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Your sereouse about wanting to open this can of worms ?

Nah never mind , I had a bad moment better am better ow.

posted by scholle-kid

Your sereouse about wanting to open this can of worms ?

Nah never mind , I had a bad moment better am better ow.




Well yes, because he knows he'll get a good argument about it with people, who don't share his beliefs but who can argue about it without getting personal and abusive about it.

No one can explain why they believe in god, not in any way that makes sense. It is irrational you either believe it or you don't. That's why so many religious people get violent when someone questions their belief system and end up using violence to impose their belief system on others they can't understand someone who doesn't share their belief and are not tolerant enough or sure enough of their own faith to let others alone.

In the same way an atheist can't explain why they don't believe in god. you can't explain why you don't believe in something you don't believe exists.

It's a nonsense question why do you not believe in god? because I don't believe he exists. But why not? because he's not real. But why do you think he's not real? You're the one that claims he exists it's up to you to prove it. I don't need to prove it it's self evident. No it's not. You're non belief makes no sense.

Why do you believe in god?, because I do, But why do you believe in god? because I do he always has been and always has been- but that doesn't make any sense- it does to me I have faith, but you can't prove god exists, you can't prove he doesn't. But your belief makes no sense.

All you can do is agree to disagree, respect each other, and live in peace.

posted by jester

I am going to try as much as I can not get biblically dogmatic and argue any specific point, I am more curious as to what people think about the question than I am to pursuede anyone to my way of thinking on the matter.


If you don't believe the bible is the word of god then someone quoting it as an authority is meaningless and has no impact. I was once punched by a devout christian who kept quoting the King James authorised version as if it was somehow authoritative. I made the mistake of pointing out that King James was a gay scotsman whose native dress was a skirt. No sense of humour some people:-3

oh Jester, this is a hard one darlin! :-6

lets see! i believe in God because i look around this planet at the amazing things that have been created here and i think to myself, there is no way all this happened by accident! i look at things that occur in peoples lives and i think, thats happening for a reason, there has to be some kind of intellegence behind all of this!

i believe in God mostly because when i talk to Him, and i do pray about things quite often, i get a real sense of peace.

but mostly i believe because of my little Jacob, as someone who basically had no chance of being a mom, and after lots and lots of praying over the matter, i suddenly am one, is nothing short of a miracle!

but theres no way to explain this feeling to someone else, not really, either you have faith or you don't, all i know is my faith gives me such a feeling of comfort.

i just try to live my life as an example and other can see what a positive affect my faith has on me, i'm a very positive, glass half full kind of person because of it.

Good subject for this time of year IMO.

Well what do I think.....no not think I know and that is because I have had some "outside" help in my life even to the point of at least twice saving my life.Infact once being told by a burly policeman that "someone up there is looking after you madam as Ive been doing this stretch of road for 20 years and have never seen anything like this before".Meaning the M6 and the bad accident I had and the car a total write off and yet me and the people in it and 4 Dogs walked away without a scratch and some other facts also.The other time was a bad fire I had at home .....but enough about all that.The point is what do I believe and that is I dont know who it is but I have some "higher" power that has helped me get through so so much in my life.I also had a certain time in my life where every day was so black....yes indeed I was in that black tunnel and no light at all.Then if you like....and this sounds so corny but is the only way I can describe it.....I felt a presence that was just pure love.I cannot believe that even now when I think about that time it brings tears to my eyes....but they are tears of love.This love was so powerful...more then any human love and seemed to guide me through so much and also gave me so much.It gave me the gift to write poetry and have a couple in print.I was getting up all times in the night and the words came pouring out and I would sit for hours doing it and yet day would break and I had this incredible energy even though I had no sleep.The words of wisdom I wrote ...words of love....words that just fell into rhyme and yet upto that point I had never been into poetry at all in any form.One thing I will say at this point is because I had no idea what was happening to me I did seek advice....one being a Vicar.I showed him my poems and his words shook me.He told me that he saw parts of the Bible in some of them........horror....shock...Carol did not do the Bible and had never picked one up never mind about write words from it.Alot went on during these times that I cannot put here as apart from the hard to believe factor

some things are just to personal.

To believe in something sometimes you have to go through such an experience that there is no doubt in your mind at all and people may mock....people may not believe you.....people may rubbish off that there is anything out there and why shouldn't they when you hear of what some have to suffer.....but the hard truth is they can call you a liar...they can poo poo off any of your beliefs but if YOU know....I mean REALLY know and have experienced something that will be with you forever .....well does it matter what others think .We all have a free will and we all are entitled to what we believe and as long as I know the truth about experiences I have had happen to me.......well thats all that matters.......so back to the question of Do I Believe in God.....I believe.....No I Know I have a Higher Power.I am not a Christian as I wasnt brought up to be one and yes I have my own thoughts about some things that I would not write here as Im not here to insult peoples beliefs....BUT if that Higher Power goes by the name of God well yes I do believe.

Carolly;1073832 wrote: Good subject for this time of year IMO.

Well what do I think.....no not think I know and that is because I have had some "outside" help in my life even to the point of at least twice saving my life.Infact once being told by a burly policeman that "someone up there is looking after you madam as Ive been doing this stretch of road for 20 years and have never seen anything like this before".Meaning the M6 and the bad accident I had and the car a total write off and yet me and the people in it and 4 Dogs walked away without a scratch and some other facts also.The other time was a bad fire I had at home .....but enough about all that.The point is what do I believe and that is I dont know who it is but I have some "higher" power that has helped me get through so so much in my life.I also had a certain time in my life where every day was so black....yes indeed I was in that black tunnel and no light at all.Then if you like....and this sounds so corny but is the only way I can describe it.....I felt a presence that was just pure love.I cannot believe that even now when I think about that time it brings tears to my eyes....but they are tears of love.This love was so powerful...more then any human love and seemed to guide me through so much and also gave me so much.It gave me the gift to write poetry and have a couple in print.I was getting up all times in the night and the words came pouring out and I would sit for hours doing it and yet day would break and I had this incredible energy even though I had no sleep.The words of wisdom I wrote ...words of love....words that just fell into rhyme and yet upto that point I had never been into poetry at all in any form.One thing I will say at this point is because I had no idea what was happening to me I did seek advice....one being a Vicar.I showed him my poems and his words shook me.He told me that he saw parts of the Bible in some of them........horror....shock...Carol did not do the Bible and had never picked one up never mind about write words from it.Alot went on during these times that I cannot put here as apart from the hard to believe factor

some things are just to personal.

To believe in something sometimes you have to go through such an experience that there is no doubt in your mind at all and people may mock....people may not believe you.....people may rubbish off that there is anything out there and why shouldn't they when you hear of what some have to suffer.....but the hard truth is they can call you a liar...they can poo poo off any of your beliefs but if YOU know....I mean REALLY know and have experienced something that will be with you forever .....well does it matter what others think .We all have a free will and we all are entitled to what we believe and as long as I know the truth about experiences I have had happen to me.......well thats all that matters.......so back to the question of Do I Believe in God.....I believe.....No I Know I have a Higher Power.I am not a Christian as I wasnt brought up to be one and yes I have my own thoughts about some things that I would not write here as Im not here to insult peoples beliefs....BUT if that Higher Power goes by the name of God well yes I do believe.


Carol that is beautiful darlin! and you are exactly right, once you have had an experience like that you know there has to be a higer power and thats a feeling that no one can take from you!

i've had someone watching over me my whole life too, my momma calls it my guardian angel, but whatever it is, it's a real comfort! :-4

Hope6;1073840 wrote: Carol that is beautiful darlin! and you are exactly right, once you have had an experience like that you know there has to be a higer power and thats a feeling that no one can take from you!

i've had someone watching over me my whole life too, my momma calls it my guardian angel, but whatever it is, it's a real comfort! :-4Exactly Hope and thats what is important.

I read your question Jester and I find it odd that some people are perplexed, almost as if they can’t believe that someone doesn’t believe in god. It’s really difficult for some people to realise this concept. I will try and answer your question but I i'm not good at explaining myself.

Just because some people don't believe in God, that doesn't mean that they are living their life a lie. There are so many different kinds of "religions" because everybody deserves the chance to pick the one that makes sense to them. Do you feel this is wrong?

My first defense to the question of why I don’t believe in god, lies within questions one must think about to understand my position. That question is “Why don’t you believe in RA? Why don’t you kneel east and pray to Allah? Why don’t you believe in Odin?

All in all it’s a pretty easy concept to see, look into your own beliefs, and ask your self “why don’t I believe in all the other gods? Maybe we absorb religion, that’s native to our region? Could you say that if you we’re born in the middle east, and thought from birth that the Muslim faith was the one true faith would you believe in that? Or born hundreds of years ago with the Norse, would you have believed in Odin? Once you do a true examination of your beliefs, and why you can better understand my answer.

No body (and I mean everyone from every religion or faith) is better than any one else. We all have our own beliefs, that's what makes the world unique.

Let's not criticise any one for what they believe in, because everyone (I think) on here at least believes in the same core values...murder, rape, etc...see my point? Isn't it better to have a world where we all agree that these things are wrong then to have a world fighting over what "Being" we want to believe in?

Ah come on Jester, we ALL know everything is a big ol accident and there is no power that keeps nature in check. It is a accident that we set on our axis at the perfect degree to create gravity, magnetism etc....BIG ol accident. Another big ol accident is that no 2 things are identical such as fingerprints, snowflakes, voices, and many many other things.



Yes all these accidents are the very reason I believe that something is in control and that we have not even a clue to how powerful it is.

And I believe that it is a God of some sort, maybe not exactly like the bible lays it out.

AHHHMEN

What I find strange is, why would people the world over, believe in God or gods? From the earliest times to the present. From isolated tribes to great civilizations, people believed in some kind of supreme being or beings. What would give all mankind similar notions if there wasen't something to it?

I always thought that the best way ever described to me about our understanding of God and all was this: (using the term He & Him, not intending sexism, obviously it could just as easily be She & Her).

Within the womb of a pregnant woman is a child, growing and developing. Aware of his surrounding, he is comfortable in world; he is fed, kept warm and has a sense of love that is hard to explain in words.

There is no possible way that that child knows the world outside him or of the full love and relationship with the mother who is carrying him, nor could it be explained to him in a way that he could understand it.

The mother, has this child inside her, she carries him, cares for him as he is now part of her. Even so, there is no way this mother can explain to the child the world that awaits him, express the love she has for him, or make him understand the ways of life.

The child will need to be born into the world to learn this, and in time this is what happens.

The same is our relationship with God, we can debate and think that we know all there is to know, we can convince ourselves through Bibles and Koran’s that we have all the answers, and actually believe that we know what God is to the point where we start convincing others that we do. To the point, where some will even fight and die believing that they understand it all and will try to convince others, but until the time comes that we are born into our new world, we could not even begin to understand even the smallest part of the vast universe in which we are part of. In our current existence, God could not even begin to explain it to us.

All arguments, beliefs, wars, segregation, religious orders, will fade in their insignificance when they realize how small they thought. Just as when the child is born, it only begins to learn of all great things of this world, so we will only begin to learn when we go to the next.

hoppy;1073913 wrote: What I find strange is, why would people the world over, believe in God or gods? From the earliest times to the present. From isolated tribes to great civilizations, people believed in some kind of supreme being or beings. What would give all mankind similar notions if there wasen't something to it?


If you don't understand why the sun rises then until you do you explain it by magic, the first gods worshipped was often the sun since so much depended on him getting up in the morning. thunder was the sound of the gods being angry or having a fight.

posted by BTS

Ah come on Jester, we ALL know everything is a big ol accident and there is no power that keeps nature in check. It is a accident that we set on our axis at the perfect degree to create gravity, magnetism etc....BIG ol accident. Another big ol accident is that no 2 things are identical such as fingerprints, snowflakes, voices, and many many other things.

Yes all these accidents are the very reason I believe that something is in control and that we have not even a clue to how powerful it is.

And I believe that it is a God of some sort, maybe not exactly like the bible lays it out.

AHHHMEN


Choosing to believe it is all an accident is no different from believing there is some kind of supreme being in charge of it all, you just can't know. The bible creation myths are just that-made up stories to explain where we all came from. If you choose to believe that you were chucked out of paradise because of a talking snake and an apple you have every right to do so. Just don't complain when people don't take your beliefs seriously.

When I was 8 years old, I was adopted by my grandparents. Not only did I assume my grandfather's surname, but my middle name was changed also. My new Mum and Dad had me christened at the local Church of England.

[Just a little aside here. This church sent me a birthday card and a Christmas card every year until I was 29 years old. Why 29 years old? The first birthday card I received from them was for a 1 year old. I was actually 9.]

Anyway, my new Godparents bought me a copy of the Holy Bible (KJV). I still have it even now. Now, at the age of 8, I was always interested in how things worked or why things worked. After Mum got sick and tired of my questions, I started using the library and became an avid reader. I finally got round to reading my bible

The concept of God fascinated me. Naturally, I wanted to find out more. But, despite what it said in the bible, I did not find God in any of the churches. But, there again, I didn't find God in a blade of grass neither.

I wanted to believe that God existed, but I simply couldn't get any proof. Nonetheless, although I gave up the task then as one I couldn't achieve, the stories of the bible continued to fascinate me. Likewise, the more I learnt about life, the more I wondered at it.

In the end, however, my pursuit into understanding particle physics and quantum theories plus my experiments with visualisation and other spiritual matters opened up a brand new possibility for understanding the concept of God and realising why I couldn't get any proof.

Everything in this life consists of a bundle of tiny particles and in the spaces between these particles are various energies that are created by and act upon these particles. Nothing is as solid as we like to think it is. Fortunately, we have been given the ability to make some sense of the world around us. And a fascinating world it is too. It's very existence is a miracle to me, yet I can better conceive infinity than I could imagine absolutely nothing at all.

Consider your self then. We are also made up of particles and so are our thoughts. It has been shown that when we think, there is a higher amount of electrical activity in the part of the brain being used. Electricity is nothing more than the flow of particles.

It is also known that a particle is affected by the seemingly simple act of observing it. What then would happen if we think 'at it'? There is already a thesis that goes some way to explaining the way we can influence an object at this level. This is the basis of visualisation.

It is said that God exists in everything. Indeed, I can easily imagine the various forces, i.e gravity, electromagnetism, and the nuclear forces, as the Spirit of God, in a manner of speaking.

However, over the centuries, we have reduced as much of life as possible to its logical conclusion. Imagine, then, the power of our minds before we did this. Imagine the world when 'magic' filled the air. Anything was possible. Magic would have worked. Of course, there are limitations. A group of people would have to do more than just sit and visualise, say, the movement of the moon to another planet. Which is probably just as well. But scepticism creates an obstacle to visualisation. Visualisation does not work well if you don't believe it. It can work though, and my first experiment, conducted in a slightly sceptical but hopeful frame of mind, was achieved. It just took a lot longer.

So, how does my idea of God fit into all this? In my mind, God is the product of our beliefs, our thoughts, the energies that exist between the particles being the medium by which our beliefs and thoughts are transmitted. Any thing with the ability to react to its environment has at least some small impact on the whole and ultimately, on God (who is said to take care of all His creatures).

Now, of course, there is a problem here as we reach the chicken and the egg situation. But, this is why it is so important to at least try and understand infinity even if it cannot easily be conceived. After all, there is so much we don't know. Is the universe we know the only one? Are there others which, together, form a multiverse? It doesn't matter. Infinity has to be considered in terms of time as well. If there really was a beginning to all things, that is, if there really was a time when there was absolutely nothing, then there is a problem with what I have put here. Again, I cannot conceive absolutely nothing and I cannot perceive how anything can come out of nothing.

To me then, God is everything. God’s Spirit is the energy that exists within everything. God, being everything, is demonstrative. However, because we have the power to influence our environment, God is also responsive.

This then, for me, is why it is so important to give out positive compassion rather than negative hatred. Especially as it feeds back to ourselves in the end.

gmc;1073811 wrote:



If you don't believe the bible is the word of god then someone quoting it as an authority is meaningless and has no impact. I was once punched by a devout christian who kept quoting the King James authorised version as if it was somehow authoritative. I made the mistake of pointing out that King James was a gay scotsman whose native dress was a skirt. No sense of humour some people:-3


Bolded text,,



Yes I have been popped by a very devout Christian soul once , I had ask her politely to "please let's not go there" 2 times and on the third time she was almost in my face with her book and loud voice when I gave her mu view on the whole virgin birth by proxie tale , and whamo she let fly a pretty darn good left hook right up side my head. I excorted her to my door pushed though it and locked her out. Some people just can't see past their own nose when pure and simple logic is applied to their belief system.

It takes faith to believe in God, a kind of faith that I just do not have. It takes faith to believe in original sin, the immaculate conception, creation as defined in the bible, Adam & Eve, the miracles, resurrection. It takes considerable faith for followers of other religions to believe in the tenets of their faith as well. All religions have that one thing in common, faith.

Why don't I have that kind of faith----------LOGIC. As Spoc from the "Star Treck" show would say "It's just not logical".

Jester;1073767 wrote: I realize this is a religious question -stop- maybe it might be better to say a 'spiritual' question but I'd like to ask anyone that has an opinon and discuss it in a general religious/spiritual or non religious/non spiritual way. So I posted it here.

If you believe in God why do you believe in God?

And I'll throw it open to the opposite question for anyone who cares to discuss it as well.

Let the thread morph, open discussion please.

I am going to try as much as I can not get biblically dogmatic and argue any specific point, I am more curious as to what people think about the question than I am to pursuede anyone to my way of thinking on the matter.

And Im sure folks will want me to define 'God', so for the purpose of this discussion I define God as the 'creator of all things'. (if you have a different definition please state what it is your defining God as in your reply).

Thanks and lets have fun hey?I believe in God because I have a relationship with him and he talks to me and i talk to him... It's hard to explain... but i know he's real, through and through he proves himself to me.

Jester;1074037 wrote: Thank you Hope, you know God by experience. My personal belif is that we all have faith to start with, but for hatever reason some of us grow our faith, and others don't.


yes i do know God by experience, and thats really all anybody can go by isn't it?

we know what we have experienced and no one can tell us any different but on the other hand how do you explain something to someone who has never experienced it!

my faith grew out of times when i needed something so badly and i just prayed and prayed about things and they ended up working out in the end!

[quote=Chezzie;1073892]All in all it’s a pretty easy concept to see, look into your own beliefs, and ask your self “why don’t I believe in all the other gods? Maybe we absorb religion, that’s native to our region? Could you say that if you we’re born in the middle east, and thought from birth that the Muslim faith was the one true faith would you believe in that? Or born hundreds of years ago with the Norse, would you have believed in Odin? Once you do a true examination of your beliefs, and why you can better understand my answer.





I wish I had your way with words, if I did ,that poor woman would'nt have had a sore hand and the embarrassment of loosing her temper (when asked by different members of her church after the fact I was honest about why I would not be attending church) not to mention the ringing in my ears for a few minutes after I locked my door.

Jester! that is such an inspiring story!

thank you for sharing that! :-6

Originally Posted by Jester My wrath would never have been righteous without God.


I never have figuered out what makes some one who believes anger more righteous than anyone else'???



I have wittnessed the of miraclef birth, personally and as a helper to another woman giving birth. I have survived the greif of buring my grandparents ,my dad ,a brother and my 21 year old daughter.

Faith is a word I know. I have faith that the sun is going to come up in the East and go down in the West. I have faith that I will eat tomorrow because I worked today. And I also have faith that I will live till I die.

I was raised in different churches all though my growing up years, my dad had 6 different marriages between my birth and my 15 birthday, each one of them wives went to different churches. A couple were of the same denomination but said 'those people at that church don't do it right' not a direct quote ,just in context of the words each wife used.

When I got married and had the first of 3 kids I started going with my grandmother on dad's side, to a Christian faith church .(cause well you know that it is a responsibility of parents to make sure kids go to church)

Now my grandma and grandpa was the only thing that stood between a semi 'normal' childhood and a childhood of pure hell for myself and my two brothers. They were there on the mark after each divorce and never questioned if it was their job or their love for us 3 kids.

I really wanted my grandma to be proud of me as a parent to my kids ,to show her she was the only one to ever teach me how to be a person with any sense or the ability to be a responsible adult.

I had one on one bible studies with preacher wife who is a very devout women , I attended group women bible studies ,read the and got on my knees with a true intent to be open minded and with an open heart. I did all I was advised to do, but nothing ever came to me in any form or feeling except that I could be using my time to get someting done , house work , laundry ,,,etc.

And it never ceased to amaze me how grown mature adults that seemed capable of precessing thoughts and taking responsible action to make it in life could say and act like they truly bought into that book that defines that some 'being/god' acts and thinks and feels one way and almost in the next sentence says the complete opposite about that same 'being/god'.

And some of the stories about what and why this 'being/god' done things make the 'being/god' seem pretty darn human and really very petty and shallow to boot.

Some of the things told in that book about what this 'being'/god' put people though and some of the things said about what some people were told to do is just totally rediculouse .

Then add to the whole tale that the book was written years after any of the events happened, written by men who got the story from this being'/god' . I'm sure human nature is basically the same today as when these men were putting the book together . If someone was to take 10 or 100 or 1000 ' devout Christian' men and ask each one a specific question on what this 'being/god' message is on a subject you would get 10 or 100 or 1000 different answers .

Jester;1074030 wrote: I disagree there GM, the 'first' God and the first man fully understood each other, the worshipping of creation (like sun woshippers) by certain 'tribes' came after they rejected the one true God of heaven, after they had fallen in seperation from him.


I have a feeling we will disagree far more than we will agree on just about everything. Never mind.

That's your interpretation of it-the christian idea that all pagan religions are a fall from grace and people have to be brought back to the one true god, by force if necessary, for their own good. -adam and eve getting kicked out of paradise. It's an excuse for all the contempt and intolerance for other religions- or even ways of worshipping the same god- shown by many Christians throughout the centuries. My way is the only way and set fire to heretics along the way, for their own good of course.

Most primitive people tend to have animist beliefs or that gods are localised to that place spirits in the woods that kind of thing. If there are overgods they tend to be in conflict with lesser gods vying for power. river gods sea gods tree gods -ever feel te urge to throw a coin in to a stream or down a well? That's an old ingrained celtic habit propitiating the gods before you cross the river or loch. To the Greeks gods were fickle you could pray to them but they might choose to listen and took great delight in playing around with humans. Don't know enough about eastern religions to really comment but the japanese still have shinto alongside all the others. We go to graveyards to visit our ancestors which comment I bet some of you are disagreeing with. Monotheism came along later, islam, judaism and christianity are all desert religions which may go some way to explain the harshness of the older testaments.

Life was tough and capricious and a bad winter or an earthquake or famine could wipe you out. That's why gods were seen as capricious. It's the same reason the god of the old testament is such a fickle, vindictive being. The bible is both a history of a people and the attempt to explain what and why things were happening.

It was pagans that came up with concepts such a republics and democracy primitive tribes would elect the best leader and the idea of hereditary rule only comes in later and takes a real grip with monotheism. The roman god emperor didn't really work but claiming it was god's will and your authority came from god was a pretty smart move. hereditary monarchy became the norm only with monotheism Challenging god given authority was to go against god and it took us centuries and the breaking of the power of the church to get back to anything like egalitarianism.

from all things bright and beautiful

The rich man in his castle,

The poor man at his gate,

He made them, high or lowly,

And ordered their estate.


Subtle propaganda or what.

posted by jester

Some of you here have reacted to my stubborn faithfulness to Gods word over the past few days or months or from the old 'far'. I'm type A, Im a Bull. The world is a far better place with me a Christian than it ever would be with me ungodly and unchurched. My wrath would never have been righteous without God.

Today 01:30 AM


I don't mind it. It's a pleasure to be able to discourse with someone whose belief system is almost anathema to my own and who doesn't go away in a huff because people disagree. You learn nothing by only talking to those you agree with but a lot when you have to think about what and why you think what you think or believe. If that makes sense :-3

I've kind of gone the other way from you. The more I read and study the less and less I believe. I can understand the attraction of the teachings of Jesus christ but I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone still harks back to the old testament. If JC brought new teachings why do so many prefer the capricious, vindictive violence of the older version. Worse still if the words of JC are the words of god then surely they supercede the old testament. Tolerance and understnding is not something I associate with christians or any other religious groups come to that.

after they rejected the one true God of heaven, after they had fallen in seperation from him


Always comes down to that with belief. I am right you are wrong my way is the only way and god has nothing to do with any of it.

My wrath would never have been righteous without God.


Why not be a bit more tolerant? It's only your opinion that your wrath is righteous.:sneaky:

posted by scholle-Kid

Yes I have been popped by a very devout Christian soul once , I had ask her politely to "please let's not go there" 2 times and on the third time she was almost in my face with her book and loud voice when I gave her mu view on the whole virgin birth by proxie tale , and whamo she let fly a pretty darn good left hook right up side my head. I excorted her to my door pushed though it and locked her out. Some people just can't see past their own nose when pure and simple logic is applied to their belief system.

__________________


You never hear about atheists torturing religious people to get them to convert or setting fire to them as heretics for the god of their soul you need righteous anger for that.

posted by jester

God fickle? I don't get that impression. Vindictive? I see wrath, I certainly see punishment and chastisement but I don't see vindictive.


I said god was seen as fickle and is so in the old testament. Some of his punishments border on the vindictive. I know you might not agree but bear in mind I view god in the bible as being a fictional creation. We're not going to get very far discussing the true nature of god when you believe in him and I don't.

Vindictive is perhaps not quite the right word. Sadistic might be better. I was actually thinking of the trials of JOB when I wrote that. I remember being in sunday school, as a wee boy, we had been reading about it and the teacher asked what we thought and I said god was a rotten so and so to do that to a loyal follower and who would want to worship a god who did that kind of thing whatever his motives. Since she had asked what we thought and I was only expressing my opinion I didn't understand the reaction when I was called a cheeky wee so and so although the minister, in fairness, saw the funny side. I can almost trace the start of my disenchantment with religion back to that.

posted by jester

Did you decide yourself to be born in the UK? Or did I command I'd be born to my parents in the MidWest? Did you command only to be born to parents with a gross income of $20 or did you hold out for more? The circumstances of our birth are an unchangeable from God. You'd say 'just chance'. What happens after birth is free choice and the will of the person born. No onw has to stay where they are.


I was born lucky-you were born an american:yh_rotfl

If you had been born in saudi arabia you would probably be a muslim worrying about these deluded westerners and their strange god.

If god gave made us all and gave free will but knows what choices we make is it not part of his plan to have all these different religions? Either god made everything in which case who are you to question beliefs he has given to others-are they not as much true belief as yours since they come from the same source?

Jester;1074787 wrote: Sorry Schoelle, I did not mean I had a right to anger based on Gods directive I meant the opposite and did not make that clear. I explained it further at the bottom of my last post to GMC.




Thank you for clearing that up. There are more than a few christians that believe that because of thier 'belief' they are more righteous then other folks in every one of thier actions and whatever they say , anger being only one the things.

Further to what I posted here yesterday, I’d like to add a few more comments.

Firstly, the existence of life, to me, is a miracle. Though, I re-iterate that I find it harder to conceive nothing than to conceive infinity. Yet, there is much about life that we do not know. But we do know that life, or nature, has created a complex organism in men and women. we can shape our environment and imagine concepts that so not exist. However, we still cannot work out where it all came from and if we have a purpose and what that purpose would be.

To me, God is a concept that represents all those aspects of life that we don't understand within which we place ourselves as the most important species to God, as we are capable of so much more than any other species. Science, a word that means philosophy, over the centuries, has slowly shown many theological theories to be wrong. For instance, that our world is not the centre of the universe and there are other planets beyond the firmament, and that the planet is global rather than flat. For all of science's achievements, however, there is still much we don't understand and religion has admirably managed with these discoveries and adapted accordingly - up to a point.

Belief is a very personal matter. Each person has a different perspective of life developed from his/her experiences. Hence why there are so many branches of Judaism and Christianity. There is only one religion I am aware of that has the ability to encompass such a multiplicity of beliefs and that is Hinduism. Hinduism encompassed Christianity as simply another path. To early man, all life was mystery, magic, danger, and safety in numbers. Everything that had power over our lives became representative of a god.

Religions represent man's first attempt to make sense of the world and of life. I personally find it difficult to imagine how life appeared to early man. There is very little to compare between the wandering hunters and ourselves. But one thing did develop that still exists today - control over others. Religion provided the means for one man to control many. It became the justification to shed blood and many other atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion.

Over the centuries, some religions have died out, new ones have arisen, and others have changed to adapt with the times. Even the interpretation of the Bible presents a problem since words change their meaning over time. In many places, religion is still used to exert control over the masses. The problem with religion is its unspoken alliance with politics. Unless someone has grown up in complete isolation from the rest of humankind, we have all experienced religion one way or another. At its best, it represents a place where a community of people can come together, share, and help one another. But every religious community has a political undercurrent, the most obnoxious being excommunication.

God, for me, will remain a concept representing those aspects of life we don't understand. I was taught compassion and social etiquette without any need to attend a church. I can gain spiritual upliftment from the people around me or I can perform spiritual exercises.

posted by jester

No I don;t belive so, I sought the truth, and found it, the truth satisfies and a lie cannot, I am content and I was restless, a lie cannot give contentment, I am just brash and stubborn enough to seek what I lacked for as long and through as many obstacles as were present to rest in the True God of heaven. That wouldn't not have been in the muslum god.


Did you actively investigate all other belief systems or religions or just stick with the one you were familiar with? If there is only one god why does it matter how you worship?

Forget islam/christianity for a moment how about christian sectarianism-protestant/catholic?

Christians went to war over how to worship in a faith where they both believed in the same god and the same saviour but slaughtered each other over how to do it. OK there were political aspects to it as well but the hatred rumbles on. Until recently in northern ireland christian terrorist on both sides were blowing each other up I the name of religion. Catholics stay indoors while protestants celebrate victory in a three hundred year old battle. Round where I live orange marches are still a strong tradition, you can be talking to someone who is a rational thinking human being one minute and the next a bigot beyond any kind of reason. I don't know if you have that kind of sectarian hatred in the states, perhaps when wasps (white anglo saxon protestant) ruled the roost. The fact you even had such a term suggests you did.

Whose truth is right, catholic or protestant? Do Catholics go to heaven or are they doomed for their worship of idols?

Prayer, to me, is a form of visualisation (I mentioned visualisation in my first post on this thread). Prayer is made stronger by having more people say the same prayer together. It is also made stronger by the belief that the prayer will be answered and by supporting it with the appropriate emotions. The most important emotion for supporting prayers and visualisations is compassion.

My father had the simple, childlike faith in God that I always kind of envied. He believed because he believed.

For me, faith is hard. I do believe in God, in spite of the fact that I've been battered in my life, and seen too many others battered in ways that are just not consistent with any kind of loving God I can imagine. And yet I do believe. St Peter's prayer - Lord I believe, help my unbelief - always strikes a chord with me.

Spiritual feelings that God is close - yes, I've had them. Spiritual feelings that God is absent - I've had them too. I look at the world - and sure, I cant think it just got here by itself. The argument from First Cause I find compelling.

Much has been written on 'the problem of pain' - the existence of evil.. in a God who Christians see as All Powerful, All Knowing, All Loving. Looking at it another way, I am often surprised by the existence of Good, even Holiness which you get an occasional glimpse of. Humans are a species capable of enormous evil - but then sometimes you can feel something else - just a tiny glimpse of light which seems to transcend human base normality. A touch of God. What Christians call Grace.

An old man once told me that he saw God as the centre of a great wheel. And God was BIG, unspeakably/ unimagineably bigger than all our manmade ideas of God. He thought God had revealed (and continues to reveal) Himself in many ways, in many times, and humans had made their own interpretations, some maybe more sophisticated, some maybe a little bit more accurate.. but all still human interpretations of the Divine. He thought everyone started off with an unfulfilled bit in their psyche/spirit/mind/soul programmed to strive towards knowing God - and that in our own ways everyone does this. Some faster, some slower. Some well, some less well. Some dancing, some denying. Every human is on a spiritual journey. And we are all way down on the spokes of the wheel, and God is the centre. One God, not Ra, Allah, Yahweh etc. As we move closer to God, in our own strivings - he noted that we also move closer to each other. So a holy Hindu and a holy Muslim and a holy Christian and a holy Jew and a holy Australian Aboriginal are more like each other than a bunch of Christians fighting over whether the Virgin Mary stayed a virgin, or the date of Easter.

This analogy too, is a human interpretation, but it's closest to what I believe.

Jester;1077505 wrote: Prayer itself has no power, its the answer you get that demonstrates the power of it. If all there is to prayer is the point of asking then why bother? I mean if Im on one side of a door and I want in and I keep knocking and Im ignored and no one answers the door, whats the point in knocking? To hear myself knock?


How do you distinguish your prayer being answered from it just being a coincidence?