. Generally really nice people but often obsessed with love spells, which is never a good idea.

koan wrote: I've known a number of Wiccans. Never got into it because I abhor ritual. Generally really nice people but often obsessed with love spells, which is never a good idea.I worked with a gal that was one of the nicest people in the world.

People called her "Witchy Poo".

I never put the 2 together for the longest time.



We worked together alot in the same dept. I was a maint. tech and she was a welder.......

ya never know.

And I think that is how it should be.

anastrophe wrote: if not for the pagans, there would be no christmas or easter. nobody knows when Jesus. H. Christ was born or died, not to the day. christmas is merely the pagan rituals and celebration of the winter solstice adopted out of expediency, and easter is the merely the vernal equinox celebration.Straight ahead, Paul! And easter is more than a marking of a solar cycle event. The first Sunday after the vernal equinox was the worship day of Ishtar, also called Ashteroth, Isis, Aphrodite (or was it Venus?). Ishtar was the Babylonian version of the Pagan fertility goddess. Ishtar is where the word "Easter" comes from. That's why Easter celebrations include bunnies (famed for fecundity), eggs (symbol of fertility) and other fertility fetishes. Christmas and Easter are only the tip of the iceberg of pagan customs imported into Christianity by the church of the west.

The gripe I have with Paganism is that in my faith, Christianity, Paganism has been brought in by force, so that today, mainstream Christianity is so polluted that it has mostly lost it's purpose. What is more, the branch of Christianity which brought in all this Paganism wants to rule over the whole Church and force everyone to think and worship as they do (which I do not) and be under the kingly authority of their leader. I have a problem with that.

Soooo...paganism is just a religion that does not believe in Christ, right? It's still a religion, though, isn't it? I knew a family of Wiccans. Kinda strange, but seemed harmless enough.

I live and let live. If that's your thing go for it, but of course being a Christian, I believe that you'll go to Hell.

Jesus' final night with his desciples was a Passover observance, which He told them to repeat each year ''till He comes'' (1 Corinthians 11-26) Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna in the mid-century, testified that the Apostle John had taught him to commemorate Christ's sacrifice through the annual Passover service. But within a generation of John's death, some had begun to oppose this apostolic practice.Eventually, as more and more leaders around the Roman Empire found it convenient to profess ''Christianity'', they found it increasingly desirable to purge their ''Christianity'' of its authentic Passover heritage and substitute an Easter Sunday observance.

I've known a couple of Shamans, too. Very earthy and into sweating. heehee. They were also quite wonderful people. One was the only person on a film set who didn't lose his temper with the obnoxious director. It drove her nuts. She couldn't get him ruffled.

capt_buzzard wrote: Jesus' final night with his desciples was a Passover observance, which He told them to repeat each year ''till He comes'' (1 Corinthians 11-26) Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna in the mid-century, testified that the Apostle John had taught him to commemorate Christ's sacrifice through the annual Passover service. But within a generation of John's death, some had begun to oppose this apostolic practice.Eventually, as more and more leaders around the Roman Empire found it convenient to profess ''Christianity'', they found it increasingly desirable to purge their ''Christianity'' of its authentic Passover heritage and substitute an Easter Sunday observance.
I ended up in an Easter Sunday service yesterday. It had been a while. I was stunned by the lack of significance when compared to celebrating Chist in the Passover. Paganism has watered down the Christian experience.

Clint wrote: I ended up in an Easter Sunday service yesterday. It had been a while. I was stunned by the lack of significance when compared to celebrating Chist in the Passover. Paganism has watered down the Christian experience.
Wot? Easter isn't about chocolate bunnies!

Pagan4life wrote: I pissed ( ) about no one really knowing about paganism and yet they go ahead anyways and judge them! It makes me so sad not many people keep and open mind! :-1Its driving me insaine! :driving:Tell me, are you pagan or not, how do you feel about paganism in its entirety?



:-Pagan4lifeWonder where Pagan4life is?

I think we have been very civil.........



:-2

BTS wrote: Wonder where Pagan4life is?

I think we have been very civil.........



:-2
Maybe he'll be back? Maybe he didn't expect this kind of reception.

Kens, he was online today and his profile said he was replying to this thread, but then i guess he changed his mind.

lady cop wrote: Kens, he was online today and his profile said he was replying to this thread, but then i guess he changed his mind.
Maybe he's doing more research?

kensloft wrote: Maybe he's doing more research?
Maybe he's "pagan 4 lives" and he belongs to three other forums that are more interesting? Nah. Couldn't be.

koan wrote: Maybe he's "pagan 4 lives" and he belongs to three other forums that are more interesting? Nah. Couldn't be.
Are you sure he doesn't belong to the Pagan Indian tribe at the number 4 reserve?

That statement makes no sense to me either.

Shalom

Ted :-6

If someone feels the absolute need to 'worship' something Paganism would be one of the least destructive avenues to do so, and sound hip and different to boot. I've known a couple people involved in it and they both have retreated into a bizarre little world where the outside world is kept at a distance. In my view anyone that requires a religion to feel whole or fulfilled is weak in most ways. It is much harder to face the world as is and challenge the ideas of those that oppose you than it would be to wear a hip Pagan shirt and get attention by announcing your oh so differentness. Just my opinion.

David813 wrote: If someone feels the absolute need to 'worship' something Paganism would be one of the least destructive avenues to do so, and sound hip and different to boot. I've known a couple people involved in it and they both have retreated into a bizarre little world where the outside world is kept at a distance. In my view anyone that requires a religion to feel whole or fulfilled is weak in most ways. It is much harder to face the world as is and challenge the ideas of those that oppose you than it would be to wear a hip Pagan shirt and get attention by announcing your oh so differentness. Just my opinion.


I don't for one moment believe that the need for a religious faith whether Christian or otherwise is a weakness. Down through the millenia religious faith has helped millions get through some very rough times that they may not have otherwise survived.

Try telling your 85 year old grandmother who is on her death bed that her faith is nonsense. Try telling a 25 year old who is terminally ill that her faith is useless. To deprive these people of some form of comfort in their last days would be unconscionable and disgraceful. It is easy to criticize when looking down at the bed but another thing to be laying there waiting for the inevitable.

Personally I feel that a religious faith does not show weakness. Take a look at what many of the martyrs had to put up with before their deaths. They showed far more strength then most others will show in a lifetime.

Shalom

Ted

:-6

Ted in my view religion has done mankind no favors. I don't fear death, which is the platform most religions are birthed. Sure I'll try not to fall off a cliff and you can bet I'll run if Freddie comes after me but if I am to die next week or over several years I'm not afraid! Because I don't believe anything lies ahead of us after we draw our last breath. Fear is a powerful human emotion and it has been used against man in the form of religion. An exception could be the nature based faiths and Buddhism.

David813 :-6

You are correct that many crimes have been committed in the name of God.

However, lets look at some of the positive things that the church or a religious faith has done. The early church began and promoted education and universities. It was the church that made possible the advanced social patterns in early Europe and promoted the renaissance in many ways.

Many churches today demand that their clergy have university degrees and some advanced studies. The churches run soup kitchens and shelter for the homeless. They are there when one needs some help such as birth, weddings, buriels. They are there when folks for whatever reason need counselling (most clergy have excellent counsellor training. The churches are there when norther communities have fires etc. and supply both clothing and food as well as shelter. The "African Technical Survey" is a church supported organization that works in Africa to build and systems that bring fresh water to villages that need it, no demands made in terms of faith. The churches try to help drug addicts kick the habit and act as a shelter for runaway kids. The churches supply educational material for children in third world countries. They support recycling organizations and conservation organizations and youth centres. They help those who want help through the difficult death process whether family or victim. They offer hope whether material or spiritual where hope is needed. They supply drivers to get folks to and from their cancer treatments and their aids treatments. I could go on but I think you get the picture.

I don't see any atheistic organizations doing these things.

Churches today are, here in Canada at any rate, offering help and recompense for the errors of the past such as the residential schools issue. They are taking positive steps to make amends for past errors.

But if it is your view that they serve no useful purpose that is a view that you are entitled to. However, the facts don't support your contention.

Shalom

Ted :-6

I think the bad greatly outweighs the good. If I had more time I'd go into it but for all the good some churches /synagogues/mosques do the playing field is nowhere near level. Add up all the people killed in history in religious inspired war and conflict and the relative few that get free biscuits and holiday meals, the sum still adds up with religion having alot to answer for and no one has.

David813 :-6

Unfortunately it can't be done as you would do it. It would be like comparing apples to oranges etc. Each era in history to say nothing about pre-history, had its culture, its belief systems, its fund of background knowledge, its own particular preceeding causal events, its own developed ability at conceptualization, its own understanding of the world and its own understandings of meanings and purposes.

The only thing such a project would display is the development of man and his various religious faiths. It would show the progress of lack thereof between certain periods of history. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to compare say Moses to John Paul II. To what end?

Such a study would require an intensive review of history both secular and sacred including each of the above mentioned factors as well as the archaeological findings of the past 100 or so years.. But anyway if you think such a project can be done and have any value go for it. It could even be worth a PhD. Who knows?

None of this is to ignore the errors of the past, which at the time may not have even been considered errors within the existing milieu. Anyway it is a complex issue and you are entitled to your opinion.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Ted wrote: David813 :-6

Unfortunately it can't be done as you would do it. It would be like comparing apples to oranges etc. Each era in history to say nothing about pre-history, had its culture, its belief systems, its fund of background knowledge, its own particular preceeding causal events, its own developed ability at conceptualization, its own understanding of the world and its own understandings of meanings and purposes.

The only thing such a project would display is the development of man and his various religious faiths. It would show the progress of lack thereof between certain periods of history. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to compare say Moses to John Paul II. To what end?

Such a study would require an intensive review of history both secular and sacred including each of the above mentioned factors as well as the archaeological findings of the past 100 or so years.. But anyway if you think such a project can be done and have any value go for it. It could even be worth a PhD. Who knows?

None of this is to ignore the errors of the past, which at the time may not have even been considered errors within the existing milieu. Anyway it is a complex issue and you are entitled to your opinion.

Shalom

Ted :-6
I'm leaving work in 30 minutes or I'd expand on this some but for what it's worth I admire your approach to the subject. I've battled the evangelical right for years and you display none of the arrogant aggressiveness worshipped by the Holy Wackos. I respect your opinions and must close for now.

David813 wrote: I'm leaving work in 30 minutes or I'd expand on this some but for what it's worth I admire your approach to the subject. I've battled the evangelical right for years and you display none of the arrogant aggressiveness worshipped by the Holy Wackos. I respect your opinions and must close for now.


I love Holy Whackos! Can you do that for us Ted? Even one post? It might be fun.

Okay. I'll do it. You are doomed to an eternity of misery. The fires will be stoked by your soul and your mind will be scorched by the heat of God's fury in the hell that was created for people just like you. :-6

David813 :-6

As a Christian pluralist I cannot close my eyes to the truths of the past. Just as I cannot close my eyes to the truths presented in the Bible.

It is so easy to judge from the future. Hindsight is 20/20, The trouble is it must take into account the context of the issue at the time.

Koan :-6

I could but I don't believe in behaving that way. I do on occasion watch the TV evangelists for the fun of it. I get a good laugh out of some of them even though in reality it is sad.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Hmmm. Ted watches tv evangelists for fun. That's a little...odd. :wah:

Stop watching tv and get to deciphering those dead sea scrolls!

koan :-6

I awas actually invited to do that but chose a different path. Geza Vermes is the world's expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls.. I couln't come close.

Why not watch the TV evangelists (sometimes) for fun. Some of them are a real hoot: Earnest Ainsley, Ken Copland, Peter Popoff etc. It's a good comedy if one has studies religious issues intensively. Sad in a way due to the deception but that's life.

Shalom

Ted :-6

if you want a quick, cheap televangelist laugh, do a google on 'farting preacher'. first link will get you there.

anastrope :-6

I will look that up.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Ted wrote: koan :-6

I awas actually invited to do that but chose a different path. Geza Vermes is the world's expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls.. I couln't come close.

Why not watch the TV evangelists (sometimes) for fun. Some of them are a real hoot: Earnest Ainsley, Ken Copland, Peter Popoff etc. It's a good comedy if one has studies religious issues intensively. Sad in a way due to the deception but that's life.

Shalom

Ted :-6


I remembered you saying you had been asked to decipher the scrolls, that's why I mentioned it. I think I'll have to check out some of these evangelists. Could be another option to Comedy Central from the sounds of it.

koan :-6

Invited to work on it. But when I consider folks like Vermes they don't need the likes of me. I couldn't come close to that man. Wonderful and brilliant scholar. However that is all in the past now and I have been quite happy with the parth I have chosen

Yes by all means check out some of them. Some are a real hoot. The literalism is quite astonishing and unbelievable. Earnest Angely has quite a unique voice and preaching style. LOL



Shalom

Ted :-6

Pagan4life wrote: -New Research-

In my research I have discovered that christianity may have been a form of paganism worshiping the Lord/God in past times but eventually split off and turned into a religion all it's own. Look at all of the similaritys and tell me you couldn't possibly see it?

:guitarist Pagan4life(a.k.a. earth starmoon) :guitaristThere was more money to be made in Christianity

Incorrect, because natural population expansion by the minority groups you mention could actually result in their being a black Moslem president within 5 generations or so!

Pagan4life wrote: I agree with you and although its a tad irelivent look at the u.s.'s current situation, i dont think that a black person, a women or anyone but a christian and sometimes a catholic will ever get elected which I think is total BULL ****! yah hear that Bush and congress!
huh? there are, in fact, blacks, women, and non-christians in public office in the US. in congress and the senate. in fact - shockingly enough - there are black females in congress! and jews! oh my god, run for your life!

Pagan4life wrote: I pissed ( ) about no one really knowing about paganism and yet they go ahead anyways and judge them! It makes me so sad not many people keep and open mind! :-1Its driving me insaine! :driving:Tell me, are you pagan or not, how do you feel about paganism in its entirety?



:guitarist:-Pagan4life
Relax--------People are prone to judge and make comments about many things they nothing about. Paganism is just another one of those things. No need to go insane about it. I know all about Paganism, it just does not interest me.

I really don't have a problem with paganism. Some may. Nor do I have a problem with Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism etc.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Ted wrote: I really don't have a problem with paganism. Some may.

Shalom

Ted :-6According to The bible. Pagans are countrymen, farmers rednecks :wah: